Who Are We?

[Zant Law]

Who Are We?


We are creatures created by God or are we just creatures?
Were we created by God as persons are we above other creatures?

 I believe I would not get any argument that we are creatures. Some may say that we are not created by God others would say we were. I added the word persons, to the question is to stimulate the debate. If we are, is being a person set us above other creatures having responsibilities that other creatures do not? I hear continually, from people who do not believe that life was created by God, that we as persons have responsibilities to such things as the environment and other creatures that inhabit this planet. If that is true and we have these responsibilities and in fact were not created by God or another entity how did we arrive to the point where we received the responsibility to maintain the earth and its living inhabitants and its environment to any level? And if we have this responsibility, who are responsible to, the other creatures? And why would we have that responsibility? Is there a consequence to us as persons if we do not not carry out our responsibility to the *three legged moose lizard* and it dies and goes into extinction? Is there a consequence to our species for allowing extension to extension of another species to happen?

[Andrew]

These are important questions so I'll give it a go.

To whom are we responsible? We are primarily responsible to ourselves.
Our intelligence does set us apart from other creatures. No other organism on our planet is as knowledgable as humans and with that knowledge comes a responsibility of stewardship. We humans could certainly destroy ourselves. I think we're better off if we don't.

In regard to other species, there may be advantages, even to the human species, in not promoting the extinction of other species. Off the top of my head I would suggest that many types of medicine and other useful products would not exist had we eradicated the species from which those products came. Also, living in the technologically advanced world that we live in, we may sometimes forget how important ecosystems may be, but eradicating a species might cause other problems within the ecology, causing other species to suffer, including, perhaps, our own. For example, it is wonderful that we can pull fish from the ocean so that we can eat them. If we were to kill much of the earth's plankton then eating fish would be less of an option, which would likely lead to an increase in human suffering.

[Zant Law]

Hello Andrew

I'll answer biblical which I don't think is in disagreement with your post.

In the first chapter of the first book of the bible, Genesis 1:28-31, God gives man dominion over all living things on earth. God has also given man the wisdom to be a good shepherd to his animals. A man knows not to kill off all his herd if he wants to have a herd next year.

God or nature has removed thousands of species from this earth and mankind has still improved his living circumstances. Have you ever considered that some species are only meant to be on this planet for a short term maybe to transient the ice age for instance?

ZLaw

[Andrew]

Yes, people have indeed improved its living circumstances, especially people in the industrialized nations. And actually there are cases where mankind has improved its condition by wiping out certain species. Smallpox is the most famous. But, wisely, I think, people have kept a small amount of the virus around in the laboratory. Some people have debated whether or not that was wise but once you completely destroy the virus then you can no longer study it. Who knows? Maybe we could learn something beneficial from it. The extinction of a species is a loss to the scientific community that can never be recovered.

[Zant Law]

Yes, people have indeed improved its living circumstances, especially people in the industrialized nations. And actually there are cases where mankind has improved its condition by wiping out certain species. Smallpox is the most famous. But, wisely, I think, people have kept a small amount of the virus around in the laboratory. Some people have debated whether or not that was wise but once you completely destroy the virus then you can no longer study it. Who knows? Maybe we could learn something beneficial from it. The extinction of a species is a loss to the scientific community that can never be recovered.

Do I have a responsibility to the scientific community? If there is no creator that has given us domain over the creatures of the earth then the Darwin rule that the strongest shall survive applies, does it not?

ZLaw

[Andrew]

Do I have a responsibility to the scientific community? If there is no creator that has given us domain over the creatures of the earth then the Darwin rule that the strongest shall survive applies, does it not?

ZLaw

Darwinistic natural selection is brutal. Just because Darwinism got us to where we are does not mean that people must apply Darwinism in designing our society. That's one of the reasons that understanding Darwinism is important.

We really do now, more and more, have domain over the creatures of the earth - but that can be attributed in large part to science.

Because we have a responsibility to ourselves, I think we do have a responsibility to the scientific community. Science has been and continues to be a very successful human venture. We could not feed as many people as we do without science. Modern medicine and machinery would not be possible without science. Science, more than just about anything else, has helped people to improve our living circumstances. If people stopped supporting the sciences then I think we could expect living circumstances to decline.

[Zant Law]

Darwinistic natural selection is brutal. Just because Darwinism got us to where we are does not mean that people must apply Darwinism in designing our society. That's one of the reasons that understanding Darwinism is important.

We really do now, more and more, have domain over the creatures of the earth - but that can be attributed in large part to science.

Because we have a responsibility to ourselves, I think we do have a responsibility to the scientific community. Science has been and continues to be a very successful human venture. We could not feed as many people as we do without science. Modern medicine and machinery would not be possible without science. Science, more than just about anything else, has helped people to improve our living circumstances. If people stopped supporting the sciences then I think we could expect living circumstances to decline.

You talk like more people is a good thing, why?
You also speak of designing society, is that like saying who should pick cotton and who should use the whip or just who's idea of living circumstances we should be made to fall in line with?

My idea of good living circumstances is a society that does not put 44,000 people out of work to save a 2 inch fresh water fish so science can spend the next hundred years counting them.



ZLaw

[Andrew]

You talk like more people is a good thing, why?
You also speak of designing society, is that like saying who should pick cotton and who should use the whip or just who's idea of living circumstances we should be made to fall in line with?

My idea of good living circumstances is a society that does not put 44,000 people out of work to save a 2 inch fresh water fish so science can spend the next hundred years counting them.



ZLaw

No, I don't think overpopulation is a good thing. But at the same time I shudder at the thought of plague and famine.
Humans have designed their society for as long as there have been humans- we're social beings after all.
In regard to you comment about the fish - you are right that we need to find a balance between preservation and having an economy. The questions are challenging. Does the Bible provide those answers?

[Zant Law]

No, I don't think overpopulation is a good thing. But at the same time I shudder at the thought of plague and famine.
Humans have designed their society for as long as there have been humans- we're social beings after all.
In regard to you comment about the fish - you are right that we need to find a balance between preservation and having an economy. The questions are challenging. Does the Bible provide those answers?

Yes.

[Andrew]

Yes.

Okay, go ahead.

[Zant Law]

Proverbs 25:16 ESV

If you have found honey, eat only enough for you, lest you have your fill of it and vomit it.


Romans 13:8-10 ESV

Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Acts 20:35 ESV

In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”

Romans 15:1-2 ESV

We who are strong have an obligation to bear with the failings of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to build him up.

2 Thessalonians 3:10 NAS

For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order : if anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat, either.

Philippians 3:19 ESV

Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things.

Proverbs 23:20-21 ESV

Be not among drunkards or among gluttonous eaters of meat, for the drunkard and the glutton will come to poverty, and slumber will clothe them with rags.


Proverbs 23:21 ESV

For the drunkard and the glutton will come to poverty, and slumber will clothe them with rags.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 ESV

Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.

Deuteronomy 21:20 ESV

And they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’


Romans 13:14 ESV

But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.

1 Corinthians 6:19 ESV

Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,

Proverbs 23:20 ESV

Be not among drunkards or among gluttonous eaters of meat,

Galatians 5:16-26 ESV

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, ...

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 ESV

Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

Romans 12:1 ESV

I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.

Ecclesiastes 10:17 ESV

Happy are you, O land, when your king is the son of the nobility, and your princes feast at the proper time, for strength, and not for drunkenness!


Galatians 6:7-8 ESV

Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Amos 6:4-7 ESV

“Woe to those who lie on beds of ivory and stretch themselves out on their couches, and eat lambs from the flock and calves from the midst of the stall, who sing idle songs to the sound of the harp and like David invent for themselves instruments of music, who drink wine in bowls and anoint themselves with the finest oils, but are not grieved over the ruin of Joseph! Therefore they shall now be the first of those who go into exile, and the revelry of those who stretch themselves out shall pass away.”

Genesis 1:29 ESV

And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food.


Galatians 5:22-23 ESV

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.


Hebrews 13:18 ESV

Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honorably in all things.

Philippians 4:8-9 ESV

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me—practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.


Colossians 3:9 ESV

Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices

Colossians 3:5 ESV

Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.


1 Corinthians 6:9-10 ESV

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.


Luke 6:32-42 ESV

“If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount. But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful. ...

Matthew 22:34-40 ESV

But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. ...

Matthew 6:25-34 ESV

“Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life? And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. ...


Proverbs 24:29 ESV

Do not say, “I will do to him as he has done to me; I will pay the man back for what he has done.”

Proverbs 19:11 ESV

Good sense makes one slow to anger, and it is his glory to overlook an offense.


Leviticus 19:18 ESV

You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.



James 4:1 ESV

What causes quarrels and what causes fights among you? Is it not this, that your passions are at war within you?


James 1:19-20 ESV

Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger; for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God.


Hebrews 13:1 ESV

Let brotherly love continue.

Colossians 3:12-14 ESV

Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony.

Colossians 3:5-10 ESV

Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming. In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices ...



Romans 14:10-12 ESV

Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Acts 5:29 ESV

But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.


Luke 16:13 ESV

No servant can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.”


Mark 9:35 ESV

And he sat down and called the twelve. And he said to them, “If anyone would be first, he must be last of all and servant of all.”


Matthew 6:24 ESV

“No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.


Psalm 15:1-5 ESV

A Psalm of David. O Lord, who shall sojourn in your tent? Who shall dwell on your holy hill? He who walks blamelessly and does what is right and speaks truth in his heart; who does not slander with his tongue and does no evil to his neighbor, nor takes up a reproach against his friend; in whose eyes a vile person is despised, but who honors those who fear the Lord; who swears to his own hurt and does not change; who does not put out his money at interest and does not take a bribe against the innocent. He who does these things shall never be moved.


Luke 10:25-28 ESV

And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?” And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” And he said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.”


Leviticus 25:35-38 ESV

“If your brother becomes poor and cannot maintain himself with you, you shall support him as though he were a stranger and a sojourner, and he shall live with you. Take no interest from him or profit, but fear your God, that your brother may live beside you. You shall not lend him your money at interest, nor give him your food for profit. I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt to give you the land of Canaan, and to be your God.

Leviticus 19:9-10 ESV

“When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap your field right up to its edge, neither shall you gather the gleanings after your harvest. And you shall not strip your vineyard bare, neither shall you gather the fallen grapes of your vineyard. You shall leave them for the poor and for the sojourner: I am the Lord your God.


Philippians 2:2-8 ESV

Complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, ...


Galatians 5:13 ESV

For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.


Romans 12:17-21 ESV

Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.


Luke 21:1-4 ESV

Jesus looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the offering box, and he saw a poor widow put in two small copper coins. And he said, “Truly, I tell you, this poor widow has put in more than all of them. For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.”

Luke 12:33 ESV

Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys.


Luke 3:12-14 ESV

Tax collectors also came to be baptized and said to him, “Teacher, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Collect no more than you are authorized to do.” Soldiers also asked him, “And we, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not extort money from anyone by threats or by false accusation, and be content with your wages.”


Matthew 20:25-28 ESV

But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”


Matthew 16:26 ESV

For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?

Matthew 6:31-34 ESV

Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. “Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

[Zant Law]

As to the good of your science.
Those people put out of work are food producers who make life possible. Consider that your science has declared that DDT is bad for bald eagles so it was ban resulting in the death of millions of humans (most children). With the record that science has for killing people your worship of them escapes any logic that I can see.

May I also remind you that man has used science as much for evil as he has used it for good. It was hard to kill 100000 people at one time with a rock.

I am a believer that science is a gift of God but as we men do from day one, we have misused this gift for evil.


ZLaw

[Andrew]

As to the good of your science.
Those people put out of work are food producers who make life possible. Consider that your science has declared that DDT is bad for bald eagles so it was ban resulting in the death of millions of humans (most children). With the record that science has for killing people your worship of them escapes any logic that I can see.

May I also remind you that man has used science as much for evil as he has used it for good. It was hard to kill 100000 people at one time with a rock.

I am a believer that science is a gift of God but as we men do from day one, we have misused this gift for evil.


ZLaw

I think that we are in agreement that the acquisition of knowledge is generally a good thing - but we also agree that knowledge can be misused. You have written that I worship science. That's not the case. You asked a question about why it might be justified to preserve something in nature at the cost of somebody's job. I think I answered the question but I was careful to write the words "may", "might" and "perhaps" in my answer. You see the question in these matters is often for me, "What will be most beneficial to humans?"

You have provided a lot of Biblical verses that you claim, when it comes to issues of conservation and the economy, will provide the answers, and perhaps I should be impressed. But in order to help this conversation, is it possible for you reduce your list to a more manageable three or four verses that we could discuss so that you can demonstrate how those verses can be used to unambiguously determine how the balance can be struck between conservation and economic concerns when those issues come up. Maybe give an explanation with each verse how that exactitude is found.

[Zant Law]

I think that we are in agreement that the acquisition of knowledge is generally a good thing - but we also agree that knowledge can be misused. You have written that I worship science. That's not the case. You asked a question about why it might be justified to preserve something in nature at the cost of somebody's job. I think I answered the question but I was careful to write the words "may", "might" and "perhaps" in my answer. You see the question in these matters is often for me, "What will be most beneficial to humans?"

You have provided a lot of Biblical verses that you claim, when it comes to issues of conservation and the economy, will provide the answers, and perhaps I should be impressed. But in order to help this conversation, is it possible for you reduce your list to a more manageable three or four verses that we could discuss so that you can demonstrate how those verses can be used to unambiguously determine how the balance can be struck between conservation and economic concerns when those issues come up. Maybe give an explanation with each verse how that exactitude is found.

Maybe we should define the word worship, to me it means something that one puts his faith in concerning survival and the future. Under my definition, which you may or may not accept, you worship the sciences.
The Bible teaches us about gluttony, the need to work, the need to help each other, and the need to love each other. But even more important is something that I would not expect a nonbeliever to understand and that is the old saying that you can't take it with you. Read the verses I posted at your leisure and see if you can find the attitude that the Bible is teaching us that might affect the way we use the resources that God gave us, and the way we interact with each other in our social structure.

I like your question, "What will be most beneficial to humans?" Can you explain why you would care what happens to other humans. Does your mouse care what happens to a mouse two miles away from him? Does a male grizzly care when he kills the cubs of a female grizzly so he can free her up for mating? Why are you any deferent?

[Andrew]

Maybe we should define the word worship, to me it means something that one puts his faith in concerning survival and the future. Under my definition, which you may or may not accept, you worship the sciences.

If you want to use that definition, that's fairly liberal word usage but that's fine. I don't put all my faith in science concerning survival and the future. There has to be humanity involved as well. In fact, without humanity our knowledge of science would have allowed us to destroyed ourselves long ago, i.e. nuclear holocaust. We may yet use our knowledge to destroy ourselves if we adequately neglect our environment.
Science can be used for good but through humanity.

I like your question, "What will be most beneficial to humans?" Can you explain why you would care what happens to other humans.

The reason most of us care about each other is partly because there are personal, selfish benefits to such kindness and partly because of genetics.

Does your mouse care what happens to a mouse two miles away from him?

I don't think any mouse is aware of any mouse two miles away from him. If he was, I'm not sure, but I don't think he would care.

Does a male grizzly care when he kills the cubs of a female grizzly so he can free her up for mating?

Grizzly bears are not social animals like we are. The genes of a male grizzly gain an advantage in such an unsocial animal.

Why are you any deferent?

I'm a different species than a grizzly. I'm not wired that way. Chances are if I killed children for the purpose of mating with women I wouldn't get very far. My genes wouldn't be able to self-replicate and my genes would be extinguished from the population very quickly.
That's an answer that's indifferent to morality. The truth is that killing children is immoral because it goes a long way in causing humans to suffer.

The Bible teaches us about gluttony, the need to work, the need to help each other, and the need to love each other. But even more important is something that I would not expect a nonbeliever to understand and that is the old saying that you can't take it with you. Read the verses I posted at your leisure and see if you can find the attitude that the Bible is teaching us that might affect the way we use the resources that God gave us, and the way we interact with each other in our social structure.

Okay, well that's all good stuff but it still doesn't tell us the answer to the question about how we find the balance between conservation and having an economy. I read each of those verses and tried to find an answer to a question about whether a mine should be developed. The mine would be located in the headwaters of the world's most productive wild salmon fishery. The mine would create short term wealth and jobs for a region with high unemployment but if the mine were to suffer a disaster (like many other mines of its type have) it might wipe out the fishery, destroying a sustainable resource of wealth and jobs. The question is not easy and not one of the verses that you provided gives an answer. Scientists, however, could research the topic and help people to become better informed on the risks and benefits. In fact, that's what they're doing. Let's hope religion doesn't influence what's decided.