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The Times of the Gentiles

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Intojoy:
You asked if I thought if the times of the Gentiles extends past the first half of the Tribulation, that confused me a little. I'm pre - trib but think the Gentile power continues up to the end of the trib. Is this your belief too?

Fat:


The way I understand what Christ was saying in Luke 21 and Revelation 11 the time of the Gentiles will begin right after the rapture of the Church. I do not see how they can coincide with each other according to what is being said here. The time of the Gentiles continues for 42 months (3 1/2 years). After which Satan and the antichrist basically take over Jerusalem. Then 3 1/2 years later the Saints will return with Christ or should I say Christ will return with the Saints, and Christ will take his rightful seat on the throne of David for 1000 years.

To be clear I'm saying the Church will not be here at the second coming, but they will be participating in the second coming.

Fat
Idaho

Intojoy:
Well we agree on where the church is, with Christ in heaven during the trib, and returning with Him at the end. The book of Daniel needs to be part of this study, the fourth beast was Rome which corresponded with Nebuchadnezzar's colossal man. That fourth Gentile empire is now in its two division stage, represented by the two legs of Neb's man. Rome eventually split having two capitals, Constantinople and Rome. That division is represented by the gentile powers in the east and the gentile powers of the west of our world today. The eastern power headed by Russia will eventually invade Israel (Ezekiel 38), and be completely and utterly destroyed by God. When this happens the fourth beast of Daniel will enter into a one world system which breaks into a ten division phase (ten toes) of which the antichrist will arise this bringing the fourth beast into the antichrist stage. Then after the rapture, antichrist makes a covenant with Israel which kicks off the tribulation. In my view, it is not the rapture that initiates the Tribulation but the covenant made by Israel with the antichrist. Furthermore, the birth pangs spoken of by Yeshua are WW1, 1948 the rebirth of the nation of Israel, the retaking of Jerusalem, and the next birth pang the earth will experience will either be the rapture or we may witness the Magog invasion of Ezekiel 38. Exciting times.

Intojoy:

--- Quote from: Intojoy on January 05, 2013, 01:11:59 pm ---The Sign of the End of the Age Having provided for His disciples certain characteristics that would in no way indicate that the end had begun, Jesus next proceeded to answer the third question, which concerned the sign that the end of the age had truly begun. It is recorded in Matthew 24:7-8; Mark 13:8; and Luke 21:10-11.

The Matthew account reads: For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be famines and earthquakes in divers places. But all these things are the beginning of travail. According to all three Gospel writers, the sign of the end of the age is said to be when nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. This act will be coupled with famines and earthquakes in various places, and then Yeshua clearly stated that this would be the beginning of travail. The term travail means “birth pang.” It refers to the series of birth pangs that a woman undergoes before giving birth to a baby. The prophets pictured the last days as a series of birth pangs before the birth of the new Messianic Age. The beginning of travail, the first birth pang, and the sign that the end of the age has begun is when “nation rises against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.”

Jesus had already clearly stated that local wars between a few nations would not indicate that the end had begun. But then He said that when there is “nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom,” this will mean the end of the age has begun.

To understand what the idiom “nation against nation, and kingdom against kingdom” means, it is necessary to return to the Jewish origin of these statements.  This expression is a Hebrew idiom for a world war. Yeshua's statement here is that when a world war occurs, rather than merely a local war, that world war would signal that the end of the age had begun.

This is quite in keeping with the Jewish writings of this same period. One Jewish source known as the Zohar Chadash states: “ At that time wars shall be stirred up in the world. Nation shall be against nation and city against city; much distress shall be renewed against the enemies of the Israelites.”

Another Jewish source known as the Bereshit Rabbah states: “If you shall see the kingdoms rising against each other in turn, then give heed and note the footsteps of the Messiah (XLII:4).” The rabbis clearly taught that a world-wide conflict would signal the coming of the Messiah. Yeshua corrected this idea slightly , for He said that when the world war occurs, while it does not signal the coming of the Messiah, it will signal that the end of the age has begun. These birth pangs that Yeshua talked about are the same as the “footsteps” that the rabbis talked about. The “footsteps of the Messiah” had to do with the series of events that will lead up to the coming of the Messiah. The title of the 500-page prophecy book, The Footsteps of the Messiah, is based on this Jewish concept, reflected in the Matthew account concerning nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom.

World War I, 1914-1918, was the fulfillment of this particular prophecy, for that was the First World War. As virtually all historians agree, World War II was merely a continuation of World War I. Furthermore, both world wars had a decisive impact on Jewish history. World War I gave impetus to the growth of the Zionist movement, and World War II led to the re-establishment of the Jewish State. Since World War I, history has entered the last days of the Church Age. However, the last days are an extended period of time.

The sign that the end of the age has begun is the world-wide conflict fulfilled by World War I and World War II.

--- End quote ---

Having provided an answer to the third question regarding the sign of the end of the age, the Messiah then turned back to His own time to spell out some of the personal experiences that the apostles would have to undergo. This is recorded in Mark 13:9-13 and Luke 21:12-19.

The Luke account reads: But before all these things, they shall lay their hands on you, and shall persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for my name's sake. It shall turn out unto you for a testimony. Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate beforehand how to answer:  for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to withstand or to gainsay. But ye shall be delivered up even by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolk, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. And not a hair of your head shall perish. In your patience ye shall win your souls. The Luke account clearly states that what is about to be described is going to occur before the sign that the end of the age has begun, as the passage begins with the phrase, But before all these things. Jesus then described some personal experiences that the apostles were to go through after He departed from them. Altogether, He listed nine things. First, in verse 12a, they will be rejected by the Jews. Secondly, in verse 12b, they will be rejected by the Gentiles. Thirdly, in verse 13, they will undergo persecutions, but these persecutions will provide opportunities for testimony. Fourthly, they will succeed in proclaiming the gospel everywhere (Mk. 13:10); this is verified by Romans 10:18 and Colossians 1:6, 23. Fifth, in verses 14-15, they need not worry about preparing defenses before their trials, because they will be given divine utterance when they are brought before judgment. Sixth, in verse 16, they will be rejected by their own family members. Seventh, in verse 17, they will be hated by all men to the point that some will be martyred. Eighth, in verse 18, nevertheless, their salvation is assured. And ninth, in verse 19, they will succeed in winning many souls.

Intojoy:
That the apostles did, indeed, experience all these things is well-known both from the Book of Acts and from other historical records that trace the activities of the apostles beyond that which is recorded in the Book of Acts. While the Messiah had already answered their third question concerning the sign of the end of the age, before proceeding to answer their other two questions, He chose to predict some of the personal experiences that they would have to undergo before the sign of the end of the age would come. They were not to expect the end of the age to come too soon. In fact, Jesus predicted that many of them would die before the end of the age ever began.

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