Bible Talk > Eschatology

Your kind of Rapture or not

<< < (2/7) > >>

OlympicClimb12:
  Thanks for sharing this aspect of Revelation. These 2 Witnesses kind of scare me. I would not purposely want to be against them.  I kind of figured this was going to become a debate. Pre and post is the most often conflicted end time views with Mid trib in the mix to solve the solution who cant’ decide Pre or Post aspect.

Well I am not counting 1260 days alone. Now remember the 2 witnesses are killed at a specific moment therefore they won’t be here the 3 ½ years.
To understand the fulfillment of the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 we also must understand to bring Daniel 12 into the picture because it’s in Daniel 12 that explains exactly what happens in the last 3 ½ years. This chapter can also be understood with Matthew 24 side by side. See Daniel 12:1 matches Matthew 24:21. Now Daniel 12:2 matches Matthew 24:30-31. Then the rest of the verses in Daniel 12 shows us the picture between Matthew 24:15-31.

Lastly, if you connect these chapters with 1Thess.&2 Thess. Books the order of events will seem clearer.
When I compare these events in these 4 Books it’s in the same order.
First the falling away, man of perdition to be revealed, the 2nd Coming of Christ and the rapture happened after these things
according to 2Thess. 2:1-3.

Fat:

--- Quote from: OlympicClimb12 on January 28, 2014, 04:14:38 am ---  Thanks for sharing this aspect of Revelation. These 2 Witnesses kind of scare me. I would not purposely want to be against them.  I kind of figured this was going to become a debate. Pre and post is the most often conflicted end time views with Mid trib in the mix to solve the solution who cant’ decide Pre or Post aspect.

Well I am not counting 1260 days alone. Now remember the 2 witnesses are killed at a specific moment therefore they won’t be here the 3 ½ years.
To understand the fulfillment of the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 we also must understand to bring Daniel 12 into the picture because it’s in Daniel 12 that explains exactly what happens in the last 3 ½ years. This chapter can also be understood with Matthew 24 side by side. See Daniel 12:1 matches Matthew 24:21. Now Daniel 12:2 matches Matthew 24:30-31. Then the rest of the verses in Daniel 12 shows us the picture between Matthew 24:15-31.

Lastly, if you connect these chapters with 1Thess.&2 Thess. Books the order of events will seem clearer.
When I compare these events in these 4 Books it’s in the same order.
First the falling away, man of perdition to be revealed, the 2nd Coming of Christ and the rapture happened after these things
according to 2Thess. 2:1-3.

--- End quote ---

Two things come to mind when reading your post, first is you believe that the rapture and the second coming will happen at the same time, secondly that you are replacing the Jews with the church. I hope that you are not into replacement theology, I believe this is heresy.

If you believe that the rapture and the second coming of Christ are the same then your Bible has a conflict in it.


This is the rapture not the second coming, there is nothing here about Christ returning to Earth.

1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Cor 15:52  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet ; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Matthew 24:44 "For this reason you also must be ready ; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

Again take note of the tribulation rapture of the two witnesses you’ll see that they had been prophesying for 1260 days after the temple is rebuilt. You’re telling me that you won’t notice two guys turning water into blood or that something looking like the temple is standing in the middle of Jerusalem?


Rev 11:1 Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff ; and someone said, "Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. 2 "Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations ; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months. 3 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies ; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way. 6 These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying ; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire. 7 When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. 9 Those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate ; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth. 11 But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet ; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them. 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." Then they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them.

Like a thief in the night!

Sorry my friend on this point we must disagree, it is one point where the majority of Christians actually get it right.  ;D

OlympicClimb12:
Hi Fat I feel a little bit better now. I was tired and dizzy since yesterday. Now my neck and head kind of hurt but not to bad over all.

Well if you are Pre trib rapture and you say Post trib is not a true teaching you say that because you hold to the one view point which you believe to be more true than the other view. Because you know you can not be both Pre trib and Post trib at the same time. So in order to prove one of them is right is also to prove the other one is not . .

So in knowing this I want to let you know I am ‘Not’ personally attacking you. . Rather I must try if I can to show why I believe Post Trib is more of a correct view point than Pre trib rapture. Yet I apologize Fat because in this kind of debate it is difficult not to offend others. But as much as we don’t like to oppose even our friends we as Paul still need to stand for what we believe is being taught in God’s words. . I will try my best to be sportsman ship debate on this topic. I debate Pre trib. . Not words personally against you. So let us continue in this debate Pre and Post trib and anyone Mid trib. . Preterism would have to be in another thread itself since it is a complete different Biblical view point.

I began to learn about God in 1997 when I first started getting more serious to reading the Bible. I began to watch TBN on TV. I got a few books one from John Haggee the coming of the Antichrist. One from Pat Robertson the World order. Bruce and Stan End time for dummies. This I used to follow the WPM with Ed Hindson and Tim La Hayes with Thomas Ice.

But I was a follower back then. I used to believe every Church program on TV. I did not know the difference between Christian and Catholic Churches. . I thought Baptist and Pentecostal were the same thing.

In saying this I became Pre trib Rapture because that is only what I knew and heard. . while I read books and new letters I did not that much look up scriptures. I just believed what I was told. . I guess it was a bad habit not to look this up. But since they printed it on the page why look up what they already put in their letters?

On a certain forum some had challenged my Pre trib rapture views. Yeah I told them Jesus will return before the trib . and then bring the Church back 7 years later. What is you proof they asked? This is where I got in trouble. I actually did not know how to teach pre trib. So I just went to Rev 3:10. I said you know because of Noah's flood we can't be here. I could not protect myself. So I wrote to WPM where Tim La hayes was located. I told them look I am stuck on this posting forum . I am trying to defend pre trib rapture. Can you help me? They wrote me back and said they can't do that. They are not going to get involved on a minor posting board disagreement. To think I was going to get help from Tim La Hayes or Ed Hindson they had backed out. . So I was on my own. .

Then Bill said something did you know that Pre trib did not exist for centuries? I said what are you talking about? He said let me share with you some links. I just ended up deleting them. Come on you can’t prove Hal Lindsay Greg Laurie that they are wrong. So I kept defending pre trib even not being that well in the Bible at that time. .

Some time had passed and I was on another forum with all Pre ttrib believers. . they kept saying Jesus is going to be back soon. No matter a quake a war story they did not seem to care much except being Rapture. This is what got me to start reading in a new method. . I can’t just open the pages and scripture to believe them just because they told me. I must believe God first. So I must read every verse to take notice where God stands on these things. . after some study I then concluded I am now Post Trib Rapture. With the books I have read in the Bible I am not convinced of a seven year Early Rapture. .

Where does Jesus or Paul actually say and the Lord said seven years before the end will come the rapture? I began to use Matt 24 as an accurate testimony how these things should happen Dispensational understanding of God’s word. . That all other scriptures had to agree with the Olivet Discourse. Because you will notice Matt 24 is accurate and plain in language. I read all the way to verse fifteen. There is the abomination. Now where is the mention of this Pre trib Rapture? If it is not here in this testimony then there is already a great problem why Jesus would not mentioned it here..

So I read on to 1 and 2Thess. Please notice that 1 Thessalonians and 2 Thessalonians are 2 letters. It is a 2 part letter. . therefore to understand letter 1 I also read letter 2 for more explanation. . Because 1Thess 4:16-17 to be caught up with Jesus. . Notice this happens on the “Last Trumpet’.  What is the last Trumpet in Revelation? That is the Seventh Trumpet. So if this is the last trumpet that means it happens at the End of the age. . the End of age happens at the End of the 3 and a half great trib period.

The first 3 and a half were fulfilled when Jesus was here for 33 and a half years to understand Daniel 9 for this will be cut off but not for himself only. And the end shall come as a Flood and of desolation. So the last 3 and half year the Great trib happens as Noahs flood which is the Son of man coming in the clouds in his glory. So it is only the last 3 and half year that will fulfill this prophecy of Daniels 70 weeks..

Yet there will be a 42 months that proceeds before the great tribulation. This first 42 months brings forth the first Beast in Revelation. He is of world Nations represented by ten Rulers. These 10 will be the most powerful among the first Beast world unity. Then from ten shall come 2 horns He is the second Beast that will take over the first Beast. He will rule over all nations for 3 and a half years. . Rev 13. He will cause all small great free and slave to have a mark place on their right hand or forehead the number to this wisdom. .

Christians will be here during this time. And why is that? Because in 1Thess 1:4 they are gathered with Jesus. But this verse does not say they went up to the Third Heaven. Neither did it say they went down either. It only says they gathered with him and shall ever be with him. . It take 2Thess 2 to answer what took place in chapter 1 or letter 1. The Thess. church was trouble when the gathering to occur? First they were told those who died are a sleep and will be raised on the last day. . Now in chapter 2 Paul gets more specific in verses 1 2 and 3 saying.
 
Brethren do not be shaken or trouble in your mind. For the day of the Lord and the gathering to be with him shall be no means happen not even by any letter written by anyone. And neither by any spirit or angel. Do not let any man deceive you. For this can not happen until the apostacy happens first and then shall the man of perdition be revealed..

There we got. That is the answer. This is not a parable. This is not symbolic, metaphoric or allegory. This is plain words in simple language. Notice Paul says both the gathering and the day of the Lord can not happen till these 2 happen first. If it also says gathering along with the day of the Lord side by side how can we question this or change the order of this?. We were told not even to let any man deceive us telling us these events would be in another order. Notice also Paul doesn't say and first there shall be a rapture then apostasy and the man of perdtion?

But 2Thess 1-3 answers 1Thess 4:16-17 the very question they wanted to know when they day would occur. Therefore now see Daniel 9, Daniel 12, Mat 24, 1Thess and 2Thess all agree in the same time line. For even Daniel was asked when shall be the end of these things? So he is told of the abomination count 1335 days.

Now we are told this in Matthew. Matthew is New Testament books for all believers. Those who believe in Judaism does not read Matthew. . so neither do they read Revelation. Only Messianic Jews and Christians read the New Testament. The message of Mathew 24 is for both Messianic Jews and Christians alike. For the Bible says there is no difference of Jew and Gentile.
Romans 10:12
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.

So if there is no longer any difference Jesus has shown us believers what is to happen. The only way to be out of here is to exclude part of Matthew 24, part of 2Thess and most of Revelation. . that would be partial teaching. But as believers we need to believe God wrote these instructions for all of us. If you believe these New Testament books only apply to Jews and not to Christians or only to Christians and not to Messianic Jews then you have divided these groups. .

We will see both the Jews and Gentiles go into the seven year trib. Because the last trumpet is also the 7th. The seventh is the day Jesus returns. The wrath of God and the resurrection will occur on the same day. The Day of the Lord. Day is singular. Not multi returns. There can not be 2 seven trumpets and 2 last days. There is only one seven and 1 last day at the end of the trib to end of this age. So if Matthew 24 and 1Thess are 2 different trumpets then one needs to create a whole new trumpet not found in Revelation. Because we know Jesus appears in the clouds only on the last trumpet number seven.

Fat:
I am glad to read that you are up and around. I'm sure that the soreness will stay with you for some time. Hopefully the worst of it is over with and nothing but the good results remain.

Because you wanted to give me your background I thought I would returned in kind. I have been a Christian since the 1950s and I have found that if you're going to rely on somebody else's commentary of the Bible you should scrutinize it, ultimately comparing it with the actual written word. The Bible does not conflict with itself. When you use the trumpet analogy you should first find out if Paul's last trumpet  and John's seventh trumpet are the same. Now what if Matt 24 (a sermon for the Jews) is not addressing the rapture it is addressing the second coming? And yes we are told there will be Christians on the earth at that time. Zechariah 13:8 One third of Israel will remain faithful to Christ, part of that will be the 144,000. Is it possible that He is speaking of a second rapture for those that have endured the great tribulation (Revelation 7:14)?

I really do believe that your getting the second coming and the rapture confused. I posted verses for you that show it impossible for there to be a post tribulation rapture. I also told you that I'm divided between pre-and mid-rapture, either one being possible and conforming to the Scriptures. I do not want to restate my argument just to take up band space.

The rapture (John 14:1-3 Rev 3:10 1 Cor 15:51-54 1 Th 4:16-17) and the second coming (1 Th 5:2, 4  2 Th 2:2 ) are distinguished from each other.

Like a thief in the night!

OlympicClimb12:
Hi Fat thanks for welcoming me back. I kind of feel at home here because recently I was posting on a forum with lots of members and rooms. For me it was a bit difficult to keep up with 3 or 4 major debates happening in 1 day.. Plus the endless posters answers and trying to do research in between. . I wanted to be on a less crowed board like this one. However this place still may be good to add another 4 to 7 daily posters..

But as small as our group is now things are holding up pretty well so far. I would like to get more acquainted as friends with you and other members over time. I like to know people at least on a somewhat personal level instead of always posting among strangers at the large forums.. I have felt more relaxed over here being that I don't feel anyone is pushing me against my limits. After all I like to think in ‘ A Church’ thinking aspect Body of believers such as us here.

Ok so we don’t agree on every aspect. Well neither did the Disciples when Jesus was walking on the Earth with them. . consider some of the arguments they got into. Like who is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven? Or why is Jesus talking about yeast? What bread does He speak of? So if the disciples had issues, we not being any better why not us?. Even Paul led by the Holy Spirit said.

1 Corinthians 13:12 (NKJV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

You're probably not going to like this part here I am posting on this debate.. But to me this was an eye opener to consider of. Pre trib rapture to its origin is not known. But the writing found comes from the 19th century. It is said a woman named Margaret MacDonald was one of the first in her 117 line of Bible Prophecy to depict the Rapture and second coming as 2 separate events. Because in 1611 was the making of the Kings James Bible. Therefore the early Christians of America were more in line with Post trib view as today. . For they believed Jesus was only to return once. They did not believe in a separate Rapture event later 2 or 3 centuries born in the19th century.

I find it ironic the that other dangerous teachings began about that time also. The Latter Day Saints, the Jehovah's Witness Darwin and the Theory of Evolution. . Yes the 19th century has bore a lot of dangerous modern day teaching of today. Simple once I told a Mormon fried. How can you say the  truth suddenly was revealed in 18 something? Where was the truth before that?

post trib therefore goes further back in belief. Early Christians also tried to preserve our Christian heritage and practicing the Bible in ones daily life. Kids were allowed to take Bibles to school and read them out loud. And at home a young son may say Mama and Papa I have done work outside and I did my school work. Can I please go outside and play?. . The Papa says Yes my Son. You may go. But make sure you are home before sunset. And the Mother goes up to her son she grabs his coat to put it on him. She hugs her son before he goes. That was living the early Christian life with love in the family. While this is not always the case it was more likely to happen then than now. Look how family and children behave today. I therefore support and believe in more traditional Christian values and my support for Post trib which has been believe for centuries. As to what people believed in first century AD I know less about that age of people. .
 
I was recommended by a Church to consider more classic traditional Bible Books, concordances, and Bible commentaries. They told me much of today's 20th century and 21 has much been water down.. As I started doing this I seen why they said this.

I used to follow JV McGee a more modern day teacher. Now I was going back in the early days of Matthew Henry, Spurgeon or such those and others who Biblically to me made more sense than many of the more modern books we have today. After all Jesus did warn us of a falling away. The falling away happens later and not before. . So pretty much pre trib in my opinion is a modern day teaching.. . Perhaps to some this is or is not enough evidence to make one think. So I would also like to share this.

I’m going to use the illustration of the Heavenly body we call the moon. . One week looking outside at night time 4 days the moon can be seen. 3 days it it did  not appear. Every time the Moon appears in the atmosphere counts as one appearance. If I see the moon 4 times in one week in the atmosphere I say that is 4 appearances. The 3 other days the moon did not show itself I could not count a number. Notice then only by the moon being in the atmosphere yet in space seen on Earth we counted that number as 1 appearance each time we see the moon..
 
  In likewise let's consider Jesus on the Earth the first time. That is his first appearance with no doubt.. When Jesus ascended in the heaven the people were weeping. Then the angel said to them why is it that you weep? For the Lord will return in the same like manner as He left.. This is a promise that the way Jesus left in also the same like manner will he return. So if there was a separate Rapture several years before his second coming this would defy what the angel had said..

The angel did not say Jesus would first be gathering the people to return to Heaven and bring them years back later. . But simply as He left shall He also return. So if there is a rapture and a second coming we have to count that as 3 appearances. Because even if Jesus is in the atmosphere for a twinkling of an eye then the rapture would actually count as His second coming. The moon did not need to land on the Earth to prove its appearing. . The same holds with Jesus himself. . if Jesus can be seen even for a moment that counts as His appearing.
 
This is some of my understanding some thinking I have learned outside of just Bible scriptures. This is more to take in consideration. I am sorry and I apologize you probably don’t like to hear things like this I have posted here. . But remember I am not opposed or against you as a friend. . but I have been for the past 2 or 3 years working on Post trib and what I feel are the problems in Pre trib Rapture thinking.

Later or tomorrow I will share some more Bibcal aspect on Pre and Post trib comparisons of which I need to find a few scriptures I don’t have memorized at this moment.. Fat I hope this debate is not making you stressed out.. if you say Climber I have said and heard enough as I wanted to. If you should say this then I will stop this debate. . Because my intention is not to attack. I am trying to get people ready to those who are not aware of anything that is going on and those also who think we will not be here during that time..

I cant’ share this as a picnic. It's the kind of news I wish I had no responsibility. Please if only I can share good things. .Apparently though I feel if I stay silent then God will say how come you did not tell anyone about these times ahead?. So I share mostly because I feel I and others will answer to God what exactly was our calling here.. Whatever we know whatever talent God has given to each of us I don't prevent those from sharing. Even if we agree or disagree its everyone’s right to share our faith in God. Your friend RJ

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page