predestination

[Fat]

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>>>>I would refer to your reference of "Wikipedia", except for the facts that: 1) The material in "Wikipedia" hardly give enough information to teach a "Calvinism 101" course; and 2) With language such as "some Calvinists believe" being used repetitiously, it is not suitable to use as a proper reference.
<<<<<

I'm going to do your research for you Jack, sorry.

>>>>>I'm pleased to know that you believe that I have received the "internal" call of the Father, which would mean (according to you), that I am part of the "elect". <<<<

Absolutely, did you believe the Calvinist considered Armenians not saved? Our debate is how you and I got to where we are, it is not a debate on the fact that we arrived.

>>>>>>Your entire argument supporting predestination is that we don't have a choice (in case you weren't aware, that is the meaning of having a "free will".)

You just stated that I "did have that choice".

In sentence 3) A. "At that time your life you could've no more said no to Christ then you could fly by flapping your arms," you are saying I did not have the ability to say, "No"; but then say I had a choice in the same complete sentence.

All this time you have been saying, I had NO CHOICE; now, you just said, (about me), "but you did have that choice".<<<<<<

This is where your boxes and your filters are really clouding your mind. When did I say you had no choice? What I'm saying to you is that without the help of the Holy Spirit your choice would be to stay in the flesh. I tried to tell you that Adam had a choice and he chose the world. That is the nature of man, he will choose the world over a commitment to Christ. Another thing you don't seem to understand is that just because a person says a magic prayer that he believes in Christ that he is going to receive salvation. Salvation does not come until there is repentance and there is no repentance without the Holy Spirit. (2 Corinthians 7:9-10,  2 Timothy 2:25 )

What is your definition of repentance?

We've had a few posters on this board that believe repentance is not necessary for salvation. Are you one of those?


 What's really hard for me to understand is how Arminianism teaches that a man on his own can become so righteous that he can defeat Satan without the help of the Holy Spirit. That he can be so righteous that on his own he can go out and seek God. (Romans 3:9-11)

The righteousness does not come before salvation but after.

Romans 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe ; for there is no distinction

Rom 8
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow , he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate , them he also called : and whom he called , them he also justified : and whom he justified, them he also glorified

[Jack Koons]

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Fat,

You stated, "This is where your boxes and your filters are really clouding your mind. When did I say you had no choice? What I'm saying to you is that without the help of the Holy Spirit your choice would be to stay in the flesh. I tried to tell you that Adam had a choice and he chose the world. That is the nature of man, he will choose the world over a commitment to Christ. Another thing you don't seem to understand is that just because a person says a magic prayer that he believes in Christ that he is going to receive salvation. Salvation does not come until there is repentance and there is no repentance without the Holy Spirit. (2 Corinthians 7:9-10,  2 Timothy 2:25 )"


On my thread, "Is there a better way"?, you stated, "So you failed to influence them, and if you would not have failed they may be alive today. If only you could have said the right words. That's so sad, how can you sleep at night."

You also stated, "Jack if they, your jar-heads, had free will then your compassion has nothing to do with the fact that you failed to influence their will (free choice). Your choice of Scripture about compassion do not address your failure."

You were contending that if those Marines had a free will, I failed to influence their will (free choice).

Notice these verses:

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Sin entered I to the world the moment Adam made the wrong choice. Since that time "death by sin" passed upon all men.

The Marines of which I spoke had "death" passed on them because of the sin of Adam, agreed? The first question I have for you is this; would you agree that when I gave those two Marines the gospel, "elect", or not, they received what you as a Calvinist refer to as the "external call"?

Jack

[Fat]

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On my thread, "Is there a better way"?, you stated, "So you failed to influence them, and if you would not have failed they may be alive today. If only you could have said the right words. That's so sad, how can you sleep at night."

You also stated, "Jack if they, your jar-heads, had free will then your compassion has nothing to do with the fact that you failed to influence their will (free choice). Your choice of Scripture about compassion do not address your failure."

You were contending that if those Marines had a free will, I failed to influence their will (free choice).

Sorry if it's not clear Jack, I'm speaking as you would defined arminianism free will. If you believe what you tell me you believe, you must believe that you failed to convince them to make the right choice.

Again I steer you to my post 7

Hello Jack.

I am a Calvinist, I hear it said by many people that Calvinists do not believe that people have the choice in their own salvation. This is not the way it goes, we believe that man is so depraved that without the help of the Holy Spirit he would never make that decision for salvation. We also believe, as Paul, that faith which is necessary for salvation comes from the hearing of the gospel.

 In other words Jack, in my world you did not fail because at work is done by the Holy Spirit. But in your world you must have failed because they were not convinced by you to make the right choice.

[Jack Koons]

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Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Sin entered I to the world the moment Adam made the wrong choice. Since that time "death by sin" passed upon all men.

The Marines of which I spoke had "death" passed on them because of the sin of Adam, agreed? The first question I have for you is this; would you agree that when I gave those two Marines the gospel, "elect", or not, they received what you as a Calvinist refer to as the "external call"?

Jack

[Fat]

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Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Sin entered I to the world the moment Adam made the wrong choice. Since that time "death by sin" passed upon all men.

The Marines of which I spoke had "death" passed on them because of the sin of Adam, agreed? (NO! Romans 3:23 For all have sinned , and come short of the glory of God;) The first question I have for you is this; would you agree that when I gave those two Marines the gospel, "elect", or not, they received what you as a Calvinist refer to as the "external call"?

Jack

If you preached the gospel of repentance, Yes.

Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Mark 1:14 Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, 15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand ; repent and believe in the gospel."

Luke 24:46 and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted , that your sins may be blotted out , when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

And how do we get to REPENTACE?

Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

What is your definition of repentance? Could your Marines repent for the sin of Adam?

Please don't blow off this question Jack.

[Jack Koons]

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Fat,

You really need to: 1) Read the scriptures presented; and 2) Read the question presented.


Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

This verse says four things:
1) by one man sin entered the world
2 and death by sin (also entered the world)
3) so death passed upon all men (not Adam's death, but the death because of disobedience)
4) for that all have sinned this is the passing of the sin nature, not Adam's "original" sin (as taught by Catholics).

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

This verse simply defines sin (sin is the transgression of the law).

Sin entered I to the world the moment Adam made the wrong choice. Since that time "death by sin" passed upon all men.

The Marines of which I spoke had "death" passed on them because of the sin of Adam, agreed? (The sin nature was passed, not Adam's sin) The first question I have for you is this; would you agree that when I gave those two Marines the gospel, (the death, burial, and bodily resurrection from the dead, and the need to repent, knowing that you are a sinner deserving the wrath of God in everlasting damnation), "elect", or not, they received what you as a Calvinist refer to as the "external call"?

Jack

[Fat]

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Fat,

You really need to: 1) Read the scriptures presented; and 2) Read the question presented.


Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

This verse says four things:
1) by one man sin entered the world
2 and death by sin (also entered the world)
3) so death passed upon all men (not Adam's death, but the death because of disobedience)
4) for that all have sinned this is the passing of the sin nature, not Adam's "original" sin (as taught by Catholics).

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

This verse simply defines sin (sin is the transgression of the law).

Sin entered I to the world the moment Adam made the wrong choice. Since that time "death by sin" passed upon all men.

The Marines of which I spoke had "death" passed on them because of the sin of Adam, agreed? (The sin nature was passed, not Adam's sin) The first question I have for you is this; would you agree that when I gave those two Marines the gospel, (the death, burial, and bodily resurrection from the dead, and the need to repent, knowing that you are a sinner deserving the wrath of God in everlasting damnation), "elect", or not, they received what you as a Calvinist refer to as the "external call"?

Jack

1You asked me 2 questions and I answered both of them.
2) You have to learn that any verse in the bible can not be exclusive from the rest of the bible.
3) I asked you 2 questions and like a typical Arminian you have no answer for the most simple questions.

Bob I think Jack has run his course here, please lock the thread. It's not a waist however, it points out the problems of Arminianism.

[admin]

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I could have split the topic for you if you liked but it's your thread. Sorry Phat for being pushy but you guys don't seem to be talking to each other.