The Promise of Baptism in the Holy Spirit

[Fat]

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Romans 10:9  that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved ;


Acts 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved ?"31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

[VCO]

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Did the American Indians believe in salvation or have any conception that there could be salvation? That is the faith that saved Abraham it was not the fact that he believed that a creator.

1. If they were Jews then your statement would have some validity to it.

2. I don't know of any tribes that worship the great spirit as you put it, without first assigning that great spirit an object or animal that could be seen by them.

3. I do know of some present-day man that believes that the earth is in fact God. Or that God is in all things.

4. You seem to be saying that the American Indians did not need Christ blood for their salvation. If all they had to believe was that there was a creator then the Jews did not need Christ either.

5. The Muslims have a very strong faith in the creator as do many other religions.

Fat nailed it with Jhn 14:6. 

22 So Paul stood in the midst of the  Areopagus and said, "Men of  Athens, I observe that you are very  religious in all respects. 23 For while I was passing through and examining the  objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' Therefore what  you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. 24  The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is  Lord of heaven and earth, does not  dwell in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands,  as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;

2 Corinthians 5:19 (NASB)
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 (NASB)
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Romans 5:12-13 (NASB)
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Romans 4:3 (NKJV)
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

Abraham NEVER heard the name JESUS, and Never used the Name JESUS.

2 Peter 2:19-21 (ESV)
19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.

You are accountable for the LIGHT you have been given, not for the LIGHT you have never been given.  I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE HERE AND NOW, becuase Muslims have heard about JESUS and scoff at the idea that HE is GOD in the flesh.  THUS they have rejected the TRUTH or LIGHT that they were given, thus in my opinion they are blaspheming what the HOLY SPIRIT is trying to get them to believe.  With some people all we can do is make them accountable for the truth.  The TRUTH that the Native Americans were given prior to the white man getting here with the BIBLE for the first time; was the glory of GOD written in Creation.  Every human being is accountable for that LIGHT.  As for the blood of Christ, HE SHEAD IT FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD.  The only sin anyone goes to hell for, is rejecting Jesus Christ as their LORD, denying He is GOD in the flesh.  THAT is the only unforgivable sin.

[VCO]

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Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. NAS

Can you be saved without acknowledging your sin against the creator?

Malachi 3:6 (NKJV)
6 "For I am the Lord, I do not change; . . ."

THEREFORE, if we can find out how GOD saved one man, we will KNOW exactly how GOD saves ALL MEN.

Galatians 3:5-6 (ESV)
5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—
6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

NO, Abraham was not saved by faith, PLUS acknowledging his sin against the creator. 

Acknowledging our sin, and confessing it, IS a bi-product characteristic of being saved by GRACE, through FAITH, and NOT BY WORKS.

[Fat]

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Acknowledging our sin, and confessing it, IS a bi-product characteristic of being saved by GRACE, through FAITH, and NOT BY WORKS.

Ephesians 2:8 KJV
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Romans 10:17 KJV
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The Indians had no faith because they had no hearing of the Gospel. However the gospel was preached even in Genesis before the coming of Christ to the Jews
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This doctrine that you're trying to preach does two things, it removes the need for the great commission that Christ gave us, it also takes the Holy Ghost out of the process of salvation which is very dangerous.

Scriptures you have chosen do not back up your claim. Abraham believed God the American Indians had not heard God.

The TRUTH that the Native Americans were given prior to the white man getting here with the BIBLE for the first time; was the glory of GOD written in Creation.  Every human being is accountable for that LIGHT.  As for the blood of Christ, HE SHEAD IT FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD.  The only sin anyone goes to hell for, is rejecting Jesus Christ as their LORD, denying He is GOD in the flesh.  THAT is the only unforgivable sin.

This argument is absolutely stupid, you're saying that missionaries that go out and preach to tribes in the Amazons, are condemning those people to death by giving them the gospel. In another words if these missionaries would just leave them alone to their belief that there is a creator then they would've gone to heaven. But now many of them will die in hell because they heard the gospel.

Maybe Christ should've said that his disciples that they should've gone out and preached creation and not preached Christ. It would be much easier for the disciples to sell just Genesis 1 and not the whole Bible.

[JB Horn]

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becuase Muslims have heard about JESUS and scoff at the idea that HE is GOD in the flesh.

Actually many Muslims have not heard the Gospel of Christ because it is a capital crime preach this gospel in many of the Muslim nations. Yes they know the name Christ but nothing more of His Gospel and his teachings.

[biblebuf]

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NO, Abraham was not saved by faith, PLUS acknowledging his sin against the creator.
Abraham NEVER heard the name JESUS, and Never used the Name JESUS

And why was Abraham practicing blood sacrifices?
It is not the name of Jesus but the name of Emanuel (God is with us) that man must hear.

[VCO]

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  The Indians had no faith because they had no hearing of the Gospel. However the gospel was preached even in Genesis before the coming of Christ to the Jews
. . .
This doctrine that you're trying to preach does two things, it removes the need for the great commission that Christ gave us, it also takes the Holy Ghost out of the process of salvation which is very dangerous.
. . .
This argument is absolutely stupid, you're saying that missionaries that go out and preach to tribes in the Amazons, are condemning those people to death by giving them the gospel. In another words if these missionaries would just leave them alone to their belief that there is a creator then they would've gone to heaven. But now many of them will die in hell because they heard the gospel.

Maybe Christ should've said that his disciples that they should've gone out and preached creation and not preached Christ. It would be much easier for the disciples to sell just Genesis 1 and not the whole Bible.

Incredible!  Do you ever really read my posts, or do you always just skim over them fast and ASSUME you know what I said, then proceed to misquote and at your assumptions to my comments and THEREBY TOTALLY DISTORT MY COMMENTS.

Not hearing the GOSPEL, in YOUR opinion equals NO FAITH, and NO SALVATION.  You just eliminated ALL of the Old Testament saints, including Adam and Eve and ALL of the Old Testament writers and prophets.  You in your twisted understanding, appear to be saying all infants who die, go to hell because they did not hear the Gospel.  Are you condeming all deaf people too?  You said, "The gospel was preached even in Genesis".  Now how about giving us YOUR definition of the Gospel.

The term “gospel” occurs frequently in the NT in both noun and verb forms, literally meaning “good news” or “proclaiming good news.”—Holman Illustrated Bible Dictionary

It is the rendering of the Greek evangelion, i.e., "good message." It denotes (1) "the welcome intelligence of salvation to man as preached by our Lord and his followers. (2.) It was afterwards transitively applied to each of the four histories of our Lord's life, published by those who are therefore called 'Evangelists', writers of the history of the gospel (the evangelion). (3.) The term is often used to express collectively the gospel doctrines; and 'preaching the gospel' is often used to include not only the proclaiming of the good tidings, but the teaching men how to avail themselves of the offer of salvation, the—Easton's Illustrated Dictionary

In the New Testament the Greek word euaggelion, means "good news." It proclaims tidings of deliverance. The word sometimes stands for the record of the life of our Lord (Mark 1:1), embracing all His teachings, as in Acts 20:24. But the word "gospel" now has a peculiar use, and describes primarily the message which Christianity announces. "Good news" is its significance. It means a gift from God. It is the proclamation of the forgiveness of sins and sonship with God restored through Christ.—International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

The Great Commission is THE PRIMARY COMMAND TO THE CHURCH AND ALL CHRISTIANS.  Nothing I said negates OUR responsibility to GO AND MAKE DISCIPLES, TEACHING THEM TO OBEY HIM.  In fact those who do not think they have to OBEY HIM, and do their part to make disciples, are proving that the are lying about "KNOWING HIM", 1 John 2:4.  You are inserting assumptions from your mind, into my comments.

YES if we share the Gospel with someone, WE MAKE THEM ACCOUNTABLE FOR THAT TRUTH.  As for sharing CHRIST with them, with all "ETHNOS", THAT is what we are supposed to do, if we really are Christians.  To those who live up to the Light that God has given them, to them GOD has promised to give them more Light.

Mark 4:24 (NKJV)
24 Then He said to them, "Take heed what you hear. With the same measure you use, it will be measured to you; and to you who hear, more will be given.

YOU ARE ADDING TO THE SIMPLICITY OF THE GOSPEL.  If you believe what GOD has revealed to you, GOD will count it as righteousness:

Romans 4:3 (ESV)
3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”

[Fat]

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Not hearing the GOSPEL, in YOUR opinion equals NO FAITH, and NO SALVATION.

I believe the Bible to be true.


Romans 10:17 KJV
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Ephesians 2:8 KJV
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Galatians 3:2 KJV
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:5 KJV
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Luke 7:50 KJV
And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 18:42 KJV
And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight : thy faith hath saved thee.


Good News To Adam

So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, "Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.  And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

Good news To Us
Now tell us again about the good news your American Indians received.

[biblebuf]

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Incredible!  Do you ever really read my posts, or do you always just skim over them fast and ASSUME you know what I said, then proceed to misquote and at your assumptions to my comments and THEREBY TOTALLY DISTORT MY COMMENTS.

Not hearing the GOSPEL, in YOUR opinion equals NO FAITH, and NO SALVATION.  You just eliminated ALL of the Old Testament saints, including Adam and Eve and ALL of the Old Testament writers and prophets.  You in your twisted understanding, appear to be saying all infants who die, go to hell because they did not hear the Gospel.  Are you condeming all deaf people too?  You said, "The gospel was preached even in Genesis".  Now how about giving us YOUR definition of the Gospel.

The Great Commission is THE PRIMARY COMMAND TO THE CHURCH AND ALL CHRISTIANS.  Nothing I said negates OUR responsibility to GO AND MAKE DISCIPLES, TEACHING THEM TO OBEY HIM.  In fact those who do not think they have to OBEY HIM, and do their part to make disciples, are proving that the are lying about "KNOWING HIM", 1 John 2:4.  You are inserting assumptions from your mind, into my comments.

YES if we share the Gospel with someone, WE MAKE THEM ACCOUNTABLE FOR THAT TRUTH.  As for sharing CHRIST with them, with all "ETHNOS", THAT is what we are supposed to do, if we really are Christians.  To those who live up to the Light that God has given them, to them GOD has promised to give them more Light.

Mark 4:24 (NKJV)
24 Then He said to them, "Take heed what you hear. With the same measure you use, it will be measured to you; and to you who hear, more will be given.

YOU ARE ADDING TO THE SIMPLICITY OF THE GOSPEL.  If you believe what GOD has revealed to you, GOD will count it as righteousness:

Romans 4:3 (ESV)
3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”

VCO
Just for curiosity sake and so I know whom I am talking to, could you explain to me how many ways there are to heaven other than the Gospel of Christ.

[VCO]

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I believe the Bible to be true.


Romans 10:17 KJV
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

. . .

Now tell us again about the good news your American Indians received.

THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT.  Part of His WORD is written into everything HE created:

Romans 1:20 (NKJV)
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

Everything necessary to BELIEVE in GOD is written BY HIM into the things HE CREATED.

John 10:16 (NKJV)
16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

[VCO]

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VCO
Just for curiosity sake and so I know whom I am talking to, could you explain to me how many ways there are to heaven other than the Gospel of Christ.

I already did, you either skim over what I write and INSERT YOUR OPINIONS about what I said, or do not read them at all.  ONCE AGAIN:

Malachi 3:6 (NKJV)
6 "For I am the Lord, I do not change; . . .

THEREFORE, if we can find ONE example of HOW GOD saved a man, we will know how GOD saves all who believe in HIM.

Romans 4:3 (ISV)
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

THAT FAITH LIKE ABRAHAM'S THEREFORE is the ONE way to Salvation,

NOT Faith Plus speaking in tongues.

NOT Faith Plus Christian water Baptism.

NOT Faith Plus hearing the Good News from a Preacher.

NOT Faith Plus Good Works.

NOT Faith Plus Church Membership.

NOT Faith Plus anything.

Good Works, spiritual gifts, Christian Water Baptism, Church Membership, etc., etc.; are all thing that we DO after we are SAVED by GRACE, not to get saved.  AND YES everyone comes through Jesus Christ, who has that same FAITH that Abraham had; EVEN IF YOU NEVER HEARD THE NAME WE USE, JESUS CHRIST.  YES, the JEWS who truly knew HIM only as "Messiah" were saved through Jesus Christ, because HE IS THE MESSIAH.  YES the monotheistic natives of the world who truly knew HIM as "The Great Spirit who created everything" or some other name meaning Creator were saved through Jesus Christ, because HE IS THAT CREATOR.  YES, Faith comes through hearing the Word taught, but it is also available through what HE HAS WRITTEN into everything HE CREATED.  That is why NO ONE WHO REJECTS HIM has any excuse.  They cannot even claim, it is not my fault, because no one ever told me about Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:16-18 (NKJV)
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

Salvation is PURELY a work of the Holy Spirit, that we do not get to claim credit for.  YES we in obediance share what we learned about CHRIST, and if because of that testimony or sermon, someone gets saved, it is NOT because of us.  Therefore I do not believe in bragging about how many we led to the LORD, or baptized, (what I call TV preacher scalp hunting).  We are just the sower of the seed, NOT the creator of the seed.
Or like my pastor used to say, "We are just the bus boys serving the food that HE PREPARED, therefore ALL the glory belongs to HIM.

Isaiah 55:11-13 (NKJV)
11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.
12 "For you shall go out with joy, And be led out with peace; The mountains and the hills Shall break forth into singing before you, And all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
13 Instead of the thorn shall come up the cypress tree, And instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree; And it shall be to the Lord for a name, For an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off."

Luke 19:40 (NKJV)
40 But He answered and said to them, "I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out."

So whether the new believer heard a disciple proclaiming Who JESUS CHRIST IS, or heard the very stones HE created proclaim HIM as THEE CREATOR, it is ALL part of the SAME work of Salvation that ONLY the Holy Spirit gets credit for.

Jeremiah 33:2-3 (GW)
2 “I made {the earth}, formed it, and set it in place. My name is the Lord. This is what the Lord says:
3 Call to me, and I will answer you. I will tell you great and mysterious things that you do not know.

I am a very old-style conservative Evangelical, about as far from the modern Evangelical Liberalism as I can get, and I am very DEFINATELY NOT a Charismatic or Pentecostal.

Does that answer your question?  Sorry I am late answering these, but I have been very busy the last few days.

[VCO]

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Something else Fat, that you appear to have missed; and it may be because you have not yet focused on ALL of the LORD's work; which I find frequently in Churches that think they are the only true Church.  When Missionaries go to remote tribes, YES for the majority of them they are ENTLIGHTENING them to Truths about Jesus Christ; BUT for a few they are simply giving them MORE LIGHT than they had before.   

Missionaries to the Cherokee finally learned that Truth of our Creator:

http://www.cherokeediscovery.com/greatspirit.html

[Fat]

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Something else Fat, that you appear to have missed; and it may be because you have not yet focused on ALL of the LORD's work; which I find frequently in Churches that think they are the only true Church.  When Missionaries go to remote tribes, YES for the majority of them they are ENTLIGHTENING them to Truths about Jesus Christ; BUT for a few they are simply giving them MORE LIGHT than they had before.   

Missionaries to the Cherokee finally learned that Truth of our Creator:

http://www.cherokeediscovery.com/greatspirit.html

The Cherokees had a strong belief that there were certain beings who came down from the skies formed the world, the moon and the stars. It was believed that the world was created at the time of the new moon of autumn, when the fruits of the earth were ripe. 

In the Cherokee religion the sun appears to have been the pricipal object of worship. The Cherokee's would pray to the sun to bring abundant crops and good health. The Cherokee Indians held a festival called the new Moon Festival in which they paid hnor to the moon.

The following is an excerpt about the Cherokee Indian Religion: The moon was also considered to be important in religion and at every New Moon Festival special honor was paid to the moon. Fire was supposed to have been appointed by the sun and the moon to take care of mankind. It was considered as being intermediate to the sun and the smoke is symbolized as the messenger of the fire that would make known the petitions of the people to the sun. The Cherokees believed the morning star was once a wicked priest who killed people by witchcraft. When the Indians planned to kill him, he took all his shining crystals and flew away to the sky where he appeared as the morning star ever after.
(excerpt source)

The Cherokees believed in an after life and those who had behaved in a "good" manner went toa place that was light and pleasant. Those who had behaved poorly would be sent to a bad place and face torture. It was believed there were seven heavens, with the Supreme Being residing in the first heaven.

 

[Moss]

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Something else Fat, that you appear to have missed; and it may be because you have not yet focused on ALL of the LORD's work; which I find frequently in Churches that think they are the only true Church.  When Missionaries go to remote tribes, YES for the majority of them they are ENTLIGHTENING them to Truths about Jesus Christ; BUT for a few they are simply giving them MORE LIGHT than they had before.   

Missionaries to the Cherokee finally learned that Truth of our Creator:

http://www.cherokeediscovery.com/greatspirit.html

http://www.aaanativearts.com/cherokee/cherokee-religion.htm

Cherokee Religion and Traditional Tsalagi Religious Beliefs


The Cherokee did not view the earth as the "mother" of the human people, as the Sioux do, but as a place made for the Human People to live and which in and of itself was also a living thing. Se-lu, the Corn Mother, was viewed as the mother of the human people in ancient Cherokee legends.

[Bob]

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Something else Fat, that you appear to have missed; and it may be because you have not yet focused on ALL of the LORD's work; which I find frequently in Churches that think they are the only true Church.  When Missionaries go to remote tribes, YES for the majority of them they are ENTLIGHTENING them to Truths about Jesus Christ; BUT for a few they are simply giving them MORE LIGHT than they had before.   

Missionaries to the Cherokee finally learned that Truth of our Creator:

http://www.cherokeediscovery.com/greatspirit.html

IT MUST BE TRUE I READ IT ON THE INTERNET!

2 tim 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness

By the way remember that Abraham actually spoke face to face with Christ.