What about those who have never heard the gospel?

[Jack Koons]

• 

For those of us that live in the "civilized" or "industrialized" world, not much thought needs to be spent on how we both hear the gospel, and receive His salvation; but, what about those millions of souls that live their entire lives, never having heard the gospel; has God ever, does God now, or will God ever have a plan for those people; other than to be born, live, die, and finally spend all of eternity in torment?

Jack

[calluna]

• 

For those of us that live in the "civilized" or "industrialized" world, not much thought needs to be spent on how we both hear the gospel, and receive His salvation; but, what about those millions of souls that live their entire lives, never having heard the gospel; has God ever, does God now, or will God ever have a plan for those people; other than to be born, live, die, and finally spend all of eternity in torment?

Every knee shall bow; some willingly, but most reluctantly. It is attitude to knee action that is the ultimate decider of eternal fate, irrespective of whether one has previously heard the gospel, or not. Every has the same choice to make, sooner or later.

[Zant Law]

• 

For those of us that live in the "civilized" or "industrialized" world, not much thought needs to be spent on how we both hear the gospel, and receive His salvation; but, what about those millions of souls that live their entire lives, never having heard the gospel; has God ever, does God now, or will God ever have a plan for those people; other than to be born, live, die, and finally spend all of eternity in torment?

Jack

Who on earth has not sinned and deserves to spend eternity with God?

Can a Just God not punish the unjust sinner?

Does your God ever break a promise?

John 14:6 NAS
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life ; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Is there going to be a second chance for those that have not heard the gospel? I have no idea what God's plan is other then what he has written down for me to study.

Matthew 7:14 NAS
"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

[Jack Koons]

• 

Every knee shall bow; some willingly, but most reluctantly. It is attitude to knee action that is the ultimate decider of eternal fate, irrespective of whether one has previously heard the gospel, or not. Every has the same choice to make, sooner or later.

"Every knee shall bow; some willingly, but most reluctantly. It is attitude to knee action that is the ultimate decider of eternal fate, irrespective of whether one has previously heard the gospel, or not. Every has the same choice to make, sooner or later."

1) "Every knee shall bow; some willingly, but most reluctantly."

I absolutely agree. Those that do so willingly, will do so both now, and at the Judgement Seat of Christ; whole those who do not will bow at the Great White Throne Judgement. Furthermore, I agree that judgement will be made irrespective of whether one has heard the gospel or not. However, believers have clearly been given a command:

Matt. 28:
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

This command by Jesus Christ clearly puts the responsibility of spreading the gospel to "all nations".

Furthermore:

Rom. 10
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

It is quite clear that while it is the responsibility of the "sinner" to "obey the gospel"; it is also quite clear that it is of a necessity that one must obey the commandment of being sent to preach the gospel, in order for the gospel to be first heard, and eventually obeyed.

What responsibility lies upon the preacher that disobeys the command to go and preach, resulting in the gospel not being preached (meaning the gospel is not therefore heard, and ultimately not obeyed)?

Jack

[calluna]

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It is quite clear that while it is the responsibility of the "sinner" to "obey the gospel"; it is also quite clear that it is of a necessity that one must obey the commandment of being sent to preach the gospel, in order for the gospel to be first heard, and eventually obeyed.

What responsibility lies upon the preacher that disobeys the command to go and preach, resulting in the gospel not being preached (meaning the gospel is not therefore heard, and ultimately not obeyed)?

Good question. The preacher or evangelist who, like Jonah, disobeys his conscience must be responsible for the evils that result from absence of the gospel, and absence of the resulting good works that are intended to be like a city on a hill, that cannot be hidden. That's quite a responsibility.

[Hal]

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What responsibility lies upon the preacher that disobeys the command to go and preach, resulting in the gospel not being preached (meaning the gospel is not therefore heard, and ultimately not obeyed)?

If you do not preach are you really a preacher? Would it be better to use the word disciple? Isn't the great commission in given to all of Christ disciples?
Hal

[Jack Koons]

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If you do not preach are you really a preacher? Would it be better to use the word disciple? Isn't the great commission in given to all of Christ disciples?
Hal

Hello Hal,

Actually I was trying to stay 'contextually' correct.

Romans 10: 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Jack

[Jack Koons]

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Quote from: Jack Koons on Today at 09:00:41 AM
For those of us that live in the "civilized" or "industrialized" world, not much thought needs to be spent on how we both hear the gospel, and receive His salvation; but, what about those millions of souls that live their entire lives, never having heard the gospel; has God ever, does God now, or will God ever have a plan for those people; other than to be born, live, die, and finally spend all of eternity in torment?

Jack

Zant Law stated:

"Who on earth has not sinned and deserves to spend eternity with God?

Can a Just God not punish the unjust sinner?

Does your God ever break a promise?"

John 14:6 NAS
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life ; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

"Is there going to be a second chance for those that have not heard the gospel? I have no idea what God's plan is other then what he has written down for me to study."

Matthew 7:14 NAS
"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Zant,

"Who on earth has not sinned and deserves to spend eternity with God?"

The obvious answer is, no one.

"Can a Just God not punish the unjust sinner?"

The obvious answer is, yes.

"Does your God ever break a promise?"

The obvious answer is, no.

"Is there going to be a second chance for those that have not heard the gospel?"

I believe the Bible clearly teaches, there is no "second chance".

"I have no idea what God's plan is other then what he has written down for me to study."

Zant, thank you for your honesty in stating that you, "have no idea what God's plan is other then what he has written down for me to study".  The truth of the matter Zant, is that it's not the people that haven't heard that are at question; but rather, what is the 1) responsibility of the Christian that does not obey the command of God to A) preach the gospel at all; or B) preaches a false gospel; such as 1. Partaking of the Eucharist; 2. Baptismal Regeneration; or 3. Speaking in tongues, in order to be saved; resulting in the sinner either not hearing the gospel at all, or hearing a false gospel (which is even more dangerous to the sinner [causing the sinner to have a false hope]), in either case leaving the sinner without the gospel witness the Christian was commanded to give; and 2) what is the consequence to the Christian for his or her disobedience to God's command?

God has clearly given a command to all Christians, (with the purpose in mind of the getting out of the gospel), and quite clearly there is disobedience to this command; resulting in the rather problematic situation of the gospel not being preached.

Jack

[Zant Law]

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"Who on earth has not sinned and deserves to spend eternity with God?"

The obvious answer is, no one.

Agreed.

"Can a Just God not punish the unjust sinner?"

The obvious answer is, yes.

Scripture please.

"Does your God ever break a promise?"

The obvious answer is, no.

Agreed

"Is there going to be a second chance for those that have not heard the gospel?"

I believe the Bible clearly teaches, there is no "second chance".

According to Christ words salvation must come through him. I don't see a second chance being taught in the Scriptures, however I cannot see that the gospel will be denied to all in the future.

Zant, thank you for your honesty in stating that you, "have no idea what God's plan is other then what he has written down for me to study".  The truth of the matter Zant, is that it's not the people that haven't heard that are at question; but rather, what is the 1) responsibility of the Christian that does not obey the command of God to A) preach the gospel at all; or B) preaches a false gospel; such as 1. Partaking of the Eucharist; 2. Baptismal Regeneration; or 3. Speaking in tongues, in order to be saved; resulting in the sinner either not hearing the gospel at all, or hearing a false gospel (which is even more dangerous to the sinner [causing the sinner to have a false hope]), in either case leaving the sinner without the gospel witness the Christian was commanded to give; and 2) what is the consequence to the Christian for his or her disobedience to God's command?

God has clearly given a command to all Christians, (with the purpose in mind of the getting out of the gospel), and quite clearly there is disobedience to this command; resulting in the rather problematic situation of the gospel not being preached.

Question, are the people you're speaking of here, that call themselves Christians, are they really Christians?

John 14:15 NAS
"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Matthew 7:20 NAS
18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits. 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles ?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

[Jack Koons]

• 

Zant,

As per your question:

"Can a Just God not punish the unjust sinner?"

My meaning of "yes", was indicating that God CAN punish the unjust sinner; I certainly hope we agree.

As per:

"Question, are the people you're speaking of here, that call themselves Christians, are they really Christians?"

John 14:15 NAS
"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments."

Consider the following:

1 John 3:
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.


Here sin is defined as the transgression of the law. Of course we know that the law is a collection of God's commandments. With this is mind please consider:

1 John 1:
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.


Even the Apostle Paul by inspiration of God penned:

1 Tim 1:
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Please notice the last three words above: "I am chief". That is 'present' tense, not 'past' tense, as in, "I was chief".

So when Jesus said,

John 14:15 NAS
"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." This cannot be "absolute", but rather, something we seek with our heart.

Also keep in mind:

James 2:
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in onepoint, he is guilty of all.

So Zant, unless you're a Nazarene that has reached "entire sanctification" (sinless perfection), you're just a Hell deserving sinner, saved by grace like the rest of us.

Jack

[Zant Law]

• 

For those of us that live in the "civilized" or "industrialized" world, not much thought needs to be spent on how we both hear the gospel, and receive His salvation; but, what about those millions of souls that live their entire lives, never having heard the gospel; has God ever, does God now, or will God ever have a plan for those people; other than to be born, live, die, and finally spend all of eternity in torment?

Jack

So what about those people, Jack?

So Zant, unless you're a Nazarene that has reached "entire sanctification" (sinless perfection), you're just a Hell deserving sinner, saved by grace like the rest of us.

Jack

Does God have a plan for 'those people'? It's called Hell, which you say they deserve.

[Jack Koons]

• 

Quote from: Jack's OP
For those of us that live in the "civilized" or "industrialized" world, not much thought needs to be spent on how we both hear the gospel, and receive His salvation; but, what about those millions of souls that live their entire lives, never having heard the gospel; has God ever, does God now, or will God ever have a plan for those people; other than to be born, live, die, and finally spend all of eternity in torment?

Jack

So what about those people, Jack?

Quote from: Answer
So Zant, unless you're a Nazarene that has reached "entire sanctification" (sinless perfection), you're just a Hell deserving sinner, saved by grace like the rest of us.

Jack
Zant, you said,

"Does God have a plan for 'those people'? It's called Hell, which you say they deserve."

You just put yourself in a separate category from 'those people' which deserve Hell, with the use of the word "those". The question is do you now 'deserve' Heaven because of the righteousness of Christ?

Jack

[Zant Law]

• 

Quote from: Jack's OP
For those of us that live in the "civilized" or "industrialized" world, not much thought needs to be spent on how we both hear the gospel, and receive His salvation; but, what about those millions of souls that live their entire lives, never having heard the gospel; has God ever, does God now, or will God ever have a plan for those people; other than to be born, live, die, and finally spend all of eternity in torment?

Jack

So what about those people, Jack?

Quote from: Answer
So Zant, unless you're a Nazarene that has reached "entire sanctification" (sinless perfection), you're just a Hell deserving sinner, saved by grace like the rest of us.

Jack
Zant, you said,

"Does God have a plan for 'those people'? It's called Hell, which you say they deserve."

You just put yourself in a separate category from 'those people' which deserve Hell, with the use of the word "those". The question is do you now 'deserve' Heaven because of the righteousness of Christ?

Jack

Jack you already answered that question.     

So Zant, unless you're a Nazarene that has reached "entire sanctification" (sinless perfection), you're just a Hell deserving sinner, saved by grace like the rest of us.

Do you understand Grace Jack? Are you just using words because you heard them in class?

[Jack Koons]

• 

Yes, I answered it; but you have failed to confess it.

Jack

[Zant Law]

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Yes, I answered it; but you have failed to confess it.

Jack

Oh Jack, it is wise to make a statement like that.
ZLaw