Bible Talk > Sound doctrine
predestination
macuser:
You asked me a question Jack, I answerd your question and you're not responding to it.
Does this mean that you agree or disagree that repentance is required for salvation?
Mac
Fat:
--- Quote from: Jack Koons ---Please understand; providence is not predestination. Providence is the result of 'foreknowledge'. Because God is God, He knew before the foundation of the world, He knew every decision every soul would make concerning ever matter in their lives, including accepting, or rejecting His grace. God in His provision arranged for example every event in Joseph's life.
--- End quote ---
I'm having a hard time understanding your example of Joseph's life. Are you suggesting that God did not interfere in the decisions made by men that eventually brought Joseph to be in the position to glorify God?
Nobody is disputing that we must believe, the question is how do we come to that belief.
Mark 9:24 Immediately the boy's father cried out and said, "I do believe ; help my unbelief."
John 6:43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. 46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God ; He has seen the Father. 47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
Jack Koons:
John 12: 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Jack Koons:
"Adam and Eve prove that man is sinful on his own and he needs no help from God.
You have to admit yourself that God knew Adam would sin when he put the tree in the garden."
Both of the above statements are true; however, the latter insinuates that, since God knew what Adam would do, He was predestined to do it. (So much for the Covenant of Works.) Foreknowledge is not predestination. This is the entire problem with Calvinism. Calvinists are taught that foreknowledge is predestination. This is not the case.
Years ago Martha Stewart used information she knew about an event in the trade industry, 'foreknowledge' to make money. She did not make the event happen 'predestination'. This illustration is only to serve as a distinction between foreknowledge, and predestination.
God in His wisdom uses His foreknowledge to intervene (not interfere [there is a difference]) in providence to keep His plan on schedule.
Every interpretation of scripture viewed by a Jehovah's Witness is tweaked to take away the Deity of Christ; every interpretation of scripture viewed by an Arminian is tweaked to only stress the will of man; and every scripture viewed by a Calvinist is tweaked in the light of predestination.
John 3: 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
1) It says God so loved the "world" ...
A Calvinists sees, For God so loved "the elect" ...
2) It says "whosoever believers" ...
A Calvinist sees, "whosoever of the elect that believeth" ...
When we go to schools of 'higher learning' we are taught what the 'school' wants us to know and believe.
For example, I just posted, John 12: 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
A Calvinist sees, And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all of "the elect" men unto me.
Rather than read what is written, we learn to read through a filter that only lets us see what the school wants us to see. Right about now is when people get really upset. You see, it is okay for the school on the right end of the spectrum to say that the left end of the spectrum is teaching false doctrine; but it's not okay for the left end of the spectrum to say that the right end of the spectrum is teaching false doctrine. What is funny to me, is that I have studied at both ends of the spectrum (Dispensationalism and Calvinism) and heard nothing but hate and contempt for the other side.
So I say again, foreknowledge is not predestination!
Fat,
You said,
"1) In both your quoted verses there was no Cross to go to.
2) You should read Matthew 23 in context, He was addressing the scribes and Pharisees. "
Are you now a Dispensationalist?
I am fully aware of who He was talking to, Matthew 23: 1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
This is an example of that filtering.
The Bible says, Matthew 23: 1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Fat says, "1) In both your quoted verses there was no Cross to go to.
2) You should read Matthew 23 in context, He was addressing the scribes and Pharisees. "
Now the Bible says Jesus spake to "the multitude, and to his disciples", Fat says, "He was addressing the scribes and Pharisees."
Did you see that filtering?
Jack
Fat:
There is filtering and misleading.
First let's take John 12:32 and look at it in context.
32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
Here again as in John 6 Christ use the word all. Jack says this is not the elect Christ is speaking of. Then John 12 and John 6 are in conflict with each other. Or that there are no atheist in the world, or Christ Lied. READ ON.
33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die. 34 The crowd then answered Him, "We have heard out of the Law that the Christ is to remain forever ; and how can You say, 'The Son of Man must be lifted up'? Who is this Son of Man ?" 35 So Jesus said to them, "For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes. 36 "While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light." These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them. 37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke : "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT ? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED ?" 39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40 "HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM" 41 These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.
--- Quote ---This is an example of that filtering.
The Bible says, Matthew 23: 1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Fat says, "1) In both your quoted verses there was no Cross to go to.
2) You should read Matthew 23 in context, He was addressing the scribes and Pharisees. "
Now the Bible says Jesus spake to "the multitude, and to his disciples", Fat says, "He was addressing the scribes and Pharisees."
--- End quote ---
And let's look at Matt 23 this verse comes right after the eight woes given to the Pharisees.
--- Quote ---13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people ; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14 ["Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers ; therefore you will receive greater condemnation.] 15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte ; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves. 16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing ; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple is obligated.' 17 "You fools and blind men ! Which is more important, the gold or the temple that sanctified the gold ? 18 "And, 'Whoever swears by the altar, that is nothing, but whoever swears by the offering on it, he is obligated.' 19 "You blind men, which is more important, the offering, or the altar that sanctifies the offering ? 20 "Therefore, whoever swears by the altar, swears both by the altar and by everything on it. 21 "And whoever swears by the temple, swears both by the temple and by Him who dwells within it. 22 "And whoever swears by heaven, swears both by the throne of God and by Him who sits upon it. 23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites ! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law : justice and mercy and faithfulness ; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. 24 "You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel ! 25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites ! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence. 26 "You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also. 27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites ! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. 28 "So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. 29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites ! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31 "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell ? 34 "Therefore , behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes ; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
--- End quote ---
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