Bible Talk > Sound doctrine

predestination

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Fat:



--- Quote --->>Matt. 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

In this text it is Jesus Himself pleading with Jerusalem. There are two points here that need observation: 1) What Jesus has 'willed' to do (the use of the word "would" shows 'desire'); and 2) Jerusalem's response to this 'call'.<<

--- End quote ---
1) In both your quoted verses there was no Cross to go to.
2) You should read Matthew 23 in context, He was addressing the scribes and Pharisees.

Matthew 23:32-39 HCS
32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' sins! 33 "Snakes! Brood of vipers! How can you escape being condemned to hell? 34 This is why I am sending you prophets, sages, and scribes. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will flog in your synagogues and hound from town to town. 35 So all the righteous blood shed on the earth will be charged to you, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 I assure you: All these things will come on this generation!
37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem! The city who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her. How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, yet you were not willing! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will never see Me again until you say, Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord! "




--- Quote --->>>>The people of Israel (and Jerusalem) will be judged by Christ.

2 Tim. 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

I am drawing attention to The Lord being  "righteous judge". A righteous judge judges righteously. My question therefore is, What does a righteous judge use to make a judgement?<<<
--- End quote ---
What did He use to judge the world before He called for the flood? What did He use to judge Sodom?

All Christians will also be judged by Christ, "but unto all them also that love his appearing".

The Bible tells us of two judgments:
1) The judgment of the lost: Rev. 20:11-15. It is called the "Great White Throne Judgment".
2) The judgment of the saved: 1 Cor. 3:10-23,  2 Cor. 5:10-11.

1 Corinthians 11:32 KJV
But when we are judged , we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Now back to predestination.

2 Thessalonians 2
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work ; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming ; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. 13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


And back to John 6 in case you missed it.

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me …
65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

You see the word all in vs 37? How about the word  Everyone? Do you see where it says, "no one can come to Me unless", in vs 65?

In the vs 65 the word divdwmi is translated as granted or given in some translations.

Bob:
I remembered an audio sermon I uploaded that I thought might be worth some thought.

Here is a cut'n paste from the text.


NO. 187 PROVIDENCE by C.H Spurgeon


I will take a Scripture history and show how the little events must have been of God, as well as
the great results. When Joseph was sent into Egypt by his brothers, in order to provide for them against a day of famine,
we all agree with Joseph’s declaration, “It was God that sent me here.” But now, if we notice each of the little ways
through which this great result was brought to pass, we shall see God in each of them. One day Joseph’s brothers are out
with the sheep. Jacob wants to send to them. Why does he send Joseph? He was his darling son—he loved him better than
all his brothers. Why does he send him away? He sends him. Then why should it have happened at that particular time
that Jacob should want to send at all? However, he did want to send and he did send Joseph—a mere accident you will
say—but quite necessary as the foundation of the structure! Joseph goes. His brothers are in need of pasture and, therefore,
leave Shechem, where Joseph expected to find them and journeys on to Dothan. Why go to Dothan? Was not the
whole land before them? However Joseph goes there. He arrives at Dothan just when they are thinking of him and his
dreams and they put him into a pit. As they are about to eat bread, some Ishmaelites came by. Why did they come there at
all? Why did they come at that particular time? Why were they going to Egypt? Why might they not have been going
another way? Why was it that the Ishmaelite wanted to buy slaves? Why might they not have been trading in some other
commodity? However Joseph is sold. But he is not disposed of on the road to Egypt—he is taken to the land. Why is it
that Potiphar is to buy him? Why is it that Potiphar has a wife, at all? Why is it again, that Potiphar’s wife should be so
full of lust? Why should Joseph get into prison? How is it that the baker and the butler should offend their master? All
chance, as the world has it, but every link necessary to make the chain! They do both offend their master. They are both
put into prison. How is it that they both dream? How is it that Joseph interprets the dreams? How is it that the butler
forgets him? Why? Because if he had remembered him, it would have spoiled it all! Why is it Pharaoh dreams? How can
dreams be under the arrangement of God’s Providence? However, Pharaoh does dream and the butler then thinks of Joseph.
Joseph is brought out of prison and taken before Pharaoh.
Take away any of those simple circumstances—break any one of the links of the chain and the whole of the design is
scattered to the winds! You cannot get the machine to work if any of the minute cogs of the wheels are taken away—
everything becomes disarranged. I think it seems very clear to any man who will dissect not only that but any other history
he likes to fix upon, there must be a God in the little accidents and dealings of daily life, as well as in the great results
that tell upon the pages of history and are recounted in our songs! God is to be seen in little things!
We will now notice in the minutiae of Providence, how punctual Providence always is. You will never wonder more
at Providence than when you consider how well God keeps time with Himself. To return to our history—how is it that
the Ishmaelites should come by just at that time? How many thousand chances there were that their journey might have
been taken just before! There certainly was no special train to call at that station at that particular time so that Joseph’s
brothers might arrange to go and call him. No such thing! And yet if there had been all this arrangement, it could not
have happened better. You know Reuben intended to fetch Joseph out of the pit half an hour later and “the child was
not.” God had these Ishmaelites ready—you do not know how He may have sped them on their journey, or delayed them
so as to bring them on the spot punctually at the exact moment!

Here is the full sermon.

http://inhisword.net/spur/mp3/no187.mp3

Jack Koons:
What God owes me.

Absolutely nothing. Notta. Zero.

Jesus paid it all, All to Him I owe; Sin had left a crimson stain, He washed it white as snow!

Was God unjust to choose the Jews as His people? Absolutely not. There is however a flaw in the 'application' of that question. I understand that you will insinuate that your application is proper; but the fact that you say it, doesn't make it factual.

God choosing the Jews to show His greatness, and God choosing to condemn millions of souls; are two completely different issues.

The one choice is about the use of a nation, while the other is the literal condemnation of untold millions.

"Look at what God says He is going to do to nations that take land from them, is that your God?"

Yes, very much so. I believe wholeheartedly that God is just. The nations to which you refer make a choice; they make the wrong choice. That is why they receive the judgement they do at the hand of God.

"By the way do you think that Satan does not believe Jesus is the Son of God?"

Mauser,

All the questions (except the last one) seemed to be legitimate. Them came the one above. Did you you really ask me that question? Well, let's see. Lucifer (Satan) was the anointed cherub. That probably means that he is pretty sure as to the identity of The Son of God. James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.   All of the fallen angels know who the Son of God is; the problem is that I believe (without taking a rabbit trail, and without opening a new subject) that there was a time in Heaven, when every member of the 'angelic host' was given a choice: God, or Lucifer. (The ones that chose wrong figured out they made the wrong choice, too late.) but the short answer is yes, they all know who Jesus is.

Why I find this question so amazing is that it is Jesus Himself who said, "Be not afraid, only believe." So when you insinuate with your question that salvation comes via another way than belief I'm the Son of God; I am forced to ask, How are you being saved?

And it's nice to meet you as well!

Jack

macuser:
Hello Jack


--- Quote ---God choosing the Jews to show His greatness, and God choosing to condemn millions of souls; are two completely different issues.
--- End quote ---

Oh I see.
Exodus 12:23 "For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians ; and when He sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the LORD will pass over the door and will not allow the destroyer to come in to your houses to smite you.

I wonder why the Egyptians didn't put the blood on their door. It is amazing that Christ crucifixion came on the observance of that day.



--- Quote ---All the questions (except the last one) seemed to be legitimate. Them came the one above. Did you you really ask me that question? Well, let's see. Lucifer (Satan) was the anointed cherub. That probably means that he is pretty sure as to the identity of The Son of God. James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.   All of the fallen angels know who the Son of God is; the problem is that I believe (without taking a rabbit trail, and without opening a new subject) that there was a time in Heaven, when every member of the 'angelic host' was given a choice: God, or Lucifer. (The ones that chose wrong figured out they made the wrong choice, too late.) but the short answer is yes, they all know who Jesus is.
--- End quote ---

All mankind chose to do the wrong thing. Do you disagree?


--- Quote ---Why I find this question so amazing is that it is Jesus Himself who said, "Be not afraid, only believe." So when you insinuate with your question that salvation comes via another way than belief I'm the Son of God; I am forced to ask, How are you being saved?
--- End quote ---

So you are saying it takes more than belief, it takes a choice. That is not consistent with what you said earlier however let's move on. There are two actions, acknowledgement and then repentance.

Repentance is a change of mind, a change of attitude, a complete turning around of your life.

From reading your post you appear to believe that this was done by you on your own accord. But what does the bible teach us?

Acts 5:31 NAS
"He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a
Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.


Acts 11:18 NAS
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well
then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to
life."


Romans 2:4 NAS
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and
patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance ?


2 Corinthians 7:9 NAS
I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made
sorrowful to the point of repentance ; for you were made sorrowful
according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in
anything through us.


2 Corinthians 7:10 NAS
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance
without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces
death.


2 Timothy 2:25 NAS
with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may
grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

So what say you Jack, do you content that the death of sinners because of God's righteous judgement does not bring glory to His name?

Jack Koons:

The following was copied from "Apologetics"/"Regeneration and the Holy Spirit", a topic that was started by Fat.

"Regeneration and the Holy Spirit
“Ye must be born again.” This word of our Lord Jesus has appeared to flame in the way of many, like the drawn sword of the cherub at the gate of Paradise. They have despaired, because this change is beyond their utmost effort. The new birth is from above, and therefore it is not in the creature’s power. Now, it is far from my mind to deny, or ever to conceal, a truth in order to create a false comfort. I freely admit that the new birth is supernatural, and that it cannot be wrought by the sinner’s own self. It would be a poor help to my reader if I were wicked enough to try to cheer him by persuading him to reject or forget what is unquestionably true.
But is it not remarkable that the very chapter in which our Lord makes this sweeping declaration also contains the most explicit statement as to salvation by faith? Read the third chapter of John’s Gospel and do not dwell alone upon its earlier sentences. It is true that the third verse says:
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
But, then, the fourteenth and fifteenth verses speak:
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
The eighteenth verse repeats the same doctrine in the broadest terms:
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
It is clear to every reader that these two statements must agree, since they came from the same lips, and are recorded on the same inspired page. Why should we make a difficulty where there can be none? If one statement assures us of the necessity to salvation of a something, which only God can give, and if another assures us that the Lord will save us upon our believing in Jesus, then we may safely conclude that the Lord will give to those who believe all that is declared to be necessary to salvation. The Lord does, in fact, produce the new birth in all who believe in Jesus; and their believing is the surest evidence that they are born again.
We trust in Jesus for what we cannot do ourselves: if it were in our own power, what need of looking to Him? It is ours to believe, it is the Lord’s to create us anew. He will not believe for us, neither are we to do regenerating work for Him. It is enough for us to obey the gracious command; it is for the Lord to work the new birth in us. He who could go so far as to die on the cross for us, can and will give us all things that are needful for our eternal safety.
“But a saving change of heart is the work of the Holy Spirit.” This also is most true, and let it be far from us to question it, or to forget it. But the work of the Holy Spirit is secret and mysterious, and it can only be perceived by its results. There are mysteries about our natural birth into which it would be an unhallowed curiosity to pry: still more is this the case with the sacred operations of the Spirit of God. “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, or whither it goeth; so is every one that is born of the Spirit.” This much, however, we do know—the mysterious work of the Holy Spirit cannot be a reason for refusing to believe in Jesus to whom that same Spirit beareth witness.
If a man were bidden to sow a field, he could not excuse his neglect by saying that it would be useless to sow unless God caused the seed to grow. He would not be justified in neglecting tillage because the secret energy of God alone can create a harvest. No one is hindered in the ordinary pursuits of life by the fact that unless the Lord build the house they labor in vain that build it. It is certain that no man who believes in Jesus will ever find that the Holy Spirit refuses to work in him: in fact, his believing is the proof that the Spirit is already at work in his heart.
God works in providence, but men do not therefore sit still. They could not move without the divine power giving them life and strength, and yet they proceed upon their way without question; the power being bestowed from day to day by Him in whose hand their breath is, and whose are all their ways. So is it in grace. We repent and believe, though we could do neither if the Lord did not enable us. We forsake sin and trust in Jesus, and then we perceive that the Lord has wrought in us to will and to do of His own good pleasure. It is idle to pretend that there is any real difficulty in the matter.
Some truths which it is hard to explain in words are simple enough in actual experience. There is no discrepancy between the truth that the sinner believes, and that his faith is wrought in him by the Holy Spirit. Only folly can lead men to puzzle themselves about plain matters while their souls are in danger. No man would refuse to enter a lifeboat because he did not know the specific gravity of bodies; neither would a starving man decline to eat till he understood the whole process of nutrition. If you, my reader, will not believe till you can understand all mysteries, you will never be saved at all; and if you allow self-invented difficulties to keep you from accepting pardon through your Lord and Saviour, you will perish in a condemnation which will be richly deserved. Do not commit spiritual suicide through a passion for discussing metaphysical subtleties.

BY C.H. SPURGEON


He is known today as 'The Prince of Preachers' for obvious reasons.

He has certainly spoken the truth. This leaves the reader with a choice: 1) Believe, and be saved; or 2) Continue to not believe, and commit 'spiritual suicide'.

How do we believe? When we are in spiritual darkness, the Light shines upon our souls. While our flesh loves darkness, the Holy Spirit speaks to us through our spirit. We then, like Adam on the Garden must choose; do we accept the Truth, the Life, Jesus; or, do we cling to our pride, and reject the Light.

Herein lies the balance of truth. The Father has given us His Son, along with the witness of the Holy Spirit. We must choose: pronounce ourselves guilty of sin deserving the wrath of God upon our souls, and accept the work of Christ to make atonement for our sin. Only by accepting His finished work can we have eternal life that cannot be lost, or taken away. Acceptance comes through believing; believing comes when we are convinced that God is telling the truth in His Word.

Simply put, the Holy Spirit bears witness to our spirit so that we can believe what God says about us being Hell deserving sinners, in need of God's salvation. Believing God causes us to choose His salvation.

Please understand; providence is not predestination. Providence is the result of 'foreknowledge'. Because God is God, He knew before the foundation of the world, He knew every decision every soul would make concerning ever matter in their lives, including accepting, or rejecting His grace. God in His provision arranged for example every event in Joseph's life.

Ex. 20: 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourthgeneration of them that hate me;

As time passes from generation to generation, each generation that rejects God's grace (by choice), passes this curse on to the next generation (whether they realize it or not). Matt. 27: 25 The answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

God does not predestinates every action in our life; but as Spurgeon stated, God can cause events in our life to happen sooner, or later to fit His schedule. Again, this is providence, not predestination.

God gives all of mankind the same witness in order to believe; it is up to each individual to make a choice, based on that witness.

Notice his words above, "It is ours to believe, it is the Lord’s to create us anew."

Jack

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