Bible Talk > Apologetics

Does God exist?

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macuser:

--- Quote from: obi_donkenobi on October 16, 2018, 07:32:32 pm --->>Fat: Not sure I understand you. Because I exist, therefore God? How does that work?

>>macuser: Yes, quoting the Bible to an atheist is like shoveling coal to into an electric car. Can you provide a reference backing up that Einstein quote? I'm pretty sure he never said any such thing.

>>Hal: I care about others because I am of the human race, evolved to be a social animal that has had empathy and a sense of fairness bred into me. No gods needed, as can easily be proven by the fact that our species would never have survived if it had to wait for Christianity to arrive in order to be moral. Humans understood morality well before Jesus allegedly came on the scene. And that's besides all the immoral edicts in the Bible.

But I did not create the rift. The rift already existed before I was even born. I'm just putting a bit of light on it.

--- End quote ---


Einstein's belief in an intelligent designer thus derived not from a pre-conceived religious bias, but from the phenomenal insights into the Universe that he possessed as the most brilliant scientist who ever lived. His recognition of a creator refutes the recent claims by atheists that belief in any sort of god is unscientific. ( Stephen Caesar)

Newton's religion was traditional. He was a staunch believer in Christianity and a member of the Church of England. Einstein's was a more diffuse belief in a deity who set the rules for everything that occurs in the universe. (Charles Krauthammer)

All people who believe in intelligent design may or may not be creationists. But all people who believe in intelligent design are not creationists. (Freud) believed in an intelligent design, Einstein believed in an intelligent design, and Charles Darwin believed in intelligent design. (Ben Wattenberg)

Einstein, nevertheless, always felt the need to explore religion because he felt so profoundly moved by science.  He defined science and religion as complementary fields, and he proposed a cooperative union in which science offered facts for religious interpretation. Within this system order manifested itself in everything, and its majesty became Einstein’s god. (Benjamin Ogles)


The fundamental law of physics is that matter/energy cannot be destroyed or created, so it has always existed, Einstein believed this.

Does something need a cause to exist? Or can something just appear from nothing?

Hal:

--- Quote --->Hal: I care about others because I am of the human race, evolved to be a social animal that has had empathy and a sense of fairness bred into me. No gods needed, as can easily be proven by the fact that our species would never have survived if it had to wait for Christianity to arrive in order to be moral. Humans understood morality well before Jesus allegedly came on the scene. And that's besides all the immoral edicts in the Bible.

--- End quote ---

So your morals comes from breeding? So the people of Chicago are a product of bad breeding? You think Blacks are bred to a lower morale standard then YOU? You sound like Hitler .

God was on the scene before man, man did not need to wait for Him.

You don’t seem to think things out or at least don’t understand our beliefs.

But you would like to cause rift, good luck.

obi_donkenobi:
>>macuser: Thanks for those references, but aren't you attempting to use the logical fallacy called Appeal to Authority? The fallacy being, just because intelligent or important people believe something doesn't necessarily make it true. That said...

From Wikipedia: Albert Einstein's religious views have been widely studied and often misunderstood.[1] Einstein stated that he believed in the pantheistic God of Baruch Spinoza.[2] He did not believe in a personal God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings, a view which he described as naïve.[3] He clarified however that, "I am not an atheist",[4] preferring to call himself an agnostic,[5] or a "religious nonbeliever."[3] Einstein also stated he did not believe in life after death, adding "one life is enough for me."[6] He was closely involved in his lifetime with several humanist groups.[7][8]

As a pantheist, Einstein believed the physical universe was "divine," in the sense that it was "wondrous," not that it was supernaturally conceived. "I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. (Albert Einstein, 1954)

As to Newton, did you know he was an alchemist? He kept trying to turn lead into gold. This indicates that even brilliant people aren't necessarily right about everything.

>>Hal: In a manner of speaking, yes and no. Morals are learned from the society in which one lives; the basic sense of empathy and fairness are genetic - it's in most of us, in varying degrees, from millions of years of evolutionary process as a social species. Many other social species share a similar sense of empathy and fairness: chimps, dolphins, horses, dogs, etc. It's all evolutionary biology - no gods needed.

How do you know God was here before anything? Do you have any evidence for Him that isn't any better than other gods or supernatural entities humans have believed throughout history, or even currently? See, that's the problem: none of you has any real evidence worthy of your claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You use this truism, yourself, for every other claim you're presented with in life, but not for your god. Why?

macuser:

--- Quote --->>macuser: Thanks for those references, but aren't you attempting to use the logical fallacy called Appeal to Authority? The fallacy being, just because intelligent or important people believe something doesn't necessarily make it true. That said…
--- End quote ---

Absolutely true, and I hope you remember that you said this as this thread moves on.


--- Quote --->>macuser: Yes, quoting the Bible to an atheist is like shoveling coal to into an electric car. Can you provide a reference backing up that Einstein quote? I'm pretty sure he never said any such thing.
--- End quote ---

You ask for the references my friend.



--- Quote ---As a pantheist, Einstein believed the physical universe was "divine," in the sense that it was "wondrous," not that it was supernaturally conceived. "I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. (Albert Einstein, 1954)
--- End quote ---

Definition of pantheism 
1
: a doctrine that equates God with the forces and laws of the universe
2
: the worship of all gods of different creeds, cults, or peoples indifferently
also : toleration of worship of all gods (as at certain periods of the Roman empire)

Pantheism and Religion
Pantheistic ideas—and most importantly the belief that God is equal to the universe, its physical matter, and the forces that govern it—are found in the ancient books of Hinduism, in the works of many Greek philosophers, and in later works of philosophy and religion over the centuries. Much modern New Age spirituality is pantheistic. But most Christian thinkers reject pantheism because it makes God too impersonal, doesn't allow for any difference between the creation and the creator, and doesn't seem to allow for humans to make meaningful moral choices.


Please answer my question: Does something need a cause to exist? Or can something just appear from nothing?

Hal:
Yes morals can be seen in nature's animals, like the grizzly bear who kills the cubs so that their mother will be free to mate with him. Murder for sex, very moral. In your above statement you seem to be saying that society can set the morals of man. I don't think you want to go down that road you're liable to end up in the middle of Hitler's Germany but then again you accept 60 million abortions in the United States alone since Roe V Wade?

As I have always understood it Darwin taught the survival of the fittest not survival  of the fairest or the most empathetic. Do you believe in Darwin's theory? I think that's another whole you don't want to go down. I've always wondered why one species would involve into another species so that the second species could eat the first species. I have always wondered how a how a species developed into two genders. Which came first the chicken or the egg? Where are the one eyed primates, or the grass eating mammals with an eye in the back of their head so that they can see the predator sneaking up on them? You ever wonder how the eye developed into something so sophisticated it could tell the different wavelengths of colored lights? Of course you never wondered, you have no need for that you are an atheist who has total faith from something told him by a person claims to have the truth.

And of course we go back to the basics, if matter/energy cannot be created or destroyed only change form, how do nothing become everything?

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