Who Did Jesus Die For?

[OlympicClimb12]

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While there is 2 sides of the debate here one says Jesus died for all mankind the other says that Jesus dies for the elect only.
Now I would like to ask members here where do you stand on this issue?
Please try to use your best explanation and scriptures would be very helpful.

Did Jesus Die for All or for Only the Elect? Two Theologians Debate
For whom did Jesus die? For the sins of the entire humanity or only for the elect? This was the topic of a live debate between Messianic Jewish apologist Dr. Michael L. Brown and Alpha and Omega Ministries Director Dr. James White on RevelationTV.com Friday evening.

The issue boils down to what the intention of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit was in Christ going to the cross, said White, who heads the Phoenix, Ariz.-based evangelical Reformed Christian apologetics organization, as the debate began Friday at 9 p.m. EST.

"Jesus' death on the cross was a covenantal death," White said. "God deals with His people in the form of a covenant, and the new covenant was established in the blood of Jesus Christ. ... That has a specific audience, and a specific perfecting effect for those for whom it is made. Specifically, Jesus Christ died in behalf of His elect people and that in so doing He procured eternal redemption in their place."

read more.. http://www.christianpost.com/news/did-jesus-die-for-all-or-for-only-the-elect-two-theologians-debate-113382/

[Fat]

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While there is 2 sides of the debate here one says Jesus died for all mankind the other says that Jesus dies for the elect only.
Now I would like to ask members here where do you stand on this issue?
Please try to use your best explanation and scriptures would be very helpful.

Did Jesus Die for All or for Only the Elect? Two Theologians Debate
For whom did Jesus die? For the sins of the entire humanity or only for the elect? This was the topic of a live debate between Messianic Jewish apologist Dr. Michael L. Brown and Alpha and Omega Ministries Director Dr. James White on RevelationTV.com Friday evening.

The issue boils down to what the intention of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit was in Christ going to the cross, said White, who heads the Phoenix, Ariz.-based evangelical Reformed Christian apologetics organization, as the debate began Friday at 9 p.m. EST.

"Jesus' death on the cross was a covenantal death," White said. "God deals with His people in the form of a covenant, and the new covenant was established in the blood of Jesus Christ. ... That has a specific audience, and a specific perfecting effect for those for whom it is made. Specifically, Jesus Christ died in behalf of His elect people and that in so doing He procured eternal redemption in their place."

read more.. http://www.christianpost.com/news/did-jesus-die-for-all-or-for-only-the-elect-two-theologians-debate-113382/

He died for His sheep, the Church:

John 10:11,15
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Eph. 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Matt. 25:32-33
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Matt. 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (many not all)

And when was this covenant made to His sheep?

Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began ,

[Zant Law]

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Christ will not fail, he cannot fail, so if he died for all sins than all sins must be covered by his death. But we know this not to be true.
 

The question being asked is who did Jesus die for, not what did Jesus die for.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This gift is represented in other verses as an inheritance.

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance , being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Christ died so that we may receive our inheritance. Because without his death we cannot be worthy of that inheritance promised to us from Genesis 3:15.

[OlympicClimb12]

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 I think I can see this 2 ways. Sure Jesus offers life. But life to who? He offers salvation but salvation to who? Jesus was sitting at the table with sinners. They had scoffed at Jesus for doing this. Why is not Jesus sitting along with the righteous? Why is Jesus dining with sinners?

 Jesus told them those who are well don’t need to have a doctor. But those who are sick need to have a doctor. I had not come for the righteous. Jesus was not looking for the righteous since they who believe on Him are saved. But it is Jesus desire even to to save ’The Lost Sheep’ to go after that one. He is like a shepherd that leaves 99 in the sheep fold. He will go after the one who has turned away from God to call upon that lost sheep. There is no guarantee that sheep will come back.

Luke 15:1-7
The Parable of the Lost Sheep

15 Then all the tax collectors and the sinners drew near to Him to hear Him. 2 And the Pharisees and scribes complained, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them.” 3 So He spoke this parable to them, saying:

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.


In my Biblical opinion Jesus died for everyone.. Because on the day that Jesus died some had believed as the disciples and Mary his mother and Mary the sister of Lazarus. But Jesus said Father Father forgive them. . They do not know what they are doing.

Luke 23:34

34 Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.”[h]

Romans 5:8. Even while we were sinners Christ had died for us.

8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us

If Christ only died for the righteous then only some can be saved. But Jesus died for all mankind that any man will not have any excuse to say.. . But Lord I was a sinner and there was no way for me. But you sinner Christ died for you.

It is Jesus who become the Lamb that His blood was poured out for our transgressions.. if Christ only died for the Church and the righteous then the lost can not find a way for salvation.. Jesus said to the religious. I say to you Tax collectors and Prostitutes will enter the Kingdom before you will. Every person will stand before God. Many will say God and why do you judge me? Then God will say you owe an account of an explanation to me. For I have given the life of my only Son His blood in which He had died for you and all people. .

He has purchased this right that all shall give an explanation why or why not they did not accept this gift I had sent. Jesus died that we may have life in Him. But because He died many will also be condemned in rejecting His death. The Father has put all things under His feet.

So because Jesus died for all everyone has to make an account of did they believe or not believe on him Jesus. Because the blood Jesus poured out is fitting to judge both the righteous and the wicked. . Think of Jesus on the cross. One man accepted him the other did not.

One side is the sheep of the cross the other is the Goat. Then some will say Jesus I can’t go into the kingdom of God and why not? Jesus will say I died for you. If you would have believed you would have taken this gift.

[Zant Law]

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You are confusing the elect, the righteous and the sinless as the same.

Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;

When Christ spoke of the righteous who were they?

Can you name any person in history, other than Christ, that was without sin?

If Christ died for all then why are only the chosen allowed to come to Christ.

John 6
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.


64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.

[OlympicClimb12]

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 Hi Zant. I think we just have a little misunderstanding from where you are coming from and where I am coming from. You are speaking of salvation to those who will be saved. I agree with all what you say concerning Salvation.

However while Jesus did die on the cross to save people in reality Jesus died for all sins.

Romans 5:12-21
Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Zant it is true what you say to those who are saved. However Jesus still died for every man, woman, and child for all sin.

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.

Jesus died for all sins and all sinners. This does not “Guarantee “ automatic Salvation. If dying on the cross does not guarantee salvation how could Jesus die for every sinner? Because this is a guarantee that every man, woman, and,child has ’A Way’ to be forgiven for the sins if they shall call upon the name of the Lord. Jesus says John 14:7 I am the way, the truth, and the life and no one goes to the Father except by Me.

Jesus did not say for some of you have sinned and for those sins were too harsh that I am not able to cover this sin. But rather Jesus dying on the cross can save the most petty of white lies even to the most vile murderer or Rapist”. But only if they who sin ’Repent’ from the sins to turn to Jesus. Jesus took the place of Barabbas the thief. 2 men died on each side. Jesus told one man you are going to Paradise cause this man accepted Jesus gift of salvation. But Jesus also died for the other man who did not accept Jesus. Accept that man refused to believe. If the man that rejected him only to know that Jesus died for all Sins that each person can call upon the name of Jesus to be right with God..

Jesus became the sacrifice and atonement for all sin. Yet while that is true ‘All are not Saved’. The only ones who are saved who will accept Jesus death on the cross believe in Him obey God repent from sins and live a Godly life from that point on..

Jesus died for all sins to give everyone a way John 3:17 that anyone who believes will not perish but have Eternal life. Therefore the gift of salvation is offered to all Mankind. But the gift is “only'‘ given only to those who receive this gift.. For those who do not accept this offering took Christ in vain and the judgment of God’s wrath will fall upon them. So who can be saved? Anyone still alive if they do according all what the Word of God says in the Bible.

[Zant Law]

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However while Jesus did die on the cross to save people in reality Jesus died for all sins.

Now if your theory is true, are you telling me that Christ died for the sins of Satan?

What you are doing here is diminishing God's grace, His sovereignty. You're also saying that Christ could not complete His work. You are doing this by saying that the work must be completed (finished) by man. In reality, John 6 tells us that it is the Father who gives us the belief that we need to come to His Son.

What is your explanation of John 6:65?

Here is what John MacArthur says about the verse.

Although men and women are commanded to believe and will be held accountable for unbelief, genuine faith is never exclusively a matter of human decision. Once again, in the face of unbelief, Jesus reiterated God’s sovereignty involved in selection for salvation.

John 6:45 tells us that no one can resist the Fathers call. (Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me)



      John 10
:11 "I am the good shepherd ; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 "He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 "He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father ; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold ; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice ; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

A Shepherd does not die for another man's sheep. Are there two herds of sheep that we are talking about? Of course let's go back and look at the beginning.

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed ; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

Do you think this makes God unmerciful? Paul discuss this in Romans 9.


Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault ? For who resists His will ?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God ? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use ? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction ? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,


You say this is not about salvation, but does not salvation come from the forgiveness of sins? And if Christ died for all sins then are not all sins forgiven?

Even from the old testament the blood did not cover all, only His people.

Ezekiel 45:19 "The priest shall take some of the blood from the sin offering and put it on the door posts of the house, on the four corners of the ledge of the altar and on the posts of the gate of the inner court.

Christ blood covers all sin (all of the elects sins)

1 John 1:7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

[OlympicClimb12]

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Hi Zant Did you see that I had said I agree with those scriptures you share concerning the Salvation aspect? This debate is like whether Jonah was in a whale or a great fish. This is not necessary to tumble over these things. You have the Salvation aspect of this right.
 
But the aspects of sins are being over looked to why Jesus died on the Cross. The scriptures you present are 2 Sheep fold. The first is Israel and the other one Jesus is speaking of is the Gentiles”Lost Sinful people”. Jesus must go after those lost Gentiles to make new sheep and new disciples being grafted in with the Jews.
So in Matthew 4:16 Jesus is calling them who sat in the dark and saw and a great light.. Did they have a choice to believe or not believe? Sure they they did just like we do today. . If we don’t have a choice then God has forced this decision upon us.. You are misunderstanding what it means not to resist the voice of the shepherd. . That is telling us that 'the True sheep' those who follow Jesus do not resit him.. This is how God knows who His sheep is cause they listen to His voice.
 
But the question is now where did this sheep come from? The only way to gather new sheep is to leave the fold and gather new sheep. We are taught in the Bible using the wedding invitation parable.  Matthew 22:1-14
The Parable of the Wedding Feast
22 And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.”’ 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.’ 10 So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12 So he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and[a] cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Notice this Parable says we are invited. It shows that some refused to go. Others decided to go. Some dressed for this and others did not. . This goes to show that this is a human choice to accept or reject God. They were not forced by the Holy Spirit to believe God. The Holy Spirit does not force anyone to believe. But what the Holy Spirit does is reveal and guide us to those who give themselves over to God with the heart allowing God to guide. See a sheep can listen to the choice of the Shepherd or that sheep can stray away from His voice. But if that sheep strays then that sheep is not of that sheep fold. . Therefore God would call after that sheep that strayed away from the sheep fold. . but he that strayed away must listen to the voice of the Shepherd to return back to the sheep fold. .. If that sheep does not listen then he is not of the fold and has chosen themselves to refuse God’s calling. As much as the Holy Spirit can plead to this person to believe that person can still reject this calling if 'They don’t believe'. We all have that choice. So to hear the Holy Spirit takes faith, belief, and obedience toward God he that listens to the shepherd. The Holy Spirit is not going to spend years of time on someone who does not want God around them.. But the Holy Spirit may keep trying to save someone that is not saved.
 
Jesus died for all sinners. Its why Mel Gibson put in the nail in the right hand of Jesus in the Passion of the Christ. Gibson said I did that because my sins put Jesus there. . No more pigeons or other animals to substitute sin any longer. . for Jesus died for all sins. It does not say he died for Satan but only for man that sinned.. It is mans decision to accept or reject Salvation. But man himself can not save himself. . God is the only one who can save anyone. .. It's not mans effort to save himself which he can not. But rather to to make that choice to accept God or to reject God. God can not force this decision upon us. Every person makes that choice..

Jesus died for all Sins so that no person has any excuse to say but have sinned greater than God can cover me. They however will not have an excuse because Jesus did die for all sins. So that sinner who confesses to God and repents can be saved because at this point God has forgiven their sins. If however this person does not turn to God their sins are upon themselves. They did not accept Jesus payment by His Blood. . In God’s eyes someone or some animal must pay for sins. Blood is accountable for payment. The Father sent His Son to pay for our sins.

So we have 2 choices Romans 6:23 first option the wages of sin is death. We can choose sin and take the wages of death. Or the better option Jesus that paid for our sins. For in Jesus we have eternal life. . So it is a personal choice to accept death by the wage of sins or to accept life to those Jesus who paid that price. His blood purchased us. . Our sins brought him to the cross. . But those sins can be forgiven only if we ask him.

[Zant Law]

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You should re-examine your parable because the parable you chose is about salvation. Christ death is about salvation.

Let's try this again, who did Christ die for?

If Christ died to cover all sins, are not those sins all covered?

This is either a yes or no answer, you can't put limitations on your answer. You can qualify your answer by saying except those who do not accept Him. Either Christ died for all sins are he did not. If he died for all sins then all sins are covered without exception. Christ died for ALL believers, not for Satan.

John 17:4
"I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.


John 17:2
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

John 6:39
"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

Philippians 1:6
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Look at Hebrews 9:22, which made clear that the shedding of blood was for atonement of sins.

(HCS) According to the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Blood was shed for forgiveness!

Who did Christ die for?

[OlympicClimb12]

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Christ dies for all mankind. For every man falls short of the Glory of God.
You Zant have sinned. Christ dies for you.

That man sitting in jail for murdering a woman Jesus dies for him also.
So now the only difference is who will accept what Jesus has done dying on the cross?

Matthew 1:21
21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

So in likewise Jesus had to go to the Gentiles for they who sat in darkness. For if Jesus did not then how can they know who the Lord and Savior is? Jesus did die for all mankind and for all sins.
Zant quit saying Satan because I never said his sin.

Christ had to die for all of mans sins because God the Father was looking for someone to pay that price.
No mortal man was able to do this except Jesus who was without sin.
So in this way no matter what sin anyone commits because Jesus can cover all of mans sins his blood will cover that.
If they confess these sins to turn them over to God. There is a reason why Jesus is called the Savior of the world.

Zant you nor I is innocent. We deserve to perish. But if we are saved it is only by grace.

[Zant Law]

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Christ dies for all mankind. For every man falls short of the Glory of God.
You Zant have sinned. Christ dies for you.

That man sitting in jail for murdering a woman Jesus dies for him also.
So now the only difference is who will accept what Jesus has done dying on the cross?

Matthew 1:21
21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

So in likewise Jesus had to go to the Gentiles for they who sat in darkness. For if Jesus did not then how can they know who the Lord and Savior is? Jesus did die for all mankind and for all sins.
Zant quit saying Satan because I never said his sin.

Christ had to die for all of mans sins because God the Father was looking for someone to pay that price.
No mortal man was able to do this except Jesus who was without sin.
So in this way no matter what sin anyone commits because Jesus can cover all of mans sins his blood will cover that.
If they confess these sins to turn them over to God. There is a reason why Jesus is called the Savior of the world.

Zant you nor I is innocent. We deserve to perish. But if we are saved it is only by grace.

Yes! By grace alone, less we boast.