Bible Talk > Apologetics
Does God exist?
obi_donkenobi:
--- Quote from: JB Horn on October 18, 2018, 05:16:06 pm ---You don't remember posting this?
--- End quote ---
>>JB Horn: I do remember posting that (from Reply #15, above). Why do you ask? Did you understand what I was saying? In your Reply #16, you wrote:
"So basically your answer is that science is unable to give you an answer so you refuse to look further. There are three answers and two can be proven wrong by any high school science teacher. The faith of an athlete must be right up there with That pope Francis guy."
The bolded part was your misinterpretation of what I actually said, which was:
I don't know is sometimes the very best answer we can have. It opens our minds to searching for real answers that are based on the scientific research of reality.[/i]
--- Quote ---And by the way Don't know is not an answer, it is a lack of an answer. I believe that you misstated your purpose for visiting this forum.
--- End quote ---
Really? "I don't know" isn't an answer, but a lack of an answer? Are you sure about that? Seems like an answer, to me. For another example: I ask you - how old is my aunt's cousin Maybell? I'd really like an answer right now. Wouldn't your answer have to be, "I don't know?"
Isn't a lack of an answer just silence, or the answer to some other question that wasn't asked? (E.g. Q: "What time is it?" A: "The Boston Red Sox First Baseman.")
Don't you really mean that "I don't know" isn't the answer you were looking for?
--- Quote ---It is my opinion that you are lost and confused about the purpose of your life, and you've come here to find some reason in your earthly existence. And you have admitted that there may be a God or even gods that exist. Are you an atheist or not?
--- End quote ---
An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in a god or gods. Since I don't think there's a god or gods, that makes me an atheist. Admitting there might be a god or gods doesn't make me a theist, it makes me an honest atheist.
--- Quote ---Most religions believe in a god of creations, even the American indigenous natives, to be politically correct, believe in a creator. Atheists do not, and we are going to have to get through that question before we go any further.
--- End quote ---
You're quite correct: Atheists do not believe in a Creator. But the thing we need to "get through" is your lack of evidence for your claim that there is one. Theists claim there is one, atheists are skeptical; don't you agree that it is up to the person with the positive claim to provide evidence for their claim?
--- Quote ---The comfortable thing about being an atheist is that you cannot sin, you can only break the law. As long as what you do is legal then an atheist feels no responsibility for their actions.There is nothing illegal about cheating on your spouse, so it is not a sin and there are no repercussions unless you're caught by your spouse. Tell me Obi if there is a God do you believe that you could have sinned against him?
--- End quote ---
"Sin" is a Christian religious construct, meaning "transgressions against God." I would agree that if God existed, then sin would be a real thing to contend with, but not really, because isn't it true that God forgives all sins if a person believes in Him and begs for His forgiveness? So, couldn't a convicted and sentenced murderer and child rapist ask for forgiveness in a sincere "come to Jesus" moment, just before they pulled the switch, and find himself in Heaven? Meanwhile, in China, a Taoist woman who leads an exemplary life of kindness, productivity, charity and love ends up in Hell for not believing in God. Do you think that's just?
There's actually nothing "comfortable" about being an atheist. A good 85% of the U.S. is some type of religious. There are churches on nearly every other street corner in every city of the country. Merely stating a disbelief in God can get one fired, attacked, shunned by family and lifelong friends, and not quite so much in America, but in other countries, can even get one killed. We are pummeled daily with theistic attempts to force their doctrines into our government, our classrooms, our homes. Does that really sound very "comfortable" to you? How comfortable would you be if Wiccans tried to have the words, "Blessed Be," put on all our money, or had legislation passed forcing schoolchildren to learn potions, or had statues of the Goddess erected on public property? As President Obama said, "Put yourself into someone else's shoes. Try to look at the world through their eyes."
Finally, do you believe Christians don't sin? Aren't some of them quite comfortable sinning, knowing they can just ask for forgiveness, later, without even providing restitution for their crimes? And if that's true, then why mention sin at all? Here's my opinion of "sin": it's a brilliant control mechanism based on nothing but fear of an almost assuredly fictional entity that's said to be watching over them 24/7. In doing this, hasn't Christianity supplied both the disease and the cure using nothing but words?
JB Horn:
--- Quote from: obi_donkenobi on October 19, 2018, 12:12:59 am --->>JB Horn: I do remember posting that (from Reply #15, above). Why do you ask? Did you understand what I was saying? In your Reply #16, you wrote:
"So basically your answer is that science is unable to give you an answer so you refuse to look further. There are three answers and two can be proven wrong by any high school science teacher. The faith of an athlete must be right up there with That pope Francis guy."
The bolded part was your misinterpretation of what I actually said, which was:
I don't know is sometimes the very best answer we can have. It opens our minds to searching for real answers that are based on the scientific research of reality.[/i]
Really? "I don't know" isn't an answer, but a lack of an answer? Are you sure about that? Seems like an answer, to me. For another example: I ask you - how old is my aunt's cousin Maybell? I'd really like an answer right now. Wouldn't your answer have to be, "I don't know?"
Isn't a lack of an answer just silence, or the answer to some other question that wasn't asked? (E.g. Q: "What time is it?" A: "The Boston Red Sox First Baseman.")
Don't you really mean that "I don't know" isn't the answer you were looking for?
An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in a god or gods. Since I don't think there's a god or gods, that makes me an atheist. Admitting there might be a god or gods doesn't make me a theist, it makes me an honest atheist.
You're quite correct: Atheists do not believe in a Creator. But the thing we need to "get through" is your lack of evidence for your claim that there is one. Theists claim there is one, atheists are skeptical; don't you agree that it is up to the person with the positive claim to provide evidence for their claim?
"Sin" is a Christian religious construct, meaning "transgressions against God." I would agree that if God existed, then sin would be a real thing to contend with, but not really, because isn't it true that God forgives all sins if a person believes in Him and begs for His forgiveness? So, couldn't a convicted and sentenced murderer and child rapist ask for forgiveness in a sincere "come to Jesus" moment, just before they pulled the switch, and find himself in Heaven? Meanwhile, in China, a Taoist woman who leads an exemplary life of kindness, productivity, charity and love ends up in Hell for not believing in God. Do you think that's just?
There's actually nothing "comfortable" about being an atheist. A good 85% of the U.S. is some type of religious. There are churches on nearly every other street corner in every city of the country. Merely stating a disbelief in God can get one fired, attacked, shunned by family and lifelong friends, and not quite so much in America, but in other countries, can even get one killed. We are pummeled daily with theistic attempts to force their doctrines into our government, our classrooms, our homes. Does that really sound very "comfortable" to you? How comfortable would you be if Wiccans tried to have the words, "Blessed Be," put on all our money, or had legislation passed forcing schoolchildren to learn potions, or had statues of the Goddess erected on public property? As President Obama said, "Put yourself into someone else's shoes. Try to look at the world through their eyes."
Finally, do you believe Christians don't sin? Aren't some of them quite comfortable sinning, knowing they can just ask for forgiveness, later, without even providing restitution for their crimes? And if that's true, then why mention sin at all? Here's my opinion of "sin": it's a brilliant control mechanism based on nothing but fear of a fictional entity that's said to be watching over them 24/7. In doing this, hasn't Christianity supplied both the disease and the cure using nothing but words?
--- End quote ---
I have always found it strange that an atheist would be uncomfortable just hearing about someone else's beliefs. How can anyone be forced to believe. God in schools has been replaced by violence, it's working out real well.
Yes everyone sins and if a Christian tells you he doesn't then he just sin by lying. But no Christian is comfortable with sin, if he is then by definition he is not Christian.
--- Quote ---God forgives all sins if a person believes in Him and begs for His forgiveness?
--- End quote ---
NO! that is a total misrepresentation of the Scripture. Acts 2:38; 3:19; 11:18; 17:30; 20:21; 26:20 Do you understand the word Repent as used here?
I almost left here without answering a major question you asked.
--- Quote ---Taoist woman who leads an exemplary life of kindness, productivity, charity and love ends up in Hell for not believing in God. Do you think that's just?
--- End quote ---
Yes, could a just God do anything but be just when it comes to His commandments? Matthew 22:37, 38
obi_donkenobi:
--- Quote from: JB Horn on October 19, 2018, 12:58:54 am ---I have always found it strange that an atheist would be uncomfortable just hearing about someone else's beliefs.
--- End quote ---
>>JB Horn: I can't speak for all atheists; no atheist can do that, but I can tell you that when I hear theists put voice to their beliefs, I do suffer a bit of eye-roll, just because it all seems so unlikely and that their belief seems out of proportion to their, what seems to me, fantastic claims. That comprises the usual amount of discomfort I experience in the presence of any supernatural beliefs. How do you feel when you see someone expounding on the virtues of Islam, or Mormonism, or Buddhism, or Paganism, or Scientology? Do you still think my reaction to your religion is all that strange?
--- Quote ---How can anyone be forced to believe.
--- End quote ---
You're right: no one can be forced to believe anything, but they can be proselytized or indoctrinated, and this seems to me particularly underhanded with regard to children before they attain the age of reason.
--- Quote ---God in schools has been replaced by violence, it's working out real well.
--- End quote ---
You can't say with honesty that secularism has caused increased violence in schools. You'd have to have a scientifically run sociological study of that claim. Do you have one? Aren't you just voicing an opinion?
--- Quote ---Yes everyone sins and if a Christian tells you he doesn't then he just sin by lying. But no Christian is comfortable with sin, if he is then by definition he is not Christian.
--- End quote ---
Is there a universally accepted definition of what a Christian is? I've never seen one, but I've often heard Christians from one denomination declare that Christians from other denominations weren't really Christians. Interesting fact: states in the Bible belt view a greater-than-average amount of porn https://www.maxim.com/maxim-man/religious-people-watch-the-most-porn-2017-3. So maybe Christians are more comfortable with sin than you think(?)
--- Quote ---NO! that is a total misrepresentation of the Scripture. Acts 2:38; 3:19; 11:18; 17:30; 20:21; 26:20 Do you understand the word Repent as used here?
--- End quote ---
Okay, replace "begs for forgiveness" with "repent." So my paragraph now reads:
"Sin" is a Christian religious construct, meaning "transgressions against God." I would agree that if God existed, then sin would be a real thing to contend with, but not really, because isn't it true that God forgives all sins if a person believes in Him and begs for His forgiveness repents? So, couldn't a convicted and sentenced murderer and child rapist ask for forgiveness repent in a sincere "come to Jesus" moment, just before they pulled the switch, and find himself in Heaven? Meanwhile, in China, a Taoist woman who leads an exemplary life of kindness, productivity, charity and love ends up in Hell for not believing in God.
Is that a more accurate description of God's requirements for salvation? Isn't the word "repent" just a synonym for asking forgiveness? I'm not sure what your point is, here. How does "repent" change the above scenario?
And the question remains: Do you think that's just (the murdering child rapist as opposed to the nice Chinese lady)?
--- Quote ---I almost left here without answering a major question you asked. Yes, could a just God do anything but be just when it comes to His commandments? Matthew 22:37, 38
--- End quote ---
So, tell me if I've got this right or not: your Matthew quote means that whatever God says is just, is just? That's just plain scary. If out of a million believers, one says they received a revelatory commandment from God telling him to drive a truck loaded with explosives into a shopping center and blow it up, wouldn't that person be right to do so, based on that Matthew quote and the strength of his faith that he really did receive a message from on high? This is why I say belief in the supernatural is dangerous.
No comments about your misinterpretation of my statement about the answer, "I don't know?" Do you still maintain "I don't know" isn't an answer?
Do you agree that I am an atheist? You seemed to be in doubt about that.
Do you still think being an atheist surrounded by theistic activists is a comfortable position?
Don't you agree that the concept of sin could be thought of as a clever gambit to control the masses? Wouldn't it be better to appeal to people's sense of empathy and fairness, which is demonstrably real, rather than tell them an invisible man is watching them and keeping score?
JB Horn:
--- Quote from: obi_donkenobi on October 19, 2018, 03:28:13 am --->>JB Horn: I can't speak for all atheists; no atheist can do that, but I can tell you that when I hear theists put voice to their beliefs, I do suffer a bit of eye-roll, just because it all seems so unlikely and that their belief seems out of proportion to their, what seems to me, fantastic claims. That comprises the usual amount of discomfort I experience in the presence of any supernatural beliefs. How do you feel when you see someone expounding on the virtues of Islam, or Mormonism, or Buddhism, or Paganism, or Scientology? Do you still think my reaction to your religion is all that strange?
You're right: no one can be forced to believe anything, but they can be proselytized or indoctrinated, and this seems to me particularly underhanded with regard to children before they attain the age of reason.
You can't say with honesty that secularism has caused increased violence in schools. You'd have to have a scientifically run sociological study of that claim. Do you have one? Aren't you just voicing an opinion?
Is there a universally accepted definition of what a Christian is? I've never seen one, but I've often heard Christians from one denomination declare that Christians from other denominations weren't really Christians. Interesting fact: states in the Bible belt view a greater-than-average amount of porn https://www.maxim.com/maxim-man/religious-people-watch-the-most-porn-2017-3. So maybe Christians are more comfortable with sin that you think(?)
Okay, replace "begs for forgiveness" with "repent." So my paragraph now reads:
"Sin" is a Christian religious construct, meaning "transgressions against God." I would agree that if God existed, then sin would be a real thing to contend with, but not really, because isn't it true that God forgives all sins if a person believes in Him and begs for His forgiveness repents? So, couldn't a convicted and sentenced murderer and child rapist ask for forgiveness repent in a sincere "come to Jesus" moment, just before they pulled the switch, and find himself in Heaven? Meanwhile, in China, a Taoist woman who leads an exemplary life of kindness, productivity, charity and love ends up in Hell for not believing in God.
Is that a more accurate description of God's requirements for salvation? Isn't the word "repent" just a synonym for asking forgiveness? I'm not sure what your point is, here. How does "repent" change the above scenario?
And the question remains: Do you think that's just (the murdering child rapist as opposed to the nice Chinese lady)?
So, tell me if I've got this right or not: your Matthew quote means that whatever God says is just, is just? That's just plain scary. If out of a million believers, one says they received a revelatory commandment from God telling him to drive a truck loaded with explosives into a shopping center and blow it up, wouldn't that person be right to do so, based on that Matthew quote and the strength of his faith that he really did receive a message from on high? This is why I say belief in the supernatural is dangerous.
No comments about your misinterpretation of my statement about the answer, "I don't know?" Do you still maintain "I don't know" isn't an answer?
Do you agree that I am an atheist? You seemed to be in doubt about that.
Do you still think being an atheist surrounded by theistic activists is a comfortable position?
Don't you agree that the concept of sin could be thought of as a clever gambit to control the masses? Wouldn't it be better to appeal to people's sense of empathy and fairness, which is demonstrably real, rather than tell them an invisible man is watching them and keeping score?
--- End quote ---
STRONGS NT 3341: μετάνοια
μετάνοια, μετανοίας, ἡ (μετανοέω), a change of mind: as it appears in one who repents of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done, Hebrews 12:17 on which see εὑρίσκω, 3 ((Thucydides 3, 36, 3); Polybius 4, 66, 7; Plutarch, Peric c. 10; mor., p. 26 a.; τῆς ἀδελφοκτονιας μετάνοια, Josephus, Antiquities 13, 11, 3); especially the change of mind of those who have begun to abhor their errors and misdeeds, and have determined to enter upon a better course of life, so that it embraces both a recognition of sin and sorrow for it and hearty amendment, the tokens and effects of which are good deeds (Lactantius, 6, 24, 6 would have it rendered in Latin byresipiscentia) (A. V. repentance): Matthew 3:8, 11; Luke 3:8, (16 Lachmann); Luke 15:7; Luke 24:47; Acts 26:20; βάπτισμα μετανοίας, a baptism binding its subjects to repentance (Winer's Grammar, § 30, 2 β.), Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3; Acts 13:24; Acts 19:4; (ἡ εἰς (τόν) Θεόν μετάνοια, Acts 20:21, see μετανοέω, at the end); διδόναι τίνι μετάνοιαν, to give one the ability to repent, or to cause him to repent, Acts 5:31; Acts 11:18; 2 Timothy 2:25; τινα εἰς μετάνοιαν καλεῖν, Luke 5:32, and Rec. in Matthew 9:13; Mark 2:17; ἄγειν, Romans 2:4 (Josephus, Antiquities 4, 6, 10 at the end); ἀνακαινίζειν, Hebrews 6:6; χωρῆσαι εἰς μετάνοιαν, to come to the point of repenting, or be brought to repentance, 2 Peter 3:9 (but see χωρέω, 1 at the end); μετάνοια ἀπό νεκρῶν ἔργων, that change of mind by which we turn from, desist from, etc. Hebrews 6:1 (Buttmann, 322 (277)); used merely of the improved spiritual state resulting from deep sorrow for sin, 2 Corinthians 7:9f (Sir. 44:16: Wis. 11:24 (23); ; Or. Man. f ((cf. the Sept. edition Tdf. Prolog., p. 112f)); Philo, qued det. pot. insid. § 26 at the beginning; Antoninus 8, 10; (Cebes, tab. 10 at the end).)
Fat:
--- Quote from: obi_donkenobi on October 19, 2018, 03:28:13 am --->>JB Horn: I can't speak for all atheists; no atheist can do that, but I can tell you that when I hear theists put voice to their beliefs, I do suffer a bit of eye-roll, just because it all seems so unlikely and that their belief seems out of proportion to their, what seems to me, fantastic claims. That comprises the usual amount of discomfort I experience in the presence of any supernatural beliefs. How do you feel when you see someone expounding on the virtues of Islam, or Mormonism, or Buddhism, or Paganism, or Scientology? Do you still think my reaction to your religion is all that strange?
You're right: no one can be forced to believe anything, but they can be proselytized or indoctrinated, and this seems to me particularly underhanded with regard to children before they attain the age of reason.
You can't say with honesty that secularism has caused increased violence in schools. You'd have to have a scientifically run sociological study of that claim. Do you have one? Aren't you just voicing an opinion?
Is there a universally accepted definition of what a Christian is? I've never seen one, but I've often heard Christians from one denomination declare that Christians from other denominations weren't really Christians. Interesting fact: states in the Bible belt view a greater-than-average amount of porn https://www.maxim.com/maxim-man/religious-people-watch-the-most-porn-2017-3. So maybe Christians are more comfortable with sin that you think(?)
Okay, replace "begs for forgiveness" with "repent." So my paragraph now reads:
"Sin" is a Christian religious construct, meaning "transgressions against God." I would agree that if God existed, then sin would be a real thing to contend with, but not really, because isn't it true that God forgives all sins if a person believes in Him and begs for His forgiveness repents? So, couldn't a convicted and sentenced murderer and child rapist ask for forgiveness repent in a sincere "come to Jesus" moment, just before they pulled the switch, and find himself in Heaven? Meanwhile, in China, a Taoist woman who leads an exemplary life of kindness, productivity, charity and love ends up in Hell for not believing in God.
Is that a more accurate description of God's requirements for salvation? Isn't the word "repent" just a synonym for asking forgiveness? I'm not sure what your point is, here. How does "repent" change the above scenario?
And the question remains: Do you think that's just (the murdering child rapist as opposed to the nice Chinese lady)?
So, tell me if I've got this right or not: your Matthew quote means that whatever God says is just, is just? That's just plain scary. If out of a million believers, one says they received a revelatory commandment from God telling him to drive a truck loaded with explosives into a shopping center and blow it up, wouldn't that person be right to do so, based on that Matthew quote and the strength of his faith that he really did receive a message from on high? This is why I say belief in the supernatural is dangerous.
No comments about your misinterpretation of my statement about the answer, "I don't know?" Do you still maintain "I don't know" isn't an answer?
Do you agree that I am an atheist? You seemed to be in doubt about that.
Do you still think being an atheist surrounded by theistic activists is a comfortable position?
Don't you agree that the concept of sin could be thought of as a clever gambit to control the masses? Wouldn't it be better to appeal to people's sense of empathy and fairness, which is demonstrably real, rather than tell them an invisible man is watching them and keeping score?
--- End quote ---
Obi there are a lot of people who claim to be christians but few are. A 1800's preacher named Spurgeon, once said that he would guess that only 10% of his church was christian.
Christ addressed those so called christians.
Matthew 7:22-24
22. "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23. "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
24. "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
The word repent (in scripture) means to change your direction of your life. And it is true that your condemned man can be saved from hell even though he is executed. Salvation is not the work of man but of God. If you spend your life doing good for man then let man save you from hell. If you love man over God then expect Him to say DEPART FROM ME.
A cut and paste from a other board (it's a calvinist view):
Repentance is not a work we do to earn salvation. No one can repent and come to God unless God pulls that person to Himself (John 6:44). Repentance is something God gives—it is only possible because of His grace (Acts 5:31; 11:18). No one can repent unless God grants repentance. All of salvation, including repentance and faith, is a result of God drawing us, opening our eyes, and changing our hearts. God’s longsuffering leads us to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), as does His kindness (Romans 2:4).
I am what we call a Calvinist, so I don't care what others do or believe and like JB I have a hard time understanding why you do.
Why do you attack a religion that it appears you know nothing about?
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