Unity amongst the denominations - a dilemma

[Fat]

• 

A lot of churches nowadays are asking for unity amongst the denominations. They had the idea that the church should band together to accomplish a single purpose. This may be for the purpose of feeding the poor, ministering to prisoners, or is one preacher said pushing the darkness out of the city.

 At first glance this looks very appealing but it leads to the question why are these denominations separated in the first place? It cannot be a small thing for a group of Christians to feel that there doctrine is so different from others that they must break away and form their own denomination. It's obvious that these denominations must feel that the other denominations are in error, this error being serious enough for them to turn from that church or denomination and form their own church. Some of these differences may be manifested by accusations of a false gospel or a loss of salvation. Such is the case when the nominations argue over the deity of Christ, or sacraments the necessary for salvation.

There is quite a dilemma here, on the one hand we have chosen to be separate from each other, but on the other hand we see a common need for our community. It may very well be that these needs cannot be accomplished by one church within the community. Is it possible for the different denominations to work together without yoking themselves together? Can the work be divided up so that each church will be able to do its part without appearing to condone the doctrine and teachings of the other churches? Maybe the work could be semi-anonymous for assets at a food bank it might be called Christian food center. Then there could be a list of churches that are supporting the food center available to those receiving the benefits.

In any case working next to somebody who you believe is condemned to hell and that is calling himself a Christian the same is you represent yourself to be, would not really foster unity in my estimation.

[Hal]

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I don't like the way you phrased your poll question.

How about, Should churches set-aside their differences for the good of the body?

[Fat]

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I don't like the way you phrased your poll question.

How about, Should churches set-aside their differences for the good of the body?

That is the neat thing about starting your own thread you can write the polls anyway you want to. You are not required to participate in the poll if you don't want to Hal.

[macuser]

• 

I voted yes in your poll, and the reason is is I think there are places where we can work together. I agree with Hal, I think that the word yoke is a little bit strong for your question. Whenever you have a chance you should make it clear to those observing what you're doing that you have doctrine or theological differences with the other churches.

[chestertonrules]

• 

A lot of churches nowadays are asking for unity amongst the denominations. They had the idea that the church should band together to accomplish a single purpose. This may be for the purpose of feeding the poor, ministering to prisoners, or is one preacher said pushing the darkness out of the city.

 At first glance this looks very appealing but it leads to the question why are these denominations separated in the first place? It cannot be a small thing for a group of Christians to feel that there doctrine is so different from others that they must break away and form their own denomination. It's obvious that these denominations must feel that the other denominations are in error, this error being serious enough for them to turn from that church or denomination and form their own church. Some of these differences may be manifested by accusations of a false gospel or a loss of salvation. Such is the case when the nominations argue over the deity of Christ, or sacraments the necessary for salvation.

There is quite a dilemma here, on the one hand we have chosen to be separate from each other, but on the other hand we see a common need for our community. It may very well be that these needs cannot be accomplished by one church within the community. Is it possible for the different denominations to work together without yoking themselves together? Can the work be divided up so that each church will be able to do its part without appearing to condone the doctrine and teachings of the other churches? Maybe the work could be semi-anonymous for assets at a food bank it might be called Christian food center. Then there could be a list of churches that are supporting the food center available to those receiving the benefits.

In any case working next to somebody who you believe is condemned to hell and that is calling himself a Christian the same is you represent yourself to be, would not really foster unity in my estimation.

Jesus only started one Church.

[Zant Law]

• 

Jesus only started one Church.

1) He used the small 'c' for church.

2) How many churches does Christ address in the book of Revelation?

3) The use of the word church in the bible referres to assembly of believers.

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
 Strong's Number:   1577    
Original Word   Word Origin
ejkklhsiva   from a compound of (1537) and a derivative of (2564)
Transliterated Word   TDNT Entry
Ekklesia   3:501,394
Phonetic Spelling   Parts of Speech
ek-klay-see'-ah      Noun Feminine
 Definition
a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly
an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
the assembly of the Israelites
any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
in a Christian sense
an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake
those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body
the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven

[chestertonrules]

• 

1) He used the small 'c' for church.

2) How many churches does Christ address in the book of Revelation?

3) The use of the word church in the bible referres to assembly of believers.

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
 Strong's Number:   1577    
Original Word   Word Origin
ejkklhsiva   from a compound of (1537) and a derivative of (2564)
Transliterated Word   TDNT Entry
Ekklesia   3:501,394
Phonetic Spelling   Parts of Speech
ek-klay-see'-ah      Noun Feminine
 Definition
a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly
an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
the assembly of the Israelites
any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
in a Christian sense
an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake
those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body
the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven

1) So?  He only started one.

2) Those are locations, not separate churches.  Just like the Christians in Antioch referred to the leaders of "the Church" as being in Jerusalem.   The Church at "such and such a location" is not a unique Church, but a unique location.

3) True.  An assembly of believers with known beliefs and leaders with authority who are to be obeyed.

[Zant Law]

• 

1) So?  He only started one.

2) Those are locations, not separate churches.  Just like the Christians in Antioch referred to the leaders of "the Church" as being in Jerusalem.   The Church at "such and such a location" is not a unique Church, but a unique location.

3) True.  An assembly of believers with known beliefs and leaders with authority who are to be obeyed.

Like I said Fat used a small 'c'hurch not a big 'C'hurch'.
The big 'C'hurch' has no one location until the rapture. It would be more correct to call the big 'C'hurch' the Body of Christ or the Bride of Christ.

[chestertonrules]

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Like I said Fat used a small 'c'hurch not a big 'C'hurch'.
The big 'C'hurch' has no one location until the rapture. It would be more correct to call the big 'C'hurch' the Body of Christ or the Bride of Christ.

I agree that location is irrelevant.  However, leadership and authority are important.  Jesus started a single church with authority and that church still is led by this same authority.  The successors of the apostles lead the catholic  church.  Every priest has had hands laid on them by a bishop who was anointed by a bishop, etc., all the way back to the apostles.

[Zant Law]

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I agree that location is irrelevant.  However, leadership and authority are important.  Jesus started a single church with authority and that church still is led by this same authority.  The successors of the apostles lead the catholic  church.  Every priest has had hands laid on them by a bishop who was anointed by a bishop, etc., all the way back to the apostles.

Peter, as an apostle, had no successor in his office; nor was he bishop of Rome.

[chestertonrules]

• 

Peter, as an apostle, had no successor in his office; nor was he bishop of Rome.

You are wrong.  You have been misinformed.  I once believed as you do, but I formed my opinion without first learning the facts.


"And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture a certain place, 'I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.'... Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry...For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties." Pope Clement, Epistle to Corinthians, 42, 44 (A.D. 98).


"For what is the bishop but one who beyond all others possesses all power and authority, so far as it is possible for a man to possess it, who according to his ability has been made an imitator of the Christ off God? And what is the presbytery but a sacred assembly, the counselors and assessors of the bishop? And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers, fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him, as Anencletus and Clement to Peter?" Ignatius, To the Trallians, 7 (A.D. 110).

'You have thus by such an admonition bound together the plantings of Peter and Paul at Rome and Corinth." Dionysius of Corinth, Epistle to Pope Soter, fragment in Eusebius' Church History, II:25 (c. A.D. 178).

"Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:1:1 (c. A.D. 180).

"The church of God which sojourns at Rome to the church of God which sojourns at Corinth ... But if any disobey the words spoken by him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger." Clement of Rome, Pope, 1st Epistle to the Corinthians, 1,59:1 (c. A.D. 96).

"And he says to him again after the resurrection, 'Feed my sheep.' It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church's) oneness. No doubt the others were all that Peter was, but a primacy is given to Peter, and it is (thus) made clear that there is but one flock which is to be fed by all the apostles in common accord. If a man does not hold fast to this oneness of Peter, does he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church? This unity firmly should we hold and maintain, especially we bishops, presiding in the Church, in order that we may approve the episcopate itself to be the one and undivided." Cyprian, The Unity of the Church, 4-5 (A.D. 251-256).

[Zant Law]

• 

You are wrong.  You have been misinformed.  I once believed as you do, but I formed my opinion without first learning the facts.


"And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture a certain place, 'I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.'... Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry...For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties." Pope Clement, Epistle to Corinthians, 42, 44 (A.D. 98).


"For what is the bishop but one who beyond all others possesses all power and authority, so far as it is possible for a man to possess it, who according to his ability has been made an imitator of the Christ off God? And what is the presbytery but a sacred assembly, the counselors and assessors of the bishop? And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers, fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him, as Anencletus and Clement to Peter?" Ignatius, To the Trallians, 7 (A.D. 110).

'You have thus by such an admonition bound together the plantings of Peter and Paul at Rome and Corinth." Dionysius of Corinth, Epistle to Pope Soter, fragment in Eusebius' Church History, II:25 (c. A.D. 178).

"Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:1:1 (c. A.D. 180).

"The church of God which sojourns at Rome to the church of God which sojourns at Corinth ... But if any disobey the words spoken by him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger." Clement of Rome, Pope, 1st Epistle to the Corinthians, 1,59:1 (c. A.D. 96).

"And he says to him again after the resurrection, 'Feed my sheep.' It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church's) oneness. No doubt the others were all that Peter was, but a primacy is given to Peter, and it is (thus) made clear that there is but one flock which is to be fed by all the apostles in common accord. If a man does not hold fast to this oneness of Peter, does he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church? This unity firmly should we hold and maintain, especially we bishops, presiding in the Church, in order that we may approve the episcopate itself to be the one and undivided." Cyprian, The Unity of the Church, 4-5 (A.D. 251-256).

Claims made by the church of Rome mean nothing to Christians.

The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." (CCC, par. 841)

2 Timothy 3:16-17

1 Timothy 2:5

[chestertonrules]

• 

Claims made by the church of Rome mean nothing to Christians.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

1 Timothy 2:5

So you believe that your bias against the Church entitles you to ignore scriptures that contradict your doctrine?   Also, it is important to read the writings of the early Church if you want to understand what the apostles taught their successors.

FYI:

1 Tim 4:10
10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

[Zant Law]

• 

So you believe that your bias against the Church entitles you to ignore scriptures that contradict your doctrine?   Also, it is important to read the writings of the early Church if you want to understand what the apostles taught their successors.

FYI:

1 Tim 4:10
10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

When Satan tempted Christ he tried by twisting gods word, Satan did the same thing in the garden of Eden with Eve.

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said , I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

[chestertonrules]

• 

When Satan tempted Christ he tried by twisting gods word, Satan did the same thing in the garden of Eden with Eve.

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said , I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

This verse is irrelevant.  I have exposed your error using scripture.

I have provided evidence that early Christians believed as Catholics believe today.  You are free to ignore this evidence.


Here's more food for thought in case anyone is interested.  St. Ignatius, a disciple of John, was eaten by lions in Rome in about 110 AD because he wouldn't denounce his Christian faith.

He wrote several letters, and among his writings are these two quotes.  He was clearly a Catholic.  Do you believe that John taught him error, or that perhaps there is more to the Catholic Church than you realize?

"See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 105).

"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).