The Bible is quite easy to understand, as long as context is taken into account

[PrinceOfDorkness]

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I think Christians believe the Bible -- especially the Tanach -- is hard to understand. Rather, if we look at the cultural and historical contexts of the writings, they are generally quite transparent, particularly if we pay attention to sources, authors and different theologies present in the passages.

[Bob]

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You made it over here fast 
Welcome I'm going to be a little impolite I'm afraid, I'm going to get ready for dinner and will be gone most evening. But I will be back to discuss this topic, it appropriate and it looks interesting.

[PrinceOfDorkness]

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Not impolite at all, Enjoy your dinner, I look forward to your reply. Have a good night.

[Bob]

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I think Christians believe the Bible -- especially the Tanach -- is hard to understand. Rather, if we look at the cultural and historical contexts of the writings, they are generally quite transparent, particularly if we pay attention to sources, authors and different theologies present in the passages.

Sorry for the delay and I thank you for your patience.

You made a comment on the other board about the number of denomination in the Christian religion. I would correct you that not all these denominations are  Christian even know they may call themselves that. Many of these denominations are separated because of one or two minor disagreements in doctrine or theology but nothing critical.

I tell you little bit who I am and where I'm coming from so you won't have to muddle through the different Christian teachings that are out there. I do not read Hebrews or the Greek and I leave the translations of the old and the New Testament to those who do. I am a Calvinist this is not to say that I do not believe that Arminians are not members of the body of Christ, I just have a different belief in how we came to that point than they do.   I also believe that a lot of people out there that call themselves Christians are not Christians. Salvation does not come through sacraments, or by belonging to a specific church. Charles Spurgeon, probably one of the greatest Calvinist preachers, said that he doubted that more than 10% of his congregation were Christians. Christ preached repentance which requires not only the asking for forgiveness but in redirecting your life to glorify God.

I do not believe in replacement theology, it is totally un-biblical and it is calling God untrustworthy. It came about because a weak Christian church ccould not explain why Israel had not come back together as a nation for almost 2000 years. They were proven wrong in 1948 but they still exist today in large numbers.

 If I was going to identify someone as a Christian I would first ask if he believed in the deity of Christ, this would leave out both Jehovah's Witnesses and latter-day Saints. Both will say that they believe that Christ was a god but he was not part of a Trinity or a Godhead saying only that he was a god or Michael the Archangel. I do not believe that a person can receive his salvation from the works of another man including the administering of sacraments or being given absolution for their sins from another human being.I do not believe that a person can work his way to heaven by what is referred to in the Bible as good works. In fact the Bible tells us exactly the opposite, and I find it very prideful to assume that one could accomplish this on his own.

Now back to your post. I agree with you that many Christians make the Bible out to be much harder than what it is. The fact that they can't accept that their eternal salvation is being handed to them as an active grace, a free gift, from their creator seems to them to be too easy and therefore unbelievable. There are parts of the Bible, both new and Old Testaments, that will remain mysteries to us until the appropriate time of God's choosing. But for the most part what God expects from us is simple and uncomplicated.

Now if you would, I like to know what you believe concerning the accuracy of the Scriptures, both old and new.

[Fat]

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I think Christians believe the Bible -- especially the Tanach -- is hard to understand. Rather, if we look at the cultural and historical contexts of the writings, they are generally quite transparent, particularly if we pay attention to sources, authors and different theologies present in the passages.

Merry Christmas to all.

Concerning the Gospel being brought forth to the Gentiles by the apostle Paul (Saul of Tarsus a Pharisee), do you believe he was chosen because of his unique position within the hierarchy of the Jewish leadership? After all didn't the Pharisees claim Mosaic authority over their interpretation of the Jewish law?

P.S. to Admindude: this Christmas theme is slowing down this website something terrible.

[PrinceOfDorkness]

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Thanks for the invite, Bob.

I am a nullafidian, that is, a person without beliefs, religious or ideological. I suppose I could be called an atheist, but I think such a label carries such preconceived notions and isn't technically accurate in my opinion.

 I imagine you think we're all nasty, hateful people, but I strive to be polite and respectful, if a bit ornery at times. I say that at the outset because I wish this to be a polite, respectful, honest conversation.

My view of the scriptures is that they are wonderful, but very human. The Bible was written, edited, redacted, copied, translated and compiled by humans. It doesn't even the claim the whole of it is divinely inspired, as 2 Timothy 3:16 refers to the scriptures which Timothy learned in his infancy. This would be the Tanach, not the NT.

But even if Paul claimed that somehow for both OT and NT, I don't see a good reason to believe it.

I picked the topic because I think far too often Christians talk about putting the scriptures into context, and then do just the opposite. If we wish to understand them, we have to understand the context -- historical, cultural, literary and so forth. Truthfully, it's not just Christians today that do this, but they (and Jews) have always done it. For example, Matthew 2:15 references Hosea 11:1 in respect to the family of Jesus fleeing to Egypt to escape Herod's slaughter of the innocents.

But Hosea 11:1 isn't a Messianic prophecy. It clearly references instead Exodus, and even names Israel as Yahweh's "son", and talks about how he turned to worship of the Baals, and how he taught Ephraim to walk. The Gospel of Matthew plays somewhat "fast and loose" with the scriptures. But don't take that to mean I don't like the gospel - - I think the author tends to find in the scriptures what he wants to find.

I also think Christians far too often gloss over important details. Like why does Jacob erect a stone in Genesis 28 and anoint it with oil? Because this was a common Canaanite practice, the stone is called a "massebah" and was used to signify the presence of a deity in Canaanite folk religion. Same goes for why Samuel and Saul worship at a high place (1 Samuel 9:25), or why the Israelites slaughtered their neighbors in the Herem Joshua 6:21; 1 Samuel 15:3)

Outside of the cultural context of ancient Judaism being essentially a Canaanite folk religion, such things make little sense. But once this is understood, their practices and ideas make much more sense.

Anyway, let me know what you think. Have a nice day and a Merry Christmas.

[PrinceOfDorkness]

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Merry Christmas to all.

Concerning the Gospel being brought forth to the Gentiles by the apostle Paul (Saul of Tarsus a Pharisee), do you believe he was chosen because of his unique position within the hierarchy of the Jewish leadership? After all didn't the Pharisees claim Mosaic authority over their interpretation of the Jewish law?

P.S. to Admindude: this Christmas theme is slowing down this website something terrible.

I don't want to mislead you. I am not a Christian. I ran into Bob on another site, and he invited me to come discuss here.

As for why Paul felt he was called? I don't know. I am guessing he had some sort of experience he interpreted as being from God. Paul himself never talks about his conversion in any detail. As to what actually happened on the road to Damascus is beyond my ability to guess aside from above.

[Fat]

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I don't want to mislead you. I am not a Christian. I ran into Bob on another site, and he invited me to come discuss here.

As for why Paul felt he was called? I don't know. I am guessing he had some sort of experience he interpreted as being from God. Paul himself never talks about his conversion in any detail. As to what actually happened on the road to Damascus is beyond my ability to guess aside from above.

If you're interested you can read Paul’s conversation in Acts 9.

Acts was written by Luke, Luke was Paul’s close friend, traveling companion, and personal physician ( Col 4:14 ), and he was a careful researcher ( Lk 1:1–4 )
I feel that it is safe to assume this story was related to Luke by Paul himself.

Paul discribes why he was called in his letter Galatians 1:11-16.

11 Now I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel preached by me is not based on a human point of view. 12 For I did not receive it from a human source and I was not taught it, but it came by a revelation from Jesus Christ. 13 For you have heard about my former way of life in Judaism: I persecuted God's church to an extreme degree and tried to destroy it; 14 and I advanced in Judaism beyond many contemporaries among my people, because I was extremely zealous for the traditions of my ancestors. 15 But when God, who from my mother's womb set me apart and called me by His grace, was pleased 16 to reveal His Son in me, so that I could preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone. (HCSB)

Well I think I'll just stand on the sidelines and watch for a while, again welcome.

[Bob]

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Thanks for the invite, Bob.

I am a nullafidian, that is, a person without beliefs, religious or ideological. I suppose I could be called an atheist, but I think such a label carries such preconceived notions and isn't technically accurate in my opinion.

 I imagine you think we're all nasty, hateful people, but I strive to be polite and respectful, if a bit ornery at times. I say that at the outset because I wish this to be a polite, respectful, honest conversation.

My view of the scriptures is that they are wonderful, but very human. The Bible was written, edited, redacted, copied, translated and compiled by humans. It doesn't even the claim the whole of it is divinely inspired, as 2 Timothy 3:16 refers to the scriptures which Timothy learned in his infancy. This would be the Tanach, not the NT.

But even if Paul claimed that somehow for both OT and NT, I don't see a good reason to believe it.

I picked the topic because I think far too often Christians talk about putting the scriptures into context, and then do just the opposite. If we wish to understand them, we have to understand the context -- historical, cultural, literary and so forth. Truthfully, it's not just Christians today that do this, but they (and Jews) have always done it. For example, Matthew 2:15 references Hosea 11:1 in respect to the family of Jesus fleeing to Egypt to escape Herod's slaughter of the innocents.

But Hosea 11:1 isn't a Messianic prophecy. It clearly references instead Exodus, and even names Israel as Yahweh's "son", and talks about how he turned to worship of the Baals, and how he taught Ephraim to walk. The Gospel of Matthew plays somewhat "fast and loose" with the scriptures. But don't take that to mean I don't like the gospel - - I think the author tends to find in the scriptures what he wants to find.

I also think Christians far too often gloss over important details. Like why does Jacob erect a stone in Genesis 28 and anoint it with oil? Because this was a common Canaanite practice, the stone is called a "massebah" and was used to signify the presence of a deity in Canaanite folk religion. Same goes for why Samuel and Saul worship at a high place (1 Samuel 9:25), or why the Israelites slaughtered their neighbors in the Herem Joshua 6:21; 1 Samuel 15:3)

Outside of the cultural context of ancient Judaism being essentially a Canaanite folk religion, such things make little sense. But once this is understood, their practices and ideas make much more sense.

Anyway, let me know what you think. Have a nice day and a Merry Christmas.

"I am a nullafidian" Saying that in public school could get 911 call. 

When I read the scriptures I like to pretend that I am reading the original text that had no verses.


Hosea 10-11

Israel is a lush vine; it yields fruit for itself. The more his fruit increased, the more he increased the altars. The better his land produced, the better they made the sacred pillars. Their hearts are devious; now they must bear their guilt. The Lord will break down their altars and demolish their sacred pillars. In fact, they are now saying: "We have no king! For we do not fear the Lord. What can a king do for us?" They speak [mere] words, taking false oaths while making covenants. So lawsuits break out like poisonous weeds in the furrows of a field. The residents of Samaria will have anxiety over the calf of Beth-aven. Indeed, its idolatrous priests rejoiced over it; the people will mourn over it, over its glory. It will certainly depart from them. The calf itself will be taken to Assyria as an offering to the great king. Ephraim will experience shame; Israel will be ashamed of its counsel. Samaria's king will disappear like foam on the surface of the water. The high places of Aven, the sin of Israel, will be destroyed; thorns and thistles will grow over their altars. They will say to the mountains, "Cover us!" and to the hills, "Fall on us!"
Israel's Defeat because of Sin
Israel, you have sinned since the days of Gibeah; they have taken their stand there. Will not war against the unjust overtake them in Gibeah?  I will discipline them at My discretion; nations will be gathered against them to put them in bondage for their two crimes. Ephraim is a well-trained young cow that loves to thresh, but I will place a yoke on her fine neck. I will harness Ephraim; Judah will plow; Jacob will do the final plowing. Sow righteousness for yourselves and reap faithful love; break up your untilled ground. It is time to seek the Lord until He comes and sends righteousness on you like the rain. You have plowed wickedness and reaped injustice; you have eaten the fruit of lies. Because you have trusted in your own way and in your large number of soldiers, the roar of battle will rise against your people, and all your fortifications will be demolished in a day of war, like Shalman's destruction of Beth-arbel. Mothers will be dashed to pieces along with [their] children. So it will be done to you, Bethel, because of your extreme evil. At dawn the king of Israel will be totally destroyed.
When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son. [The more] they called them, [the more] they departed from Me. They kept sacrificing to the Baals and burning offerings to idols. It was I who taught Ephraim to walk, taking them in My arms, but they never knew that I healed them. I led them with human cords, with ropes of kindness. To them I was like one who eases the yoke from their jaws; I bent down to give them food. Israel will not return to the land of Egypt and Assyria will be his king, because they refused to repent. A sword will whirl through his cities; it will destroy and devour the bars of his gates, because of their schemes. My people are bent on turning from Me. Though they call to Him on high, He will not exalt them at all. How can I give you up, Ephraim? How can I surrender you, Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I treat you like Zeboiim? I have had a change of heart; My compassion is stirred! I will not vent the full fury of My anger; I will not turn back to destroy Ephraim. For I am God and not man, the Holy One among you; I will not come in rage. They will follow the Lord; He will roar like a lion. When He roars, His children will come trembling from the west. They will be roused like birds from Egypt and like doves from the land of Assyria. Then I will settle them in their homes. [This is]*The bracketed text has been added for clarity. the Lord's declaration. Ephraim surrounds me with lies, the house of Israel, with deceit. Judah still wanders with El and is faithful to holy ones.

Mt 2:15 is an analogical use of this verse in relationship to Jesus Christ. It was the same with Jeremiah 31:15 and Matthew 2:16-18

This quotation from Hos 11:1, does speak of God’s leading Israel out of Egypt in the Exodus. Matthew suggests that Israel’s sojourn in Egypt was a pictorial prophecy, rather than a specific verbal one such as Matthew 2:6 and Matthew 1:23. These are called “types” and all are always fulfilled in Christ, and identified clearly by the NT writers. Another example of a type is found in Jn 3:14.

The New Testament (Brit Chadashah) itself tells us that it is from the word of God. Here are a couple of verses in acts that pointed out.

Acts 8:14
Acts 11:1
Acts 13:44

And if you believe in the deity of Jesus, as I do, His words on their face are THE WORD OF GOD.

Genesis 28:18
From John MacArthur:
Marking a particular site as of special religious significance by means of a stone pillar was a known practice. A libation offering, a change of place-name, and a vow of allegiance to the Lord in exchange for promised protection and blessing completed Jacob’s ceremonial consecration of Bethel, i.e., “House of God.”

You might want to look at John Gill’s commentary on the verse.


Much bigger question here is about the existence of a creator. Bringing up the questions of what should we consider good vs. bad. If there is no God who draws the line? Do animals know good from evil, right from wrong? Is a male grizzly bear wrong when he kills the Cubs a female bear so that he can mate with her? What makes us different from these animals?

I find it strange that throughout the world in the farthest corners and most isolated societies, from as far back as man can see his history people believed in a supreme deity.

[biblebuf]

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Rather, if we look at the cultural and historical contexts of the writings, they are generally quite transparent, particularly if we pay attention to sources, authors and different theologies present in the passages.

The name Hosea means salvation, it is about an adulterous nation and it’s salvation. 11:1 - 14:9 about how they were going to be restored to the Lord. Matthew was also aware of Psalms 2:7. In 13:4 God repeats His claim made in Isaiah 43 and 45 (For there is no savior besides Me). Only one savior, who is that? Luke 2:11 Right here in the middle of the Christmas story!

I respectfully submit you read the whole book, it is all an analogy. Follow your own advice.

God Bless and have a great new year!

[Fat]

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Just like to point out for those not familiar with the Bible that Hosea was written 700 years after the Exodus. It was it was obviously a prophecy of some kind but not the prophecy of the Exodus.
Sorry but I had to find two cents to put into this thread, forgive me.