Bible Talk > Sound doctrine

predestination

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Fat:

--- Quote from: Jack Koons on June 27, 2013, 04:56:24 pm ---Now that I know you recognize him as an authority on Calvinism, I'm going to share some of his words on Covenant Theology.

Jack

--- End quote ---

Let me share some of his words on Rom 8:29-30


When Paul talks about the way that God brings salvation into our lives, he says, “Those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified” (Rom. 8:30). Here Paul points to a definite order in which the blessings of salvation come to us. Although long ago, before the world was made, God “predestined” us to be his children and to be conformed to the image of his Son, Paul points to the fact that in the actual outworking of his purpose in our lives God “called” us (here in this context, God the Father is specifically in view). Then Paul immediately lists justification and glorification, showing that these come after calling. Paul indicates that there is a definite order in God’s saving purpose (though not every aspect of our salvation is mentioned here). So we will begin our discussion of the different parts of our experience of salvation with the topic of calling....
When Paul says, “Those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified” (Rom. 8:30), he indicates that calling is an act of God. In fact, it is specifically an act of God the Father, for he is the one who predestines people “to be conformed to the image of his Son” (Rom. 8:29). Other verses describe more fully what this calling is. When God calls people in this powerful way, he calls them “out of darkness into his marvelous light” (1 Peter 2:9); he calls them “into the fellowship of his Son” (1 Cor. 1:9; cf. Acts 2:39) and “into his own kingdom and glory” (1 Thess. 2:12; cf. 1 Peter 5:10; 2 Peter 1:3). People who have been called by God “belong to Jesus Christ” (Rom. 1:6). They are called to “be saints” (Rom. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:2), and have come into a realm of peace (1 Cor. 7:15; Col. 3:15), freedom (Gal. 5:13), hope (Eph. 1:18; 4:4), holiness (1 Thess. 4:7), patient endurance of suffering (1 Peter 2:20–21; 3:9), and eternal life (1 Tim. 6:12). These verses indicate that no powerless, merely human calling is in view. This calling is rather a kind of “summons” from the King of the universe and it has such power that it brings about the response that it asks for in people’s hearts. It is an act of God that guarantees a response, because Paul specifies in Romans 8:30 that all who were “called” were also “justified.”1 This calling has the capacity to draw us out of the kingdom of darkness and bring us into God’s kingdom so we can join in full fellowship with him: “God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord” (1 Cor. 1:9).2

This powerful act of God is often referred to as effective calling to distinguish it from the general gospel invitation that goes to all people and which some people reject. This is not to say that human gospel proclamation is not involved. In fact, God’s effective calling comes through the human preaching of the gospel, because Paul says, “To this he called you through our gospel so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ” (2 Thess. 2:14). Of course, there are many who hear the general call of the gospel message and do not respond. But in some cases the gospel call is made so effective by the working of the Holy Spirit in people’s hearts that they do respond; we can say that they have received “effective calling.”

We may define effective calling as follows: Effective calling is an act of God the Father, speaking through the human proclamation of the gospel, in which he summons people to himself in such a way that they respond in saving faith. It is important that we not give the impression that people will be saved by the power of this call apart from their own willing response to the gospel. (For Jack and his only hope) Although it is true that effective calling awakens and brings forth a response from us, we must always insist that this response still has to be a voluntary, willing response in which the individual person puts his or her trust in Christ.


Man aways comes to the point in effective calling that he chooses to follow Christ. That is why it is called effective.

NOW back to the Scripture, Christ words:

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." …..
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me …
65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."


Now if that rubs you and Wayne the wrong way, so be it.

Fat:
FOLLOW UP on Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology

On page 680 under objections to the doctrine of election, paragraph 1. Titled: Election means that we do not have a choice in whether we accept Christ or not.

According to this objection the doctrine of election denies all the gospel invitations that appeal to the will of man and asked people to make a choice in whether to respond to Christ invitation or not. In response to this, we must affirm that the doctrine of election is fully able to accommodate the idea that we have a voluntary choice and we make willingly decisions and accepting or rejecting Christ. Our choices are voluntary because they are what we want to do and what we decide to do. This does not mean that our choices are absolutely free because, God can work sovereignly through our desires so that he guarantees it our choice come about as he has ordained, but this can still be understood as a real choice because God has created us and he ordains that such a choice is real. In short, we can say that God causes us to choose Christ voluntarily.

Fat:

--- Quote from: Jack Koons on June 27, 2013, 04:56:24 pm ---Now that I know you recognize him as an authority on Calvinism, I'm going to share some of his words on Covenant Theology.

Jack

--- End quote ---

My take on Covenant Theology AKA 'Replacement theology' July 10, 2012

http://biblediscussion.org/index.php/topic,152.0.html

Reply #8



Hello everyone  

Hello

Paul seem to know this debate would come up and he addressed it in Roman 11. He makes it clear that the roots of the Church are Judaism and that gentiles will receive their salvation because they have been grafted to and are feed by that root.

He gives a warning:

17 Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, though a wild olive branch, were grafted in among them and have come to share in the rich root of the cultivated olive tree, 18 do not brag that you are better than those branches. But if you do brag—you do not sustain the root, but the root sustains you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 True enough; they were broken off by unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either. 22 Therefore, consider God’s kindness and severity: severity toward those who have fallen but God’s kindness toward you—if you remain in His kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, because God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from your native wild olive and against nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these—the natural branches—be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 So that you will not be conceited, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery: A partial hardening has come to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
The Liberator will come from Zion;
He will turn away godlessness from Jacob.
27 
And this will be My covenant with them
when I take away their sins.

Jack Koons:
Fat,

Do you agree?

Predestination means you have no free will. Furthermore, with no free will, you have no choice.

On the the other hand:

If you have a choice, that means you have free will, therefore, if you have free will; you are not predestinated.

Now only one of these can be true. And you Fat, believe it's predestination.

Did I get that right?

Jack

Fat:

--- Quote from: Jack Koons on June 28, 2013, 05:07:38 am ---Fat,

Do you agree?

Predestination means you have no free will. Furthermore, with no free will, you have no choice.

On the the other hand:

If you have a choice, that means you have free will, therefore, if you have free will; you are not predestinated.

Now only one of these can be true. And you Fat, believe it's predestination.

Did I get that right?

Jack

--- End quote ---

What's the matter here Jack, are your filters getting clogged?  You been taught to put everybody in a box, this is akin to putting every person in the box because of their race.

See Reply #51, Grudem says it well.  Man's problem is that on his own he makes the wrong choice. (Genesis 3)

From post 7 So what did Christ say about our ability to make the right choice?

Now you had a point to make on Grudem and Replacement theology? And you were goiung to tell us what John 6 really says.

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