Bible Talk > Sound doctrine
predestination
Fat:
That is 2 Peter 3:9 and when read in context you see it refers to the elect not all man kind.
Some other pertinent verses about the doctrine of predestination.
First Romans 9:11
Romans 9:6-16
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Neither are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants. On the contrary, in Isaac your seed will be called. 8 That is, it is not the children by physical descent who are God's children, but the children of the promise are considered seed. 9 For this is the statement of the promise: At this time I will come, and Sarah will have a son. 10 And not only that, but also when Rebekah became pregnant by Isaac our forefather 11 (for though they had not been born yet or done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to election (ejklevgw) might stand, 12 not from works but from the One who calls) she was told: The older will serve the younger. 13 As it is written: Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.
The word used for election is the same word used to describe Paul's conversion. Acts 9:15 translated as chosen.
Acts 9:10-20 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said , Behold , I am here, Lord. 11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise , and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold , he prayeth , 12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in , and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight . 13 Then Ananias answered , Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: 14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. 15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way : for he is a chosen (ejklevgw) vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake . 17 And Ananias went his way , and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said , Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest , hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight , and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose , and was baptized . 19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened . Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. 20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
--- Quote from: Jack ---God truly does will for all to repent!
--- End quote ---
Not really.
Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen (ejklevgw) us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Jack Koons:
--- Quote from: Fat on June 19, 2013, 01:45:02 pm ---That is 2 Peter 3:9 and when read in context you see it refers to the elect not all man kind.
Some other pertinent verses about the doctrine of predestination.
First Romans 9:11
Romans 9:6-16
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Neither are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants. On the contrary, in Isaac your seed will be called. 8 That is, it is not the children by physical descent who are God's children, but the children of the promise are considered seed. 9 For this is the statement of the promise: At this time I will come, and Sarah will have a son. 10 And not only that, but also when Rebekah became pregnant by Isaac our forefather 11 (for though they had not been born yet or done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to election (ejklevgw) might stand, 12 not from works but from the One who calls) she was told: The older will serve the younger. 13 As it is written: Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.
The word used for election is the same word used to describe Paul's conversion. Acts 9:15 translated as chosen.
Acts 9:10-20 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said , Behold , I am here, Lord. 11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise , and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold , he prayeth , 12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in , and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight . 13 Then Ananias answered , Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: 14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. 15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way : for he is a chosen (ejklevgw) vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake . 17 And Ananias went his way , and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said , Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest , hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight , and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose , and was baptized . 19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened . Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. 20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
Not really.
Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen (ejklevgw) us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
--- End quote ---
Hello Fat,
He we address "U = Unconditional Election"
This really is one of the most interesting parts of 'predestination'. While the cause of people being condemned (according to Calvinists) is "Total Depravity", (which is incorrect ... Depravity is NOT why people are condemned ... According to John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God., people are condemned for NOT BELIEVING); the reason people have eternal life (according to Calvinists), is because of "Unconditional Election".
The teaching is that unconditional election is the act of the Sovereign God determining by His will, who will receive eternal life.
Of course the opposite side of that same coin is that by not choosing souls to give eternal life, He by default is choosing to condemn the rest.
Consider this: Since man has no part is his salvation (it is absolutely the grace of God, with NO input from man; the same has to be true for those who are condemned. The fallacy of this teaching is that since the fall, NOT ONE PERSON has had a CHOICE in their eternal destiny: all the condemned are condemned, not being given a choice to believe, or not believe; and, all of the saved are saved, not given a choice to believe or not believe.
In an effort to glorify God the Calvinists teach that God is sovereign in all things, and, they are correct. The problem is their 'definition' of sovereign. I absolutely believe God is sovereign.
The following is from the Merriam-Webster 2013 Dictionary:
sov·er·eign
noun
1a : one possessing or held to possess supreme political power orsovereignty
b : one that exercises supremeauthority within a limited sphere
c : an acknowledged leader : arbiter
2 : any of various gold coins of theUnited Kingdom
Variants: also sov·ran \ˈsä-v(ə-)rən, -vərn also ˈsə-\
Origin: Middle English soverain, fromAnglo-French soverein, fromsoverein, adjective (see 2sovereign ).
First use: 13th century
Synonyms: autocrat, potentate,ruler, monarch (also sovran)
Allow me to share my thoughts.
By God choosing who gets saved (and who doesn't by default), he receives no glory at all. What has He done to receive glory? Think about it. Let's say God created 1,000,000,000 souls. Since we know far more people go to Hell than Heaven (whether we like it or not it is a Biblical fact), we'll say 1,000,000 souls go to Heaven, leaving 999,000,000 people condemned. Where is the glory in that? God who knows all things; past, present, and future, knew (when creating 1,000,000,000 souls) that 999,000,000 souls would be damned forever. He knew that He was about to create 999,000,000 souls that would ultimately be condemned. Souls that He had absolutely no intention of ever saving. This ultimately means God created them to be damned, and they had NO CHOICE in the matter.
This is not the sovereign God I serve.
Jack
Fat:
Let me say one thing before I get started. I see in your profile you are a Baptist. For the most part Baptist are Calvinist, with some exceptions. It also appears to me you are not aware of the deference in Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism. John MacArthur and John Piper are Calvinist not Hyper-Calvinism they do not teach Hyper-Calvinism as you are trying to brand them and mainstream Calvinist with.
--- Quote --->>He we address "U = Unconditional Election"
This really is one of the most interesting parts of 'predestination'. While the cause of people being condemned (according to Calvinists) is "Total Depravity", (which is incorrect ... Depravity is NOT why people are condemned ... According to John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God., people are condemned for NOT BELIEVING); the reason people have eternal life (according to Calvinists), is because of "Unconditional Election".<<<
--- End quote ---
The real question here and is you Arminians fail to address is how does a sinner come to believe? In have posted the answer in Christ words in my Reply #7. You side stepped that question by switching the subject to your definition of TULIP. But you are now bring yourself back to that point, HOW DOES ONE COME TO BELIEVE UNTO HIM? Answer is in John 6 above.
--- Quote --->>The teaching is that unconditional election is the act of the Sovereign God determining by His will, who will receive eternal life.
Of course the opposite side of that same coin is that by not choosing souls to give eternal life, He by default is choosing to condemn the rest.<<<
--- End quote ---
I could make the same argument from your first paragraph. If God only chooses to save those that believe He is choosing to condemn the rest.
--- Quote --->>>Consider this: Since man has no part is his salvation (it is absolutely the grace of God, with NO input from man; the same has to be true for those who are condemned. The fallacy of this teaching is that since the fall, NOT ONE PERSON has had a CHOICE in their eternal destiny: all the condemned are condemned, not being given a choice to believe, or not believe; and, all of the saved are saved, not given a choice to believe or not believe.<<<
--- End quote ---
Again I point you to John 6.
--- Quote --->>>>The following is from the Merriam-Webster 2013 Dictionary:
sov·er·eign<<<
--- End quote ---
I prefer Strong's when it comes to the bible.
Strong's Number: 4437
Original Word
Word Origin
wklm
corresponding to (04438)
Transliterated Word
TDNT Entry
Malkuw (Aramaic)
TWOT - 2829c
Phonetic Spelling
Parts of Speech
mal-koo'
Noun Feminine
Definition
1. royalty, reign, kingdom
1. royalty, kingship, kingly authority
2. kingdom
3. realm (of territory)
4. reign (of time)
NAS Word Usage - Total: 57
government affairs 1, kingdom 38, kingdoms 3, realm 4, reign 4, royal 3, sovereignty 4
--- Quote --->>By God choosing who gets saved (and who doesn't by default), he receives no glory at all. What has He done to receive glory? Think about it. Let's say God created 1,000,000,000 souls. Since we know far more people go to Hell than Heaven (whether we like it or not it is a Biblical fact), we'll say 1,000,000 souls go to Heaven, leaving 999,000,000 people condemned. Where is the glory in that? God who knows all things; past, present, and future, knew (when creating 1,000,000,000 souls) that 999,000,000 souls would be damned forever. He knew that He was about to create 999,000,000 souls that would ultimately be condemned. Souls that He had absolutely no intention of ever saving. This ultimately means God created them to be damned, and they had NO CHOICE in the matter.<<
--- End quote ---
What sinner seeks God without His help?
Man has condemned himself. God is a Just God and judges sin and those who commit it but He does not see the sins of those who are covered by the Cross.
--- Quote --->>This is not the sovereign God I serve.<<
--- End quote ---
That sounds like something you would hear from Oprah Winfrey.
And that is a shame.
macuser:
I don't want to put words in you mouth, Jack but it sounds to me that you believe God owes you something. Do you say He was unjust by choosing the Jews as His people? Look at what God says He is going to do to nations that take land from them, is that your God?
By the way do you think that Satan does not believe Jesus is the Son of God?
Nice to meet you Jack.
Jack Koons:
Fat,
I must admit that the last sentence I wrote did sound like something Oprah would say. So allow me to make the statement, a bit more in the affirmative. This is not the sovereign God I serve, because that is not the sovereign God of the Bible.
The sovereign God of the Bible is full of compassion and takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
Ez. 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
God has His prophet literally pleading with His people, to get them to turn (repent). This is a God of love for the entire nation of Israel, not just a few 'elect' souls. There is no way to take this verse and say, "Oh, God was just talking about the 'elect'". No the text, and context, are quite clear; He is addressing the "house of Israel". Just like when we see the use of "all", and "whosoever" throughout the scriptures; it is not only the 'elect' as you have tried to say, it is what it says it is; "all" and "whosoever". That is the truth of the scripture.
Matt. 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
In this text it is Jesus Himself pleading with Jerusalem. There are two points here that need observation: 1) What Jesus has 'willed' to do (the use of the word "would" shows 'desire'); and 2) Jerusalem's response to this 'call'.
The people of Israel (and Jerusalem) will be judged by Christ.
2 Tim. 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
I am drawing attention to The Lord being "righteous judge". A righteous judge judges righteously. My question therefore is, What does a righteous judge use to make a judgement?
Jack
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