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A conversation With A Jehovah's Witness

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JB Horn:
Hello Dandi

 
--- Quote ---Please tell me if I am correct in my understanding of your beliefs or not.  It seems to me that you believe that Jesus should be worshipped and prayed to, that there is no higher personality in the universe than Jesus, that either you don't recognize Jehovah or that you feel that Jesus and Jehovah are equal in some way.  Please do correct me if I have misunderstood you.
--- End quote ---

Actually I claim there is only one God and He is in the form of the Trinity. You cannot have two fathers to Jesus, the Holy Ghost and the Father unless they are the same. Can you?


John 17:11 "I am no longer in the world ; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. (NAS)

Isaiah 9:6 For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. NWT (JW)


John 5:16-18 So on this account the Jews went persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things during Sabbath. 17 But he answered them: “My Father has kept working until now, and I keep working.” 18 On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God. (NWT)

I realize that you don't like to answer any questions I put to you which is typical for your cult. But here is two questions that should be easy for you to answer. In your belief system of multiple gods which God loves you more, the son or the father? Question number two is that if the sacrifice of one of God's creations (Christ) is sufficient to atone for your sins, why is not the sacrifice of a lamb which God also created sufficient?




--- Quote ---If Jesus is to be worshipped as the Sovereign of the universe, please explain 1 Corinthians 11:3 which says that God is the head of Christ Jesus.

--- End quote ---

The verse also says that "Christ is the head of every man",  So what is it is Christ ahead of or is the Father the head of every man?

Much earlier in the Bible God explains to us that man and wife should be considered one flesh, this is why it is dangerous to take Scriptures out of context.

Genesis 2:24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife ; and they shall become one flesh. (NAS )

John 14:13 "Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. (NAS) How could the work of one god, helping YOU, glorify the second god, unless of course they are one as Christ said.


--- Quote ---If Jesus is Almighty God to be worshipped, then why does he pray to someone he calls his Father, and why does he say that he does nothing of his own initiative?
--- End quote ---

Again I would take you back to John 1 And the Word became flesh. Paul speaks on this. Philippians 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,

God had to become both fully man and fully God to be worthy to atone for our sins. Verse seven says that he emptied himself for instance Christ tells us during the time he was on the earth in the form of man, he did not know the time that he would return for the rapture.

"But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of man." Philippians 2:7


--- Quote ---It is a serious matter, because if you are worshipping someone you should not be worshipping, then it means you are not worshipping the one you should be worshipping.  It could mean that a person's worship is in vain.
--- End quote ---

I couldn't agree with you more

Blessings
JB

admin:
JB you might want to discuss John 14:10

Bob:

Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith , And let all the angels of God worship him.

Seems real clear to me!

Dandi:
...  The trinity doctrine is very confusing to me, as it must be for others as well.  The Trinity doctrine includes the following ideas:
1)Three divine persons- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit- make up a Godhead

2)Each separate person is said to be eternal, none coming before or after the other [well, we know from previously quoted scripture here that Jesus did have a beginning and is called the firstborn son of God]

3)Each is said to be almighty, with none greater or lesser than the other [we know from previously quoted scripture that never is jesus called the almighty, and he recognized the superiority of his Father frequently]

4)Each is said to know all things [When Jesus' disciples asked him about when the conclusion of the system of things would take place, Jesus responded that he nor the angels knew, only the Father knew the exact time (Matthew 24:36)]

5)Each is said to be the true God [Jesus called his father the only true God at John 17:3]

6)Yet there are not three Gods, but only one God

    People should reason on these ideas and ask themselves:
1)Can I find any scripture that mentions "trinity"?
2)Can I find any scripture that says that God is made up of three distinct persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but that the three are only one God?
3)Can I find any scripture that says that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are equal in all ways?

  If you search the Bible, you won't find any scripture that uses the word trinity, or that says that the Father, Son, and holy spirit are equal in all ways.  The scriptures don't even say that the Son is equal to the Father.

  The New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Volume XIV, page 295 said :

"...When one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say, the last quadrant of the 4th century.  It was only then that what might be called the definitive Trinitarian dogma 'One God in three Persons' became thoroughly assimilated in Christian life and thought..."  (This means that the trinity doctrine was NOT AN ORIGINAL CHRISTIAN TEACHING.  It did not originate with Jesus.  Jesus did not teach it and neither did the first century Christians.)

The Encyclopedia of Religion, Mircea Eliade, editor in chief, 1987, Volume 15, page 54 says:

"Exegetes and theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity...  Although the Hebrew Bible depicts God as the father of Israel and employs personifications of God as Word (davas), Spirit (ruah), Wisdom (hokhmah), and Presence (shekhinah), it would go beyond the intention and spirit of the Old Testament to correlate these notions with later trinitarian doctrine.
"Further, exegetes and theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity.  God the Father is source of all that is (Pantokrator) and also the father of Jesus Christ.  Father is not a title for the first person of the Trinity but a synonym for God..."  (This encyclopedia, not published by Jehovah's Witnesses, acknowledge the UNSCRIPTURALNESS OF THE TRINITY DOCTRINE.
   
  The simple fact is that the trinity doctrine is not taught in the Bible.  It is a man made teaching, not a biblical teaching taught by Jesus.  Jehovah's Witnesses believe that beliefs should be based on the Bible and what Jesus taught because Jesus said at John 8:31, "If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples."

  You may feel that the Bible may not directly teach the trinity but implies it.  But careful examination of the scriptures in totality does not support the trinity doctrine.   And it would be good to ask: Why would the Bible only imply its most important teaching-who God is?  The Bible is clear on other basic teachings, why not on this, the most important one?  Of course, the reason the Bible does not clearly teach the Trinity doctrine is because IT SIMPLY IS NOT A BIBLE TEACHING.

  In the same verse that was quoted at John 17:11 about Jesus and his father being ONE, Jesus makes the request that his disciples be made one.  This being "one" is NOT talking about being one person.  Jesus was not praying for his disciples to be literally one person.  It is a figure of speech.  He wanted them to be UNITED, "ONE" IN PURPOSE AND ACTIVITY.  That is how Jesus and his father were one; THEY WERE "ONE" IN PURPOSE REGARDING THE SALVATION OF JESUS' TRUE FOLLOWERS.

JB Horn:
Hi again Dandi
First I would like to direct you to Law's previous post concerning the Trinity and the Savior.
http://biblediscussion.org/index.php/topic,30.msg70/topicseen.html#new

Now to your post.

Correct the word Trinity is not in the Bible the following are other words that the Bible does not use but the concepts are mentioned:
Omniscience
Omnipotence
Omnipresence
Atheism
Divinity
Incarnation
Monotheism
Rapture
In fact the word Bible is not in the Bible.

Now who has the greater love for you Jehovah or Jesus?
The New World Translation says, "No one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his soul in behalf of his friends." If they are ONE then this makes sense but if not you are in big trouble!


--- Quote from: Dandi ---The Bible is clear on other basic teachings, why not on this, the most important one?  Of course, the reason the Bible does not clearly teach the Trinity doctrine is because IT SIMPLY IS NOT A BIBLE TEACHING.
--- End quote ---

Is that Right?

Here are a few questions put together for you by Matt Slick

--- Quote ---The Watchtower organization states that through good works and sincere effort only 144,000 elite JW’s will go to heaven. The 144,000 are mentioned in two chapters in the Bible: Revelation 7 & 14. By looking at the verses it is obvious that the 144,000 are literal Jews of the ancient tribes with no Gentiles among them (7:4-8). They are all males (14:4) and virgins (14:4). If the JW states that the usage of Jewish male virgins is figurative, what gives them the right to state that number of 144,000 is literal?

Where does it teach in the Bible that Jesus is Michael the archangel?  Why isn't Jesus called Michael right now since he is in heaven?

The Watchtower organization states that Jesus died on a stake, not a cross. The typical Watchtower representation of this is with Jesus on a single vertical stake, hands over his head with a single nail in his wrists. If Jesus were crucified on a cross, then two nails would be necessary, one in each hand. How then does the Watchtower organization handle the verse in the Bible that states that Jesus had nails (plural) in his hands: "Consequently the other disciples would say to him: 'We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them: "unless I see in his hands the print of the nails and stick my finger into the print of the nails and stick my hand into his side, I will certainly not believe,'" (John 20:25, NWT). 
Jesus had one nail in each hand. This is made clear by the use of the word ‘nails’ not ‘nail.’ Jesus must have been crucified on a cross, and not a stake as the Watchtower organization teaches.  Why is it, then, that the Watchtower teaches something that is so clearly unbiblical?

Why does the NWT insert the word Jehovah in the New Testament when there are absolutely no Greek manuscripts that have it in there? Isn’t this playing with the text?




--- End quote ---

The Father commanded Six days may work be done, but on the seventh day is a sabbath of complete rest. It is something holy to Jehovah. Anyone doing work on the sabbath day will positively be put to death.(NWT) But Christ said, And he went on to say to them: “Lord of the sabbath is what the Son of man is.”
(NWT) So the question did Jesus keep the Jewish law or did He violate the Sabbath?


When Christ was on this earth He was fully man and fully God. He was the Creator of man and the Servant of man. The omnipresence and holiness of God makes God one. He is one God who is God the Father, the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Three persons but only one God.

Jehovah's Witness have played with the Scriptures to the point of jeopardizing their own salvation. There cannot be two Gods and there cannot be two Saviors.

In Christ
JB

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