Bible Talk > Sound doctrine

predestination

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Fat:

--- Quote from: calluna on June 18, 2013, 04:37:48 am ---It would appear that he has plans for the saints. It may be supposed that the rest are catered for, too; perhaps, exquisitely. "The measure you use, it will be measured to you." So the measure that we use here is the measure that we can confidently expect in eternity, with no favors given, no matter how religious we may appear. Actions matter, not words, in the end. If we do for others as we expect others to do for us, we will get equitable treatment, and better. If we live selfish lives here, wanting more than we want to give, we can expect to suffer as we made others suffer. If we lie here, we can be expected to be lied to. Forever.

This life will seem like ten minutes.

--- End quote ---

Are you saying that God's plan for man is to wait and react to man's actions?

Are you also saying that a righteous man like Job will have an easy life on earth, or are you referring to the after life only?

I think Psalms 139:16 is addressing life on this earth.

Jack Koons:
Is it a biblical teaching that the sovereign Creator God of the universe predestinates some individual souls to go to Heaven, and predestines the rest to Hell? No.

There is no doubt in my mind that God sovereign. The problem with this doctrine is quite simple! Man in his intellectual state wants to tell God what He is allowed to do in His 'sovereignty', and how He is allowed to do it.

The entire premise of John 3:16 is "whosoever believers", showing God's willingness to save more than the privileged few.

Jack

Fat:

--- Quote from: Jack Koons on June 18, 2013, 11:58:32 am ---Is it a biblical teaching that the sovereign Creator God of the universe predestinates some individual souls to go to Heaven, and predestines the rest to Hell? No.

There is no doubt in my mind that God sovereign. The problem with this doctrine is quite simple! Man in his intellectual state wants to tell God what He is allowed to do in His 'sovereignty', and how He is allowed to do it.

The entire premise of John 3:16 is "whosoever believers", showing God's willingness to save more than the privileged few.

Jack

--- End quote ---


Hello Jack.

I am a Calvinist, I hear it said by many people that Calvinists do not believe that people have the choice in their own salvation. This is not the way it goes, we believe that man is so depraved that without the help of the Holy Spirit he would never make that decision for salvation. We also believe, as Paul, that faith which is necessary for salvation comes from the hearing of the gospel.

I was born in a country where obtaining the knowledge of the gospel is quite easy. But others are born in countries where the gospel cannot be taught under penalty of death. These people that are born in these countries did not choose where they were to be born this was a choice made by their Creator. God did not will these people to sin, none to blame but thenselves.

So what did Christ say about our ability to make the right choice?

Matt 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables ?" 11 Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.

mark 4:33 With many such parables He was speaking the word to them, so far as they were able to hear it; 34 and He did not speak to them without a parable ; but He was explaining everything privately to His own disciples.

matthew 13:34 All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable. 35 This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet : "I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN PARABLES ; I WILL UTTER THINGS HIDDEN SINCE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD."

matthew 16:16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." …..
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me …
65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Man has been condemn by his own sin but some have been saved by Grace, no other reason less they shall boast.

calluna:

--- Quote from: Jack Koons on June 18, 2013, 11:58:32 am ---Is it a biblical teaching that the sovereign Creator God of the universe predestinates some individual souls to go to Heaven, and predestines the rest to Hell? No.

There is no doubt in my mind that God sovereign. The problem with this doctrine is quite simple! Man in his intellectual state wants to tell God what He is allowed to do in His 'sovereignty', and how He is allowed to do it.
--- End quote ---

The problem for the wicked is that they do not want to know that they have to make a choice. Or rather, thousands of choices, because every day is Choose Day. They want to say that it is the 'Sovereign God' who chooses. And He has chosen them. So their hope is that there will be the presumption made by others that they are the elect, whereas they are actually among the most ignoble. So yes, they seem to tell God what He is allowed to do, and, in effect, that they can do as they like, and not suffer the due consequences. That, at any rate, has been the practical effect, and it's not hard to find.

It's quite true that Paul, at first glance, seems to support this appalling notion that God makes some for perdition, but what Paul meant was that, by dying on the cross, by drawing "all men" to Him, Jesus would thereby enforce choice on the whole human race, and that some would not respond appropriately. If all were to respond appropriately, there would be no purpose to the cross. Yes, God knew 'before the creation' who were his, and who not; but we don't. We may 'know' personally, but we cannot prove it to anyone else; and we do not know about anyone else. What is certain is that those who, without checks on personal behavior, anonymously claim to know themselves to be chosen are likely to be feigning belief in order to give themselves credence as genuine teachers. Even the demon-possessed could read the Bible, note that Christians find a plan in their lives, and claim to experience the same. False teachers would do that, and thereby give themselves away. One would suppose that they would have more sense, but they don't.

Jack Koons:

--- Quote from: Fat on June 18, 2013, 01:15:34 pm ---
Hello Jack.

I am a Calvinist, I hear it said by many people that Calvinists do not believe that people have the choice in their own salvation. This is not the way it goes, we believe that man is so depraved that without the help of the Holy Spirit he would never make that decision for salvation. We also believe, as Paul, that faith which is necessary for salvation comes from the hearing of the gospel.

I was born in a country where obtaining the knowledge of the gospel is quite easy. But others are born in countries where the gospel cannot be taught under penalty of death. These people that are born in these countries did not choose where they were to be born this was a choice made by their Creator. God did not will these people to sin, none to blame but thenselves.

So what did Christ say about our ability to make the right choice?

Matt 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables ?" 11 Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.

mark 4:33 With many such parables He was speaking the word to them, so far as they were able to hear it; 34 and He did not speak to them without a parable ; but He was explaining everything privately to His own disciples.

matthew 13:34 All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable. 35 This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet : "I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN PARABLES ; I WILL UTTER THINGS HIDDEN SINCE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD."

matthew 16:16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." …..
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me …
65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Man has been condemn by his own sin but some have been saved by Grace, no other reason less they shall boast.

--- End quote ---


Predestination (since the days of Calvin) have taught the subject (salvation) using the Five points of TULIP.

I only desire to briefly address the first point at this time.

T = Total Depravity

I have no problem with man being depraved. I do not believe it is possible for a man to see God, without God revealing Himself to man. The question of the hour is: how does God reveal Himself to man?

How does a man (I use man as a common gender term) who is depraved see God? My problem with this teaching of "Total" depravity, puts man at a position of condemnation at birth.

In Romans 1 we see,
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed itunto them.

When I was in 9th grade I took biology. One of my assignments was to use a book to identify trees. Without getting into a long description, this tree used the pattern of the different parts of the tree to identify them. I found out as the years went by, everything in nature has order. What I'm saying is, this is the meaning of the above verses.

I was a depraved teenager, but I saw the order of nature. This order is not an accident, it is God traveling Himself at the most basic level. This is the type of evidence God uses to accomplish two things: 1) Order gives evidence of a Creator God; and 2) Evidence brings responsibility.

Then in Romans 2 we see,
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

This is where man chooses.

A sin nature is not the only thing man inherited from Adam. Adam also passed on the knowledge of "good and evil". This knowledge must be dealt with by man. While he may be clueless as to the identity of the true God, the Holy Spirit will bear witness to the truth; mainly that there is a God, and that his sin is evil.

There have been many testimonials of missionaries that were taken completely off course by what seemed at the time to be coincidental ((storms, broken down transportation), where the missionaries were able to lead someone to Christ, because of the event altering the plans of men! God truly does will for all to repent!

1 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Jack

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