Bible Talk > Apologetics

Does God exist?

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obi_donkenobi:

--- Quote from: JB Horn on October 19, 2018, 10:05:17 am ---STRONGS NT 3341: μετάνοια

μετάνοια, μετανοίας, ἡ (μετανοέω), a change of mind: as it appears in one who repents of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done, Hebrews 12:17 on which see εὑρίσκω, 3 ((Thucydides 3, 36, 3); Polybius 4, 66, 7; Plutarch, Peric c. 10; mor., p. 26 a.; τῆς ἀδελφοκτονιας μετάνοια, Josephus, Antiquities 13, 11, 3); especially the change of mind of those who have begun to abhor their errors and misdeeds, and have determined to enter upon a better course of life, so that it embraces both a recognition of sin and sorrow for it and hearty amendment, the tokens and effects of which are good deeds (Lactantius, 6, 24, 6 would have it rendered in Latin byresipiscentia) (A. V. repentance): Matthew 3:8, 11; Luke 3:8, (16 Lachmann); Luke 15:7; Luke 24:47; Acts 26:20; βάπτισμα μετανοίας, a baptism binding its subjects to repentance (Winer's Grammar, § 30, 2 β.), Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3; Acts 13:24; Acts 19:4; (ἡ εἰς (τόν) Θεόν μετάνοια, Acts 20:21, see μετανοέω, at the end); διδόναι τίνι μετάνοιαν, to give one the ability to repent, or to cause him to repent, Acts 5:31; Acts 11:18; 2 Timothy 2:25; τινα εἰς μετάνοιαν καλεῖν, Luke 5:32, and Rec. in Matthew 9:13; Mark 2:17; ἄγειν, Romans 2:4 (Josephus, Antiquities 4, 6, 10 at the end); ἀνακαινίζειν, Hebrews 6:6; χωρῆσαι εἰς μετάνοιαν, to come to the point of repenting, or be brought to repentance, 2 Peter 3:9 (but see χωρέω, 1 at the end); μετάνοια ἀπό νεκρῶν ἔργων, that change of mind by which we turn from, desist from, etc. Hebrews 6:1 (Buttmann, 322 (277)); used merely of the improved spiritual state resulting from deep sorrow for sin, 2 Corinthians 7:9f (Sir. 44:16: Wis. 11:24 (23); ; Or. Man. f ((cf. the Sept. edition Tdf. Prolog., p. 112f)); Philo, qued det. pot. insid. § 26 at the beginning; Antoninus 8, 10; (Cebes, tab. 10 at the end).)

--- End quote ---
>>JB Horn: I'm sorry; quoting scripture doesn't mean anything to me because I don't recognize the source as necessarily true or valid. I respond only to reasonable argument, or rather, argument based on reason - not dogma. Just because a book says a repenting murderous child rapist gets to go to Heaven while a wonderful non-Christian Chinese lady goes to Hell seems pretty unreasonable to me. If you are fine with that based on the writings of anonymous authors who likely got most of their highly un-likely ideas from previous nearby superstitious cultures when there's no good evidence anything supernatural exists, and that you seem to now be ignoring my more specific questions, then I guess you and I are done, here, and that's okay. Thanks for doing as much as you did. I'll let the readers of our exchange be the judge as to which of us had the better arguments, and willingness to engage.

obi_donkenobi:

--- Quote from: Fat on October 19, 2018, 11:12:53 am ---Obi there are a lot of people who claim to be christians but few are. A 1800's preacher named Spurgeon, once said that he would guess that only 10% of his church was christian.
Christ addressed those so called christians.
--- End quote ---
Well, that's a big problem, isn't it? For example: Are you a Christian? Who amongst you gets to say with any authority? What is that authority based on? And then it goes further: which among you has the right interpretation of scripture? Isn't it true that there are over 30,000 denominations of Christianity because none of you, even those of you in the same denomination, can agree on everything in the Bible, thus creating an overall mass confusion as to exactly how you're supposed to follow God's word and achieve Heaven/avoid Hell? This then begs the question: How could an all-power/knowing/loving and perfect god inspire a book that no one can be sure they correctly interpreted except by faith, which is unreliable in the pursuit of truth. Does that make sense to you?

Don't you all really just say to yourselves "close enough," and hope for the best? And that, only if you chance to think of this rather sticky conundrum at all? If you can't understand why I argue against your religion, I can't understand how you can ignore all these logical problems and stay religious.


--- Quote ---Matthew 7:22-24
22. "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23. "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
24. "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
The word repent (in scripture) means to change your direction of your life. And it is true that your condemned man can be saved from hell even though he is executed. Salvation is not the work of man but of God. If you spend your life doing good for man then let man save you from hell. If you love man over God then expect Him to say DEPART FROM ME.
--- End quote ---
That's only assuming that there is such an entity that can be departed from. That's where I think you're mistaken - where I can't go. For some reason unknown to me, you believe in God, even though there's no good evidence He really exists. Why do you believe?


--- Quote ---A cut and paste from a other board (it's a calvinist view):
Repentance is not a work we do to earn salvation. No one can repent and come to God unless God pulls that person to Himself (John 6:44). Repentance is something God gives—it is only possible because of His grace (Acts 5:31; 11:18). No one can repent unless God grants repentance. All of salvation, including repentance and faith, is a result of God drawing us, opening our eyes, and changing our hearts. God’s longsuffering leads us to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), as does His kindness (Romans 2:4).
--- End quote ---
Again, you first have to believe the Bible for this to have any meaning. I don't mind you quoting and appreciate your hard work, but you might want to keep in mind, it means nothing to me and is unfortunately a useless effort. I'll bet you're hoping I'll find it inspirational or revelatory, but I don't. How can I, when I don't consider the Bible any more real than "The Lord of the Rings," which also has the benefit of not being written in Olde English.


--- Quote ---I am what we call a Calvinist, so I don't care what others do or believe and like JB I have a hard time understanding why you do.
--- End quote ---
and

--- Quote ---Why do you attack a religion that it appears you know nothing about?
--- End quote ---
I understand. Here's why I oppose all supernatural thinking: Because it's harmful, and I don't like to see my fellow planetary occupants, both human and non-human alike, being harmed. I have a genetically developed sense of empathy and justice, just like everyone else (to varying degrees)(no gods needed), including many of the higher animals. Belief in gods cause rifts between family members, members and groups within society and entire nations. The divisiveness of religion has always led to hate, conflict, terror, war and death. Faith in religion can cause some people to ignore human-caused global warming (tons of scientific evidence for this) - the single greatest threat to the future survival of all life on Earth that humankind has ever faced. It can cause people to not fully live the one life they're sure to have because they think there's an afterlife (for which there's no real evidence) which will be better. I think that's incredibly sad. If Calvinism makes you not care about the thoughts and feelings of others, I would disagree, and really, I don't think you mean it. I imagine you're a very fine fellow who loves his family, friends and fellow humans just as much as I do. Well, except for those not of your religion. People have to be taught to hate others they've never met, and doesn't religion and the competition it engenders do just that?

There are, of course, other "causes" that create division: political systems, racial and gender divides, right on down to whose dad is stronger. But none of these other points of conflict compares to the question of eternal damnation, even though there's no good evidence for it. People will commit mass murder in order to "save the souls" of as many others as possible. What could be more important than how one spends one's eternal afterlife? This whips the fundamentalists into a frenzy and throughout human history, it's been a major source of unnecessary pain, suffering and death than just about any other cause.

So, that's why I argue against the supernatural, and supernatural religions in specific - to reduce its harm. I'm a great proponent for the proposition: every little bit helps. Does that make sense to you?

admin:
Obi
You’ve have shown that you’re unwilling or unable understand  our beliefs. True Christianity is based on love, the first is love for Christ and secondly your neighbors. We can prove that with Scripture but you refuse to accept it.
You will not even except definitions of what Christianity is, trying to define words that make it fit your personal BELIEFS.

You may be a good human being and full of good intentions, but serviing man and refusing server God gets you into Hell. Now if you don’t believe in Hell you should have no problem with that.

You guys wrap up this thread because I’m going lock it down after you close up your thoughts.

I thank you Obi enjoy you life of logic or attempt there of.

Dude

Fat:

--- Quote from: obi_donkenobi on October 20, 2018, 02:12:53 am ---Well, that's a big problem, isn't it? For example: Are you a Christian? Who amongst you gets to say with any authority? What is that authority based on? And then it goes further: which among you has the right interpretation of scripture? Isn't it true that there are over 30,000 denominations of Christianity because none of you, even those of you in the same denomination, can agree on everything in the Bible, thus creating an overall mass confusion as to exactly how you're supposed to follow God's word and achieve Heaven/avoid Hell? This then begs the question: How could an all-power/knowing/loving and perfect god inspire a book that no one can be sure they correctly interpreted except by faith, which is unreliable in the pursuit of truth. Does that make sense to you?
--- End quote ---

It is obvious that you have not read the book and you refuse to accept any reference to it. So you've closed off that discussion on your own.


--- Quote ---Don't you all really just say to yourselves "close enough," and hope for the best? And that, only if you chance to think of this rather sticky conundrum at all? If you can't understand why I argue against your religion, I can't understand how you can ignore all these logical problems and stay religious.
That's only assuming that there is such an entity that can be departed from. That's where I think you're mistaken - where I can't go. For some reason unknown to me, you believe in God, even though there's no good evidence He really exists. Why do you believe?
Again, you first have to believe the Bible for this to have any meaning. I don't mind you quoting and appreciate your hard work, but you might want to keep in mind, it means nothing to me and is unfortunately a useless effort. I'll bet you're hoping I'll find it inspirational or revelatory, but I don't. How can I, when I don't consider the Bible any more real than "The Lord of the Rings," which also has the benefit of not being written in Olde English.
andI understand. Here's why I oppose all supernatural thinking: Because it's harmful, and I don't like to see my fellow planetary occupants, both human and non-human alike, being harmed. I have a genetically developed sense of empathy and justice, just like everyone else (to varying degrees)(no gods needed), including many of the higher animals. Belief in gods cause rifts between family members, members and groups within society and entire nations. The divisiveness of religion has always led to hate, conflict, terror, war and death. Faith in religion can cause some people to ignore human-caused global warming (tons of scientific evidence for this) - the single greatest threat to the future survival of all life on Earth that humankind has ever faced. It can cause people to not fully live the one life they're sure to have because they think there's an afterlife (for which there's no real evidence) which will be better. I think that's incredibly sad. If Calvinism makes you not care about the thoughts and feelings of others, I would disagree, and really, I don't think you mean it. I imagine you're a very fine fellow who loves his family, friends and fellow humans just as much as I do. Well, except for those not of your religion. People have to be taught to hate others they've never met, and doesn't religion and the competition it engenders do just that?
--- End quote ---

 Your scientific evidence falls apart with your answer, I don't know.

Of course again you try to misrepresent what is being said, I do not care who or how people think about me or my religion. I did not say that I am not concerned about other people's feelings. 



--- Quote ---There are, of course, other "causes" that create division: political systems, racial and gender divides, right on down to whose dad is stronger. But none of these other points of conflict compares to the question of eternal damnation, even though there's no good evidence for it. People will commit mass murder in order to "save the souls" of as many others as possible. What could be more important than how one spends one's eternal afterlife? This whips the fundamentalists into a frenzy and throughout human history, it's been a major source of unnecessary pain, suffering and death than just about any other cause.

So, that's why I argue against the supernatural, and supernatural religions in specific - to reduce its harm. I'm a great proponent for the proposition: every little bit helps. Does that make sense to you?

--- End quote ---

 Stalin, Pol Pot, and Hitler in my lifetime.  And at the present time we have a thing called abortion.

 Since this will be my last post on this thread I would like to address your question about the old Chinese lady. We teach and the Bible teaches that if you are without sin you will not go to hell. If your Chinese lady has never sinned against God then she has no fear of hell. And yourself, aren't you trying to suggest, in your own mind, you are that Chinese lady? Since you don't believe in God you can never sin against Him, if you are wrong you are in deep do do.  And for a man/woman whose answer to their existence is I don't know your life must be very scary.

 Obi I wish you all the best in this life, and hopefully you will prepare your soul for what comes after.

Fat

JB Horn:
Well Obi the only thing to tell you is you know not what you speak. Christ taught of love and the first was love to God and the second was love to man.
You need both to be a Christian. If you love man without putting God first you fall short of any chance of salvation.

The Scripture say love your neighbor as yourself, it also teaches love God above yourself. I'm sorry that you can't get your head around that.

Matthew 22:36-40
36. "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
37. And He said to him, "'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
38. "This is the great and foremost commandment.
39. "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
40. "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

 On the other hand Islam teaches to kill Christians and Jews, and they kill thousands of them every year, but no condemnation from Obi.  You are not here to un-convert to me, you are here to justify the love you have for yourself. In any case you have done neither and I predict that that feeling you have in your gut of loneliness and confusion is going to follow you until you find the truth.

My prayers and best wishes for you and your loved ones.
JB

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