predestination

[Jack Koons]

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Fat,

Are you familiar with Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology?

Jack

[Fat]

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Fat,

Are you familiar with Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology?

Jack

Yes

[Jack Koons]

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Fat,

Then you're aware he is a Calvinist who is Professor of Theology and Biblical Studies at Pheonix Seminary?

Jack

[Fat]

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Fat,

Then you're aware he is a Calvinist who is Professor of Theology and Biblical Studies at Pheonix Seminary?

Jack

Turn to page 692 (in my copy) Ch 33 under A) Effective Calling. Do you have the page?

[Jack Koons]

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Now that I know you recognize him as an authority on Calvinism, I'm going to share some of his words on Covenant Theology.

Jack

[Fat]

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Now that I know you recognize him as an authority on Calvinism, I'm going to share some of his words on Covenant Theology.

Jack

Let me share some of his words on Rom 8:29-30


When Paul talks about the way that God brings salvation into our lives, he says, “Those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified” (Rom. 8:30). Here Paul points to a definite order in which the blessings of salvation come to us. Although long ago, before the world was made, God “predestined” us to be his children and to be conformed to the image of his Son, Paul points to the fact that in the actual outworking of his purpose in our lives God “called” us (here in this context, God the Father is specifically in view). Then Paul immediately lists justification and glorification, showing that these come after calling. Paul indicates that there is a definite order in God’s saving purpose (though not every aspect of our salvation is mentioned here). So we will begin our discussion of the different parts of our experience of salvation with the topic of calling....
When Paul says, “Those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified” (Rom. 8:30), he indicates that calling is an act of God. In fact, it is specifically an act of God the Father, for he is the one who predestines people “to be conformed to the image of his Son” (Rom. 8:29). Other verses describe more fully what this calling is. When God calls people in this powerful way, he calls them “out of darkness into his marvelous light” (1 Peter 2:9); he calls them “into the fellowship of his Son” (1 Cor. 1:9; cf. Acts 2:39) and “into his own kingdom and glory” (1 Thess. 2:12; cf. 1 Peter 5:10; 2 Peter 1:3). People who have been called by God “belong to Jesus Christ” (Rom. 1:6). They are called to “be saints” (Rom. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:2), and have come into a realm of peace (1 Cor. 7:15; Col. 3:15), freedom (Gal. 5:13), hope (Eph. 1:18; 4:4), holiness (1 Thess. 4:7), patient endurance of suffering (1 Peter 2:20–21; 3:9), and eternal life (1 Tim. 6:12). These verses indicate that no powerless, merely human calling is in view. This calling is rather a kind of “summons” from the King of the universe and it has such power that it brings about the response that it asks for in people’s hearts. It is an act of God that guarantees a response, because Paul specifies in Romans 8:30 that all who were “called” were also “justified.”1 This calling has the capacity to draw us out of the kingdom of darkness and bring us into God’s kingdom so we can join in full fellowship with him: “God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord” (1 Cor. 1:9).2

This powerful act of God is often referred to as effective calling to distinguish it from the general gospel invitation that goes to all people and which some people reject. This is not to say that human gospel proclamation is not involved. In fact, God’s effective calling comes through the human preaching of the gospel, because Paul says, “To this he called you through our gospel so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ” (2 Thess. 2:14). Of course, there are many who hear the general call of the gospel message and do not respond. But in some cases the gospel call is made so effective by the working of the Holy Spirit in people’s hearts that they do respond; we can say that they have received “effective calling.”

We may define effective calling as follows: Effective calling is an act of God the Father, speaking through the human proclamation of the gospel, in which he summons people to himself in such a way that they respond in saving faith. It is important that we not give the impression that people will be saved by the power of this call apart from their own willing response to the gospel. (For Jack and his only hope) Although it is true that effective calling awakens and brings forth a response from us, we must always insist that this response still has to be a voluntary, willing response in which the individual person puts his or her trust in Christ.


Man aways comes to the point in effective calling that he chooses to follow Christ. That is why it is called effective.

NOW back to the Scripture, Christ words:

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." …..
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me …
65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."


Now if that rubs you and Wayne the wrong way, so be it.

[Fat]

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FOLLOW UP on Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology

On page 680 under objections to the doctrine of election, paragraph 1. Titled: Election means that we do not have a choice in whether we accept Christ or not.

According to this objection the doctrine of election denies all the gospel invitations that appeal to the will of man and asked people to make a choice in whether to respond to Christ invitation or not. In response to this, we must affirm that the doctrine of election is fully able to accommodate the idea that we have a voluntary choice and we make willingly decisions and accepting or rejecting Christ. Our choices are voluntary because they are what we want to do and what we decide to do. This does not mean that our choices are absolutely free because, God can work sovereignly through our desires so that he guarantees it our choice come about as he has ordained, but this can still be understood as a real choice because God has created us and he ordains that such a choice is real. In short, we can say that God causes us to choose Christ voluntarily.

[Fat]

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Now that I know you recognize him as an authority on Calvinism, I'm going to share some of his words on Covenant Theology.

Jack

My take on Covenant Theology AKA 'Replacement theology' July 10, 2012

http://biblediscussion.org/index.php/topic,152.0.html

Reply #8



Hello everyone  

Hello

Paul seem to know this debate would come up and he addressed it in Roman 11. He makes it clear that the roots of the Church are Judaism and that gentiles will receive their salvation because they have been grafted to and are feed by that root.

He gives a warning:

17 Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, though a wild olive branch, were grafted in among them and have come to share in the rich root of the cultivated olive tree, 18 do not brag that you are better than those branches. But if you do brag—you do not sustain the root, but the root sustains you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 True enough; they were broken off by unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either. 22 Therefore, consider God’s kindness and severity: severity toward those who have fallen but God’s kindness toward you—if you remain in His kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, because God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from your native wild olive and against nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these—the natural branches—be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 So that you will not be conceited, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery: A partial hardening has come to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
The Liberator will come from Zion;
He will turn away godlessness from Jacob.
27 
And this will be My covenant with them
when I take away their sins.

[Jack Koons]

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Fat,

Do you agree?

Predestination means you have no free will. Furthermore, with no free will, you have no choice.

On the the other hand:

If you have a choice, that means you have free will, therefore, if you have free will; you are not predestinated.

Now only one of these can be true. And you Fat, believe it's predestination.

Did I get that right?

Jack

[Fat]

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Fat,

Do you agree?

Predestination means you have no free will. Furthermore, with no free will, you have no choice.

On the the other hand:

If you have a choice, that means you have free will, therefore, if you have free will; you are not predestinated.

Now only one of these can be true. And you Fat, believe it's predestination.

Did I get that right?

Jack

What's the matter here Jack, are your filters getting clogged?  You been taught to put everybody in a box, this is akin to putting every person in the box because of their race.

See Reply #51, Grudem says it well.  Man's problem is that on his own he makes the wrong choice. (Genesis 3)

From post 7 So what did Christ say about our ability to make the right choice?

Now you had a point to make on Grudem and Replacement theology? And you were goiung to tell us what John 6 really says.

[Jack Koons]

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Fat,

I'm going to explain what happened in the Garden of Eden, and how that applies to us today. Furthermore, I will explain (for the purpose of other viewers) why predestination actually makes God a, 'not so nice person'. On the other hand, I will show that when mankind is truly given the choice whether or not to be saved; it is no longer God condemning the souls of individuals, (as in predestination)) but individuals condemn their own souls, by rejecting Jesus Christ.

Let's begin!

Who is God? God is truly greater than words can tell, greater than the human mind can comprehend. His strength is without measure, His knowledge more than can be put into print. His wisdom greater than all the created beings combined. He lives in the eternal state, which alone is beyond comprehension. He created time, and one day will bring it to its close.

I cannot emphasize two things enough: 1) God not only knows everything (general knowledge such as science, but knows our thoughts, what we have done, what we are doing, but He also knows every choice we will make about everything; great or small. 2) God uses this knowledge (of our future decisions) to provide us with an opportunity to make the right decision in the event that we make a wrong decision.

For example, God told Jonah to go to Nineveh; Jonah chose not to obey, and went in a different direction. However, since God already knew what choice Jonah was going to make, He prepared a fish (whale) to provide Jonah with an environment that would give Jonah an opportunity to rethink his choice. Jonah now had to make a choice: 1) Repent (change his mind about going to Nineveh); or 2) Refuse to repent, and be a yummy meal for the fish. God had a purpose for Jonah; preach to Nineveh. He also used this story for a second purpose; to show all who read this story for generations to come, God will provide us with "opportunities" to fulfill His purpose, and it is always easier (on us) if we obey God sooner, rather than later. Please understand, God knowing what Jonah was going to do both times, is not to be confused with God forcing, or predestinating Jonah to make those decisions. The one (foreknowledge) is God influencing Jonah to make the right decision through a provided circumstance; while the other (predestination) is forcing BOTH of Jonah's decisions, because Jonah had no choice but to act in the fore ordained way that God directed, good or bad.

Let's look at the beginning.

God created the universe in six days, and rested on the seventh day. On Earth, He planted a Garden named Eden, the place where Adam and Eve would live.

Gen. 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

According to the above text there were two trees in the midst of the Garden; the tree of life, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Gen. 2
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen. 3
1. Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2. And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3. But of the fruit of the tree whichis in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5. For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Here is where we are:

Adam and Eve are in the Garden of Eden. They DO NOT have a sin nature. They have been presented two conflicting 'stories' of what will happen if they eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil: 1) God says, You eat it, you die. 2) Satan says, You eat it, you will not die; and, your eyes will be opened!

One of them is telling the truth, and one of them is lying. It's just that simple. Adam must choose. Eve must choose.

Do I obey God, or do I not obey God; that was not only the question that Adam and Eve faced, it is the one we must face. God has given us His Word, the Bible. Within its pages we find the history of Earth, along with the Commandments of God. We also find the consequences of both obedience, and disobedience of His Commandments.

Like Adam, we are presented with God's side of the story, (found in His Word, the Bible); and Satan's side of the story, found in the "sin nature" (the knowledge of good and evil) we inherited from Adam's "wrong" decision. Adam was created innocent, as we are (although we are born with the "nature" to sin. Adam was innocent until he chose to disobey God. We as children grow up learning through our conscience "good and evil". (We know [even as a child] that it's wrong to steal cookies from the cookie jar, and then lie about it.)  As Adam condemned himself when he chose not to obey the Commandant of God, we likewise condemn ourselves when we choose not to obey the Commandments of God written on our hearts (the knowledge of good and evil) that speak to us through our conscience.

Even Wayne Grudem, (a Calvinist) who is a Theologian and Professor of Biblical Studies at Phoenix Seminary states in his "Systematic Theology" under the heading of "The Covenant of Works" (which in its entirety, is too long to post) , "God sovereignly imposes this covenant on Adam and Eve, and they have no opportunity to change the details—their only choice is to keep it or to break it."

The problem of course with Calvinism however is their definition of "choice". You see, at another place, under the heading of "objections to the doctrine of election", paragraph 1. Titled: Election means that we do not have a choice in whether we accept Christ or not.

"According to this objection the doctrine of election denies all the gospel invitations that appeal to the will of man and asked people to make a choice in whether to respond to Christ invitation or not. In response to this, we must affirm that the doctrine of election is fully able to accommodate the idea that we have a voluntary choice and we make willingly decisions and accepting or rejecting Christ. Our choices are voluntary because they are what we want to do and what we decide to do. This does not mean that our choices are absolutely free because, God can work sovereignly through our desires so that he guarantees it our choice come about as he has ordained, but this can still be understood as a real choice because God has created us and he ordains that such a choice is real. In short, we can say that God causes us to choose Christ voluntarily."

I'm sorry Fat, either the choice is "absolutely free", or it's absolutely "not free", you can't have your cake, and eat it too"!

John 6: 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up the last day.

John 12:
30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31 Now is the judgement of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

John 3
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Numbers 21
8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Notice that Jesus compared the "lifting up" of the brazen serpent with Himself being "lifted up". Just as "any man" lived physically when he beheld the serpent; "whosoever" believeth on Jesus as Saviour when He was "lifted up", "should not perish, but have eternal life".

It doesn't sound like Jesus was talking about the "elect", it sounded like He said, "whosoever"!

Adam had a choice in the Garden of Eden;
The people had a choice in the wilderness; and,
We have a choice today!

2 Peter 3: 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Choose Jesus today!

Jack

[Jack Koons]

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" This does not mean that our choices are absolutely free because, God can work sovereignly through our desires so that he guarantees it our choice come about as he has ordained, but this can still be understood as a real choice because God has created us and he ordains that such a choice is real. In short, we can say that God causes us to choose Christ voluntarily."

I forgot to mention, since Adam (in the Garden of Eden) really had no choice, (according to the above quote) and God "guaranteed" Adam's choice was what He "ordained"; it is not Adam's choice that condemned mankind, it was God's choice, because He "caused" Adam to make the choice he made.

That is what Predestination really is.

Jack

[Fat]

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" This does not mean that our choices are absolutely free because, God can work sovereignly through our desires so that he guarantees it our choice come about as he has ordained, but this can still be understood as a real choice because God has created us and he ordains that such a choice is real. In short, we can say that God causes us to choose Christ voluntarily."

I forgot to mention, since Adam (in the Garden of Eden) really had no choice, (according to the above quote) and God "guaranteed" Adam's choice was what He "ordained"; it is not Adam's choice that condemned mankind, it was God's choice, because He "caused" Adam to make the choice he made.

That is what Predestination really is.

Jack

What choice did Jonah eventually make?

The choice to sin is that of man's.
The choice of salvation is God's.

Do you know what Hyper-Calvinism is? It is a cult that teaches fatalism.
If you're not aware of this cult you should check with your professor and ask him to explain the difference between mainstream Calvinism, and the cult referred to as hyper Calvinist. If he cannot explain the difference between the two then you have been cheated in your education. There are very few Hyper-Calvinism churches in America, they are not a biblical church.

[Fat]

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Jack,
You had a point to make on Grudem and Replacement theology? And you were goiung to tell us what John 6 really says.

[Jack Koons]

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Fat,

Are you literate?

Please post where I said something about "replacement theology".

You make up things I haven't said, while ignoring what I did say.

Jack