Salvation, works, sacraments, inheritance, adoption

[admin]

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First of all I would like to start off with the premise that God is the same as He was in the beginning and He shall be the same forever. And my reasoning for this is simple, God is perfect and you cannot change perfect and still be perfect. So if God was perfect in the beginning it would not make sense that He would change. And the reason I'm starting off with this is that I like to stay within the Scriptures for this discussion. I don't fill the adding on extra writings from recent prophets could possibly change the perfection that is given to us by the Scriptures. God's plan for salvation was laid out to us before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4 KJV
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love

1 Peter 1:20 KJV
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

One other thing I like to point out about using the Scriptures is that all told us that they are inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, for training in righteousness. So to avoid the arguments that would naturally occur if we were to bring in this discussion writings of recent prophets that in any way contradict the 66 books of Bible. This would also avoid any arguments about the prophets meeting the requirements set forth in the book of Deuteronomy.

The topic that I would like to discuss is the salvation that has been offered to us by the shedding of blood by Jesus Christ on the cross. We that call ourselves Christians unanimously make the claim that Jesus Christ died on the cross so that our sins may be forgiven. That wording may vary from denomination to denomination but it basically means the same thing. Now here comes the problem what exactly happened on the cross? What does it mean to say that we were ransomed by the blood of Christ? The Bible uses that term 'ransomed' a number of times to describe what happened across. So what does it mean to be ransomed?

Mark 10:45
""For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.""

1 Timothy 2:6
"who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time."

2000 years ago when the Old Testament was written the Jews called their indentured servants slaves. When a slave was to be ransomed it meant that another person would pay his debt to his owner. Or it could mean that the slave himself would pay off the debt and become a free man. If the debt was paid by a third party in the slave would know that debt to the third-party. It would be like one bank selling the note held on your home to another bank. But if the slave paid off the ransom himself he would own the home free and clear.

      

Romans 1:1 CSB
[God's Good News for Rome] Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle and singled out for God's good news-


      Romans 7:25 CSB
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I myself am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh, to the law of sin. 


      1 Corinthians 7:22 CSB
For he who is called by the Lord as a slave is the Lord's freedman. Likewise he who is called as a free man is Christ's slave.


Does the Bible explains to us Christ paid our ransom, and as Paul explains a number of times we have become Christ's slave, or indentured servant.

From this gospel some denominations have determined that there is more involved to our salvation then the shedding of the blood of our Lord. They have added onto the cross righteous works, religious ceremonies and sacraments. What they actually are teaching us is that when Christ paid our ransom we were not actually forgiven for our sins. They are teaching us that our sins were merely put on hold until we completed necessary requirements to earn our own salvation.

Psalm 49:7
"No man can by any means redeem his brother Or give to God a ransom for him--"

So here are a couple of questions for the discussion.

Where does works and sacraments come into salvation?

If man has the ability to do something that would ransom himself for his sins why did Christ have to die on the cross?

If Christ paid our ransom who did He pay it to?

Why is not the law as taught in the Old Testament, sufficient for us to earn our own salvation?

Are we being told that we must ransom ourselves from Christ to earn our freedom from sin?

Another thing the Bible speaks of our adoption and our inheritance. At what point are we adopted by Christ as part of his family and eligible for an inheritance?

Ephesians 1:5 CSB
 He predestined us to be adopted through Jesus Christ for Himself, according to His favor and will,

Colossians 3:24 CSB
knowing that you will receive the reward of an inheritance from the Lord-you serve the Lord Christ.

[Forest]

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Question 1 - We can be saved (delivered) by our works of righteousness while we live here on earth, but our works will not play a part in our eternal salvation.  Question 2 - If the natural man could have redeemed himself, then Christ would not have had to die on the cross.  Question 3 - Christ did pay our ransom, and his sacrifice was offered to God, for God's acceptance.  His sacrifice was not offered to man for man's acceptance, as many of God's children think.  Question 4 - Rom 3:20, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.  Question 5 - Most of the world of God's children will tell us that we have to do somesort of works of righteousness to be saved eternally, but that's just not so.  Some will say that we have to accept Jesus's work on the cross, but his work on the cross was not offered to man, but to God for God's acceptance.  Payment for the adoption of those that God gave his Son was paid by Jesus while on the cross.  The last part of an adoption is when you bring the child home, so when Christ returns to gather his elect from the four winds of the earth and takes us home will be the final act of the adoption.  We are eligible for the inheritance when Jesus died on the cross, because he made us, in God's eyes, Holy and without blame.   

[admin]

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Hi Forest,

I agree with most of what you say, but I have a problem with the first question:

We can be saved (delivered) by our works of righteousness while we live here on earth, but our works will not play a part in our eternal salvation.

Romans 3:10 NAS
as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE ;

If we are not righteous until we are made so by God how can an unrighteous man do a righteous work? As James teaches us, good works (righteous works) are the result of our salvation by Faith.

Paul says, 1 corinthians 1:30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 31 so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

If our righteousness comes from God then are we saved before we can do a righteous work?

[philer]

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Interesting topic and touches on more than one issue. Sin entered by one man ,romans 5:15 But, not as the offence so also is the free gift; for if by the offence of the one the many did die, much more did the grace of God, and the free gift in grace of the one man Jesus Christ, abound to the many;.  heb 10:4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins, . " heb 10:12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, 13waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. 14For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. " so with this in mind we could say that sheeps and goats were the RANSOM for sin though they could not take away sin . Because where there is an offence there is a penalty and that must be paid, and GOD decided that a perfect sacrfice for all time would suffice in that he could not really die in the spirit ,and the penalty was for a sin in the physical world ,and a physical death would pay the price for all time .

now as far as works is concerned and time and time again it seems that people are concerned with this issue. we were dead in our sins and the law exposed our sin to us. God did not ask for the blood of sheep and goats but obedience . now with that in mind why then if a man offered a sacrfice ,if he sinned again did he have to do it again? because he disobeyed again. he sinned.  so we see works of obedience and disobedience , but we know that the blood of sheeps and goats did not take away sin. so no amount of works saved or condemned yourself sin was part of mans nature and righteousness was not. romans 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." so we see it is not of any work itself but of the LORD who will not impute sin.  romans 9:16 so then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. "  we run the race as one apostle put it in hope to obtain that which we hope for otherwise why do we yet run?  but not as though running will obtain it,but hope that we will because disobedience will not obtain it, but obedience may ,but is it certain?  no man knows as one apostle put it "dont say who goes up or down", we cannot possibly know because in the end salvation is the gift of GOD, and who can know who he will give it to.  so just as you did nothing of yourself to be a sinner you did nothing to obtain salvation, thus taking away any boasting . i dont know if ive addressed your questions correctly ,but i tried.

[admin]

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Hello Philer

I believe what James tells us about works is that our works show our love for Christ. But the Bible also tells us there are other reasons for works. One is selfishness but it is legitimate, that is storing our treasures in heaven so that we may receive them as crowns of glory.
Some say there is one other reason which is sometime used too but I really believe this reason goes back to the first reason the love of Christ, and that is obedience to Christ's commandments and teaching. So we are doing works because of our love of Christ and we do our works in obedience to please him.
The truth of the matter is though, the other reason of selfishness for future glory is taught in the Scriptures. I just wonder if the first reason may please God over the second reason.

[Theodore A. Jones]

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Hello Philer

I believe what James tells us about works is that our works show our love for Christ. But the Bible also tells us there are other reasons for works. One is selfishness but it is legitimate, that is storing our treasures in heaven so that we may receive them as crowns of glory.
Some say there is one other reason which is sometime used too but I really believe this reason goes back to the first reason the love of Christ, and that is obedience to Christ's commandments and teaching. So we are doing works because of our love of Christ and we do our works in obedience to please him.
The truth of the matter is though, the other reason of selfishness for future glory is taught in the Scriptures. I just wonder if the first reason may please God over the second reason.

"Forgiveness cannot be effected, nor righteousness declared, until guilt is established" 09/27/2012 admin.
Guilt of which sin?

[admin]

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"Forgiveness cannot be effected, nor righteousness declared, until guilt is established" 09/27/2012 admin.
Guilt of which sin?

Your sin Theodore.

On the internet the repeating the same post on multiple threads, or refusal to engage in a debate but only disrupt it is considered spam.

This whole board is addressing Your sin Theodore.

I would suggest you start your own thread and talk about your sin.

Admin Dude

[macuser]

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Me think the Dude is POed.

   About time 

[Theodore A. Jones]

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Your sin Theodore.

On the internet the repeating the same post on multiple threads, or refusal to engage in a debate but only disrupt it is considered spam.

This whole board is addressing Your sin Theodore.

I would suggest you start your own thread and talk about your sin.

Admin Dude

Did you misunderstand that I asked you the question "Guilt of which sin?" in regard to your stated fully public statement, but isn't it commanded "Give to the one who asks you" a command you refuse to obey, and you judge me to have sinned? Now just which of His commands have I disobeyed?  For doesn't he illustrate to continue to knocking on the door until the upstart opens it? Now DUDE answer the question WHICH SIN!
 

[admin]

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Did you misunderstand that I asked you the question "Guilt of which sin?" in regard to your stated fully public statement, but isn't it commanded "Give to the one who asks you" a command you refuse to obey, and you judge me to have sinned? Now just which of His commands have I disobeyed?  For doesn't he illustrate to continue to knocking on the door until the upstart opens it? Now DUDE answer the question WHICH SIN!
 

I repeat Your Sin Theodore.

Sorry you didn't heed the warning. Good by and I pray you find your way.

[JB Horn]

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I repeat Your Sin Theodore.

Sorry you didn't heed the warning. Good by and I pray you find your way.

I'm not really sure he had anything to say. There are a lot of one verse cults today, it makes 2 Timothy 3 and 4 so relevant.