Bible Talk > Sound doctrine
predestination
Jack Koons:
What is Israel? What is a Jew?
Here we enter into the world of 'semantics'.
A Calvinist defines the "elect" or "chosen" as the Jews of all ages, along with any Gentiles that get saved.
I have been accused of avoiding John 6; so let's take a look.
John 6
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
According to Calvinism, this passage states the following:
1) vs. 37
A. The "chosen" or "elect" are all those that the Father gives to the Son.
B. All the Father gives to the Son will come to the Son.
C. All (the chosen) that come to the Son, the Son will not cast out.
2) vs. 38 The Son did not come to do His own will, rather, He came to do the will of the Father.
3) vs. 39
A. It is the will of the Father that the Son should loose none of those that were given Him (the "chosen" or "elect")
B. it is the Will of the Father that the Son should raise up al of the "chosen" or "elect" again at the last day.
4) vs. 40
A. It is the will of the Father that every one which sees the Son, and believes on Him (the "chosen" or "elect") may have everlasting live (be saved forever).
B. And the Son will raise him (the "chosen" or "elect") up at the last day.
Did I get that right?
Jack
Fat:
--- Quote from: Jack Koons on June 26, 2013, 10:22:44 am ---What is Israel? What is a Jew?
Here we enter into the world of 'semantics'.
A Calvinist defines the "elect" or "chosen" as the Jews of all ages, along with any Gentiles that get saved.
I have been accused of avoiding John 6; so let's take a look.
John 6
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
According to Calvinism, this passage states the following:
1) vs. 37
A. The "chosen" or "elect" are all those that the Father gives to the Son.
B. All the Father gives to the Son will come to the Son.
C. All (the chosen) that come to the Son, the Son will not cast out.
2) vs. 38 The Son did not come to do His own will, rather, He came to do the will of the Father.
3) vs. 39
A. It is the will of the Father that the Son should loose none of those that were given Him (the "chosen" or "elect")
B. it is the Will of the Father that the Son should raise up al of the "chosen" or "elect" again at the last day.
4) vs. 40
A. It is the will of the Father that every one which sees the Son, and believes on Him (the "chosen" or "elect") may have everlasting live (be saved forever).
B. And the Son will raise him (the "chosen" or "elect") up at the last day.
Did I get that right?
Jack
--- End quote ---
Again Jack you have your biased filters on. Let us look at the post as it was posted.
--- Quote ---John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." …..
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me …
65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
--- End quote ---
In short Jack, you did not get it right try again. See if you can find from the verses you left out, who the elect (chosen) are and where they come from.
Paul has tried to help you out here in Rom 8.
29 For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified.
This is a Bible-based discussion board and the rules state that you must supply biblical reference when asked.
You have been giving a lot of you're feeling good opinions, but I am now making that request that you back up your further statements with the biblical references thank you.
Jack Koons:
A Calvinist defines the "elect" or "chosen" as the Jews of all ages, along with any Gentiles that get saved.
I have been accused of avoiding John 6; so let's take a look.
John 6
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
According to Calvinism, this passage states the following:
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
1) vs. 37
A. The "chosen" or "elect" are all those that the Father gives to the Son.
B. All the Father gives to the Son will come to the Son.
C. All (the chosen) that come to the Son, the Son will not cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
2) vs. 38 The Son did not come to do His own will, rather, He came to do the will of the Father.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
3) vs. 39
A. It is the will of the Father that the Son should loose none of those that were given Him (the "chosen" or "elect")
B. it is the Will of the Father that the Son should raise up al of the "chosen" or "elect" again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
4) vs. 40
A. It is the will of the Father that every one which sees the Son, and believes on Him (the "chosen" or "elect") may have everlasting live (be saved forever).
B. And the Son will raise him (the "chosen" or "elect") up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
5) vs. 44
A. No man (the "chosen" or "elect) can come to the Son, except (or unless) the Father draw him.
B. And the Son will raise him (the "chosen" or "elect") up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
6) vs. 45
A. It is written in the prophets
B. And they (the "chosen" or "elect") shall be all (the "chosen" or "elect") taught of God.
C. Every man (the "chosen" or "elect") therefore that hath heard
D. And (every man [the "chosen" or "elect"]) hath learned of the Father
E. (only the "chosen" or "elect") cometh unto me.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
7) vs. 65
A. Jesus said, No man (the "chosen" or "elect") can come to the Son, except (or unless) they (the "chosen" or "elect") were given to the Son of the Father.
Summary:
The Father has "chosen" or "elected" particular people to be saved. These "chosen" or "elected" people can only go to the Son to be saved if the Father draws them. These "chosen" or "elect" are the Jews of all ages, along with any Gentiles that get saved.
Did I get that right?
Jack
Fat:
No Jack you got it wrong. For instance 'no man' does not mean 'chosen or elect'.
According to Calvinism, this passage states the following:
John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." …..
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me …
65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
Jack Koons:
Fat,
Please define the "chosen" or "elect". Please give your references, and please don't just say, "Those who are predestinated"; that is known as circular reasoning.
I want YOUR DEFINITION OF THE CHOSEN.
Jack
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version