A question for Seven Day Adventist.

[Zant Law]

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I was watching a seven day Adventist explaining how that anyone that did not practice the Sabbath on Saturday was guilty of blasphemy and guaranteed a place in hell. I have always wonder how the seven day Adventist justify their beliefs when they are contrary to Romans 14. Maybe one of you out there can explain to me how this is done.

4 Who are you to criticize another's household slave? Before his own Lord he stands or falls. And stand he will! For the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One person considers one day to be above another day. Someone else considers every day to be the same. Each one must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 Whoever observes the day, observes it to the Lord. Whoever eats, eats to the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; and whoever does not eat, it is to the Lord that he does not eat, yet he thanks God.

[Fat]

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I was watching a seven day Adventist explaining how that anyone that did not practice the Sabbath on Saturday was guilty of blasphemy and guaranteed a place in hell. I have always wonder how the seven day Adventist justify their beliefs when they are contrary to Romans 14. Maybe one of you out there can explain to me how this is done.

FYI whoever you were listening to was probably not a SDA. The SDA teach Annihilationism so he/she was either misrepresenting their own beliefs or he/she was not SDA.

That aside I would also like to see them reconcile their Saturday only belief with Rom 14.

[philer]

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The commandment to keep the sabbath is part of the ten,and remains, romans 14 simply indicates that some esteem everday alike
as holy ,and some esteem one day . In the bible ,the message is clear not keeping the sabbath is equaled to unbelief, so if romans 14 were to be taken to say not keeping it is ok ,then we have a contradiction which we know there is none but it does create one for those would indicate that the sabbath day is not more significant than any other day. The lord indicated the sabbath day in a prophecy regarding the end times, clearly showing that it would remain even until the end. Romans 14 does start out by saying it is dealing with the weak in faith, not the strong so it is clear that the weak do not have this knowledge , but of course cannot be shielded from the truth.

[Zant Law]

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I have a different take on Romans 14. I believe Romans 14 is saying the weaker brother is the one who only observes one day a week.

But I would like to address your post because I believe you will fall into a falsehood not supported by the Bible. You're relying on a man-made calendar to interpret the truth given to us in Scripture. The Scripture tells us we were to work six days and the rest the seventh day, keeping it holy unto the Lord. That seventh day is a Sabbath and is determined by the workweek not by the name of the days. Many countries start their calendars with Monday as the first day of the week, and Sunday as the last week. Most of the Western world starts its work week on Monday, and as I said many of the European countries also start calendar as Monday the first day of the week.

Let's review the text:
Deuteronomy 5:13 'Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God ; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant or your ox or your donkey or any of your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you, so that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you.

Now as hard as I look within this commandment I do not see any day referred to by name. The Bible is very pacific, we are to work six days and the seventh day becomes a Sabbath. The Bible is not specific about what you should start your workweek nor what to call the days of the week. This is all a man-made trap which many have fallen into.

If you fall into this trap you must start your workweek on Sunday, and not use Sunday as a day to go to the beach, have a barbecue, or go visiting friends. You must start your workweek on Sunday, or according to your interpretation you are committing a violation of the commandment given to us in Deuteronomy 5:13.

Let me illustrate this by using a make-believe scenario.

Let's say that somebody filed a suit with the Supreme Court of United States claiming that the names on the calendar of the days of the week were a form of religious discrimination. Because some of the days had Jewish implications and some the days had pagan implications. So let's assume that the court found on the side of the plaintiff and ordered all names be stricken of the days of the week on the calendar used in the United States. To be fair when redesigning the calendars the names of the week were just by number. In other words you had the first day of the week, the second day of the week, the third day of week, and so on to the seventh day of the week. And furthermore to make it fair and easy for the calendar printers the first day of the week would start on January 1. And to go but further the calendar would start every year with January 1 as the first day of the week.

Now obviously if you follow the calendar like this you would actually lose some sabbath days and eventually you would have 2 sabbath days back to back, December 31 and January 1.

Following the man-made calendar is a trap and it is much better than we follow God's calendar that he made a very clear to us in Deuteronomy when he gave us the commandment, 'Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God'. This is a very simple commandment to follow, however some, like the Pharisees of old, want to manipulate it so they may use it for their own purposes, bringing glory and power to themselves.

[Fat]

• 

I have a different take on Romans 14. I believe Romans 14 is saying the weaker brother is the one who only observes one day a week.

But I would like to address your post because I believe you will fall into a falsehood not supported by the Bible. You're relying on a man-made calendar to interpret the truth given to us in Scripture. The Scripture tells us we were to work six days and the rest the seventh day, keeping it holy unto the Lord. That seventh day is a Sabbath and is determined by the workweek not by the name of the days. Many countries start their calendars with Monday as the first day of the week, and Sunday as the last week. Most of the Western world starts its work week on Monday, and as I said many of the European countries also start calendar as Monday the first day of the week.

Let's review the text:
Deuteronomy 5:13 'Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God ; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant or your ox or your donkey or any of your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you, so that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you.

Now as hard as I look within this commandment I do not see any day referred to by name. The Bible is very pacific, we are to work six days and the seventh day becomes a Sabbath. The Bible is not specific about what you should start your workweek nor what to call the days of the week. This is all a man-made trap which many have fallen into.

If you fall into this trap you must start your workweek on Sunday, and not use Sunday as a day to go to the beach, have a barbecue, or go visiting friends. You must start your workweek on Sunday, or according to your interpretation you are committing a violation of the commandment given to us in Deuteronomy 5:13.

Let me illustrate this by using a make-believe scenario.

Let's say that somebody filed a suit with the Supreme Court of United States claiming that the names on the calendar of the days of the week were a form of religious discrimination. Because some of the days had Jewish implications and some the days had pagan implications. So let's assume that the court found on the side of the plaintiff and ordered all names be stricken of the days of the week on the calendar used in the United States. To be fair when redesigning the calendars the names of the week were just by number. In other words you had the first day of the week, the second day of the week, the third day of week, and so on to the seventh day of the week. And furthermore to make it fair and easy for the calendar printers the first day of the week would start on January 1. And to go but further the calendar would start every year with January 1 as the first day of the week.

Now obviously if you follow the calendar like this you would actually lose some sabbath days and eventually you would have 2 sabbath days back to back, December 31 and January 1.

Following the man-made calendar is a trap and it is much better than we follow God's calendar that he made a very clear to us in Deuteronomy when he gave us the commandment, 'Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God'. This is a very simple commandment to follow, however some, like the Pharisees of old, want to manipulate it so they may use it for their own purposes, bringing glory and power to themselves.

I that is a real nice to post Law, unfortunately it will not work with the SDA. You have to understand you're talking to the same people that say the Bible does not teach of the eternal damnation in hell. A major portion of them do not believe in the Trinity as we define it.

[philer]

• 

I have a different take on Romans 14. I believe Romans 14 is saying the weaker brother is the one who only observes one day a week.

But I would like to address your post because I believe you will fall into a falsehood not supported by the Bible. You're relying on a man-made calendar to interpret the truth given to us in Scripture. The Scripture tells us we were to work six days and the rest the seventh day, keeping it holy unto the Lord. That seventh day is a Sabbath and is determined by the workweek not by the name of the days. Many countries start their calendars with Monday as the first day of the week, and Sunday as the last week. Most of the Western world starts its work week on Monday, and as I said many of the European countries also start calendar as Monday the first day of the week.

Let's review the text:
Deuteronomy 5:13 'Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God ; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant or your ox or your donkey or any of your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you, so that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you.

Now as hard as I look within this commandment I do not see any day referred to by name. The Bible is very pacific, we are to work six days and the seventh day becomes a Sabbath. The Bible is not specific about what you should start your workweek nor what to call the days of the week. This is all a man-made trap which many have fallen into.

If you fall into this trap you must start your workweek on Sunday, and not use Sunday as a day to go to the beach, have a barbecue, or go visiting friends. You must start your workweek on Sunday, or according to your interpretation you are committing a violation of the commandment given to us in Deuteronomy 5:13.

Let me illustrate this by using a make-believe scenario.

Let's say that somebody filed a suit with the Supreme Court of United States claiming that the names on the calendar of the days of the week were a form of religious discrimination. Because some of the days had Jewish implications and some the days had pagan implications. So let's assume that the court found on the side of the plaintiff and ordered all names be stricken of the days of the week on the calendar used in the United States. To be fair when redesigning the calendars the names of the week were just by number. In other words you had the first day of the week, the second day of the week, the third day of week, and so on to the seventh day of the week. And furthermore to make it fair and easy for the calendar printers the first day of the week would start on January 1. And to go but further the calendar would start every year with January 1 as the first day of the week.

Now obviously if you follow the calendar like this you would actually lose some sabbath days and eventually you would have 2 sabbath days back to back, December 31 and January 1.

Following the man-made calendar is a trap and it is much better than we follow God's calendar that he made a very clear to us in Deuteronomy when he gave us the commandment, 'Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God'. This is a very simple commandment to follow, however some, like the Pharisees of old, want to manipulate it so they may use it for their own purposes, bringing glory and power to themselves.

unfortunately the only thing your failing to indicate is,GOD blessed and santified the seventh day and commanded isreal to keep the seventh day of rest, and clearly showed them which day that was by giving them mana on that day,and ever since that time isreal knew exactly which day that was and has kept it ever since. we also know which day was the seventh day because those who believe that christ rose on sunday morning and believe that sunday is now their day of worship or rest because of thier belief in the first day of the week resurrection, clearly indicating a move away from the sunset friday to sunset saturday sabbath. so we do know what day it is, we will never escape knowing, and the jews to this day acknowledge it as sunset friday to saturday. no way we can deny which day is the sabbath .
[/quote]

[Zant Law]

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unfortunately the only thing your failing to indicate is,GOD blessed and santified the seventh day and commanded isreal to keep the seventh day of rest, and clearly showed them which day that was by giving them mana on that day,and ever since that time isreal knew exactly which day that was and has kept it ever since. we also know which day was the seventh day because those who believe that christ rose on sunday morning and believe that sunday is now their day of worship or rest because of thier belief in the first day of the week resurrection, clearly indicating a move away from the sunset friday to sunset saturday sabbath. so we do know what day it is, we will never escape knowing, and the jews to this day acknowledge it as sunset friday to saturday. no way we can deny which day is the sabbath .

You have it right it is the seventh day. I like to know which version of the Bible you have that has the words Friday and Saturday in it?

Just a reminder the Bible says: 'Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God'. God relates the sabbath to six days of work nothing else it says nothing about manna. In the desert Moses worked them six days and on the seventh they rested.

Let's make sure we understand it does not say which day you start your work on it only says six days you shall work and the seventh day is the Sabbath.

Now I understand some people have a Bible that has extra words, some people have Bibles that even have extra books in them, but my Bible says: 'Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God ; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant or your ox or your donkey or any of your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you, so that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you'.

We just recently had a long thread with a Catholic who basis his religion on traditions not the scripture, that is exactly what you are trying to do when you claim that Jewish tradition trumps the holy Scriptures. After all what does the Jewish tradition tell them about the coming Messiah who they are still waiting for?

[philer]

• 

You have it right it is the seventh day. I like to know which version of the Bible you have that has the words Friday and Saturday in it?

Just a reminder the Bible says: 'Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God'. God relates the sabbath to six days of work nothing else it says nothing about manna. In the desert Moses worked them six days and on the seventh they rested.

Let's make sure we understand it does not say which day you start your work on it only says six days you shall work and the seventh day is the Sabbath.

Now I understand some people have a Bible that has extra words, some people have Bibles that even have extra books in them, but my Bible says: 'Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God ; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant or your ox or your donkey or any of your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you, so that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you'.

We just recently had a long thread with a Catholic who basis his religion on traditions not the scripture, that is exactly what you are trying to do when you claim that Jewish tradition trumps the holy Scriptures. After all what does the Jewish tradition tell them about the coming Messiah who they are still waiting for?

It seems you totally avoided what i had pointed out. God blessed and sanctified the seventh day, and clearly indicated which day that was, and isreal continues to this day to acknowledge that day, as well as churches today as they believe chirst rose at sunrise the first day of the week, which clearly indicates which day is the sabbath and which day is the first day of the week,the only way to avoid knowing that the sabbath is sunset friday to sunset saturday is to believe that the jews have not kept it since
the time of moses. The modern churches also believe in the rise of christ on the first day of the week ,which they know to this day to be sunday the day after the sabbath, although calendars change , the hebrew calendar has not ,and they continue to this day from the time of moses and have kept it,this debunks the myth that we dont know which day it is ,although the word saturday is not used in correlation with sabbath ,we do know which day the sabbath is,becuase the jews have kept it from sunset friday to sunset saturday , what can anyone say to this? is the hebrew calendar wrong? they dont keep the julian calendar or gregorian. so as i said we cannot escape the clear evidence no matter what reasoning we would like to apply to avoid knowing which day the lord blessed and sanctified.

[Zant Law]

• 

It seems you totally avoided what i had pointed out. God blessed and sanctified the seventh day, and clearly indicated which day that was, and isreal continues to this day to acknowledge that day, as well as churches today as they believe chirst rose at sunrise the first day of the week, which clearly indicates which day is the sabbath and which day is the first day of the week,the only way to avoid knowing that the sabbath is sunset friday to sunset saturday is to believe that the jews have not kept it since
the time of moses. The modern churches also believe in the rise of christ on the first day of the week ,which they know to this day to be sunday the day after the sabbath, although calendars change , the hebrew calendar has not ,and they continue to this day from the time of moses and have kept it,this debunks the myth that we dont know which day it is ,although the word saturday is not used in correlation with sabbath ,we do know which day the sabbath is,becuase the jews have kept it from sunset friday to sunset saturday , what can anyone say to this? is the hebrew calendar wrong? they dont keep the julian calendar or gregorian. so as i said we cannot escape the clear evidence no matter what reasoning we would like to apply to avoid knowing which day the lord blessed and sanctified.

First of all let's remember that the modern churches believe all kinds of things and many of those beliefs conflict with each other.

And again you're making assumptions which are not in the scripture. The text says: Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God. Which came first the manna or the Sabbath? The Sabbath came first after six days of work and manna came later. The giving of the manna revolved around the Sabbath, the Sabbath did not revolve around the giving of manna.

The Jews clearly had the Bible all mixed up in their minds. Christ spent much of his sermons trying to correct their misconception of the scripture.

[Fat]

• 

First of all let's remember that the modern churches believe all kinds of things and many of those beliefs conflict with each other.

And again you're making assumptions which are not in the scripture. The text says: Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God. Which came first the manna or the Sabbath? The Sabbath came first after six days of work and manna came later. The giving of the manna revolved around the Sabbath, the Sabbath did not revolve around the giving of manna.

The Jews clearly had the Bible all mixed up in their minds. Christ spent much of his sermons trying to correct their misconception of the scripture.

All I can say is I told you so!

[Zant Law]

• 

All I can say is I told you so!

I know but it's so frustrating the God mentions nothing about a calendar as he did in leviticus 23. They say you must obey the 10 Commandments and they are very clear. It seems to me so much like the Pharisees where they distorted the Sabbath for their own purposes. Six days of labor in the seventh day of rest, so complicated.

[philer]

• 

First of all let's remember that the modern churches believe all kinds of things and many of those beliefs conflict with each other.

And again you're making assumptions which are not in the scripture. The text says: Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God. Which came first the manna or the Sabbath? The Sabbath came first after six days of work and manna came later. The giving of the manna revolved around the Sabbath, the Sabbath did not revolve around the giving of manna.

The Jews clearly had the Bible all mixed up in their minds. Christ spent much of his sermons trying to correct their misconception of the scripture.

exactly the extra mana was given the day before the sabbath,because the next day the sabbath day there would be no mana,why? because that day was the day of rest and no mana was going to be there. The day did not change from week to week nor was it individually based on which day each person chose, it was a certain day, the seventh day,and that day has been known and kept since that time. GOD did not give a command to enter into his rest and not give a way to know which day it is . zant there is no way of saying that the seventh day has not been kept by isreal to this day from friday sunset to saturday sunset  . If i understand correctly what your trying to imply is the day of GODs seventh day rest is which ever day you decide to rest ,and that would make it YOUR rest no HIS rest ,and in hebrews it is pointed out clearly hebrews 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) "  it wasnt their rest they were entering into or their decision to pick a day of rest ,it was GOD's rest and they because of unbelief could not enter into it. is it a certain day ,or just any day a man chooses?hebrews4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts." hebrews 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day." which of course he did not ,nor has GOD . The way i understand what your trying to say is ,GOD blesses and sanctifies any day that we choose to rest on,not his rest ,and so no one really ever knew which day the sabbath was and the jews kept any day of the week.  The fact is isreal was told which day to keep as the seventh day,mana was given in double portion the day before the sabbath so they knew exactly which day it was,and has been ever since there is no way to deny that,except ignore the reality of it.

[philer]

• 

I know but it's so frustrating the God mentions nothing about a calendar as he did in leviticus 23. They say you must obey the 10 Commandments and they are very clear. It seems to me so much like the Pharisees where they distorted the Sabbath for their own purposes. Six days of labor in the seventh day of rest, so complicated.

GOD mentions a calendar in leviticus 23, and so with a calendar in place which isreal was aware of and have kept since that time,indicates they knew exactly which days where holy days including the weekly sabbath since that time. that was a bit of contradiction saying GOD mentions nothing about a calendar but mentions months and days which is indication of knowledge of a calendar.

[Zant Law]

• 

exactly the extra mana was given the day before the sabbath,because the next day the sabbath day there would be no mana,why? because that day was the day of rest and no mana was going to be there. The day did not change from week to week nor was it individually based on which day each person chose, it was a certain day, the seventh day,and that day has been known and kept since that time. GOD did not give a command to enter into his rest and not give a way to know which day it is . zant there is no way of saying that the seventh day has not been kept by isreal to this day from friday sunset to saturday sunset  . If i understand correctly what your trying to imply is the day of GODs seventh day rest is which ever day you decide to rest ,and that would make it YOUR rest no HIS rest ,and in hebrews it is pointed out clearly hebrews 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) "  it wasnt their rest they were entering into or their decision to pick a day of rest ,it was GOD's rest and they because of unbelief could not enter into it. is it a certain day ,or just any day a man chooses?hebrews4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts." hebrews 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day." which of course he did not ,nor has GOD . The way i understand what your trying to say is ,GOD blesses and sanctifies any day that we choose to rest on,not his rest ,and so no one really ever knew which day the sabbath was and the jews kept any day of the week.  The fact is isreal was told which day to keep as the seventh day,mana was given in double portion the day before the sabbath so they knew exactly which day it was,and has been ever since there is no way to deny that,except ignore the reality of it.

Again the calendar had nothing to do in determining the day of the Sabbath. Nowhere in the scripture does it say it has. What does the 10 Commandments say in your Bible?

[Zant Law]

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GOD mentions a calendar in leviticus 23, and so with a calendar in place which isreal was aware of and have kept since that time,indicates they knew exactly which days where holy days including the weekly sabbath since that time. that was a bit of contradiction saying GOD mentions nothing about a calendar but mentions months and days which is indication of knowledge of a calendar.

There's no calendar that says anything about when the seventh day is and when the six days a worker are. Would they be using a calendar written by the Egyptians?

Please read Deuteronomy 5:13-14.