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The Times of the Gentiles

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Intojoy:
The Sign of the End of the Age Having provided for His disciples certain characteristics that would in no way indicate that the end had begun, Jesus next proceeded to answer the third question, which concerned the sign that the end of the age had truly begun. It is recorded in Matthew 24:7-8; Mark 13:8; and Luke 21:10-11.

The Matthew account reads: For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be famines and earthquakes in divers places. But all these things are the beginning of travail. According to all three Gospel writers, the sign of the end of the age is said to be when nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. This act will be coupled with famines and earthquakes in various places, and then Yeshua clearly stated that this would be the beginning of travail. The term travail means “birth pang.” It refers to the series of birth pangs that a woman undergoes before giving birth to a baby. The prophets pictured the last days as a series of birth pangs before the birth of the new Messianic Age. The beginning of travail, the first birth pang, and the sign that the end of the age has begun is when “nation rises against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.”

Jesus had already clearly stated that local wars between a few nations would not indicate that the end had begun. But then He said that when there is “nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom,” this will mean the end of the age has begun.

To understand what the idiom “nation against nation, and kingdom against kingdom” means, it is necessary to return to the Jewish origin of these statements.  This expression is a Hebrew idiom for a world war. Yeshua's statement here is that when a world war occurs, rather than merely a local war, that world war would signal that the end of the age had begun.

This is quite in keeping with the Jewish writings of this same period. One Jewish source known as the Zohar Chadash states: “ At that time wars shall be stirred up in the world. Nation shall be against nation and city against city; much distress shall be renewed against the enemies of the Israelites.”

Another Jewish source known as the Bereshit Rabbah states: “If you shall see the kingdoms rising against each other in turn, then give heed and note the footsteps of the Messiah (XLII:4).” The rabbis clearly taught that a world-wide conflict would signal the coming of the Messiah. Yeshua corrected this idea slightly , for He said that when the world war occurs, while it does not signal the coming of the Messiah, it will signal that the end of the age has begun. These birth pangs that Yeshua talked about are the same as the “footsteps” that the rabbis talked about. The “footsteps of the Messiah” had to do with the series of events that will lead up to the coming of the Messiah. The title of the 500-page prophecy book, The Footsteps of the Messiah, is based on this Jewish concept, reflected in the Matthew account concerning nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom.

World War I, 1914-1918, was the fulfillment of this particular prophecy, for that was the First World War. As virtually all historians agree, World War II was merely a continuation of World War I. Furthermore, both world wars had a decisive impact on Jewish history. World War I gave impetus to the growth of the Zionist movement, and World War II led to the re-establishment of the Jewish State. Since World War I, history has entered the last days of the Church Age. However, the last days are an extended period of time.

The sign that the end of the age has begun is the world-wide conflict fulfilled by World War I and World War II.

Fat:
You seem to be morphing here from the church age to the time of the Gentiles.

You really never say they are the same but you seem to be indicating they are. In plain speak is that what you're saying?

I would like to ask you if you believe that the time of the Gentiles extends beyond the three and half years limited by Revelations 11?

Intojoy:
Sorry, I believe we as members of the church age are in the times of the Gentiles, and that it comes to an end with Messiah's return at the end of the Tribulation. I believe that the Kingdom of Heaven program has gone into its mystery form as pictured by the parables. According to Daniel, the antichrist kicks off the Tribulation with the signing of a peace treaty with Israel, at the mid point, he turns against the Jews in an attempt to thwart the Messiah from keeping His promise of delivering to Israel the Messianic Kingdom. What is your understanding of these things?

 Thanks,
Michael

Fat:
Okay then you're post tribulation, I'm a pre-trip guy myself. I don't believe that the rapture is the same as the second coming, the second coming is when Christ actually takes over the throne of David.
The Scriptures teaches us (Zech. 14:5, Rev. 19:8, Rev. 19:14, colossians 3:4) that the saints will return with Christ on his second coming. This of course cannot be unless the rapture had already occurred.

Intojoy:
Understood. Sorry bout the confusion. I'm not a scholar, just a student of Scripture. The information I put forth is from my studies under Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum.
Ill go out on a limb and say we are closer today then we were yesterday.
I believe in a pre trib rapture too.
From Hawaii,
Mike

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