AuthorTopic: The Promise of Baptism in the Holy Spirit  (Read 7934 times)

JB Horn

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The Promise of Baptism in the Holy Spirit
« on: July 16, 2010, 10:16:14 PM »


We have two instances in the Bible where believers were not baptized by the Holy Spirit and therefore their belief was invalid. In acts 8:9-25, we read the story of Simon the magician. The Bible tells us Simon did believe however he had not been baptized by the Holy Spirit and was not truly saved. Simon's belief was so strong that he actually fooled Philip. The other story was also from acts 19:1-7, where some disciples believed and experience the baptism of John the Baptist however they had never heard of the Holy Ghost. Now their are baptism of the Holy Ghost came with the laying on of hands from Paul, unlike those that received the Holy Ghost at Pentecost.

Both John the Baptist and Jesus made the promise of baptism of the Holy Ghost, but it is obvious that some can believe and still not receive the promise of that baptism. And if one does not receive that baptism is belief is not valid. At first look of this it appears confusing but when you consider that Satan himself believes as do all the fallen Angels by his side, it begins to make more sense.

Some of you are probably asking right now how can one know if he has received the Holy Spirit if someone that believes can be without the Holy Spirit.

If you look at the two instances where those that were described as believers were without the Spirit you see that they were either not aware of the existence of the Holy Ghost, or did not believe in the existence of the Holy Ghost. This is in-line with what both Jesus and Paul passed down to us:(John 14:17 ; Rom. 8:14) So I think this is really a moot question or an unneeded concern to those who believe in the Trinity and baptism in the name of the Father the Son and Holy Ghost.

Ask yourself this question would Christ promise something to those who believe in him and love him and seek his guidance and then not deliver on that promise?

JB

Proa42

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Re: The Promise of Baptism in the Holy Spirit
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2010, 04:48:43 PM »
During your discourse, you make a point that that there were two modes, if you will, of receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit -- As at Pentecost and by the "Laying on of Hands." You then leave off to go onto a discussion of false and true faith/belief, and just touch lightly on the how of Spirit Baptism.

If one were to accept your discussion of mode as complete, we then must conclude that someone in the Apostolic succession is required to validate our faith and complete our salvation/sealing by "The Laying on of Hands." (This plays well for the Apostolic Churches as they claim to be in succession ). 

Have you left us with an incomplete understanding of mode?
How does a non-apostolic believer receive the "Baptism"?
Do you see a difference, as some claim, between receiving the Spirit and being Baptized by the Spirit?

JB Horn

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Re: The Promise of Baptism in the Holy Spirit
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2010, 12:38:11 PM »
Hello Proa

We have at least two times in Acts that baptism by (with) the Holy Ghost was given without the laying on of hands. It's not necessary for man to be involved in you receiving His gifts.

JB

Proa42

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Re: The Promise of Baptism in the Holy Spirit
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2010, 01:08:58 PM »
The two non-hands-on events were "pentacostal style" with the attendant signs and stuff.

So which is the model we are to expect? Is there a third mode of transmittal?

JB Horn

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Re: The Promise of Baptism in the Holy Spirit
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2010, 07:17:22 PM »
John told us that Christ would do the baptising with with the Holy Spirit.


And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

So we know who the He is (Christ) all we have to do is figure out who the you is.
JB

Fat

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Re: The Promise of Baptism in the Holy Spirit
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2012, 09:25:00 PM »
FYI
General references
Isa 44:3 ; Joel 2:28-29 ; Zech 12:10 ; Matt 3:11 ; Mark 1:8 ; Luke 3:16 ; Matt 3:16 ; Luke 3:22 ; John 1:32-33 ; Luke 24:49 ; John 3:5 ; Acts 1:5 ; Acts 2:1-4 ; Acts 2:38 ; Acts 2:41 ; Acts 8:15-17 ; Acts 10:38 ; Acts 10:44-45 ; Acts 10:47 ; Acts 11:15-16 ; Acts 19:2 ; 1 Cor 12:13 ; Tit 3:5-6 ; 1 Pet 3:20-21

VCO

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Re: The Promise of Baptism in the Holy Spirit
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2012, 10:33:17 PM »
Okay JB, I am reasonably sure that you believe the Bible is inspired by GOD.  And GOD said:

Malachi 3:6 (NKJV) 6 "For I am the Lord, I do not change; . . . .

Therefore if we can find ONE clear example of how GOD saved one man, then we will know how HE saves all believers.

Romans 4:3 (KJV)
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

What then is the "Baptism (in?) the Holy Spirit" that you referred to?

Obviously the Chrismatic experiense was not the salvation that was counted unto Abraham for righteousness.

Acts 11:16 (GW)
16 I remembered that the Lord had said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized by the Holy Spirit.'

I know most versions say "with" and only the ASV that I found said "in", but I want to show you why "IN" the Holy Spirit, is very misleading.

What is the "spiritual baptism" that it talks about, and who is doing the baptizing to us, and what is He baptizing us into?

Romans 6:2-3 (ESV)
2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?
3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus  were baptized into his death?

1 Corinthians 12:13 (HCSB)
13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

THUS, "you will be baptized by the Holy Spirit."; is a more accurate rendering of what was being said there, that SQUARES with the rest of Scripture.

JB Horn

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Re: The Promise of Baptism in the Holy Spirit
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2012, 11:15:34 AM »
No one was baptized with the Holy Spirit until Christ left, He said I will send Him.

There were instances where the Holy Spirit came over people but that was not a baptism.

Being baptized by the Holy Spirit is part of your salvation it is a gift from God.


iPhone post :)

VCO

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Re: The Promise of Baptism in the Holy Spirit
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2012, 01:53:05 AM »
And we are "immersed" into the spiritual body of Christ.

JB Horn

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Re: The Promise of Baptism in the Holy Spirit
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2012, 11:59:29 AM »
You bet. Paul like to use the term 'dead in Christ' and I take that to mean that our souls have risen anew in Him as one.

VCO

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Re: The Promise of Baptism in the Holy Spirit
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2012, 12:43:48 PM »
More than our souls come alive at spiritual baptism, which is when the Holy Spirit immerses us into Christ.  Literally our human spirits come ALIVE for the very first time.  We are born at natural birth with our bodies and souls alive, but NOT our spirits.  Our spirits can only be born of the Holy Spirit.


John 3:3 & 5-7 (NKJV)
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

Ephesians 2:5 (NASB)
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 


JB Horn

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Re: The Promise of Baptism in the Holy Spirit
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2012, 03:35:59 PM »
More than our souls come alive at spiritual baptism, which is when the Holy Spirit immerses us into Christ.  Literally our human spirits come ALIVE for the very first time.  We are born at natural birth with our bodies and souls alive, but NOT our spirits.  Our spirits can only be born of the Holy Spirit.


John 3:3 & 5-7 (NKJV)
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

Ephesians 2:5 (NASB)
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

What is your definition of a dead spirit? Can a dead spirit be tormented for eternity? If one has no Spirit it can't be tormented in hell can it? Or is it the soul you believe goes to hell?
Have you heard of the term regeneration?

VCO

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Re: The Promise of Baptism in the Holy Spirit
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2012, 03:17:16 AM »
Oh yes, the spiritually dead spirit can be tormented for eternity in hell.

Just as the spiritually born again eternally alive spirit has a nature of always loving GOD, the spiritually dead spirit has a nature of always hating GOD.

Let me show you that concept in something that Jesus taught:

Matthew 8:11-12 (ESV)
11 I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven,
12 while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”


Matthew 22:13-14 (ESV)
13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”


Matthew 25:30 (ESV)
30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Luke 13:27-28 (ESV)
27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!’
28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out.


Matthew 13:49-50 (NKJV)
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,
50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."


Outer darkness is a term that symbolically represents Hades or Hell; while the term "gnashing of teeth" is symbolism for "BITTERNESS".  In particular it is eternal bitterness towards GOD.  There will be no repentance, or mourning over one's sinfulness in hell, only BITTERNESS towards GOD.  The term "gnashing of teeth" is in the Greek tense that implies an action that is always ongoing.

We know from Scripture the every human being is made up of three parts:

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (HCSB)
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely. And may your spirit, soul, and body be kept sound and blameless for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Zechariah 12:1 (HCSB)
1 An Oracle The word of the Lord concerning Israel. A declaration of the Lord, who stretched out the heavens, laid the foundation of the earth, and formed the spirit of man within him.

So the spirit of man is formed at natural birth, but it is spiritually dead in our trespasses, because of the inherited sin from Adam.  In other words it is not in tune with the will of GOD, nor is it loving GOD.  ONLY when the Holy Spirit has brought our spirit to eternal life, can our spirit be in tune with the will of GOD and truly loves GOD.  How then is the term spiritually "dead" applicable?  In the same way that faith can be dead:

James 2:26 (NKJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Many confuse soul and spirit as being the same thing, when Scripture clearly points out they are different, and the Word is sharper than a two edge sword able to divide soul and spirit.

My understanding of the three parts of a human being are:

body = the sum total of all the tangible cells.

soul = the sum total of all the intangible parts of the human psyche (thoughts, memories, emotions, feelings, cognative abilities, etc.)

spirit = the part of man continues on leaving the body upon death, going heaven if one is a believer or hades if one is not.

Interestingly, if you look up soul in the Greek you will find that the Greek word for it is psyche.

So how can we prove that it is spirit of the unbeliever that is tormented forever and ever in hades, and later in hell (the Lake of Fire)?

Matthew 10:28 (NKJV)
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The word "destroy" there does mean "to be totally consumed by" as it would be by fire; BUT NOTICE that HE did not say that about the spirit.

Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are.
And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20:15 (NKJV)
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 14:11 (NKJV)
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Matthew 25:41 (NASB)
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Matthew 25:46 (NASB)
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The way I have always taught it, the difference between believers and unbelievers is summed up this way:

Believers are those who want GOD to be part of their lives and they get their wish for ETERNITY, going to be with GOD, which is in heaven.

Unbelievers are those who do NOT want GOD to be part of their lives and they get their wish for ETERNITY, going to where GOD is not, which is in hell, also called the Lake of Fire.

JB Horn

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Re: The Promise of Baptism in the Holy Spirit
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2012, 12:29:11 PM »
Hi VCO.

Let's step back to your quote here for a second.

Quote
More than our souls come alive at spiritual baptism, which is when the Holy Spirit immerses us into Christ.  Literally our human spirits come ALIVE for the very first time.  We are born at natural birth with our bodies and souls alive, but NOT our spirits.  Our spirits can only be born of the Holy Spirit.

From what I read here you're claiming that man is born with no spirit.

If this case what does the phrase to be born again mean?

Isn't it true the Christian actually has two spirits? Rom 8:16  The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, (NAS) we have the spirit of the Lord and our own spirit which has been regenerated by the Holy Ghost.  Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,(NAS)

Quote from: Strong's Number:   3824
new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration
hence renovation, regeneration, the production of a new life consecrated to God, a radical change of mind for the better. The word often used to denote the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation, as a renewal or restoration of life after death

So it appears that man was in fact born with a spirit, which later upon becoming a Christian, is given a new life (consecrated to God).

And we are taught that even an unsaved person can have more than one spirit. Mark 1:23 Just then there was a man in their synagogue with an unclean spirit ; and he cried out,(NAS)

This is why I question you about a man not having a spirit until he receives his salvation.

So you say that "Our spirits can only be born of the Holy Spirit," and I am pointing out that our spirit is reborn by the work of the Holy Spirit

The spirit a man is born with is headed for eternal torment unless the Holy Spirit calls it to a new life in the new direction.

VCO

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Re: The Promise of Baptism in the Holy Spirit
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2012, 10:26:14 PM »
No, you misunderstood what I said.

The spirit of man is there in every human being at natural birth, it is born already dead:


Ephesians 2:4-5 (NIV)
4 But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.

Obviously our bodies were alive at natural birth and so was our soul, (pysche) in the Greek.  Therefore, the only part of us that WAS DEAD, but has been made alive by the Holy Spirit the moment we believed, as HE immersed our spirit into the spiritual body of Christ; is our human spirit.

Zechariah 12:1 (NKJV)
1 The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:

Psalms 139:13 (ESV)
13 For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb.

Therefore "born again" is the very moment the Holy Spirit brings our dead spirit to eternal life:

John 3:36 (ESV)
36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Why was it dead at natural birth?  Two reasons, the inherited sin nature from Adam and our own sins.

Natural birth gives life to our bodies and soul, BUT the spirit must be born again via the HOLY SPIRIT.

Yes the unbeliever has a dead human spirit in him, he can also be possessed by demonic spirits.  There were two demonically possessed men at Gadara, but some of the gospels only mention one because only one did all the talking.  Those demons in those two men were cast into 2000 pigs.  My math says then, that it is even possible for at least 1000 demons to possess one unbelieving man.

So how many demons can possess a genuine believer who has the Holy Spirit our comforter and teacher in him?

NONE!


1 John 4:4 (NKJV)
4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.

Yes the genuine believer has the omnipresent Holy Spirit in him and HE has caused our human spirit to be born again to eternal life.  Yes, prior to that our spiritual nature is to walk away from God.  Like I used to teach the inmates when I was a Volunteer Prison Chaplain, "If you do not want God to be part of your life, you will get your wish for eternity.  But the only place of total seperation from GOD, is in the Lake of Fire, which is also known as hell."

 

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