Bible Talk > Bible Study
Divine Inspiration
Fat:
I think you are playing games with me now my friend , but if you mean it may be this will help you out.
For the same reason that Christ sent for the colt in Matt 21.
Matthew 21:2 Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied , and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me. 3 And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say , The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them. 4 All this was done , that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying , 5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold , thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.
Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout , O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation ; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
I think that of all the discussions with arminians that I have had over the years, you are the first one who denies that Holy Spirit is require to draw a man to Christ. The only debate has been as to what the word 'draw' meant as to 'free will'.
But hey Calluna, you call it the way you see it and may be when we are standing in front of our Lord we'll find out you are right.
calluna:
--- Quote from: Fat on August 28, 2011, 05:37:31 pm ---For the same reason that Christ sent for the colt in Matt 21.
--- End quote ---
Does it not seem difficult to accept that, over three years, Jesus spoke to thousands, performed miracles, healed the sick and warned of the teaching of Pharisees, just in order to show that the people for whom he did all these things were entirely reprobate? That he did all these things for just eleven men? We are told that Jesus was amazed by the faith of a centurion, that a woman loved him so much as to pour precious perfume on his feet, that the faith of those who came for healing had saved them. We read that he loved faithful Lazarus, Martha and Mary, that in Nazareth he performed few miracles because of lack of faith- which means that, elsewhere, there was faith. We read that the gospel was to go out of Israel to all people, everywhere, because God commands all people, everywhere, to repent and turn to him.
So when Jesus referred to hard hearts and deaf ears, quoting Isaiah, he must have been referring to a majority, not to the whole. That explanation was sufficient for the disciples, to explain why they were given the plain truth, because they had been chosen for their faith. Parables were needed to sort the wheat from the chaff- even those who refused Jesus could understand them, but they were not blatantly confronted with the truth by parables. The wheat, the elect, like the true Israelite Nathanael, like loyal Joseph of Arimathea, were given the plain truth, after they had responded favourably to parables and miracles. This is because God grants grace to those who welcome the gospel, and hardens those who react adversely to it.
Fat:
--- Quote from: calluna on August 29, 2011, 02:55:02 am ---Does it not seem difficult to accept that, over three years, Jesus spoke to thousands, performed miracles, healed the sick and warned of the teaching of Pharisees, just in order to show that the people for whom he did all these things were entirely reprobate? That he did all these things for just eleven men? We are told that Jesus was amazed by the faith of a centurion, that a woman loved him so much as to pour precious perfume on his feet, that the faith of those who came for healing had saved them. We read that he loved faithful Lazarus, Martha and Mary, that in Nazareth he performed few miracles because of lack of faith- which means that, elsewhere, there was faith. We read that the gospel was to go out of Israel to all people, everywhere, because God commands all people, everywhere, to repent and turn to him.
So when Jesus referred to hard hearts and deaf ears, quoting Isaiah, he must have been referring to a majority, not to the whole. That explanation was sufficient for the disciples, to explain why they were given the plain truth, because they had been chosen for their faith. Parables were needed to sort the wheat from the chaff- even those who refused Jesus could understand them, but they were not blatantly confronted with the truth by parables. The wheat, the elect, like the true Israelite Nathanael, like loyal Joseph of Arimathea, were given the plain truth, after they had responded favourably to parables and miracles. This is because God grants grace to those who welcome the gospel, and hardens those who react adversely to it.
--- End quote ---
First I never said anything about only eleven men. This is something that you yourself must have drawn from your reading of the Scripture.
Christ came to speak to all His sheep and they know His voice.
Here is another verse to go along with Matthew 13 and John 6:
When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; others, Elijah; still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets." "But you," He asked them, "who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God!" And Jesus responded, "Simon son of Jonah, you are blessed because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father in heaven.
Now Peter had been with Christ from the get-go, and we know that others knew that Jesus was the Christ, so you can conclude that all those others who had come to the same conclusion as Peter were also led and taught by the Father.
--- Quote ---Parables were needed to sort the wheat from the chaff- even those who refused Jesus could understand them, but they were not blatantly confronted with the truth by parables.
--- End quote ---
But that is not what Christ said and it is not what was prophesied.
Your argument is with the Scriptures not with me Calluna. You say the verses the limited the receivers of the knowledge to the eleven and then you say it can't be true.
There is no question that Christ was adamant that the knowledge of His truth had to taught by the Father not by man. Many have heard the gospel but few have been taught by God.
calluna:
--- Quote from: Fat on August 29, 2011, 09:38:28 am ---First I never said anything about only eleven men.
--- End quote ---
How many disciples was Jesus talking to? Twelve, including Judas? If he was talking to additional disciples who had not been selected by him, then their presence shows that the interpretation of Isaiah that excludes all but those specially selected is incorrect.
--- Quote ---Now Peter had been with Christ from the get-go, and we know that others knew that Jesus was the Christ, so you can conclude that all those others who had come to the same conclusion as Peter were also led and taught by the Father.
--- End quote ---
Of course. Anyone can be given that revelation. Indeed, many are given it, and oppose Christ.
--- Quote ---There is no question that Christ was adamant that the knowledge of His truth had to taught by the Father not by man.
--- End quote ---
True- because it's not the issue.
--- Quote ---Many have heard the gospel but few have been taught by God.
--- End quote ---
Bible reference?
Fat:
--- Quote from: calluna on August 29, 2011, 10:08:54 am ---How many disciples was Jesus talking to? Twelve, including Judas? If he was talking to additional disciples who had not been selected by him, then their presence shows that the interpretation of Isaiah that excludes all but those specially selected is incorrect.
--- End quote ---
How many of His sheep were in the audience He just addresses?
--- Quote ---Of course. Anyone can be given that revelation. Indeed, many are given it, and oppose Christ.
--- End quote ---
Again Christ said: Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
--- Quote ---True- because it's not the issue.
--- End quote ---
It is most certainly the issue.
--- Quote ---Bible reference?
--- End quote ---
The above scriptures.
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