Poll

Should churches yoked themselves with other churches they feel are in error?

No
4 (66.7%)
Yes
2 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 5

Author Topic: Unity amongst the denominations - a dilemma  (Read 19386 times)

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Zant Law

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Re: Unity amongst the denominations - a dilemma
« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2012, 05:21:43 pm »
Jesus told the apostles to baptize, and they did, including entire househholds.  Households include extended families and servants.

What evidence do you have that there were no infants and small children in these households?

The Bible is not a mystery God told us what is important and is in the Scriptures. What he told us about baptism is that a person must have knowledge of Christ. Can you give any other reason why the question was put the Philip and recorded in the scripture?

If what you say is true why don't you find the Catholic priest who has a pilot license, load up a cropduster with holy water and have him fly over East Los Angeles and save everyone?


chestertonrules

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Re: Unity amongst the denominations - a dilemma
« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2012, 05:27:04 pm »
The Bible is not a mystery God told us what is important and is in the Scriptures. What he told us about baptism is that a person must have knowledge of Christ. Can you give any other reason why the question was put the Philip and recorded in the scripture?

If what you say is true why don't you find the Catholic priest who has a pilot license, load up a cropduster with holy water and have him fly over East Los Angeles and save everyone?

You claim to know that infant baptism is not biblical, yet you can show no proof that infants were not baptized when the bible tells us that entire households were baptized.  We have early Christian writings which state that the apostles taught that infants should be baptized.  Why should I believe you?

chestertonrules

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Re: Unity amongst the denominations - a dilemma
« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2012, 05:29:41 pm »
You claim to know that infant baptism is not biblical, yet you can show no proof that infants were not baptized when the bible tells us that entire households were baptized.  We have early Christian writings which state that the apostles taught that infants should be baptized.  Why should I believe you?

More biblical support for infant baptism:

Acts 2:39 - Peter then says baptism is specifically given to children as well as adults. “Those far off” refers to those who were at their “homes” (primarily infants and children). God's covenant family includes children. The word "children" that Peter used comes from the Greek word "teknon" which also includes infants.



Luke 1:59 - this proves that "teknon" includes infants. Here, John as a "teknon" (infant) was circumcised. See also Acts 21:21 which uses “teknon” for eight-day old babies. So baptism is for infants as well as adults.

Acts 10:47-48 - Peter baptized the entire house of Cornelius, which generally included infants and young children. There is not one word in Scripture about baptism being limited to adults.

Acts 16:15 - Paul baptized Lydia and her entire household. The word "household" comes from the Greek word "oikos" which is a household that includes infants and children.

Acts 16:15 - further, Paul baptizes the household based on Lydia's faith, not the faith of the members of the household. This demonstrates that parents can present their children for baptism based on the parents' faith, not the children's faith.

Acts 16:30-33 - it was only the adults who were candidates for baptism that had to profess a belief in Jesus. This is consistent with the Church's practice of instructing catechumens before baptism. But this verse does not support a "believer's baptism" requirement for everyone. See Acts 16:15,33. The earlier one comes to baptism, the better. For those who come to baptism as adults, the Church has always required them to profess their belief in Christ. For babies who come to baptism, the Church has always required the parents to profess the belief in Christ on behalf of the baby. But there is nothing in the Scriptures about a requirement for ALL baptism candidates to profess their own belief in Christ (because the Church has baptized babies for 2,000 years).

Acts 16:33 - Paul baptized the jailer (an adult) and his entire household (which had to include children). Baptism is never limited to adults and those of the age of reason. See also Luke 19:9; John 4:53; Acts 11:14; 1 Cor. 1:16; and 1 Tim. 3:12; Gen. 31:41; 36:6; 41:51; Joshua 24:15; 2 Sam. 7:11, 1 Chron. 10:6 which shows “oikos” generally includes children.

Rom. 5:12 - sin came through Adam and death through sin. Babies' souls are affected by Adam's sin and need baptism just like adult souls.

Rom. 5:15 - the grace of Jesus Christ surpasses that of the Old Covenant. So children can also enter the new Covenant in baptism. From a Jewish perspective, it would have been unthinkable to exclude infants and children from God's Covenant kingdom.

1 Cor. 1:16 - Paul baptized the household ("oikos") of Stephanus. Baptism is not limited to adults.

Eph. 1:1; Col. 1:2 - Paul addresses the "saints" of the Church, and these include the children he addresses in Eph. 6:1 and Col. 3:20. Children become saints of the Church only through baptism.

Eph. 2:3 - we are all by nature children of wrath, in sin, like all mankind. Infants are no exception. See also Psalm 51:5 and Job 14:1-4 which teach us we are conceived in sin and born unclean.

2 Thess. 3:10 - if anyone does not work let him not eat. But this implies that those who are unable to work should still be able to eat. Babies should not starve because they are unable to work, and should also not be denied baptism because they are unable to make a declaration of faith.

Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:3-5 - the faith of those who brought in the paralytic cured the paralytic's sins. This is an example of the forgiveness of sins based on another's faith, just like infant baptism. The infant child is forgiven of sin based on the parents' faith.

Matt. 8:5-13 - the servant is healed based upon the centurion's faith. This is another example of healing based on another's faith. If Jesus can heal us based on someone else’s faith, then He can baptize us based on someone else’s faith as well.

Mark 9:22-25 - Jesus exercises the child's unclean spirit based on the father's faith. This healing is again based on another's faith.

1 Cor. 7:14 – Paul says that children are sanctified by God through the belief of only one of their parents.

Exodus 12:24-28 - the Passover was based on the parent's faith. If they did not kill and eat the lamb, their first-born child died.

Joshua 5:2-7 - God punished Israel because the people had not circumcised their children. This was based on the parent's faith. The parents play a critical role in their child's salvation.


Zant Law

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Re: Unity amongst the denominations - a dilemma
« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2012, 05:38:42 pm »
More biblical support for infant baptism:

Acts 2:39 - Peter then says baptism is specifically given to children as well as adults. “Those far off” refers to those who were at their “homes” (primarily infants and children). God's covenant family includes children. The word "children" that Peter used comes from the Greek word "teknon" which also includes infants.



Luke 1:59 - this proves that "teknon" includes infants. Here, John as a "teknon" (infant) was circumcised. See also Acts 21:21 which uses “teknon” for eight-day old babies. So baptism is for infants as well as adults.

Acts 10:47-48 - Peter baptized the entire house of Cornelius, which generally included infants and young children. There is not one word in Scripture about baptism being limited to adults.

Acts 16:15 - Paul baptized Lydia and her entire household. The word "household" comes from the Greek word "oikos" which is a household that includes infants and children.

Acts 16:15 - further, Paul baptizes the household based on Lydia's faith, not the faith of the members of the household. This demonstrates that parents can present their children for baptism based on the parents' faith, not the children's faith.

Acts 16:30-33 - it was only the adults who were candidates for baptism that had to profess a belief in Jesus. This is consistent with the Church's practice of instructing catechumens before baptism. But this verse does not support a "believer's baptism" requirement for everyone. See Acts 16:15,33. The earlier one comes to baptism, the better. For those who come to baptism as adults, the Church has always required them to profess their belief in Christ. For babies who come to baptism, the Church has always required the parents to profess the belief in Christ on behalf of the baby. But there is nothing in the Scriptures about a requirement for ALL baptism candidates to profess their own belief in Christ (because the Church has baptized babies for 2,000 years).

Acts 16:33 - Paul baptized the jailer (an adult) and his entire household (which had to include children). Baptism is never limited to adults and those of the age of reason. See also Luke 19:9; John 4:53; Acts 11:14; 1 Cor. 1:16; and 1 Tim. 3:12; Gen. 31:41; 36:6; 41:51; Joshua 24:15; 2 Sam. 7:11, 1 Chron. 10:6 which shows “oikos” generally includes children.

Rom. 5:12 - sin came through Adam and death through sin. Babies' souls are affected by Adam's sin and need baptism just like adult souls.

Rom. 5:15 - the grace of Jesus Christ surpasses that of the Old Covenant. So children can also enter the new Covenant in baptism. From a Jewish perspective, it would have been unthinkable to exclude infants and children from God's Covenant kingdom.

1 Cor. 1:16 - Paul baptized the household ("oikos") of Stephanus. Baptism is not limited to adults.

Eph. 1:1; Col. 1:2 - Paul addresses the "saints" of the Church, and these include the children he addresses in Eph. 6:1 and Col. 3:20. Children become saints of the Church only through baptism.

Eph. 2:3 - we are all by nature children of wrath, in sin, like all mankind. Infants are no exception. See also Psalm 51:5 and Job 14:1-4 which teach us we are conceived in sin and born unclean.

2 Thess. 3:10 - if anyone does not work let him not eat. But this implies that those who are unable to work should still be able to eat. Babies should not starve because they are unable to work, and should also not be denied baptism because they are unable to make a declaration of faith.

Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:3-5 - the faith of those who brought in the paralytic cured the paralytic's sins. This is an example of the forgiveness of sins based on another's faith, just like infant baptism. The infant child is forgiven of sin based on the parents' faith.

Matt. 8:5-13 - the servant is healed based upon the centurion's faith. This is another example of healing based on another's faith. If Jesus can heal us based on someone else’s faith, then He can baptize us based on someone else’s faith as well.

Mark 9:22-25 - Jesus exercises the child's unclean spirit based on the father's faith. This healing is again based on another's faith.

1 Cor. 7:14 – Paul says that children are sanctified by God through the belief of only one of their parents.

Exodus 12:24-28 - the Passover was based on the parent's faith. If they did not kill and eat the lamb, their first-born child died.

Joshua 5:2-7 - God punished Israel because the people had not circumcised their children. This was based on the parent's faith. The parents play a critical role in their child's salvation.

Not one, not one verse can you give me.
By the way New Testament circumcision is circumcision of the heart apparently never got that for the Bible.

Romans 2:29 KJV
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly ; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

chestertonrules

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Re: Unity amongst the denominations - a dilemma
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2012, 07:09:21 pm »
Not one, not one verse can you give me.
By the way New Testament circumcision is circumcision of the heart apparently never got that for the Bible.

Romans 2:29 KJV
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly ; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

I've given you many verses which make it clear that baptism was not to be denied anyone.

You have provided no verses that say that infants and small children were not baptized.  All you have to offer is your man made opinion.

Zant Law

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Re: Unity amongst the denominations - a dilemma
« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2012, 07:18:59 pm »
I've given you many verses which make it clear that baptism was not to be denied anyone.

You have provided no verses that say that infants and small children were not baptized.  All you have to offer is your man made opinion.

LOL. Can you show me any verses that prove chickens were not baptized?

So now Philip lied to the Egyptian.

Go to mass and read your prayer, tell Mary I said hi, and thanks for raising my Savior. Let me know if you see any tears on her statue.

biblebuf

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Re: Unity amongst the denominations - a dilemma
« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2012, 07:55:45 pm »
Interesting.
The question was asked by somebody why didn't Christ baptize, every Christian, well most anyway, can answer that question but I've never seen a Catholic or a Mormon able answer it.

Ever wonder how many Bibles are just sitting around in bookshelves collecting dust?

chestertonrules

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Re: Unity amongst the denominations - a dilemma
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2012, 06:27:54 am »
Interesting.
The question was asked by somebody why didn't Christ baptize, every Christian, well most anyway, can answer that question but I've never seen a Catholic or a Mormon able answer it.

Ever wonder how many Bibles are just sitting around in bookshelves collecting dust?

Catholics believe the entire bible, not just selected excerpts.

Catholics believe that the apostles were the leaders of the Church Jesus founded.  Catholics believe that Jesus gave the apostles the authority to make rules regarding faith and morals, including the authority to appoint successors.  Catholics believe that Jesus gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins in his name.  Catholics believe that the gates of Hell have not prevailed against the Church Jesus started.  Catholics believe that we must eat the body and drink the blood of Jesus as he instructed.  Catholics believe that Jesus is with the Church until the end of the world.  Catholics believe that those who live and believe in Christ will never die.  Catholics believe that disputes among believers should be resolved by the Church.  Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit is leading the Church into ALL truth.


Protestants reject these biblical truths.


FYI: 

John 3:22
22After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized.

biblebuf

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Re: Unity amongst the denominations - a dilemma
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2012, 07:41:11 am »
Catholics believe the entire bible, not just selected excerpts.

Catholics believe that the apostles were the leaders of the Church Jesus founded.  Catholics believe that Jesus gave the apostles the authority to make rules regarding faith and morals, including the authority to appoint successors.  Catholics believe that Jesus gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins in his name.  Catholics believe that the gates of Hell have not prevailed against the Church Jesus started.  Catholics believe that we must eat the body and drink the blood of Jesus as he instructed.  Catholics believe that Jesus is with the Church until the end of the world.  Catholics believe that those who live and believe in Christ will never die.  Catholics believe that disputes among believers should be resolved by the Church.  Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit is leading the Church into ALL truth.


Protestants reject these biblical truths.


FYI: 

John 3:22
22After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized.

If you're going to debate a subject you should study it first. Before you debate the Bible you should read it.

Look down a few verses from John 3:22 to John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, 2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)  KJV

Are you making the claim that Jesus did baptize with water? Is this what your church teaches?

chestertonrules

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Re: Unity amongst the denominations - a dilemma
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2012, 08:01:38 am »
If you're going to debate a subject you should study it first. Before you debate the Bible you should read it.

Look down a few verses from John 3:22 to John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, 2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)  KJV

Are you making the claim that Jesus did baptize with water? Is this what your church teaches?

That's what the bible says. 

This might not be a contradiction. John 3:22 doesn't say who Jesus baptized at that time. It might mean that he baptized his disciples at that time.

We also might consider the possibility that Jesus performed baptisms at first, until the number of people arriving for baptism became so great that he was required to delegate the baptism to his disciples.

biblebuf

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Re: Unity amongst the denominations - a dilemma
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2012, 09:01:49 am »
That's what the bible says. 

This might not be a contradiction. John 3:22 doesn't say who Jesus baptized at that time. It might mean that he baptized his disciples at that time.

We also might consider the possibility that Jesus performed baptisms at first, until the number of people arriving for baptism became so great that he was required to delegate the baptism to his disciples.

Is it your belief that Christ baptized while He was on earth and is that what your church teaches?

chestertonrules

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Re: Unity amongst the denominations - a dilemma
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2012, 09:21:43 am »
Is it your belief that Christ baptized while He was on earth and is that what your church teaches?

The Church doesn't take a position because scripture and tradition are ambiguous.

How is it relevant to your relationship with Jesus?

biblebuf

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Re: Unity amongst the denominations - a dilemma
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2012, 09:31:22 am »
The Church doesn't take a position because scripture and tradition are ambiguous.

How is it relevant to your relationship with Jesus?

Ambiguous!

Deuteronomy 18:22 KJV
 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass , that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken , but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him


Do believe Deuteronomy 18:22 to be true?

It is relevant because we grow close to Christ by reading the Word.

chestertonrules

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Re: Unity amongst the denominations - a dilemma
« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2012, 09:53:56 am »
Ambiguous!

Deuteronomy 18:22 KJV
 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass , that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken , but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him


Do believe Deuteronomy 18:22 to be true?

It is relevant because we grow close to Christ by reading the Word.

The Word said that Jesus baptized.  That's why it is ambiguous.  You feel comfortable ignoring scripture and following your own man made opinion.  That's your right.

St. Jerome- "Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ."

biblebuf

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Re: Unity amongst the denominations - a dilemma
« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2012, 10:21:25 am »
The Word said that Jesus baptized.  That's why it is ambiguous.  You feel comfortable ignoring scripture and following your own man made opinion.  That's your right.

St. Jerome- "Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ."
And you refuse to study the scripture.

Do believe Deuteronomy 18:22 to be true?

I am repairing a deck right now and have to run back inside everytime my iPhone beeps so please answer the question.