Your kind of Rapture or not

[OlympicClimb12]

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Ok there seems to be a division on End times Bible prophecy the most common Bible views that Christians often espouse. I don’t however want to expound on some of the most craziest End time view points I have seen at some other posting boards.. its because of these strange views I suddenly had stopped posting in the Bible prophecy section leaving the board altogether.. Apostasy is making its way onto many of these boards. Here I would like to stick with 4 of the main common mainstream Bible prophecy views. Each person will decide which of these fits them best..

1. A Pre Trib Rapture. These Christians Bellini in a literal 7 year tribulation. They believe before this period begins Christ will take the Church on an unknown hour. They will be raptured taken into the third Heaven. There they will wait for 7 years. When Christ returns they will come back with him to rule on the Earth for1000 years. Does this fit your view points? You pre trib? If so exaplin why with verses to support this.

2. Next is Mid Trib Rapture. . This group believes that either just before the Antichrist is revealed or immediately after he is revealed they will be Raptured or about 3 and a half years. They also believe during this time they will be in the third Heaven when the seals trumpets and bowls are happening on the Earth. They will return with Christ ruling with him. Does this belief describe your Biblical view points? Give explanations and scriptures as to why.

3. The third is Post Trib Rapture. This group believes Christians will go through the 7 year trib. Yet more technically the 3 and a half great trib. They will endure these things on Earth. They will see the coming Antichrist. They will see the seals trumpets and bowls. . They will be here till the end of the trib till Jesus returns a second time. Then they will be Raptured to meet Jesus and immediately come down with him.. Does this belief describe your Biblical view points? Give explanations and scriptures as to why.

4. Last one is Preterism. Preterism is a growing belief among Protestant Church. This teaching believes that after 3 and a half year Jesus had died that the 70 weeks of Daniel was fulfilled. That when Stephen was stoned to death was the fulfillment of the end of this Prophecy also begins. These Christians believe that Jerusalem is the great Harlot in Rev.17 from 66 to 70 Ad. They say Matthew 24 is the abomination Nero who is also the Beast in Revelation.  They say he is commonly called the Beast. That all Rev from 1 Ad to 70 AD the destruction of the temple can be explained in the symbolic evidence of John's visions. So now they only believe the second resurrection and the final judgment is the only thing to look forward. They don’t believe in a great trib. They don’t believe in a future antichrist. They believe it all happened in 70 AD..

Does this describe your belief of the Bible and why and what scriptures to support these views? Later on I will share my Bible Prophecy view points. Since I am a new member I think it is fair to ask others first how they feel about God’s clock and the timing of these things.Let's see where we go from here.

[Zant Law]

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2 Thessalonians 2.7  For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work ; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

Will the Holy Ghost be removed from the Church and leave it unprotected?

[Fat]

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I can go pre-trib or mid-trib. But post-trib is un-Biblical.

[OlympicClimb12]

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For now I am just going to say that for years I used to be Pre Trib rapture. . I followed Tim La Hayes and other books. That including John Hagees coming of the Antichrist.
 
Several years ago I questioned my belief. . Is this Pre trib Rapture really true? I searched the scriptures from chapter to chapter. I did not find a Pre trib Rapture using context way of study. . I came to found a large number of Christians were also once Pre trib and became Post trib just like I did using this method of study. . The deal is Pre trib is much believed because it seems like the most safe answer. Everyone wants to feel safe.. It once did sound logical. I used to defend Pre trib.

Today I share Post trib to make others ready. . If they think they will be gone for what reason is for them to get prepared for anything? Do you know the Devil does not want Christians to be on guard? The best way to attack your enemy is by surprise.. The Antichrist does not want Christians to know they will be here. If they did they would be warning their friends.

Instead many of these Christians go to Church thinking they will leave their friends behind. Planes crashing, Helicopters crashing, cars crashing, you believe this is what is going to ignite the beginning of the trib? That is Tim LaHayes version and movies. But that is not the way things are going to happen.
You look for a secret Rapture but not looking for these events coming up in the future. . They keep telling you you're not going to be here. You will be safe in Heaven.. The antichrist does not want a bunch of whistle blowers. . What if Christians believe they would be gone? Fine if they can believe that they don’t need to blow the whistle on the antichrist in the future. . They will say not me. I don’t have to worry. Those non believers will stay here. If that is what you believe. There is more in store.

I will share more about Post Trib Rapture why it is Biblical. Once I thought post trib was impossible to to happen. . Today I believe it is most likely what is going to happen. . If Christians actually are gone 7 years before the trib I am going to be surprised. Because in scripture I can't find Pre trib Rapture.At least not the way I study today..

My first evidence to support Post Trib Rapture in Matthew 24. I don’t see in the Olivet Discourse Jesus talking about a Rapture that occurs before any mentioning of the abomination of Desolation in Judea. . While it is perhaps a synopsis view of the signs of the end of the age Jesus would not skip this important event. . This is where I begin.. I never knew 16years later I would be challenging John Hagees End time Prophecy view.. Even as 10 years from now I don’t know what will be happening. . Need to take every thing day by day. Step by step. . That's how we ought to study.

[Fat]

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1) One problem that you have with the Post-trib rapture is that everyone will know the day it is going to happen. Why? First because you will be able to count from the time the two witnesses appear. At that day you will know you will have 3 1/2 years left of the tribulation and then comes the day of our Lord.

1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.
7 Now when they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.

Notice that area of the temple will be treaded on by the Gentiles for 42 months. Also for one thousand two hundred and sixty days (42 months) God raises up two witnesses to prophecy.

2) Second exactly half way into Daniel’s 70th week, at the 3 ½ year mark, the Antichrist will walk into the rebuilt temple, in Jerusalem, on the Temple Mount and proclaim himself God. ( Dan 9:27, Dan 11:31, Mt 24: 15 )

Only believers will be looking for Christ to return. At the 3 1/2 year point of the tribulation any believers would know that they were at the halfway point and that there was only 1260 days until the return of Christ to rule over the earth. For these believers to remain on earth counting down the 1260 days would not hold up to biblical prophecy.

[OlympicClimb12]

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  Thanks for sharing this aspect of Revelation. These 2 Witnesses kind of scare me. I would not purposely want to be against them.  I kind of figured this was going to become a debate. Pre and post is the most often conflicted end time views with Mid trib in the mix to solve the solution who cant’ decide Pre or Post aspect.

Well I am not counting 1260 days alone. Now remember the 2 witnesses are killed at a specific moment therefore they won’t be here the 3 ½ years.
To understand the fulfillment of the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 we also must understand to bring Daniel 12 into the picture because it’s in Daniel 12 that explains exactly what happens in the last 3 ½ years. This chapter can also be understood with Matthew 24 side by side. See Daniel 12:1 matches Matthew 24:21. Now Daniel 12:2 matches Matthew 24:30-31. Then the rest of the verses in Daniel 12 shows us the picture between Matthew 24:15-31.

Lastly, if you connect these chapters with 1Thess.&2 Thess. Books the order of events will seem clearer.
When I compare these events in these 4 Books it’s in the same order.
First the falling away, man of perdition to be revealed, the 2nd Coming of Christ and the rapture happened after these things
according to 2Thess. 2:1-3.

[Fat]

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  Thanks for sharing this aspect of Revelation. These 2 Witnesses kind of scare me. I would not purposely want to be against them.  I kind of figured this was going to become a debate. Pre and post is the most often conflicted end time views with Mid trib in the mix to solve the solution who cant’ decide Pre or Post aspect.

Well I am not counting 1260 days alone. Now remember the 2 witnesses are killed at a specific moment therefore they won’t be here the 3 ½ years.
To understand the fulfillment of the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 we also must understand to bring Daniel 12 into the picture because it’s in Daniel 12 that explains exactly what happens in the last 3 ½ years. This chapter can also be understood with Matthew 24 side by side. See Daniel 12:1 matches Matthew 24:21. Now Daniel 12:2 matches Matthew 24:30-31. Then the rest of the verses in Daniel 12 shows us the picture between Matthew 24:15-31.

Lastly, if you connect these chapters with 1Thess.&2 Thess. Books the order of events will seem clearer.
When I compare these events in these 4 Books it’s in the same order.
First the falling away, man of perdition to be revealed, the 2nd Coming of Christ and the rapture happened after these things
according to 2Thess. 2:1-3.

Two things come to mind when reading your post, first is you believe that the rapture and the second coming will happen at the same time, secondly that you are replacing the Jews with the church. I hope that you are not into replacement theology, I believe this is heresy.

If you believe that the rapture and the second coming of Christ are the same then your Bible has a conflict in it.


This is the rapture not the second coming, there is nothing here about Christ returning to Earth.

1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Cor 15:52  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet ; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Matthew 24:44 "For this reason you also must be ready ; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

Again take note of the tribulation rapture of the two witnesses you’ll see that they had been prophesying for 1260 days after the temple is rebuilt. You’re telling me that you won’t notice two guys turning water into blood or that something looking like the temple is standing in the middle of Jerusalem?


Rev 11:1 Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff ; and someone said, "Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. 2 "Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations ; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months. 3 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies ; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way. 6 These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying ; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire. 7 When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. 9 Those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate ; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth. 11 But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet ; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them. 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." Then they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them.

Like a thief in the night!

Sorry my friend on this point we must disagree, it is one point where the majority of Christians actually get it right. 

[OlympicClimb12]

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Hi Fat I feel a little bit better now. I was tired and dizzy since yesterday. Now my neck and head kind of hurt but not to bad over all.

Well if you are Pre trib rapture and you say Post trib is not a true teaching you say that because you hold to the one view point which you believe to be more true than the other view. Because you know you can not be both Pre trib and Post trib at the same time. So in order to prove one of them is right is also to prove the other one is not . .

So in knowing this I want to let you know I am ‘Not’ personally attacking you. . Rather I must try if I can to show why I believe Post Trib is more of a correct view point than Pre trib rapture. Yet I apologize Fat because in this kind of debate it is difficult not to offend others. But as much as we don’t like to oppose even our friends we as Paul still need to stand for what we believe is being taught in God’s words. . I will try my best to be sportsman ship debate on this topic. I debate Pre trib. . Not words personally against you. So let us continue in this debate Pre and Post trib and anyone Mid trib. . Preterism would have to be in another thread itself since it is a complete different Biblical view point.

I began to learn about God in 1997 when I first started getting more serious to reading the Bible. I began to watch TBN on TV. I got a few books one from John Haggee the coming of the Antichrist. One from Pat Robertson the World order. Bruce and Stan End time for dummies. This I used to follow the WPM with Ed Hindson and Tim La Hayes with Thomas Ice.

But I was a follower back then. I used to believe every Church program on TV. I did not know the difference between Christian and Catholic Churches. . I thought Baptist and Pentecostal were the same thing.

In saying this I became Pre trib Rapture because that is only what I knew and heard. . while I read books and new letters I did not that much look up scriptures. I just believed what I was told. . I guess it was a bad habit not to look this up. But since they printed it on the page why look up what they already put in their letters?

On a certain forum some had challenged my Pre trib rapture views. Yeah I told them Jesus will return before the trib . and then bring the Church back 7 years later. What is you proof they asked? This is where I got in trouble. I actually did not know how to teach pre trib. So I just went to Rev 3:10. I said you know because of Noah's flood we can't be here. I could not protect myself. So I wrote to WPM where Tim La hayes was located. I told them look I am stuck on this posting forum . I am trying to defend pre trib rapture. Can you help me? They wrote me back and said they can't do that. They are not going to get involved on a minor posting board disagreement. To think I was going to get help from Tim La Hayes or Ed Hindson they had backed out. . So I was on my own. .

Then Bill said something did you know that Pre trib did not exist for centuries? I said what are you talking about? He said let me share with you some links. I just ended up deleting them. Come on you can’t prove Hal Lindsay Greg Laurie that they are wrong. So I kept defending pre trib even not being that well in the Bible at that time. .

Some time had passed and I was on another forum with all Pre ttrib believers. . they kept saying Jesus is going to be back soon. No matter a quake a war story they did not seem to care much except being Rapture. This is what got me to start reading in a new method. . I can’t just open the pages and scripture to believe them just because they told me. I must believe God first. So I must read every verse to take notice where God stands on these things. . after some study I then concluded I am now Post Trib Rapture. With the books I have read in the Bible I am not convinced of a seven year Early Rapture. .

Where does Jesus or Paul actually say and the Lord said seven years before the end will come the rapture? I began to use Matt 24 as an accurate testimony how these things should happen Dispensational understanding of God’s word. . That all other scriptures had to agree with the Olivet Discourse. Because you will notice Matt 24 is accurate and plain in language. I read all the way to verse fifteen. There is the abomination. Now where is the mention of this Pre trib Rapture? If it is not here in this testimony then there is already a great problem why Jesus would not mentioned it here..

So I read on to 1 and 2Thess. Please notice that 1 Thessalonians and 2 Thessalonians are 2 letters. It is a 2 part letter. . therefore to understand letter 1 I also read letter 2 for more explanation. . Because 1Thess 4:16-17 to be caught up with Jesus. . Notice this happens on the “Last Trumpet’.  What is the last Trumpet in Revelation? That is the Seventh Trumpet. So if this is the last trumpet that means it happens at the End of the age. . the End of age happens at the End of the 3 and a half great trib period.

The first 3 and a half were fulfilled when Jesus was here for 33 and a half years to understand Daniel 9 for this will be cut off but not for himself only. And the end shall come as a Flood and of desolation. So the last 3 and half year the Great trib happens as Noahs flood which is the Son of man coming in the clouds in his glory. So it is only the last 3 and half year that will fulfill this prophecy of Daniels 70 weeks..

Yet there will be a 42 months that proceeds before the great tribulation. This first 42 months brings forth the first Beast in Revelation. He is of world Nations represented by ten Rulers. These 10 will be the most powerful among the first Beast world unity. Then from ten shall come 2 horns He is the second Beast that will take over the first Beast. He will rule over all nations for 3 and a half years. . Rev 13. He will cause all small great free and slave to have a mark place on their right hand or forehead the number to this wisdom. .

Christians will be here during this time. And why is that? Because in 1Thess 1:4 they are gathered with Jesus. But this verse does not say they went up to the Third Heaven. Neither did it say they went down either. It only says they gathered with him and shall ever be with him. . It take 2Thess 2 to answer what took place in chapter 1 or letter 1. The Thess. church was trouble when the gathering to occur? First they were told those who died are a sleep and will be raised on the last day. . Now in chapter 2 Paul gets more specific in verses 1 2 and 3 saying.
 
Brethren do not be shaken or trouble in your mind. For the day of the Lord and the gathering to be with him shall be no means happen not even by any letter written by anyone. And neither by any spirit or angel. Do not let any man deceive you. For this can not happen until the apostacy happens first and then shall the man of perdition be revealed..

There we got. That is the answer. This is not a parable. This is not symbolic, metaphoric or allegory. This is plain words in simple language. Notice Paul says both the gathering and the day of the Lord can not happen till these 2 happen first. If it also says gathering along with the day of the Lord side by side how can we question this or change the order of this?. We were told not even to let any man deceive us telling us these events would be in another order. Notice also Paul doesn't say and first there shall be a rapture then apostasy and the man of perdtion?

But 2Thess 1-3 answers 1Thess 4:16-17 the very question they wanted to know when they day would occur. Therefore now see Daniel 9, Daniel 12, Mat 24, 1Thess and 2Thess all agree in the same time line. For even Daniel was asked when shall be the end of these things? So he is told of the abomination count 1335 days.

Now we are told this in Matthew. Matthew is New Testament books for all believers. Those who believe in Judaism does not read Matthew. . so neither do they read Revelation. Only Messianic Jews and Christians read the New Testament. The message of Mathew 24 is for both Messianic Jews and Christians alike. For the Bible says there is no difference of Jew and Gentile.
Romans 10:12
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.

So if there is no longer any difference Jesus has shown us believers what is to happen. The only way to be out of here is to exclude part of Matthew 24, part of 2Thess and most of Revelation. . that would be partial teaching. But as believers we need to believe God wrote these instructions for all of us. If you believe these New Testament books only apply to Jews and not to Christians or only to Christians and not to Messianic Jews then you have divided these groups. .

We will see both the Jews and Gentiles go into the seven year trib. Because the last trumpet is also the 7th. The seventh is the day Jesus returns. The wrath of God and the resurrection will occur on the same day. The Day of the Lord. Day is singular. Not multi returns. There can not be 2 seven trumpets and 2 last days. There is only one seven and 1 last day at the end of the trib to end of this age. So if Matthew 24 and 1Thess are 2 different trumpets then one needs to create a whole new trumpet not found in Revelation. Because we know Jesus appears in the clouds only on the last trumpet number seven.

[Fat]

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I am glad to read that you are up and around. I'm sure that the soreness will stay with you for some time. Hopefully the worst of it is over with and nothing but the good results remain.

Because you wanted to give me your background I thought I would returned in kind. I have been a Christian since the 1950s and I have found that if you're going to rely on somebody else's commentary of the Bible you should scrutinize it, ultimately comparing it with the actual written word. The Bible does not conflict with itself. When you use the trumpet analogy you should first find out if Paul's last trumpet  and John's seventh trumpet are the same. Now what if Matt 24 (a sermon for the Jews) is not addressing the rapture it is addressing the second coming? And yes we are told there will be Christians on the earth at that time. Zechariah 13:8 One third of Israel will remain faithful to Christ, part of that will be the 144,000. Is it possible that He is speaking of a second rapture for those that have endured the great tribulation (Revelation 7:14)?

I really do believe that your getting the second coming and the rapture confused. I posted verses for you that show it impossible for there to be a post tribulation rapture. I also told you that I'm divided between pre-and mid-rapture, either one being possible and conforming to the Scriptures. I do not want to restate my argument just to take up band space.

The rapture (John 14:1-3 Rev 3:10 1 Cor 15:51-54 1 Th 4:16-17) and the second coming (1 Th 5:2, 4  2 Th 2:2 ) are distinguished from each other.

Like a thief in the night!

[OlympicClimb12]

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Hi Fat thanks for welcoming me back. I kind of feel at home here because recently I was posting on a forum with lots of members and rooms. For me it was a bit difficult to keep up with 3 or 4 major debates happening in 1 day.. Plus the endless posters answers and trying to do research in between. . I wanted to be on a less crowed board like this one. However this place still may be good to add another 4 to 7 daily posters..

But as small as our group is now things are holding up pretty well so far. I would like to get more acquainted as friends with you and other members over time. I like to know people at least on a somewhat personal level instead of always posting among strangers at the large forums.. I have felt more relaxed over here being that I don't feel anyone is pushing me against my limits. After all I like to think in ‘ A Church’ thinking aspect Body of believers such as us here.

Ok so we don’t agree on every aspect. Well neither did the Disciples when Jesus was walking on the Earth with them. . consider some of the arguments they got into. Like who is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven? Or why is Jesus talking about yeast? What bread does He speak of? So if the disciples had issues, we not being any better why not us?. Even Paul led by the Holy Spirit said.

1 Corinthians 13:12 (NKJV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

You're probably not going to like this part here I am posting on this debate.. But to me this was an eye opener to consider of. Pre trib rapture to its origin is not known. But the writing found comes from the 19th century. It is said a woman named Margaret MacDonald was one of the first in her 117 line of Bible Prophecy to depict the Rapture and second coming as 2 separate events. Because in 1611 was the making of the Kings James Bible. Therefore the early Christians of America were more in line with Post trib view as today. . For they believed Jesus was only to return once. They did not believe in a separate Rapture event later 2 or 3 centuries born in the19th century.

I find it ironic the that other dangerous teachings began about that time also. The Latter Day Saints, the Jehovah's Witness Darwin and the Theory of Evolution. . Yes the 19th century has bore a lot of dangerous modern day teaching of today. Simple once I told a Mormon fried. How can you say the  truth suddenly was revealed in 18 something? Where was the truth before that?

post trib therefore goes further back in belief. Early Christians also tried to preserve our Christian heritage and practicing the Bible in ones daily life. Kids were allowed to take Bibles to school and read them out loud. And at home a young son may say Mama and Papa I have done work outside and I did my school work. Can I please go outside and play?. . The Papa says Yes my Son. You may go. But make sure you are home before sunset. And the Mother goes up to her son she grabs his coat to put it on him. She hugs her son before he goes. That was living the early Christian life with love in the family. While this is not always the case it was more likely to happen then than now. Look how family and children behave today. I therefore support and believe in more traditional Christian values and my support for Post trib which has been believe for centuries. As to what people believed in first century AD I know less about that age of people. .
 
I was recommended by a Church to consider more classic traditional Bible Books, concordances, and Bible commentaries. They told me much of today's 20th century and 21 has much been water down.. As I started doing this I seen why they said this.

I used to follow JV McGee a more modern day teacher. Now I was going back in the early days of Matthew Henry, Spurgeon or such those and others who Biblically to me made more sense than many of the more modern books we have today. After all Jesus did warn us of a falling away. The falling away happens later and not before. . So pretty much pre trib in my opinion is a modern day teaching.. . Perhaps to some this is or is not enough evidence to make one think. So I would also like to share this.

I’m going to use the illustration of the Heavenly body we call the moon. . One week looking outside at night time 4 days the moon can be seen. 3 days it it did  not appear. Every time the Moon appears in the atmosphere counts as one appearance. If I see the moon 4 times in one week in the atmosphere I say that is 4 appearances. The 3 other days the moon did not show itself I could not count a number. Notice then only by the moon being in the atmosphere yet in space seen on Earth we counted that number as 1 appearance each time we see the moon..
 
  In likewise let's consider Jesus on the Earth the first time. That is his first appearance with no doubt.. When Jesus ascended in the heaven the people were weeping. Then the angel said to them why is it that you weep? For the Lord will return in the same like manner as He left.. This is a promise that the way Jesus left in also the same like manner will he return. So if there was a separate Rapture several years before his second coming this would defy what the angel had said..

The angel did not say Jesus would first be gathering the people to return to Heaven and bring them years back later. . But simply as He left shall He also return. So if there is a rapture and a second coming we have to count that as 3 appearances. Because even if Jesus is in the atmosphere for a twinkling of an eye then the rapture would actually count as His second coming. The moon did not need to land on the Earth to prove its appearing. . The same holds with Jesus himself. . if Jesus can be seen even for a moment that counts as His appearing.
 
This is some of my understanding some thinking I have learned outside of just Bible scriptures. This is more to take in consideration. I am sorry and I apologize you probably don’t like to hear things like this I have posted here. . But remember I am not opposed or against you as a friend. . but I have been for the past 2 or 3 years working on Post trib and what I feel are the problems in Pre trib Rapture thinking.

Later or tomorrow I will share some more Bibcal aspect on Pre and Post trib comparisons of which I need to find a few scriptures I don’t have memorized at this moment.. Fat I hope this debate is not making you stressed out.. if you say Climber I have said and heard enough as I wanted to. If you should say this then I will stop this debate. . Because my intention is not to attack. I am trying to get people ready to those who are not aware of anything that is going on and those also who think we will not be here during that time..

I cant’ share this as a picnic. It's the kind of news I wish I had no responsibility. Please if only I can share good things. .Apparently though I feel if I stay silent then God will say how come you did not tell anyone about these times ahead?. So I share mostly because I feel I and others will answer to God what exactly was our calling here.. Whatever we know whatever talent God has given to each of us I don't prevent those from sharing. Even if we agree or disagree its everyone’s right to share our faith in God. Your friend RJ

[Fat]

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In likewise let's consider Jesus on the Earth the first time. That is his first appearance with no doubt.. When Jesus ascended in the heaven the people were weeping. Then the angel said to them why is it that you weep? For the Lord will return in the same like manner as He left.. This is a promise that the way Jesus left in also the same like manner will he return. So if there was a separate Rapture several years before his second coming this would defy what the angel had said..

Because even if Jesus is in the atmosphere for a twinkling of an eye then the rapture would actually count as His second coming.

Christ first appearance was on earth in his second appearance will be likewise.
Let's make one thing perfectly clear Christ will not return to the earth during the rapture. He is in the clouds for twinkle of the eye, that's like less than a second. That is not the second coming by any stretch of imagination. We are not talking about Jesus just touching the atmosphere during the second coming, he will set on the throne of David and rain over the earth. The rapture is from earth to heaven, but the Second Coming it is from heaven to earth.

When I was born there was no Israel and replacement theology was in full swing. This happened because people did not trust the Scriptures and they could not believe that God would allow Israel to be nonexistent for such a long period of time. God's plan is not mans plan, God put his plan in the Scriptures they are clear.

For thousands of years the Jews misunderstood the prophecies of their God. They misunderstood who the Messiah would be and his purpose for being sent to them.


Post-trib cannot stand up to scrutiny without discarding selected Scriptures to suit it's theory. These are things that the Catholics, latter-day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses and others have had to do to justify their own biblical interpretation of the Scriptures.

You still have not addressed the inconsistencies pointed out to him concerning post-trib rapture. You might feel better if you do research into those who believe in the mid-trib rapture, it is biblical and does not run and any conflicts that I can see.

Mid-tribulationalists differ from post-tribulationalists on the following points:
(1)      Mid-tribulationalism affirms the clear scriptural teaching that believers will not suffer the wrath of God (Luke 21:36; Rom. 5:9; 1 Thess. 1:10, 5:9), while post-tribulationalists affirm that believers will suffer being on earth while God's wrath is poured out. While Scripture allows that believers will undergo tribulation (θλιψις) simply by virtue of being a Christian in this world (John 16:33), believers will not suffer the wrath (oργή) of God (Rom. 5:9, 1 Thess. 1:10, 5:9). The word θυμός (outburst of anger or wrath) is used nine times in the book of Revelation; in each case nonbelievers (not believers) are the object of this wrath (Rev. 14:8, 19; 15:1, 7; 16:1, 19:15). Likewise, the word oργή (settled wrath) is used of God twenty-seven times in the New Testament; in no case are believers the object of this wrath. However, of fifty-five times the word θλιψις (tribulation) is used, forty-seven times this is an experience to be endured by believers. Scripture thus draws a clear distinction between tribulation and wrath. Post-tribulationalism does not adequately account for this distinction.
(2)      Mid-tribulationalism offers a better account of the scriptural division of the events of the end times in two halves than does pre-tribulationalism. Post-tribulationalists, like pre-tribulationalists, ignore or gloss over the precise language separating the signs and events of the end into two distinct periods.
(3)      Mid-tribulationalism takes the rapture mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4 as a distinctive event, while post-tribulationalists view it as merely synonymous with the second coming of Christ. Since Scripture affirms that believers will not suffer the wrath of God, as explained above, the rapture is a logical necessity as well as a scriptural promise. Mid-tribulationalists would claim the promise of Revelation 3:10: "Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell upon the earth." Furthermore, Revelation 7:14 speaks of saints coming "out of the great tribulation." Both passages refer to believers coming "out of" (έκ) the trial of the great tribulation. What could these passages possibly mean, if not to suggest that believers will be taken out of this world during the outpouring of the wrath of God? Furthermore, the return of Christ in Scripture is not only for the saints but with the saints (Jude 14-15, Rev. 19:11-16). This would suggest that the saints were with Him in heaven.

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Fat-

Once you determine who the restrainer is, I think you'll come to the conclusion that it is going to be a mid-trib rapture. Either way we will not be here for the final judgement.

BB

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Fat, you say Post trib is about false religion? Well please let me share that when I used to be Pre trib Rapture that is exactly what they taught me. WPM (World Prophetic Ministries) accused Post trib of being of heretic false teaching. Because WPM said such things I had refused to even listen to no words on Post trib testimony. I did not allow Post trib a fair chance just because Tim La Hayes and others called this false teaching. .
 
Now I am glad I have read the Post trib view points. To me in my Biblical view Post trib makes more sense than Pre trib and mid trib Raptures. I have what I believe in my belief Biblical scripture to back up Post trib rapture.. Before you call this heresy you also accuse the Early American Christians who believed Jesus only returns once. So we were founded upon an Early Christian heretic nation?. It's funny that John Hagee suddenly wants us to take notice on Early America and suddenly adopt to a modern day Pre Trib Rapture Theology not espoused by Early Christians. . They tried to preserve the Truth. But over centuries the truthy became in many Churches watered down or what Jesus calls the apostasy the The falling away..
 
What does it take to believe Christians are going to leave before Jesus second coming? A Christian will need to avoid Daniel 12 to say that is no me. They will need to avoid Matt. 24: 15-31. That’s not me they say. They will need to say the last trumpet in 1Thess is not the seventh but another trumpet altogether. They will have to deny 2Thess 1-3. They will also need to avoid several chapters in Revelation.. .

So if this turns out to be a taken out of the way Gospel, it surly has leaving out much of the Bible in Prophecy. This is why I am Post Trib Rapture. There is nothing to hide.. I am able to bring Old Testament, New Testament and Revelation all at once to see the Prophetical time line that agree with one another.. If I believed in pre or mid trib I would have to walk very carefully not to slip into scriptures I would be afraid to expose.. but with Post Trib I have been able to work together with all other books and chapters in unison. The Bible after all is a collection of books yet a message as of one book to all believers..
 
Let's talk about some of these teachers that made the way for this early escape teaching. Hal Lindsay. He predicted back in the 80s of Jesus return. Finding out he was totally wrong. And now people are still relying on Hal Lindsay's timings of things.
2. Jack van Impe not only teaches Pre trib. He also teaches UFO's will be used by Demons flying in the Heavens making war against the Saints. Yes UFOs. I have seen his program a many number of times. 
3. Tim La Hayes. I used to belong to his support ministry to donate money each month. Then suddenly they came up with a rule that only those who donate 100 dollars or more will be able to receive all the News letters. . therefore my $25 or $40 a month was not enough for them to receive all New letters. When my fiancee read this she threw out all my New letters seeing that La Hayes is more about money than anything else. They also asked for stocks and sold vehicles. I used to have these on the letters they had sent to my mail box. So I am not making this up. .
They are among 3 that has led the way for Pre trib Rapture Theology. I can't even trust these guys. How then can I trust what they have brought to the center for us to believe also?. .
 
People want to believe in Pre or Mid trib a way to get out of here early. It makes a person feel more safe like they have some kind of insurance plan. But we will be here till the End of the age, the End of the trib just as the Bible told us. I will share more Bible scriptures on Post trib. 

[Fat]

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Fat, you say Post trib is about false religion? Well please let me share that when I used to be Pre trib Rapture that is exactly what they taught me. WPM (World Prophetic Ministries) accused Post trib of being of heretic false teaching. Because WPM said such things I had refused to even listen to no words on Post trib testimony. I did not allow Post trib a fair chance just because Tim La Hayes and others called this false teaching. .
 
Now I am glad I have read the Post trib view points. To me in my Biblical view Post trib makes more sense than Pre trib and mid trib Raptures. I have what I believe in my belief Biblical scripture to back up Post trib rapture.. Before you call this heresy you also accuse the Early American Christians who believed Jesus only returns once. So we were founded upon an Early Christian heretic nation?. It's funny that John Hagee suddenly wants us to take notice on Early America and suddenly adopt to a modern day Pre Trib Rapture Theology not espoused by Early Christians. . They tried to preserve the Truth. But over centuries the truthy became in many Churches watered down or what Jesus calls the apostasy the The falling away..
 
What does it take to believe Christians are going to leave before Jesus second coming? A Christian will need to avoid Daniel 12 to say that is no me. They will need to avoid Matt. 24: 15-31. That’s not me they say. They will need to say the last trumpet in 1Thess is not the seventh but another trumpet altogether. They will have to deny 2Thess 1-3. They will also need to avoid several chapters in Revelation.. .

So if this turns out to be a taken out of the way Gospel, it surly has leaving out much of the Bible in Prophecy. This is why I am Post Trib Rapture. There is nothing to hide.. I am able to bring Old Testament, New Testament and Revelation all at once to see the Prophetical time line that agree with one another.. If I believed in pre or mid trib I would have to walk very carefully not to slip into scriptures I would be afraid to expose.. but with Post Trib I have been able to work together with all other books and chapters in unison. The Bible after all is a collection of books yet a message as of one book to all believers..
 
Let's talk about some of these teachers that made the way for this early escape teaching. Hal Lindsay. He predicted back in the 80s of Jesus return. Finding out he was totally wrong. And now people are still relying on Hal Lindsay's timings of things.
2. Jack van Impe not only teaches Pre trib. He also teaches UFO's will be used by Demons flying in the Heavens making war against the Saints. Yes UFOs. I have seen his program a many number of times. 
3. Tim La Hayes. I used to belong to his support ministry to donate money each month. Then suddenly they came up with a rule that only those who donate 100 dollars or more will be able to receive all the News letters. . therefore my $25 or $40 a month was not enough for them to receive all New letters. When my fiancee read this she threw out all my New letters seeing that La Hayes is more about money than anything else. They also asked for stocks and sold vehicles. I used to have these on the letters they had sent to my mail box. So I am not making this up. .
They are among 3 that has led the way for Pre trib Rapture Theology. I can't even trust these guys. How then can I trust what they have brought to the center for us to believe also?. .
 
People want to believe in Pre or Mid trib a way to get out of here early. It makes a person feel more safe like they have some kind of insurance plan. But we will be here till the End of the age, the End of the trib just as the Bible told us. I will share more Bible scriptures on Post trib.

Fat, you say Post trib is about false religion?

Do you know the deference between doctrine and religion?

Let's talk about some of these teachers that made the way for this early escape teaching. Hal Lindsay. He predicted back in the 80s of Jesus return. Finding out he was totally wrong. And now people are still relying on Hal Lindsay's timings of things.
2. Jack van Impe not only teaches Pre trib. He also teaches UFO's will be used by Demons flying in the Heavens making war against the Saints. Yes UFOs. I have seen his program a many number of times.
3. Tim La Hayes. I used to belong to his support ministry to donate money each month. Then suddenly they came up with a rule that only those who donate 100 dollars or more will be able to receive all the News letters. . therefore my $25 or $40 a month was not enough for them to receive all New letters. When my fiancee read this she threw out all my New letters seeing that La Hayes is more about money than anything else. They also asked for stocks and sold vehicles. I used to have these on the letters they had sent to my mail box. So I am not making this up. .
They are among 3 that has led the way for Pre trib Rapture Theology. I can't even trust these guys. How then can I trust what they have brought to the center for us to believe also?. .

This is a bible discussion board not a Hal Lindsay discussion board.

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People want to believe in Pre or Mid trib a way to get out of here early. It makes a person feel more safe like they have some kind of insurance plan. But we will be here till the End of the age, the End of the trib just as the Bible told us. I will share more Bible scriptures on Post trib.

I actually see that as the opposite. It is the post tribulation people that want to give themselves 3 1/2 years advance notice before the coming of Christ so that they can get their house in order. Wouldn't that be nice, you can go out and play until you know for sure when Christ is coming.