predestination

[Fat]

• 

Psalms 139:16 HCSB
"Your eyes saw me when I was formless; all ⌊my⌋ days were written in Your book and planned before a single one of them began."

Has God planned our lives for us?

[Moss]

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I believe He plans on our reaction to stimuli that He creates. He knows exactly what we are going to do to the situation  He creates around us.

[clark thompson]

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God know where I was going before He made me, in a way He chose me to follow Him.

[Zant Law]

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God know where I was going before He made me, in a way He chose me to follow Him.

Amen!

[calluna]

• 

Psalms 139:16 HCSB
"Your eyes saw me when I was formless; all ⌊my⌋ days were written in Your book and planned before a single one of them began."

Has God planned our lives for us?

It would appear that he has plans for the saints. It may be supposed that the rest are catered for, too; perhaps, exquisitely. "The measure you use, it will be measured to you." So the measure that we use here is the measure that we can confidently expect in eternity, with no favors given, no matter how religious we may appear. Actions matter, not words, in the end. If we do for others as we expect others to do for us, we will get equitable treatment, and better. If we live selfish lives here, wanting more than we want to give, we can expect to suffer as we made others suffer. If we lie here, we can be expected to be lied to. Forever.

This life will seem like ten minutes.

[Fat]

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It would appear that he has plans for the saints. It may be supposed that the rest are catered for, too; perhaps, exquisitely. "The measure you use, it will be measured to you." So the measure that we use here is the measure that we can confidently expect in eternity, with no favors given, no matter how religious we may appear. Actions matter, not words, in the end. If we do for others as we expect others to do for us, we will get equitable treatment, and better. If we live selfish lives here, wanting more than we want to give, we can expect to suffer as we made others suffer. If we lie here, we can be expected to be lied to. Forever.

This life will seem like ten minutes.

Are you saying that God's plan for man is to wait and react to man's actions?

Are you also saying that a righteous man like Job will have an easy life on earth, or are you referring to the after life only?

I think Psalms 139:16 is addressing life on this earth.

[Jack Koons]

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Is it a biblical teaching that the sovereign Creator God of the universe predestinates some individual souls to go to Heaven, and predestines the rest to Hell? No.

There is no doubt in my mind that God sovereign. The problem with this doctrine is quite simple! Man in his intellectual state wants to tell God what He is allowed to do in His 'sovereignty', and how He is allowed to do it.

The entire premise of John 3:16 is "whosoever believers", showing God's willingness to save more than the privileged few.

Jack

[Fat]

• 

Is it a biblical teaching that the sovereign Creator God of the universe predestinates some individual souls to go to Heaven, and predestines the rest to Hell? No.

There is no doubt in my mind that God sovereign. The problem with this doctrine is quite simple! Man in his intellectual state wants to tell God what He is allowed to do in His 'sovereignty', and how He is allowed to do it.

The entire premise of John 3:16 is "whosoever believers", showing God's willingness to save more than the privileged few.

Jack

Hello Jack.

I am a Calvinist, I hear it said by many people that Calvinists do not believe that people have the choice in their own salvation. This is not the way it goes, we believe that man is so depraved that without the help of the Holy Spirit he would never make that decision for salvation. We also believe, as Paul, that faith which is necessary for salvation comes from the hearing of the gospel.

I was born in a country where obtaining the knowledge of the gospel is quite easy. But others are born in countries where the gospel cannot be taught under penalty of death. These people that are born in these countries did not choose where they were to be born this was a choice made by their Creator. God did not will these people to sin, none to blame but thenselves.

So what did Christ say about our ability to make the right choice?

Matt 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables ?" 11 Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.

mark 4:33 With many such parables He was speaking the word to them, so far as they were able to hear it; 34 and He did not speak to them without a parable ; but He was explaining everything privately to His own disciples.

matthew 13:34 All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable. 35 This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet : "I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN PARABLES ; I WILL UTTER THINGS HIDDEN SINCE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD."

matthew 16:16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." …..
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me …
65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Man has been condemn by his own sin but some have been saved by Grace, no other reason less they shall boast.

[calluna]

• 

Is it a biblical teaching that the sovereign Creator God of the universe predestinates some individual souls to go to Heaven, and predestines the rest to Hell? No.

There is no doubt in my mind that God sovereign. The problem with this doctrine is quite simple! Man in his intellectual state wants to tell God what He is allowed to do in His 'sovereignty', and how He is allowed to do it.

The problem for the wicked is that they do not want to know that they have to make a choice. Or rather, thousands of choices, because every day is Choose Day. They want to say that it is the 'Sovereign God' who chooses. And He has chosen them. So their hope is that there will be the presumption made by others that they are the elect, whereas they are actually among the most ignoble. So yes, they seem to tell God what He is allowed to do, and, in effect, that they can do as they like, and not suffer the due consequences. That, at any rate, has been the practical effect, and it's not hard to find.

It's quite true that Paul, at first glance, seems to support this appalling notion that God makes some for perdition, but what Paul meant was that, by dying on the cross, by drawing "all men" to Him, Jesus would thereby enforce choice on the whole human race, and that some would not respond appropriately. If all were to respond appropriately, there would be no purpose to the cross. Yes, God knew 'before the creation' who were his, and who not; but we don't. We may 'know' personally, but we cannot prove it to anyone else; and we do not know about anyone else. What is certain is that those who, without checks on personal behavior, anonymously claim to know themselves to be chosen are likely to be feigning belief in order to give themselves credence as genuine teachers. Even the demon-possessed could read the Bible, note that Christians find a plan in their lives, and claim to experience the same. False teachers would do that, and thereby give themselves away. One would suppose that they would have more sense, but they don't.

[Jack Koons]

• 

Hello Jack.

I am a Calvinist, I hear it said by many people that Calvinists do not believe that people have the choice in their own salvation. This is not the way it goes, we believe that man is so depraved that without the help of the Holy Spirit he would never make that decision for salvation. We also believe, as Paul, that faith which is necessary for salvation comes from the hearing of the gospel.

I was born in a country where obtaining the knowledge of the gospel is quite easy. But others are born in countries where the gospel cannot be taught under penalty of death. These people that are born in these countries did not choose where they were to be born this was a choice made by their Creator. God did not will these people to sin, none to blame but thenselves.

So what did Christ say about our ability to make the right choice?

Matt 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables ?" 11 Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.

mark 4:33 With many such parables He was speaking the word to them, so far as they were able to hear it; 34 and He did not speak to them without a parable ; but He was explaining everything privately to His own disciples.

matthew 13:34 All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable. 35 This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet : "I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN PARABLES ; I WILL UTTER THINGS HIDDEN SINCE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD."

matthew 16:16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." …..
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me …
65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Man has been condemn by his own sin but some have been saved by Grace, no other reason less they shall boast.

Predestination (since the days of Calvin) have taught the subject (salvation) using the Five points of TULIP.

I only desire to briefly address the first point at this time.

T = Total Depravity

I have no problem with man being depraved. I do not believe it is possible for a man to see God, without God revealing Himself to man. The question of the hour is: how does God reveal Himself to man?

How does a man (I use man as a common gender term) who is depraved see God? My problem with this teaching of "Total" depravity, puts man at a position of condemnation at birth.

In Romans 1 we see,
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed itunto them.

When I was in 9th grade I took biology. One of my assignments was to use a book to identify trees. Without getting into a long description, this tree used the pattern of the different parts of the tree to identify them. I found out as the years went by, everything in nature has order. What I'm saying is, this is the meaning of the above verses.

I was a depraved teenager, but I saw the order of nature. This order is not an accident, it is God traveling Himself at the most basic level. This is the type of evidence God uses to accomplish two things: 1) Order gives evidence of a Creator God; and 2) Evidence brings responsibility.

Then in Romans 2 we see,
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

This is where man chooses.

A sin nature is not the only thing man inherited from Adam. Adam also passed on the knowledge of "good and evil". This knowledge must be dealt with by man. While he may be clueless as to the identity of the true God, the Holy Spirit will bear witness to the truth; mainly that there is a God, and that his sin is evil.

There have been many testimonials of missionaries that were taken completely off course by what seemed at the time to be coincidental ((storms, broken down transportation), where the missionaries were able to lead someone to Christ, because of the event altering the plans of men! God truly does will for all to repent!

1 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Jack

[Fat]

• 

That is 2 Peter 3:9 and when read in context you see it refers to the elect not all man kind.

Some other pertinent verses about the doctrine of predestination.

First Romans 9:11
Romans 9:6-16
 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Neither are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants. On the contrary, in Isaac your seed will be called. 8 That is, it is not the children by physical descent who are God's children, but the children of the promise are considered seed. 9 For this is the statement of the promise: At this time I will come, and Sarah will have a son. 10 And not only that, but also when Rebekah became pregnant by Isaac our forefather 11 (for though they had not been born yet or done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to election (ejklevgw) might stand, 12 not from works but from the One who calls) she was told: The older will serve the younger. 13 As it is written: Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.

The word used for election is the same word used to describe Paul's conversion. Acts 9:15 translated as chosen.

Acts 9:10-20 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said , Behold , I am here, Lord. 11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise , and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold , he prayeth , 12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in , and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight . 13 Then Ananias answered , Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: 14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. 15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way : for he is a chosen (ejklevgw) vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake . 17 And Ananias went his way , and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said , Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest , hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight , and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose , and was baptized . 19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened . Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. 20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

God truly does will for all to repent!

Not really.

Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen (ejklevgw) us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

[Jack Koons]

• 

That is 2 Peter 3:9 and when read in context you see it refers to the elect not all man kind.

Some other pertinent verses about the doctrine of predestination.

First Romans 9:11
Romans 9:6-16
 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Neither are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants. On the contrary, in Isaac your seed will be called. 8 That is, it is not the children by physical descent who are God's children, but the children of the promise are considered seed. 9 For this is the statement of the promise: At this time I will come, and Sarah will have a son. 10 And not only that, but also when Rebekah became pregnant by Isaac our forefather 11 (for though they had not been born yet or done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to election (ejklevgw) might stand, 12 not from works but from the One who calls) she was told: The older will serve the younger. 13 As it is written: Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.

The word used for election is the same word used to describe Paul's conversion. Acts 9:15 translated as chosen.

Acts 9:10-20 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said , Behold , I am here, Lord. 11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise , and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold , he prayeth , 12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in , and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight . 13 Then Ananias answered , Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: 14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. 15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way : for he is a chosen (ejklevgw) vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake . 17 And Ananias went his way , and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said , Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest , hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight , and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose , and was baptized . 19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened . Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. 20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.



Not really.

Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen (ejklevgw) us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Hello Fat,

He we address "U = Unconditional Election"

This really is one of the most interesting parts of 'predestination'. While the cause of people being condemned (according to Calvinists) is "Total Depravity", (which is incorrect ... Depravity is NOT why people are condemned ... According to John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God., people are condemned for NOT BELIEVING); the reason people have eternal life (according to Calvinists), is because of "Unconditional Election".

The teaching is that unconditional election is the act of the Sovereign God determining by His will, who will receive eternal life.

Of course the opposite side of that same coin is that by not choosing souls to give eternal life, He by default is choosing to condemn the rest.

Consider this: Since man has no part is his salvation (it is absolutely the grace of God, with NO input from man; the same has to be true for those who are condemned. The fallacy of this teaching is that since the fall, NOT ONE PERSON has had a CHOICE in their eternal destiny: all the condemned are condemned, not being given a choice to believe, or not believe; and, all of the saved are saved, not given a choice to believe or not believe.

In an effort to glorify God the Calvinists teach that God is sovereign in all things, and, they are correct. The problem is their 'definition' of sovereign. I absolutely believe God is sovereign.

The following is from the Merriam-Webster 2013 Dictionary:
sov·er·eign
noun
1a : one possessing or held to possess supreme political power orsovereignty
b : one that exercises supremeauthority within a limited sphere
c : an acknowledged leader : arbiter
2 : any of various gold coins of theUnited Kingdom
Variants: also sov·ran \ˈsä-v(ə-)rən, -vərn also ˈsə-\
Origin: Middle English soverain, fromAnglo-French soverein, fromsoverein, adjective (see 2sovereign ).
First use: 13th century
Synonyms: autocrat, potentate,ruler, monarch (also sovran)

Allow me to share my thoughts.

By God choosing who gets saved (and who doesn't by default), he receives no glory at all. What has He done to receive glory? Think about it. Let's say God created 1,000,000,000 souls. Since we know far more people go to Hell than Heaven (whether we like it or not it is a Biblical fact), we'll say 1,000,000 souls go to Heaven, leaving 999,000,000 people condemned. Where is the glory in that? God who knows all things; past, present, and future, knew (when creating 1,000,000,000 souls) that 999,000,000 souls would be damned forever. He knew that He was about to create 999,000,000 souls that would ultimately be condemned. Souls that He had absolutely no intention of ever saving. This ultimately means God created them to be damned, and they had NO CHOICE in the matter.

This is not the sovereign God I serve.

Jack

[Fat]

• 

Let me say one thing before I get started. I see in your profile you are a Baptist. For the most part Baptist are Calvinist, with some exceptions. It also appears to me you are not aware of the deference in Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism.  John MacArthur and John Piper are Calvinist not Hyper-Calvinism they do not teach Hyper-Calvinism as you are trying to brand them and mainstream Calvinist with.

>>He we address "U = Unconditional Election"

This really is one of the most interesting parts of 'predestination'. While the cause of people being condemned (according to Calvinists) is "Total Depravity", (which is incorrect ... Depravity is NOT why people are condemned ... According to John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God., people are condemned for NOT BELIEVING); the reason people have eternal life (according to Calvinists), is because of "Unconditional Election".<<<

The real question here and is you Arminians fail to address is how does a sinner come to believe? In have posted the answer in Christ words in my Reply #7. You side stepped that question by switching the subject to your definition of TULIP.  But you are now bring yourself back to that point, HOW DOES ONE COME TO BELIEVE UNTO HIM? Answer is in John 6 above.

>>The teaching is that unconditional election is the act of the Sovereign God determining by His will, who will receive eternal life.

Of course the opposite side of that same coin is that by not choosing souls to give eternal life, He by default is choosing to condemn the rest.<<<

I could make the same argument from your first paragraph. If God only chooses to save those that believe He is choosing to condemn the rest.

>>>Consider this: Since man has no part is his salvation (it is absolutely the grace of God, with NO input from man; the same has to be true for those who are condemned. The fallacy of this teaching is that since the fall, NOT ONE PERSON has had a CHOICE in their eternal destiny: all the condemned are condemned, not being given a choice to believe, or not believe; and, all of the saved are saved, not given a choice to believe or not believe.<<<

Again I point you to John 6.

>>>>The following is from the Merriam-Webster 2013 Dictionary:
sov·er·eign<<<

I prefer Strong's when it comes to the bible.


 Strong's Number:   4437
  
Original Word
Word Origin
wklm
corresponding to (04438)
Transliterated Word
TDNT Entry
Malkuw (Aramaic)
TWOT - 2829c
Phonetic Spelling
Parts of Speech
mal-koo'   
Noun Feminine
 Definition
   1.   royalty, reign, kingdom
   1.   royalty, kingship, kingly authority
   2.   kingdom
   3.   realm (of territory)
   4.   reign (of time)
 
 NAS Word Usage - Total: 57
government affairs 1, kingdom 38, kingdoms 3, realm 4, reign 4, royal 3, sovereignty 4

>>By God choosing who gets saved (and who doesn't by default), he receives no glory at all. What has He done to receive glory? Think about it. Let's say God created 1,000,000,000 souls. Since we know far more people go to Hell than Heaven (whether we like it or not it is a Biblical fact), we'll say 1,000,000 souls go to Heaven, leaving 999,000,000 people condemned. Where is the glory in that? God who knows all things; past, present, and future, knew (when creating 1,000,000,000 souls) that 999,000,000 souls would be damned forever. He knew that He was about to create 999,000,000 souls that would ultimately be condemned. Souls that He had absolutely no intention of ever saving. This ultimately means God created them to be damned, and they had NO CHOICE in the matter.<<

What sinner seeks God without His help?

Man has condemned himself. God is a Just God and judges sin and those who commit it but He does not see the sins of those who are covered by the Cross.

>>This is not the sovereign God I serve.<<

That sounds like something you would hear from Oprah Winfrey.
And that is a shame.

[macuser]

• 

I don't want to put words in you mouth, Jack but it sounds to me that you believe God owes you something. Do you say He was unjust by choosing the Jews as His people? Look at what God says He is going to do to nations that take land from them, is that your God?

By the way do you think that Satan does not believe Jesus is the Son of God?

Nice to meet you Jack.

[Jack Koons]

• 

Fat,

I must admit that the last sentence I wrote did sound like something Oprah would say. So allow me to make the statement, a bit more in the affirmative. This is not the sovereign God I serve, because that is not the sovereign God of the Bible.

The sovereign God of the Bible is full of compassion and takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

Ez. 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

God has His prophet literally pleading with His people, to get them to turn (repent). This is a God of love for the entire nation of Israel, not just a few 'elect' souls. There is no way to take this verse and say, "Oh, God was just talking about the 'elect'". No the text, and context, are quite clear; He is addressing the "house of Israel". Just like when we see the use of "all", and "whosoever" throughout the scriptures; it is not only the 'elect' as you have tried to say, it is what it says it is; "all" and "whosoever". That is the truth of the scripture.

Matt. 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

In this text it is Jesus Himself pleading with Jerusalem. There are two points here that need observation: 1) What Jesus has 'willed' to do (the use of the word "would" shows 'desire'); and 2) Jerusalem's response to this 'call'.

The people of Israel (and Jerusalem) will be judged by Christ.

2 Tim. 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

I am drawing attention to The Lord being  "righteous judge". A righteous judge judges righteously. My question therefore is, What does a righteous judge use to make a judgement?

Jack