Bible Talk > Apologetics
Is the Bible truly God's Word?
macuser:
--- Quote --->>macuser: When did I "mock" anything? If you're taking my honest questions as mocking, then I think you're misinterpreting me. Example:
Me: "What time is it?"
Joe: "It's 3:47pm."
Me: "Are you sure? I thought it was already past four."
Joe: "Are you mocking me?"
Wouldn't you think Joe is being a little sensitive? I'm trying very hard to keep this if not friendly, then at least civil. If I offended you, I apologize, but at least specify exactly how I did so, so that I can correct myself for the future.
Just because I'm questioning things does not mean I'm mocking them, right?
--- End quote ---
For instance you posted a link that is supposed to show the inconsistencies of the Bible. I'm not going to go through the whole list there compiled by Donald Morgan, but let’s take the first example at the inconsistency and how atheist like to use deceit.
This is what the website says:
GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.
https://infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/contradictions.html
Here is what the Bible says:
Genesis 1:3. Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. 4. God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5. God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
Genesis 1:14. Then God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; 15. and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so. 16. God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; [He made] the stars also. 17. God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18. and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. 19. There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.
WOW!!!! It’s a whole deferent ball game. Greater light and lesser light, reminds me of some people.
--- Quote --- Now, about those prophecies: they're from the Bible. What makes you think the Bible is true or accurate? The Bible's authors are anonymous - we don't know who wrote them, and there's no corroborating writings from the historians of the Bible's time (of which there are at least 15) who mention anything about any of the Bible's contents. Now, there are historians who came as early as about 70 years later who do make brief mentions about Jesus, but they weren't eyewitnesses to the Bible's claims, weren't saying they had heard anything from eyewitnesses and were merely writing about what people of their own time were saying. Doesn't the lack of corroboration put the claims of the Bible in question?
And finally, one cannot fairly use a source to confirm itself. It would be like saying, Harry Potter could indeed produce a patronus in real life (a magical entity representing one's self) because it says he did it in the third Harry Potter book.
--- End quote ---
Actually you can use a source that is written over a period of 1000s of years. The Old Testament was written long before the New Testament. The prophecies of the Old Testament concerning Christ were fulfilled 2000 years ago. The last book of the New Testament, I believe, was written 70 years after the death of Christ. When most of the New Testament was written the people who observed the events that were written about were still alive and undoubtedly would have objected if the letters written by the apostles were false. The only prophecies of Christ that have not yet come true are those concerning the end times, which seem to be approaching quickly. One of these prophecies happen in my lifetime, 1948 when Israel and Jerusalem again became a nation under control of the Jewish people.
So, how do you know your atheism is true? Does it represent reality properly? Does your denial of God's existence properly represent actuality? If you cannot demonstrate that your atheism is true, then you are believing in something by faith, correct.
obi_donkenobi:
--- Quote from: macuser on October 17, 2018, 06:42:17 pm ---For instance you posted a link that is supposed to show the inconsistencies of the Bible. I'm not going to go through the whole list there compiled by Donald Morgan, but let’s take the first example at the inconsistency and how atheist like to use deceit.
This is what the website says:
GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.
https://infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/contradictions.html
Here is what the Bible says:
Genesis 1:3. Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. 4. God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5. God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
Genesis 1:14. Then God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; 15. and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so. 16. God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; [He made] the stars also. 17. God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18. and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. 19. There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.
WOW!!!! It’s a whole deferent ball game. Greater light and lesser light, reminds me of some people.
--- End quote ---
>>macuser: That's a bit broad and harsh, don't you think? I'm not trying to "deceive" you "like all atheists." If I'm mistaken, I'll admit it and retract what I've said. I'm always happy to be corrected and come closer to the truth. I will concede the alleged contradiction Morgan referenced (https://infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/contradictions.html) with regard to Gen 1:3-5 and Gen 1:14-19 is debatable, meaning it may or may not have merit depending on how it is interpreted. Indeed, Morgan does state in the two IMPORTANT notes at the top of that web page that the subjects listed, "are meant to identify possible problems in the Bible." In this specific case, I'll concede that the scripture is too vague to be definitely called a contradiction, and won't adhere to it specifically in the future as an argument against God, though it does seem wrong for both light and darkness to have to be manually created, rather than occurring as the natural result of demonstrable physical processes.
But that was the first of well over 400 contradictions/inconsistencies listed. Do you really want to tear each one apart, or could you concede that there are problems with the Bible? Remember: over 30,000 different sects of Christianity is proof positive that the Bible can't be perfect. If it were really perfect, there would be only one version of the religion and conflicting interpretations would be impossible. Shouldn't God be capable of doing that?
And did I detect a mocking insult in that last line? I got the Administrator's note of your complaint that I was mocking you. But don't worry, I'm incredibly thick-skinned and won't complain. Mock, insult, demean as much and as harsh as you like. I'll just assume you're just having fun and laugh, though I promise not to respond in kind. Also, I asked you to tell me exactly how I mocked you, but you didn't respond. I'd still like to know.
--- Quote ---Actually you can use a source that is written over a period of 1000s of years. The Old Testament was written long before the New Testament. The prophecies of the Old Testament concerning Christ were fulfilled 2000 years ago. The last book of the New Testament, I believe, was written 70 years after the death of Christ. When most of the New Testament was written the people who observed the events that were written about were still alive and undoubtedly would have objected if the letters written by the apostles were false. The only prophecies of Christ that have not yet come true are those concerning the end times, which seem to be approaching quickly. One of these prophecies happen in my lifetime, 1948 when Israel and Jerusalem again became a nation under control of the Jewish people.
--- End quote ---
I would have to disagree that you can use the Bible to confirm the Bible. First and foremost, because its authors are anonymous and therefore unable to be corroborated or otherwise validated. What if the biblical authors were all today's equivalents of fiction story writers? And biblical prophecies are so vague, they're not really prophecies. A real prophecy would list exact dates, names and actions. For example: On Feb 11th, 2035 at 10:32am, Carl Solling will become the youngest person to ever win the United States Presidency at the age of 38 years old. Now THAT'S a prophecy. See https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biblical_prophecies to find out about all the unfulfilled prophecies and the ones that were written after the events occurred. Also, if I go to a restaurant and order a burger and fries, and they show up a few minutes later, was that a prophecy? The point being (specifically concerning the Israel/Jerusalem prophecy): if a prediction is made and people work toward achieving it, was it miraculous?
Add to that, that many of the stories, characters and events told in the Bible likely come from the nearby cultures preceding it. From historian Richard Carrier:
Chronological trend in action: Eleusinian and Dionysian mysteries combined Hellenistic elements with Phoenician (Western Syria). The mysteries of Attis and Cybele combined Hellenistic elements with Phrygian (Northern Turkey). The mysteries of Jupiter Dolichenus combined Hellenistic elements with Anatolian (Western Turkey). The mysteries of Mithras combined Hellenistic elements with Persian (Iran). The mysteries of Isis and Osiris combined Hellenistic elements with Egyptian. Christianity combined Hellenistic elements with Jewish (Israel/Palestine). They are all: "Savior gods," and were "an offspring" of God. They all undergo a "passion." They all obtain victory over death, which they share with their followers. And they all have stories about them set in human history on Earth.
Story elements from middle-eastern cultures, including Hellenism, Eleusinian, Dionysian, Phoenician, Phrygian, Anatolian, Persian, Egyptian, and Judaean have been incorporated into Christianity.
Did you know any of this?
--- Quote ---So, how do you know your atheism is true? Does it represent reality properly? Does your denial of God's existence properly represent actuality? If you cannot demonstrate that your atheism is true, then you are believing in something by faith, correct.
--- End quote ---
Please listen carefully, as it does get somewhat tedious having to repeat it all the time. Like most atheists, it isn't my position that there is no god or gods; maybe there is or are. I am simply un-convinced that your claim for a Christian God is true. I am not making a positive claim - I am doubting your claim. As the one making the positive claim, you now have the Burden of Proof to show such a thing exists in reality, and I'm pretty certain you can't. Some atheists are what are called "gnostic" or "strong" atheists. They do state "there is no god or gods," but in stating that, they put themselves in the same epistemic boat as theists - they cannot prove their claim, either. Well, except for certain, more simplistic versions of God, such as an omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent and perfect God. That one just cannot logically exist, like a square circle or a married bachelor. I can explain that further, if you'd like.
Now let me ask you this: If you were born, raised and lived in India, do you think it likely you would believe in the Hindu gods, Vishnu, Shiva and Brahma? Why do you believe in the Christian God? How can you tell whether you've chosen the right god?
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