Bible discussion
Bible Talk => Sound doctrine => Topic started by: Jack Koons on July 08, 2013, 07:00:41 am
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For those of us that live in the "civilized" or "industrialized" world, not much thought needs to be spent on how we both hear the gospel, and receive His salvation; but, what about those millions of souls that live their entire lives, never having heard the gospel; has God ever, does God now, or will God ever have a plan for those people; other than to be born, live, die, and finally spend all of eternity in torment?
Jack
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For those of us that live in the "civilized" or "industrialized" world, not much thought needs to be spent on how we both hear the gospel, and receive His salvation; but, what about those millions of souls that live their entire lives, never having heard the gospel; has God ever, does God now, or will God ever have a plan for those people; other than to be born, live, die, and finally spend all of eternity in torment?
Every knee shall bow; some willingly, but most reluctantly. It is attitude to knee action that is the ultimate decider of eternal fate, irrespective of whether one has previously heard the gospel, or not. Every has the same choice to make, sooner or later.
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For those of us that live in the "civilized" or "industrialized" world, not much thought needs to be spent on how we both hear the gospel, and receive His salvation; but, what about those millions of souls that live their entire lives, never having heard the gospel; has God ever, does God now, or will God ever have a plan for those people; other than to be born, live, die, and finally spend all of eternity in torment?
Jack
Who on earth has not sinned and deserves to spend eternity with God?
Can a Just God not punish the unjust sinner?
Does your God ever break a promise?
John 14:6 NAS
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life ; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
Is there going to be a second chance for those that have not heard the gospel? I have no idea what God's plan is other then what he has written down for me to study.
Matthew 7:14 NAS
"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
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Every knee shall bow; some willingly, but most reluctantly. It is attitude to knee action that is the ultimate decider of eternal fate, irrespective of whether one has previously heard the gospel, or not. Every has the same choice to make, sooner or later.
"Every knee shall bow; some willingly, but most reluctantly. It is attitude to knee action that is the ultimate decider of eternal fate, irrespective of whether one has previously heard the gospel, or not. Every has the same choice to make, sooner or later."
1) "Every knee shall bow; some willingly, but most reluctantly."
I absolutely agree. Those that do so willingly, will do so both now, and at the Judgement Seat of Christ; whole those who do not will bow at the Great White Throne Judgement. Furthermore, I agree that judgement will be made irrespective of whether one has heard the gospel or not. However, believers have clearly been given a command:
Matt. 28:
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
This command by Jesus Christ clearly puts the responsibility of spreading the gospel to "all nations".
Furthermore:
Rom. 10
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
It is quite clear that while it is the responsibility of the "sinner" to "obey the gospel"; it is also quite clear that it is of a necessity that one must obey the commandment of being sent to preach the gospel, in order for the gospel to be first heard, and eventually obeyed.
What responsibility lies upon the preacher that disobeys the command to go and preach, resulting in the gospel not being preached (meaning the gospel is not therefore heard, and ultimately not obeyed)?
Jack
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It is quite clear that while it is the responsibility of the "sinner" to "obey the gospel"; it is also quite clear that it is of a necessity that one must obey the commandment of being sent to preach the gospel, in order for the gospel to be first heard, and eventually obeyed.
What responsibility lies upon the preacher that disobeys the command to go and preach, resulting in the gospel not being preached (meaning the gospel is not therefore heard, and ultimately not obeyed)?
Good question. The preacher or evangelist who, like Jonah, disobeys his conscience must be responsible for the evils that result from absence of the gospel, and absence of the resulting good works that are intended to be like a city on a hill, that cannot be hidden. That's quite a responsibility.
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What responsibility lies upon the preacher that disobeys the command to go and preach, resulting in the gospel not being preached (meaning the gospel is not therefore heard, and ultimately not obeyed)?
If you do not preach are you really a preacher? Would it be better to use the word disciple? Isn't the great commission in given to all of Christ disciples?
Hal
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If you do not preach are you really a preacher? Would it be better to use the word disciple? Isn't the great commission in given to all of Christ disciples?
Hal
Hello Hal,
Actually I was trying to stay 'contextually' correct.
Romans 10: 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Jack
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Quote from: Jack Koons on Today at 09:00:41 AM
For those of us that live in the "civilized" or "industrialized" world, not much thought needs to be spent on how we both hear the gospel, and receive His salvation; but, what about those millions of souls that live their entire lives, never having heard the gospel; has God ever, does God now, or will God ever have a plan for those people; other than to be born, live, die, and finally spend all of eternity in torment?
Jack
Zant Law stated:
"Who on earth has not sinned and deserves to spend eternity with God?
Can a Just God not punish the unjust sinner?
Does your God ever break a promise?"
John 14:6 NAS
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life ; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
"Is there going to be a second chance for those that have not heard the gospel? I have no idea what God's plan is other then what he has written down for me to study."
Matthew 7:14 NAS
"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Zant,
"Who on earth has not sinned and deserves to spend eternity with God?"
The obvious answer is, no one.
"Can a Just God not punish the unjust sinner?"
The obvious answer is, yes.
"Does your God ever break a promise?"
The obvious answer is, no.
"Is there going to be a second chance for those that have not heard the gospel?"
I believe the Bible clearly teaches, there is no "second chance".
"I have no idea what God's plan is other then what he has written down for me to study."
Zant, thank you for your honesty in stating that you, "have no idea what God's plan is other then what he has written down for me to study". The truth of the matter Zant, is that it's not the people that haven't heard that are at question; but rather, what is the 1) responsibility of the Christian that does not obey the command of God to A) preach the gospel at all; or B) preaches a false gospel; such as 1. Partaking of the Eucharist; 2. Baptismal Regeneration; or 3. Speaking in tongues, in order to be saved; resulting in the sinner either not hearing the gospel at all, or hearing a false gospel (which is even more dangerous to the sinner [causing the sinner to have a false hope]), in either case leaving the sinner without the gospel witness the Christian was commanded to give; and 2) what is the consequence to the Christian for his or her disobedience to God's command?
God has clearly given a command to all Christians, (with the purpose in mind of the getting out of the gospel), and quite clearly there is disobedience to this command; resulting in the rather problematic situation of the gospel not being preached.
Jack
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"Who on earth has not sinned and deserves to spend eternity with God?"
The obvious answer is, no one.
Agreed.
"Can a Just God not punish the unjust sinner?"
The obvious answer is, yes.
Scripture please.
"Does your God ever break a promise?"
The obvious answer is, no.
Agreed
"Is there going to be a second chance for those that have not heard the gospel?"
I believe the Bible clearly teaches, there is no "second chance".
According to Christ words salvation must come through him. I don't see a second chance being taught in the Scriptures, however I cannot see that the gospel will be denied to all in the future.
Zant, thank you for your honesty in stating that you, "have no idea what God's plan is other then what he has written down for me to study". The truth of the matter Zant, is that it's not the people that haven't heard that are at question; but rather, what is the 1) responsibility of the Christian that does not obey the command of God to A) preach the gospel at all; or B) preaches a false gospel; such as 1. Partaking of the Eucharist; 2. Baptismal Regeneration; or 3. Speaking in tongues, in order to be saved; resulting in the sinner either not hearing the gospel at all, or hearing a false gospel (which is even more dangerous to the sinner [causing the sinner to have a false hope]), in either case leaving the sinner without the gospel witness the Christian was commanded to give; and 2) what is the consequence to the Christian for his or her disobedience to God's command?
God has clearly given a command to all Christians, (with the purpose in mind of the getting out of the gospel), and quite clearly there is disobedience to this command; resulting in the rather problematic situation of the gospel not being preached.
Question, are the people you're speaking of here, that call themselves Christians, are they really Christians?
John 14:15 NAS
"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Matthew 7:20 NAS
18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits. 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles ?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
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Zant,
As per your question:
"Can a Just God not punish the unjust sinner?"
My meaning of "yes", was indicating that God CAN punish the unjust sinner; I certainly hope we agree.
As per:
"Question, are the people you're speaking of here, that call themselves Christians, are they really Christians?"
John 14:15 NAS
"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments."
Consider the following:
1 John 3:
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Here sin is defined as the transgression of the law. Of course we know that the law is a collection of God's commandments. With this is mind please consider:
1 John 1:
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Even the Apostle Paul by inspiration of God penned:
1 Tim 1:
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Please notice the last three words above: "I am chief". That is 'present' tense, not 'past' tense, as in, "I was chief".
So when Jesus said,
John 14:15 NAS
"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." This cannot be "absolute", but rather, something we seek with our heart.
Also keep in mind:
James 2:
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in onepoint, he is guilty of all.
So Zant, unless you're a Nazarene that has reached "entire sanctification" (sinless perfection), you're just a Hell deserving sinner, saved by grace like the rest of us.
Jack
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For those of us that live in the "civilized" or "industrialized" world, not much thought needs to be spent on how we both hear the gospel, and receive His salvation; but, what about those millions of souls that live their entire lives, never having heard the gospel; has God ever, does God now, or will God ever have a plan for those people; other than to be born, live, die, and finally spend all of eternity in torment?
Jack
So what about those people, Jack?
So Zant, unless you're a Nazarene that has reached "entire sanctification" (sinless perfection), you're just a Hell deserving sinner, saved by grace like the rest of us.
Jack
Does God have a plan for 'those people'? It's called Hell, which you say they deserve.
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Quote from: Jack's OP
For those of us that live in the "civilized" or "industrialized" world, not much thought needs to be spent on how we both hear the gospel, and receive His salvation; but, what about those millions of souls that live their entire lives, never having heard the gospel; has God ever, does God now, or will God ever have a plan for those people; other than to be born, live, die, and finally spend all of eternity in torment?
Jack
So what about those people, Jack?
Quote from: Answer
So Zant, unless you're a Nazarene that has reached "entire sanctification" (sinless perfection), you're just a Hell deserving sinner, saved by grace like the rest of us.
Jack
Zant, you said,
"Does God have a plan for 'those people'? It's called Hell, which you say they deserve."
You just put yourself in a separate category from 'those people' which deserve Hell, with the use of the word "those". The question is do you now 'deserve' Heaven because of the righteousness of Christ?
Jack
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Quote from: Jack's OP
For those of us that live in the "civilized" or "industrialized" world, not much thought needs to be spent on how we both hear the gospel, and receive His salvation; but, what about those millions of souls that live their entire lives, never having heard the gospel; has God ever, does God now, or will God ever have a plan for those people; other than to be born, live, die, and finally spend all of eternity in torment?
Jack
So what about those people, Jack?
Quote from: Answer
So Zant, unless you're a Nazarene that has reached "entire sanctification" (sinless perfection), you're just a Hell deserving sinner, saved by grace like the rest of us.
Jack
Zant, you said,
"Does God have a plan for 'those people'? It's called Hell, which you say they deserve."
You just put yourself in a separate category from 'those people' which deserve Hell, with the use of the word "those". The question is do you now 'deserve' Heaven because of the righteousness of Christ?
Jack
Jack you already answered that question.
So Zant, unless you're a Nazarene that has reached "entire sanctification" (sinless perfection), you're just a Hell deserving sinner, saved by grace like the rest of us.
Do you understand Grace Jack? Are you just using words because you heard them in class?
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Yes, I answered it; but you have failed to confess it.
Jack
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Yes, I answered it; but you have failed to confess it.
Jack
Oh Jack, it is wise to make a statement like that.
ZLaw
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Zant,
I want you to know my motive here. I mean no one any disrespect. It is not my intention to accuse anyone of anything.
When I say I know I deserve to go to Hell, I am simply telling the truth. That is what makes "grace" so wonderful! I have received, and continue to receive His wonderful grace! Year by year, day by day, minute by minute, and sometimes in my darkest hour, second by second! God has given me what I do not deserve, Eternal Life; and through His grace He has given me something more, His mercy. In that mercy He has withheld His righteous hand of judgement, not sending me to Hell as I deserve. His mercies are new every morning! All this He gives me by His gracious love!
Is it wise to say I deserve He'll? Absolutely! Anything else would be a lie. Do I understand grace you ask? I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but because I see the greatness of my sin, I therefore see that His grace is greater.
Jack
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Zant,
I want you to know my motive here. I mean no one any disrespect. It is not my intention to accuse anyone of anything.
When I say I know I deserve to go to Hell, I am simply telling the truth. That is what makes "grace" so wonderful! I have received, and continue to receive His wonderful grace! Year by year, day by day, minute by minute, and sometimes in my darkest hour, second by second! God has given me what I do not deserve, Eternal Life; and through His grace He has given me something more, His mercy. In that mercy He has withheld His righteous hand of judgement, not sending me to Hell as I deserve. His mercies are new every morning! All this He gives me by His gracious love!
Is it wise to say I deserve He'll? Absolutely! Anything else would be a lie. Do I understand grace you ask? I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but because I see the greatness of my sin, I therefore see that His grace is greater.
Jack
I think it was you who said you were adopted, were you old enough to have a say in your adoption?
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"I think it was you who said you were adopted, were you old enough to have a say in your adoption?"
Actually, I said I was a foster child. But you raise an interesting point. To make a long story short, I was placed into the foster home my upbringing at the age of 18 months, and remained there until just after graduating from High School at 18 years old.
At about the age of 9 years old my dad called me off to the side and asked me if I would like to be adopted? My first reaction was to ask him about problems that my biological parents might present. (Yes, even at that age us foster kids were at least somewhat aware of the issues relating to their biological parents.) I'll never forget my dad's response when I said, "Yes"! (He had already knelt down on one knee to talk to me 'face to face'.) He smiled, kissed me on the forehead, and said, "Don't worry about it, I'll take care of everything".
He ran into issues he was not able to overcome, but that didn't matter! I found out that day how much he loved me! Over the years I came to the realization that not all kids want to be adopted. My foster parents have all of us the same opportunities; but we did not all respond the same to those opportunities.
Take the twelve apostles for example. Did Jesus love Peter, James, and John more than the others? I don't think so. It was not a matter of just how much Jesus loved them; but how much love they returned to Jesus, that put them in the 'inner circle'. Likewise within the 'inner circle', it was John that made it a point to be at the Saviour's side.
God offers the same love to all, we do not all choose to accept it. God's law gives us the opportunity to show our love for Him to the world; it is our choice whether to obey it or not.
Jack
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So you really didn't have a choice of who brought you up to adulthood. Whatever the situation is that separated you from your father it apparently happened without your consent. And I imagine that the foster family did not have to take you in, but chose to do so, the choice was not yours. From what I understand, at least in our area, foster parents get paid for raising the children. Is for you to decide if the choice they made was a blessing to you or detriment.
I believe that there was another choice made for you before the foundation of the earth, without your knowledge or consent, that will bless you for eternity. I'm not going to highlight these verses Jack, so that they can be read in context as written down for us to understand.
You made the statement on another thread, "I let the scriptures interpret themselves."
Ephesians 1 KJV
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved . In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance , being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed , ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened ; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe , according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named , not only in this world, but also in that which is to come : And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Nothing should be treated with more honor and reverence than the Word of God; because it both is, and contains the Law of God.
Yet, Origin, Constantine, Semler, and Metzger, all used interpretation and "intellectual" logic to twist and tear away the Holy Scriptures. The good news is that irregardless of the hundreds of attempts by Satan (and those he influences to do his work), to destroy God's word, it remains.
ZLaw
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"So you really didn't have a choice of who brought you up to adulthood. Whatever the situation is that separated you from your father it apparently happened without your consent. And I imagine that the foster family did not have to take you in, but chose to do so, the choice was not yours. From what I understand, at least in our area, foster parents get paid for raising the children. Is for you to decide if the choice they made was a blessing to you or detriment."
I stated previously:
"Over the years I came to the realization that not all kids want to be adopted. My foster parents have all of us the same opportunities; but we did not all respond the same to those opportunities. "
Some of the foster children did in fact choose not to live in the home I lived in. (I think they made a bad choice, but it was theirs to make.)
By not agreeing with you on your understanding of scripture, does not imply that I am treating the scripture with disrespect.
You also have sidestepped the issue of Christians being responsible for disobeying the command of God to go into all nations, resulting in people not hearing the gospel.
Jack
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"So you really didn't have a choice of who brought you up to adulthood. Whatever the situation is that separated you from your father it apparently happened without your consent. And I imagine that the foster family did not have to take you in, but chose to do so, the choice was not yours. From what I understand, at least in our area, foster parents get paid for raising the children. Is for you to decide if the choice they made was a blessing to you or detriment."
I stated previously:
"Over the years I came to the realization that not all kids want to be adopted. My foster parents have all of us the same opportunities; but we did not all respond the same to those opportunities. "
Some of the foster children did in fact choose not to live in the home I lived in. (I think they made a bad choice, but it was theirs to make.)
By not agreeing with you on your understanding of scripture, does not imply that I am treating the scripture with disrespect.
You also have sidestepped the issue of Christians being responsible for disobeying the command of God to go into all nations, resulting in people not hearing the gospel.
Jack
I sidestepped the issue! This is the issue Jack what does it say?
You made the statement on another thread, "I let the scriptures interpret themselves."
Ephesians 1 KJV
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved . In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance , being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed , ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened ; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe , according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named , not only in this world, but also in that which is to come : And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Or could it be that the Scriptures are not sufficient for you?
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The topic of this thread is, "What about those who have never heard the gospel"? It is God who has given us the command to go proclaim the gospel. But not all Christians obey this command,resulting is having some people who have never heard the gospel. What is the responsibility, and consequence of this disobedience?
That is the topic you have been evading at all cost.
Jack
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The topic of this thread is, "What about those who have never heard the gospel"? It is God who has given us the command to go proclaim the gospel. But not all Christians obey this command,resulting is having some people who have never heard the gospel. What is the responsibility, and consequence of this disobedience?
Surely, those who disobey the Holy Spirit for very long are unlikely to be Christians. God brought Jonah back to do his job, and he does likewise with all his own, sooner or later. Those who stubbornly refuse are for that reason apostates.
There are few today who have not heard or read the gospel, certainly in Western countries, especially in the USA, where the uniquely religious origin and history of that country is, for some, an obsession. So the need to evangelise is not necessary, in many parts of the world. As in the West, Latin America has many 'evangelists' who pervert the gospel, but at least it is there. Africa is aware of the gospel, perhaps more than most continents. Even in China, where Christianity has been discouraged, the gospel is well known. It is only in sharia countries and in the remotest parts that people can be found who are unaware that Christ died for them.
If the gospel is to be believed, it must be lived, because it is 'caught, not taught'. The best evangelisation today is preaching by example. What is needed is not so much evangelists as those whose fruits of patience, willingness to forgive, kindness and humility quietly attract attention, and prompt others to ask them to 'give the reason for the hope that you have'. Which reason is of course the gospel. As Peter added, there will be slander against those of good behaviour, because it shames those who are being destroyed. But those who truly love God in Jesus will not be deterred by this.
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"There are few today who have not heard or read the gospel, certainly in Western countries, especially in the USA, where the uniquely religious origin and history of that country is, for some, an obsession. So the need to evangelise is not necessary, in many parts of the world. As in the West, Latin America has many 'evangelists' who pervert the gospel, but at least it is there. Africa is aware of the gospel, perhaps more than most continents. Even in China, where Christianity has been discouraged, the gospel is well known. It is only in sharia countries and in the remotest parts that people can be found who are unaware that Christ died for them."
Calluna,
There are two things in the above statement I would like to address:
1) "evangelism is not necessary". Again, Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. It is not up to us to determine wether or not ANY part of the globe needs to be evangelized; the command is clear: "GO"! Do we really have the right to look up at God and say, "There is no more need". Did God not say, "Occupy till I come". (Luke 19:13)
2) " As in the West, Latin America has many 'evangelists' who pervert the gospel, but at least it is there."
Gal. 1
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Satan would rather people have a perverted gospel, than no gospel. Why? Because people who trust in a false gospel have no idea that the gospel they are trusting in is perverted. When people know they haven't heard the truth, they ate more driven to search for it once the initial idea of a truth has been sparked.
I know I'm going to get in trouble for what I am about to say, but the truth is what it is. The largest so-called "Christian" denomination is the Church of Rome. The problem however, is that Catholic doctrine is a perverted gospel. Its foundation is the Eucharist and the doctrine of transubstantiation. Why did Wycliffe fight this doctrine with all his might? Because he knew it was a perverted gospel. Why did Luther pen his thesis against indulgences? It to was a false gospel. Hence, the breath of God speaks to the Apostle Paul and he penned these words of warning to the Galatians. Are these words any less true today, No.
Not only is evangelism necessary, but a lifestyle that supports that gospel is necessary as well.
The command has been given.
Jack
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The topic of this thread is, "What about those who have never heard the gospel"? It is God who has given us the command to go proclaim the gospel. But not all Christians obey this command,resulting is having some people who have never heard the gospel. What is the responsibility, and consequence of this disobedience?
That is the topic you have been evading at all cost.
Jack
OK Jack we'll do it backward for you and attack the last half first.
John 14:15 KJV If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Matthew 28:19 KJV Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Either you love Christ or you don't.
Now Jack can you see a way to salvation other than what has been given to us in Scripture? If not the answer to your question is, they will got to hell.
I am out of here Jack, you run from the Scripture like most Arminians.
P.S. the Church of Rome can be found in Rev 17
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"There are few today who have not heard or read the gospel, certainly in Western countries, especially in the USA, where the uniquely religious origin and history of that country is, for some, an obsession. So the need to evangelise is not necessary, in many parts of the world. As in the West, Latin America has many 'evangelists' who pervert the gospel, but at least it is there. Africa is aware of the gospel, perhaps more than most continents. Even in China, where Christianity has been discouraged, the gospel is well known. It is only in sharia countries and in the remotest parts that people can be found who are unaware that Christ died for them."
Calluna,
There are two things in the above statement I would like to address:
1) "evangelism is not necessary".
It is surely completely redundant, if it is felt necessary to misquote.
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Calluna,
The entire sentence written was, "So the need to evangelise is not necessary, in many parts of the world."
With people moving around in the world as much as they are today, you have no absolute way to know who has, or hasn't heard what. Unless of course you can give me a scripture reference stating we are no longer obligated to go to a specific region? That was the intent of your statement, was it not?
Jack
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Zant stated:
"OK Jack we'll do it backward for you and attack the last half first.
John 14:15 KJV If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Matthew 28:19 KJV Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Either you love Christ or you don't.
Now Jack can you see a way to salvation other than what has been given to us in Scripture? If not the answer to your question is, they will got to hell.
I am out of here Jack, you run from the Scripture like most Arminians.
P.S. the Church of Rome can be found in Rev 17"
Well Zant,
Let's deal with this:
"John 14:15 KJV If ye love me, keep my commandments."
For this verse you stated:
"Either you love Christ or you don't."
1 John 3
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
The law made up of the commandments. So what your saying is, "Either you love Christ or you don't"; which means, if you keep "all" of the commandments, you love Christ; or if you don't keep "all" the commandments, you don't.
1 John 1
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
James 2
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in onepoint, he is guilty of all.
Now Zant, you said, "Either you love Christ or you don't".
So either you keep "all" the commandments, or you don't.
You are presented with two problems: 1) say you keep "all" the commandments, and are without sin (showing that you are 'deceiving yourself, and the truth is not in you [1 John 1:8]); or, say that you only offend in one point (or maybe two), and then you end up being guilty of all (James 2:10).
So you're left in a position where either there is no truth in you, or you're a sinner: all to avoid one question: what is the responsibility of not obeying God command to go present the gospel, or what is the consequence of disobedience of the Christian?
"Matthew 28:19 KJV Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"
To which you said:
"Now Jack can you see a way to salvation other than what has been given to us in Scripture? If not the answer to your question is, they will got to hell."
Romans 10
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
This text is very clear; the text presents the working of salvation in reverse order, working from salvation backward:
1) For whosoever shall call upon The Lord shall be saved.
2) They cannot call unless they believe.
3) They cannot believe if they have not heard.
4) They cannot hear without a preacher.
5) The preacher canning preach, unless he is sent.
And what is he preaching?
Eph. 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
6) Not all that hear the "preached" gospel believe. (They must choose to believe, or not believe.)
The conclusion:
7) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Zant, there are the scriptures.
Then you said:
"I am out of here Jack, you run from the Scripture like most Arminians.
P.S. the Church of Rome can be found in Rev 17"
I just presented scriptures, you never answered my questioned, What is the consequence of disobeying God in not going and preaching the gospel, causing people not to hear the gospel, resulting in them not being able to be saved?
The Catholic Church is known as the Catholic Church, (you can Google it for yourself if you want to).
Jack
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Calluna,
The entire sentence written was, "So the need to evangelise is not necessary, in many parts of the world."
So why make up a comment of your own, and put it into quote marks?
Due to the supportive presence of criminals lingering here, you will doubtless remain yourself. But you will have no credibility with others.
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Calluna,
I admit that I ACCIDENTALLY misquoted you, because rather than do a "cut and paste", I actually tried to quote you from memory.
My misquote was, "evangelism is not necessary"; the actual statement was,
"So the need to evangelise is not necessary, in many parts of the world."
With that said, I believe an explanation (from you) concerning the justification of your actual statement:
"So the need to evangelise is not necessary, in many parts of the world."
1) Exactly what part of the world is "the need to evangelize" "not necessary"?
2) What scripture reference do you have to justify this statement?
Jack
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All will be given the chance to be a Son and or Daughter of God. In Rev Ch 20: we are told that the rest or the dead will be resurrected after the 1000 years are finished. That will be those who have not had a chance at salvation and they will be resurrected to a physical state and given the opportunity to accept Gods way and then be changed to His Spiritual sons and or daughters.
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For those of us that live in the "civilized" or "industrialized" world, not much thought needs to be spent on how we both hear the gospel, and receive His salvation; but, what about those millions of souls that live their entire lives, never having heard the gospel; has God ever, does God now, or will God ever have a plan for those people; other than to be born, live, die, and finally spend all of eternity in torment?
Jack
I fully disagree with your assumption "not much needs to be spent on how we both hear the gospel, and receive His salvation".
For isn't it the fact that a false doctrine of salvation was introduced during the apostle's era of ministry which has resulted in making it true that very few ever find the gate into God's kingdom? Your assumption is what you've heard is the same as the message for salvation those men stated. I don't think so in regard to this pertinent fact. In Jn. 16:8, the Lord says that the objective of the gospel message is for the sole purpose of convicting the world of guilt in regard to sin AFTER the fact of his crucifixion. However in this era the objective of the message for salvation is the opposite. Stating that it is only by Jesus having been crucified; guilt relative to sin has already been resolved. You need to spend your time resolving this dichotomy before you concern yourself with everybody else.
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I fully disagree with your assumption "not much needs to be spent on how we both hear the gospel, and receive His salvation".
For isn't it the fact that a false doctrine of salvation was introduced during the apostle's era of ministry which has resulted in making it true that very few ever find the gate into God's kingdom? Your assumption is what you've heard is the same as the message for salvation those men stated. I don't think so in regard to this pertinent fact. In Jn. 16:8, the Lord says that the objective of the gospel message is for the sole purpose of convicting the world of guilt in regard to sin AFTER the fact of his crucifixion. However in this era the objective of the message for salvation is the opposite. Stating that it is only by Jesus having been crucified; guilt relative to sin has already been resolved. You need to spend your time resolving this dichotomy before you concern yourself with everybody else.
Acts 16:29-31
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
29 Then the jailer called for lights, rushed in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he escorted them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
He did not say believe of but on or in depending on your translation. You must understand the deference.
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Acts 16:29-31
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
29 Then the jailer called for lights, rushed in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he escorted them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
He did not say believe of but on or in depending on your translation. You must understand the deference.
According to Jesus Christ there are only a very few persons that ever find the gate into God's kingdom. "Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and all the others in his house." Acts 16:32 What do you think they said?
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According to Jesus Christ there are only a very few persons that ever find the gate into God's kingdom. "Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and all the others in his house." Acts 16:32 What do you think they said?
To both Jews and Greeks:
Acts 20:21
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To both Jews and Greeks:
Acts 20:21
Repentance of what sin? Also the word 'word' in Acts 16:32 is referencing a word or singular word. What word?
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Repentance of what sin? Also the word 'word' in Acts 16:32 is referencing a word or singular word. What word?
Let me answer for JB on this. He must be getting tired of your juvenile antics.
What word???? Are you serious???
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Have you only repented for some of your sins Rev.? If so you're in deep dodo.
Have a nice day.
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Let me answer for JB on this. He must be getting tired of your juvenile antics.
What word???? Are you serious???
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Have you only repented for some of your sins Rev.? If so you're in deep dodo.
Have a nice day.
Repentance of what sin? Yes I am serious. Answer the question.
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For those of us that live in the "civilized" or "industrialized" world, not much thought needs to be spent on how we both hear the gospel, and receive His salvation; but, what about those millions of souls that live their entire lives, never having heard the gospel; has God ever, does God now, or will God ever have a plan for those people; other than to be born, live, die, and finally spend all of eternity in torment?
Jack
I was born again many years before I ever heard the gospel preached, or even read a bible. Although I was of non christian parents, I met the Holy Spirit alone in my bedroom. I know I was born again at that time. The Lord spoke clearly to me again as a teenager, giving me revelations and scriptural truth. He even told me that he didn't live in the church, but in my heart. It was probably ten years from that occasion that I first heard the gospel.
I know that I know that I know I knew God. I just didn't know the why and the how till my mid20s.
Romans1v18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.…
This makes it clear that all men have the seed of truth within them. That they can surrender to God's sovereignty at any time.
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What about all the millions who have died since Adam was put on the earth, along with many today who still have never heard of the Gospel? Well, this is what the 'second chance' for 'all' mankind is all about!
Once Adam had transgressed in the Garden of Eden, he and Eve along with all unborn mankind in its imperfection came under the sentence of death. But Almighty God realizing that the real instigator was Satan has decided to give all mankind a second chance to stand once more before him in a state of perfection at the end of the Sabbath Millennium.
God in his loving kindness today, will not judge imperfect man by his own perfect Law; so while at the moment all of us remain 'dead' in God's eyes as Jesus confirmed when he said to one who was about to become one of his 'little flock' "Let the dead bury the dead, you follow me." the provision of Christ's Millennial Rule will enable all during the general earthly resurrection to be brought up to perfection while at the same time understanding what this provision is all about.
At the end of this period, those who this time of their own cognizance, remain faithful to God when Satan who will have been bound for this period, is released for a short period to once more deceive the nations; will therefor receive everlasting life on earth under global paradisaical conditions as first intended. Those who still adamantly follow Satan will along with him perish in the 'second death'! (Revelation 21:8)
One cannot be in danger of the 'second death' until resurrected from the first death.
So in the end there will be no one on earth who will not have received a full understanding of God's will and purpose.
Alexander