Does God exist?

[obi_donkenobi]

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If you're agnostic on this question, it means you're not sure. If you're gnostic, it means you're certain. Which are you, and why?

I'm actually an atheist, and my aim is to de-convert as many Christians as possible because belief in anything supernatural is harmful to an individual and society. Belief in gods cause rifts between family members, members and groups within society and entire nations. The divisiveness of religion has always led to hate, conflict, terror, war and death. Belief in the Christian God does provide comfort against the fear of death and oblivion, but it is almost certainly a false comfort and the cost for that benefit (based on falsehoods) is too high.

I don't expect anyone who reads this to suddenly see the logic and truth of what I say and instantly de-convert, but I do hope to plant seeds of doubt which may in the fullness of time lead people out of the errancy of their faith and join me in the real world. I've been here at BibleDiscussion.com before a few years ago, but lost regular access to the Internet and so became dormant. Since then, I notice you have a new anti-blaspheme policy which might get me at least shut down if not outright banned. If that happens, I will see it as an admission that believers cannot withstand challenges to their faith and that their faith must indeed be weak. I will not swear, or become abusive, but I will ask you to defend your beliefs and to do so with an open mind. There is so much wrong with the Bible and all supernatural religions and beliefs, it's literally tearing this world apart. I don't intend to sit idly by and let that happen without at least speaking up.

[Fat]

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Yes, because, well let’s start off with the fact that you exist.

Welcome to our small corner of the internet.

Fat

[macuser]

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How about the existence of hydrogen atom.
Even Einstein conceded that all matter was a product of intelligent design.

[Hal]

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I can see that I won’t need my Bible for this thread.

If you are an atheist, why would you care about others? What does my family have anything to do with you? Do you consider that if you sway only one member of a family to UNCONVERT you may be bringing strife into that family that was once a congenial family unit?

Your O. P. is an attempt to cause Rift.

[obi_donkenobi]

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>>Fat: Not sure I understand you. Because I exist, therefore God? How does that work?

>>macuser: Yes, quoting the Bible to an atheist is like shoveling coal to into an electric car. Can you provide a reference backing up that Einstein quote? I'm pretty sure he never said any such thing.

>>Hal: I care about others because I am of the human race, evolved to be a social animal that has had empathy and a sense of fairness bred into me. No gods needed, as can easily be proven by the fact that our species would never have survived if it had to wait for Christianity to arrive in order to be moral. Humans understood morality well before Jesus allegedly came on the scene. And that's besides all the immoral edicts in the Bible.

But I did not create the rift. The rift already existed before I was even born. I'm just putting a bit of light on it.

[macuser]

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>>Fat: Not sure I understand you. Because I exist, therefore God? How does that work?

>>macuser: Yes, quoting the Bible to an atheist is like shoveling coal to into an electric car. Can you provide a reference backing up that Einstein quote? I'm pretty sure he never said any such thing.

>>Hal: I care about others because I am of the human race, evolved to be a social animal that has had empathy and a sense of fairness bred into me. No gods needed, as can easily be proven by the fact that our species would never have survived if it had to wait for Christianity to arrive in order to be moral. Humans understood morality well before Jesus allegedly came on the scene. And that's besides all the immoral edicts in the Bible.

But I did not create the rift. The rift already existed before I was even born. I'm just putting a bit of light on it.

Einstein's belief in an intelligent designer thus derived not from a pre-conceived religious bias, but from the phenomenal insights into the Universe that he possessed as the most brilliant scientist who ever lived. His recognition of a creator refutes the recent claims by atheists that belief in any sort of god is unscientific. ( Stephen Caesar)

Newton's religion was traditional. He was a staunch believer in Christianity and a member of the Church of England. Einstein's was a more diffuse belief in a deity who set the rules for everything that occurs in the universe. (Charles Krauthammer)

All people who believe in intelligent design may or may not be creationists. But all people who believe in intelligent design are not creationists. (Freud) believed in an intelligent design, Einstein believed in an intelligent design, and Charles Darwin believed in intelligent design. (Ben Wattenberg)

Einstein, nevertheless, always felt the need to explore religion because he felt so profoundly moved by science.  He defined science and religion as complementary fields, and he proposed a cooperative union in which science offered facts for religious interpretation. Within this system order manifested itself in everything, and its majesty became Einstein’s god. (Benjamin Ogles)


The fundamental law of physics is that matter/energy cannot be destroyed or created, so it has always existed, Einstein believed this.

Does something need a cause to exist? Or can something just appear from nothing?

[Hal]

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>Hal: I care about others because I am of the human race, evolved to be a social animal that has had empathy and a sense of fairness bred into me. No gods needed, as can easily be proven by the fact that our species would never have survived if it had to wait for Christianity to arrive in order to be moral. Humans understood morality well before Jesus allegedly came on the scene. And that's besides all the immoral edicts in the Bible.

So your morals comes from breeding? So the people of Chicago are a product of bad breeding? You think Blacks are bred to a lower morale standard then YOU? You sound like Hitler .

God was on the scene before man, man did not need to wait for Him.

You don’t seem to think things out or at least don’t understand our beliefs.

But you would like to cause rift, good luck.

[obi_donkenobi]

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>>macuser: Thanks for those references, but aren't you attempting to use the logical fallacy called Appeal to Authority? The fallacy being, just because intelligent or important people believe something doesn't necessarily make it true. That said...

From Wikipedia: Albert Einstein's religious views have been widely studied and often misunderstood.[1] Einstein stated that he believed in the pantheistic God of Baruch Spinoza.[2] He did not believe in a personal God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings, a view which he described as naïve.[3] He clarified however that, "I am not an atheist",[4] preferring to call himself an agnostic,[5] or a "religious nonbeliever."[3] Einstein also stated he did not believe in life after death, adding "one life is enough for me."[6] He was closely involved in his lifetime with several humanist groups.[7][8]

As a pantheist, Einstein believed the physical universe was "divine," in the sense that it was "wondrous," not that it was supernaturally conceived. "I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. (Albert Einstein, 1954)

As to Newton, did you know he was an alchemist? He kept trying to turn lead into gold. This indicates that even brilliant people aren't necessarily right about everything.

>>Hal: In a manner of speaking, yes and no. Morals are learned from the society in which one lives; the basic sense of empathy and fairness are genetic - it's in most of us, in varying degrees, from millions of years of evolutionary process as a social species. Many other social species share a similar sense of empathy and fairness: chimps, dolphins, horses, dogs, etc. It's all evolutionary biology - no gods needed.

How do you know God was here before anything? Do you have any evidence for Him that isn't any better than other gods or supernatural entities humans have believed throughout history, or even currently? See, that's the problem: none of you has any real evidence worthy of your claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You use this truism, yourself, for every other claim you're presented with in life, but not for your god. Why?

[macuser]

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>>macuser: Thanks for those references, but aren't you attempting to use the logical fallacy called Appeal to Authority? The fallacy being, just because intelligent or important people believe something doesn't necessarily make it true. That said…

Absolutely true, and I hope you remember that you said this as this thread moves on.

>>macuser: Yes, quoting the Bible to an atheist is like shoveling coal to into an electric car. Can you provide a reference backing up that Einstein quote? I'm pretty sure he never said any such thing.

You ask for the references my friend.

As a pantheist, Einstein believed the physical universe was "divine," in the sense that it was "wondrous," not that it was supernaturally conceived. "I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. (Albert Einstein, 1954)

Definition of pantheism 
1
: a doctrine that equates God with the forces and laws of the universe
2
: the worship of all gods of different creeds, cults, or peoples indifferently
also : toleration of worship of all gods (as at certain periods of the Roman empire)

Pantheism and Religion
Pantheistic ideas—and most importantly the belief that God is equal to the universe, its physical matter, and the forces that govern it—are found in the ancient books of Hinduism, in the works of many Greek philosophers, and in later works of philosophy and religion over the centuries. Much modern New Age spirituality is pantheistic. But most Christian thinkers reject pantheism because it makes God too impersonal, doesn't allow for any difference between the creation and the creator, and doesn't seem to allow for humans to make meaningful moral choices.


Please answer my question: Does something need a cause to exist? Or can something just appear from nothing?

[Hal]

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Yes morals can be seen in nature's animals, like the grizzly bear who kills the cubs so that their mother will be free to mate with him. Murder for sex, very moral. In your above statement you seem to be saying that society can set the morals of man. I don't think you want to go down that road you're liable to end up in the middle of Hitler's Germany but then again you accept 60 million abortions in the United States alone since Roe V Wade?

As I have always understood it Darwin taught the survival of the fittest not survival  of the fairest or the most empathetic. Do you believe in Darwin's theory? I think that's another whole you don't want to go down. I've always wondered why one species would involve into another species so that the second species could eat the first species. I have always wondered how a how a species developed into two genders. Which came first the chicken or the egg? Where are the one eyed primates, or the grass eating mammals with an eye in the back of their head so that they can see the predator sneaking up on them? You ever wonder how the eye developed into something so sophisticated it could tell the different wavelengths of colored lights? Of course you never wondered, you have no need for that you are an atheist who has total faith from something told him by a person claims to have the truth.

And of course we go back to the basics, if matter/energy cannot be created or destroyed only change form, how do nothing become everything?

[Fat]

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Hey Obi, you can speed this up by simply providing there is no God.

Please just list the evidence so we can end this.

[JB Horn]

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Hello Obi,

I would like to know a little more about your beliefs. The way I see it the universe could only come about in one of three ways.

1) It appeared for no reason and no cause, from absolutely nothing.
2) It has always existed, no starting time, no beginning.
3) It was created.

What do believe?

JB

[obi_donkenobi]

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Absolutely true, and I hope you remember that you said this as this thread moves on.

>>macuser: While I'm glad to see you understand the logical fallacy, Appeal to Authority, I'm then forced to wonder why you employed it. You also seem to think I'm going to use it at some point, too. I don't intend to.

You ask for the references my friend.

Definition of pantheism
1: a doctrine that equates God with the forces and laws of the universe
2: the worship of all gods of different creeds, cults, or peoples indifferently
also : toleration of worship of all gods (as at certain periods of the Roman empire)

Pantheism and Religion
Pantheistic ideas—and most importantly the belief that God is equal to the universe, its physical matter, and the forces that govern it—are found in the ancient books of Hinduism, in the works of many Greek philosophers, and in later works of philosophy and religion over the centuries. Much modern New Age spirituality is pantheistic. But most Christian thinkers reject pantheism because it makes God too impersonal, doesn't allow for any difference between the creation and the creator, and doesn't seem to allow for humans to make meaningful moral choices.

This is actually a point from another thread (Is the Bible truly God's word?), which I will respond to, there.

Please answer my question: Does something need a cause to exist? Or can something just appear from nothing?

I'd be happy to: I don't know, but then again, I don't think anybody really knows. Theists claim to know, but their "knowledge" is faith-based, and faith is not a reliable path to truth, is it? And the logical extension to your question has to be: If something cannot come from nothing, then where did God come from? Theists usually then say God is eternal, but couldn't the non-theist just as easily say that the universe is eternal and skip the whole eternal entity question altogether? Having answers to the tough questions can be comforting, but isn't that only if one ignores the fact that the answers may not be true?

The theistic answer to the question of origin is based on a deduction made without sufficient data. In the human experience, everything we are aware of in reality had a cause for its existence. So, it seemed logical that the universe must have also had a cause. But I would posit that without good evidence of the cause (God), the best to be done is to consider the proposition of origin to be a hypothesis that needs further investigation to find any evidence for it. Theists have not done this, and skipped on to belief/faith, which isn't logical and as already mentioned, not reliable. One look through history and at the current state of affairs tells us that humans have been creating supernatural entities for as long as we've been around - hundreds of them. We are genetically prone to doing this - this doesn't make any of it necessarily real, does it?

[obi_donkenobi]

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Yes morals can be seen in nature's animals, like the grizzly bear who kills the cubs so that their mother will be free to mate with him. Murder for sex, very moral. In your above statement you seem to be saying that society can set the morals of man. I don't think you want to go down that road you're liable to end up in the middle of Hitler's Germany but then again you accept 60 million abortions in the United States alone since Roe V Wade?

>>Hal: Bears don't commit "murder." "Murder" is a human concept of killing without socially accepted reasons. Through scientific study, we think some non-social species kill the babies of competitors to ensure their own genetic line prevails. As a social species, we may not like it, but biologically, it makes sense, and we have no cause to try transposing our human morality on non-human species. Doesn't that make sense?

Society does set the morals of the peoples within their specific groups. Indians (from India) can't kill cows, Americans don't eat dogs, the Japanese find comics like "Rapeman" acceptable, etc. Or the Hitler thing. It's not a question of whether I want to "go down that road," or not. It is what it is, wouldn't you agree?

As I have always understood it Darwin taught the survival of the fittest not survival  of the fairest or the most empathetic. Do you believe in Darwin's theory? I think that's another whole you don't want to go down. I've always wondered why one species would involve into another species so that the second species could eat the first species. I have always wondered how a how a species developed into two genders. Which came first the chicken or the egg? Where are the one eyed primates, or the grass eating mammals with an eye in the back of their head so that they can see the predator sneaking up on them? You ever wonder how the eye developed into something so sophisticated it could tell the different wavelengths of colored lights? Of course you never wondered, you have no need for that you are an atheist who has total faith from something told him by a person claims to have the truth.

Actually, Darwin coined the term "natural selection," and after reading Darwin's On The Origin of Species, biologist, anthropologist, sociologist Herbert Spencer re-phrased it to "survival of the fittest," which Darwin had no problem with. I don't "believe" in Darwin's theory, but I do recognize it as humankind's best explanation for the diversity of life on this planet and is one of the most solidly factual theories in all of science.

Please be aware there's more than one definition of the word, "theory." Used colloquially, it means, "best guess," but in the scientific use, it means, an explanation of an aspect of the natural world that can be repeatedly tested, in accordance with the scientific method, using a predefined protocol of observation and experiment. Established scientific theories have withstood rigorous scrutiny and embody scientific knowledge.

In science, as far as what we humans know with regard to the real world, a "theory" is the pinnacle of our knowledge in a subject. The wonderful thing about science is, if a theory is proven flawed, it's updated to incorporate the new knowledge, making it an even more accurate description of reality - it just gets better and better. It is not considered to be the immutable and never-changing proclamation of Truth. Be glad we have scientific theories; they give us every modern amenity you can think of: flight, electricity, computers, instant knowledge via the Internet, safe food/housing/cars/buildings, etc., etc., ad infinitum.

And of course we go back to the basics, if matter/energy cannot be created or destroyed only change form, how do nothing become everything?

And to your last question re something from nothing: I don't know, but then again, nobody really knows. Theists claim to know, but their "knowledge" is faith-based, and faith is not a reliable path to truth, is it? And the logical extension to your question has to be: If something cannot come from nothing, then where did God come from? Theists could say God was eternal, but couldn't the non-theist just as easily say that the universe is eternal and skip the whole eternal entity question altogether?

[obi_donkenobi]

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Hey Obi, you can speed this up by simply providing there is no God.
Please just list the evidence so we can end this.

>>Fat: First, are you aware that it's impossible to prove a negative? So asking me to prove there is no God is not a viable question. Second, it isn't my position that there is no god or gods; maybe there is or are. I am simply un-convinced that your claim for a Christian God is true. I am not making a positive claim - I am doubting your claim. You now have the Burden of Proof to show such a thing exists in reality, and I'm pretty certain you can't. Can you?