Bible discussion
Bible Talk => General => Topic started by: theMadJW on April 27, 2013, 02:56:05 pm
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Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, Islam, Hinduism, etc.
Hell means only "Grave, pit" in the ancient Hebrew and Greek.
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We report you decide.
Greek
geenna
Hell is the place of the future punishment call "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.
Hebrew
lwaX
sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit
a. the underworld
b. Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
1. place of no return
2. without praise of God
3. wicked sent there for punishment
4. righteous not abandoned to it
5. of the place of exile (fig)
6. of extreme degradation in sin
Deuteronomy 32:22 KJV
For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
NEW WORLD TRANSLATION OF THE HOLY SCRIPTURES
Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire has been ignited in my anger
And it will burn down to She′ol, the lowest place,
And it will consume the earth and its produce
And will set ablaze the foundations of mountains.
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You use faulty references.
Gehenna was NOT the Greek word for Hell.
And sheol ONLY meant "grave and pit"- except for later RELIGIOUS meanings that developed. TheGreek word Hades was used as its equivalent, altho in Greek religionj, too, it had extra false meanings.
thus you how shown either ignorance or deception.
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You use faulty references.
Gehenna was NOT the Greek word for Hell.
And sheol ONLY meant "grave and pit"- except for later RELIGIOUS meanings that developed. TheGreek word Hades was used as its equivalent, altho in Greek religionj, too, it had extra false meanings.
thus you how shown either ignorance or deception.
It is your bible I quoted not mine.
NEW WORLD TRANSLATION OF THE HOLY SCRIPTURES
Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire has been ignited in my anger
And it will burn down to She′ol, the lowest place,
And it will consume the earth and its produce
And will set ablaze the foundations of mountains.
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You use faulty references.
Gehenna was NOT the Greek word for Hell.
And sheol ONLY meant "grave and pit"- except for later RELIGIOUS meanings that developed. TheGreek word Hades was used as its equivalent, altho in Greek religionj, too, it had extra false meanings.
thus you how shown either ignorance or deception.
Matthew 5:22 NAS
"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court ; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court ; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
Matthew 5:22 NWT However, I say to YOU that everyone who continues wrathful with his brother will be accountable to the court of justice; but whoever addresses his brother with an unspeakable word of contempt will be accountable to the Supreme Court; whereas whoever says, ‘You despicable fool!’ will be liable to the fiery Ge‧hen′na.
GEE WHAT DO YOU KNOW BB WAS RIGHT!!!!
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Matthew 5:22 NAS
"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court ; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court ; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
Matthew 5:22 NWT However, I say to YOU that everyone who continues wrathful with his brother will be accountable to the court of justice; but whoever addresses his brother with an unspeakable word of contempt will be accountable to the Supreme Court; whereas whoever says, ‘You despicable fool!’ will be liable to the fiery Ge‧hen′na.
GEE WHAT DO YOU KNOW BB WAS RIGHT!!!!
Gehenna was not referred to there, and his anger was OFTEN referred to as Fire, since fire was used to destroy.
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Gehenna was not referred to there, and his anger was OFTEN referred to as Fire, since fire was used to destroy.
The NAS is a VERY poor translation- and is wrong there, as in many places.
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(http://i875.photobucket.com/albums/ab315/MadMag/Hellfire/Blaspheme_zps76e371c2.jpg) (http://s875.photobucket.com/user/MadMag/media/Hellfire/Blaspheme_zps76e371c2.jpg.html)
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Gehenna was not referred to there, and his anger was OFTEN referred to as Fire, since fire was used to destroy.
Me thinks Phat is quoting your NWT and you're saying it is wrong in it's translation? Or is it you the Watchtower has made up a second Hell?
Matt 5:27“YOU heard that it was said, ‘You must not commit adultery.’28But I say to YOU that everyone that keeps on looking at a woman so as to have a passion for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.29If, now, that right eye of yours is making you stumble, tear it out and throw it away from you. For it is more beneficial to you for one of your members to be lost to you than for your whole body to be pitched into Ge‧hen′na.30Also, if your right hand is making you stumble, cut it off and throw it away from you. For it is more beneficial to you for one of your members to be lost than for your whole body to land in Ge‧hen′na. (NWT)
Matthew 10:28 NAS
"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul ; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt 5:28 NWT
And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge‧hen′na
This is a good one.
Matthew 23:15 NAS
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte ; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
Matthew 23:15 NWT
“Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU traverse sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one YOU make him a subject for Ge‧hen′na twice as much so as yourselves.
What's with the pictures? Do they hold some sort of persuasive power that over rides the bible to you?
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BB, you just don't GET it: "Hell" is a DELIBERATE mistranslation of Gehenna.
Gehenna was the valley just outside the walls of Jerusalem where they used sulphur to keep fires going to destroy garbage.
Thus , if you think "DESTRUCTION" when you read Gehenna- you will UNDERSTAND what Jesus was illustrating.
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BB, you just don't GET it: "Hell" is a DELIBERATE mistranslation of Gehenna.
Gehenna was the valley just outside the walls of Jerusalem where they used sulphur to keep fires going to destroy garbage.
Thus , if you think "DESTRUCTION" when you read Gehenna- you will UNDERSTAND what Jesus was illustrating.
Whatever JW's want to call it even your scriptures says it's going to be hot for a long long time.
Jude 7 NWT
7So too Sod′om and Go‧mor′rah and the cities about them, after they in the same manner as the foregoing ones had committed fornication excessively and gone out after flesh for unnatural use, are placed before [us] as a [warning] example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire
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Whatever JW's want to call it even your scriptures says it's going to be hot for a long long time.
Jude 7 NWT
7So too Sod′om and Go‧mor′rah and the cities about them, after they in the same manner as the foregoing ones had committed fornication excessively and gone out after flesh for unnatural use, are placed before [us] as a [warning] example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire
No, JB- it's what GOD 'calls' it. He even SPELLED IT OUT for us (Rarely done in Revelation).
He said the "Lake of Fire" means "the SECOND death". A condition- NOT a place.
Hell (no 'hellfire') is hurled into it. ( A HUGE lake of fire isn't hurled into an even BIGGER one!)
DEATH (not an object) is hurled into it. (Death can't burn- its a CONDITION)
The FIRST death- we have a release from, due to Christ's Ransom...NOT the SECOND death- which is eternal. The Everlasting Punishment
(http://i875.photobucket.com/albums/ab315/MadMag/Hellfire/theFuneral_zpsd8988a8c.png) (http://s875.photobucket.com/user/MadMag/media/Hellfire/theFuneral_zpsd8988a8c.png.html)
What I'D like to see at a funeral- church dogma inserted! heh
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It is your bible I quoted not mine.
NEW WORLD TRANSLATION OF THE HOLY SCRIPTURES
Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire has been ignited in my anger
And it will burn down to She′ol, the lowest place,
And it will consume the earth and its produce
And will set ablaze the foundations of mountains.
God's ANGER is the "Fire"- not Sheol. Pay ATTENTION to the scripture; stop pounding church dogma into it!
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(http://i875.photobucket.com/albums/ab315/MadMag/CHURCHianity/RoadSign.jpg) (http://s875.photobucket.com/user/MadMag/media/CHURCHianity/RoadSign.jpg.html)
There are MANY reasons- so I will state the FIRST,m and FOREMOST:
1- Satan wants to HIDE the Truth
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There are MANY reasons- so I will state the FIRST,m and FOREMOST:
1- Satan wants to HIDE the Truth
Well after reading your ranting and raving and misinterpretation of God's word, it is apparently not clear at least to the human mind. That is why we turn for our interpretation to the Holy Ghost, not some committee who heads our congregation (assembly of believers).
Why is it that you look to someone else to tell you what the Bible says? Are all Jehovah's Witnesses sheeps being led to the slaughter because of one letter that was added to their text and claim to be from God?
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There are MANY reasons- so I will state the FIRST,m and FOREMOST:
1- Satan wants to HIDE the Truth
Well could it be that some bibles are not really clear as to the true nature of God?
Let's look at the NEW WORLD TRANSLATION OF THE HOLY SCRIPTURES given to us by the Watchtower organization.
The NWT teaches it's followers that the Godhead is made up three separate entities.
Matt 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit,
And it teaches it's followers that the son prayed to the father also known as Jehovah.
John 17:1 Jesus spoke these things, and, raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come; glorify your son, that your son may glorify you….11“Also, I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name which you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are.
But then that translation teaches it's followers that Jehovah is not the father of a son, but the father is the Holy Ghost.
Matt 1:18 But the birth of Jesus Christ was in this way. During the time his mother Mary was promised in marriage to Joseph, she was found to be pregnant by holy spirit before they were united.
So this translation teaches it's followers that the three members of the Godhead are totally separate, and that the son mistakenly believed he was the offspring of Jehovah, when in truth they were not related.
I agree that Satan wants to HIDE the Truth. And it is obvious to find that truth we must look at more accurate translation.
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Gehenna was not referred to there, and his anger was OFTEN referred to as Fire, since fire was used to destroy.
That's your Bible I am quoting, are you telling me that your Bible is based on a lie?
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Well after reading your ranting and raving and misinterpretation of God's word, it is apparently not clear at least to the human mind. That is why we turn for our interpretation to the Holy Ghost, not some committee who heads our congregation (assembly of believers).
Why is it that you look to someone else to tell you what the Bible says? Are all Jehovah's Witnesses sheeps being led to the slaughter because of one letter that was added to their text and claim to be from God?
You mean the Catholic-Fabricated nameless Ghost-God?
For Thinkers- it's EASY to determine whether a verse is translated correctly; too bad that leaves YOU out...
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That's your Bible I am quoting, are you telling me that your Bible is based on a lie?
Fat, the NWT is the most accurate of all Bile Translations.
You understand neither it, nor others as your babbling shows.
Why not ask Questions, rather than ASSume?
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You mean the Catholic-Fabricated nameless Ghost-God?
For Thinkers- it's EASY to determine whether a verse is translated correctly; too bad that leaves YOU out...
FYI I am of the Calvinist nature in my theology.
The "nameless Ghost-God" is named in your "NEW WORLD TRANSLATION" see Phat's post above.
Have you ever read as far as Acts in the bible?
1Now while the day of the [festival of] Pentecost was in progress they were all together at the same place,2and suddenly there occurred from heaven a noise just like that of a rushing stiff breeze, and it filled the whole house in which they were sitting.3And tongues as if of fire became visible to them and were distributed about, and one sat upon each one of them,4and they all became filled with holy spirit and started to speak with different tongues, just as the spirit was granting them to make utterance.
You should relly take the time to read your own bible and quit being lead around by your nose.
John 14:26 But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach YOU all things and bring back to YOUR minds all the things I told YOU.
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You just don't GET it.
I have done intensive research about the Bible for over 30 years Arrogant One., and have CAREFULLY r3ead it thru MANY times, using MANY translations, comparing Hebrew and Greek.
Consider:
What Name does this Spook-God have?
Why does God call IT an 'it'?
How does God divide it into 71 portions, pour it out, and FILL people with it.
Why did God ALWAYS manifest IT as a glowing light- never in human form?
Why is IT NEVER seen in the visions of God and Christ?
Do you even know what Ruach and Pneuma MEAN?
These are Rhetorical to us.
Let's see if they are to YOU!
BTW- Jesus said his Father is the ONLY true God; he did NOT forget to leave himself out, nor your Catholic Ghost-god!
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Fat, the NWT is the most accurate of all Bile Translations.
You understand neither it, nor others as your babbling shows.
Why not ask Questions, rather than ASSume?
OK here is your question: http://biblediscussion.org/index.php/topic,219.msg1673.html#msg1673 (http://biblediscussion.org/index.php/topic,219.msg1673.html#msg1673)
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What? Do we have one or two saviors?
you tell ME:
Rev 7:10 And they were shouting with a great roar,
“Salvation comes from our God who sits on the throne
and from the Lamb!”
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What? Do we have one or two saviors?
you tell ME:
Rev 7:10 And they were shouting with a great roar,
“Salvation comes from our God who sits on the throne
and from the Lamb!”
"...the archangel Michael is Jesus Christ...So the evidence indicates that the Son of God was known as Michael before he came to earth and is known also by that name since his return to heaven where he resides as the glorified spirit Son of God."—Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, p. 218
Is Michael, an angel, your Savior?
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BTW- Jesus said his Father is the ONLY true God; he did NOT forget to leave himself out, nor your Catholic Ghost-god!
Be careful friend.
Matt 12:31“On this account I say to YOU, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven.32For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come.
You keep referring to Catholics, as far as I know there are no Catholics on this FORUM. Catholics, like JW's and LDS don't really like to talk about the Scriptures.
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What? Do we have one or two saviors?
you tell ME:
Rev 7:10 And they were shouting with a great roar,
“Salvation comes from our God who sits on the throne
and from the Lamb!”
That does not even begin to answer the contradiction in a New World translation.
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As I thought- you DON'T know any better.
The RCC formulated most of all of your dogma.
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Fat- do you even know what an Angel is?????
And why did you COMPLETELY ignore that scripture, too?
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As I thought- you DON'T know any better.
The RCC formulated most of all of your dogma.
Good try Mad dude, but you have no clue as to who or what I am.
The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked..
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Fat- do you even know what an Angel is?????
And why did you COMPLETELY ignore that scripture, too?
I have to assume from your comment that you do in fact believe that Christ is Michael the Archangel. So why don't you show us the Scripture that leads to your belief that Jesus Christ the Messiah was and is Michael the Archangel.
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Diversion like like only works with idiots, Pretender.
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You ignore scriptures posted, and toss pompous judgments- your just another dumbed-down church goer.
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You ignore scriptures posted, and toss pompous judgments- your just another dumbed-down church goer.
Deuteronomy 18:22 NWT
when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.’
Jeremiah 14 NWT
14 And Jehovah went on to say to me: “Falsehood is what the prophets are prophesying in my name. I have not sent them, nor have I commanded them or spoken to them. A false vision and divination and a valueless thing and the trickiness of their heart they are speaking prophetically to YOU people.15 Therefore this is what Jehovah has said concerning the prophets who are prophesying in my name and whom I myself did not send and who are saying that no sword or famine will occur in this land, ‘By sword and by famine those prophets will come to their finish.16And the very people to whom they are prophesying will become people cast out into the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword, with no one to do the burying of them—them, their wives and their sons and their daughters. And I will pour out upon them their calamity.’
"True, it is expecting great things to claim, as we do, that within the coming twenty-six years all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved . In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, will be accomplished at the end of A. D. 1914 . Be not surprised, then, when in subsequent chapters we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God is already begun, that it is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in A.D. 1878, and that the "battle of the great day of God Almighty" (Rev. 16:14), which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced. The gathering of the armies is plainly visible from the standpoint of God's Word." Studies In the Scriptures Series II - The Time Is At Hand (1889) pp.99, 101
"But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble. Zion's Watch Tower 1894 Jul 15 p.226
"Our Lord, the appointed King, is now present since October 1874, A.D., according to the testimony of the prophets, to those who have ears to hear it: and the formal inauguration of his kingly office dates from April 1878, A.D." Studies in Scriptures Series IV (1897) p.621
"… the battle of the great day of God Almighty … The date of the close of that "battle" is definitely marked in Scripture as October 1914. It is already in progress, its beginning dating from October, 1874." Zion's Watch Tower 1892 January 15 p.23
"October, 1914, will witness the full end of Babylon, "as a great millstone cast into the sea," utterly destroyed as a system." Watch Tower 1911 June 15 p.190
"That the deliverance of the saints must take place some time before 1914 is manifest, since the deliverance of fleshly Israel, as we shall see, is appointed to take place at that time... Just how long before 1914 the last living members of the body of Christ will be glorified, was are not directly informed;..." Studies In the Scriptures Series III - Thy Kingdom Come (1908 ed.) p.228
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You ignore scriptures posted, and toss pompous judgments- your just another dumbed-down church goer.
As apposed to a disassembled assembly?
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"...the archangel Michael is Jesus Christ...So the evidence indicates that the Son of God was known as Michael before he came to earth and is known also by that name since his return to heaven where he resides as the glorified spirit Son of God."—Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, p. 218
Is Michael, an angel, your Savior?
You're kidding right! Is this for real?
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You're kidding right! Is this for real?
Afraid not, it is for real.
1 Corinthians 6:3 Do you not know that we will judge angels-not to speak of things pertaining to this life?
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You're kidding right! Is this for real?
Hi Moss,
Here is some of their prophecy blunders. God said to stay away from these people "be afraid of them" do not open your door to them!
1877 'The End Of This World; that is the end of the gospel and the beginning of the millennial age is nearer than most men suppose; indeed we have already entered the transition period, which is to be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation Dan. 12:3." (N.H. Barbour and C.T. Russell, Three Worlds, and the Harvest of This World, p. 17).
1879 "Christ came in the character of a Bridegroom in 1874.... at the beginning of the Gospel harvest." (Watchtower, Oct 1879, p. 4)
1880 "We need not here repeat the evidences that the "seventh trump" began its sounding A.D., 1840, and will continue until the end of the time of trouble, and the end of "The times of the Gentiles," A.D., 1914, and that it is the trouble of this "Great day," which is here symbolically called the voice of the Archangel when he begins the deliverance of fleshly Israel. "At that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince (Archangel) which standeth for the children of thy people and there shall be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation." Dan. xii. 1. Nor will we here, again present the conclusive Bible proof that our Lord came for his Bride in 1874, and has an unseen work as Reaper of the first-fruits of this Gospel Age. (Zion's Watchtower November, 1880 p. 1)
1886 "The outlook at the opening of the New Year has some very encouraging features. The outward evidences are that the marshaling of the hosts for the battle of the great day of God Almighty, is in progress while the skirmishing is commencing. … The time is come for Messiah to take the dominion of earth and to overthrow the oppressors and corrupters of the earth, (Rev. 19:15 and 11:17, 18) preparatory to the establishment of everlasting peace upon the only firm foundation of righteousness and truth." (Zion's Watchtower, January, 1886;Watchtower reprints I, p. 817)
1888 "In this chapter we present the Bible evidence proving that the full end of the times of the gentiles, i.e., the full end of their lease of dominion, will be reached in A.D. 1914; and that the date will be the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men. And be it observed, that if this is shown to be a fact firmly established by the Scriptures, it will prove; Firstly, that at that date the Kingdom of God, for which our Lord taught us to pray, saying, Thy Kingdom come, will obtain full, universal control, and that it will then be set up, or firmly established, in the earth, on the ruins of present institutions." (The Time Is At Hand, 1888, p. 76, 77)
1889 "Be not surprised, then, when in subsequent chapters we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God is already begun, that it is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in A.D. 1878, and that the 'battle of the great day of God Almighty (Rev. 16:14) which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced. The gathering of the armies is plainly visible from the standpoint of God's word." (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, The Time Is At Hand, 1889 Ed., p. 101. The 1915 Edition of this texts changed "A.D. 1914" to read 'A.D. 1915')
1889 "Here we furnish the evidence that from the creation of Adam to (but not including) A.D. 1873 was six thousand years. And though the Bible contains no direct statement that the seventh thousand will be the epoch of Christ's reign, the great Sabbath Day of restitution to the world, yet the venerable tradition is not without a reasonable foundation." (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, p. 39. 1889)
1889 "If, then, the seventh thousand-year period of earth's history be an epoch specially noted as the period of Christ's reign, we shall by showing that it began in 1873, be proving that we are already in it." (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, p. 40. 1889)
1889 "In the coming 26 years, all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved." (C.T. Russell, Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, p. 98-99, 1889)
1889 "In this chapter we present the Bible evidence which indicates that six thousand years from the creation of Adam were complete with A.D. 1872; and hence that, since A.D. 1872 are chronologically entered upon the seventh thousand or the Millennium." (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, p. 33, 1889)
1889 "Remember that the forty years' Jewish Harvest ended October A.D. 69, and was followed by the complete overthrow of that nation; and that likewise the forty years of the Gospel age harvest will end October, 1914, and that likewise the overthrow of 'Christendom,' so-called, must be expected to immediately follow." (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, p. 245)
1894 "Seventeen years ago people said, concerning the time features presented in Millennial Dawn, They seem reasonable in many respects, but surely no such radical changes could occur between now and the close of 1914: if you had proved that they would come about in a century or two, it would seem much more probable. What changes have since occurred, and what velocity is gained daily? 'The old is quickly passing and the new is coming in.' Now, in view of recent labor troubles and threatened anarchy, our readers are writing to know if there may not be a mistake in the 1914 date. They say that they do not see how present conditions can hold out so long under the strain. We see no reason for changing the figures-nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God's dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble." (Zion's Watchtower, Can It Be Delayed until 1914? C. T. Russell July 15, 1894, Also in Watchtower Reprints, l894 p. 1677)
1894 "A few more years will wind up the present order of things, and then the chastened world will stand face to face with the actual conditions of the established Kingdom of God. And yet the course of the Church is to be finished within the space of time that intervenes." (Watchtower p. 56, 1894)
1894 "We see no reason for changing the figures - nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God's dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble." (Watchtower July 15, 1894, p 266; p 1677 reprints)
1894 "We see no reason for changing the figures nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, Gods dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble." (Watchtower, July 15, 1894, Reprints p. 1677)
1897 "...this measurement is 3416 inches, symbolizing 3416 years.... This calculation shows A.D. 1874 as marking the beginning of the period of trouble...." (Russell, Studies in the Scriptures: Thy Kingdom Come, Series III, p. 342, 1897 edition [1916 edition changed to read: "We find it to be 3457 inches, symbolizing 3457 years.... Thus the Pyramid witnesses that the close of 1914 will be the beginning of the time of trouble...."] note: the measurement was the length of an interior passageway discovered inside the Pyramids. It has no reference in Scripture.)
1897 "Complete destruction of the 'powers that be' of 'this present evil worlds - political, financial, ecclesiastical - about the close of the Time of the Gentiles; October A.D. 1914." (C.T. Russell, Studies in the Scriptures, IV, p. 622, 1897)
1897 "Our Lord, the appointed King, is now present, since October 1874, A.D....and the formal inauguration of his kingly office dates from April 1878, A.D." (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol.4, p.621, 1897)
1897 "The distillery, the brewery, the saloon, the brothel, the pool-room, all time-killing and character-depraving business will be stopped; and their servants will be given something to do that will be beneficial to themselves and others. "Similarly, the building of war-vessels, the manufacture of munitions of war and defense will cease, and armies will be disbanded. The new Kingdom will have no need of these, but will have abundant power to execute summary justice in the punishment of evil doers... "The banking and brokerage business, and other like employment's, very useful under present conditions, will no longer have a place; for under the new conditions the human race will be required to treat each others as members of one family, and private capital and money to loan and to be needed will be things of the past. Landlords and renting agencies will find new employment also, because the new King will not recognize as valid patents and deeds now on record. "...namely, that with present conveniences, if the whole people were put to work systematically and wisely, not more than three hours labor for each individual would be necessary." (Studies, Vol. IV, pp. 633-635, 1897)
1902 "In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the kingdom of God, will be accomplished by the end of A.D. 1914." (The Time Is At Hand, 1902 edition, p. 99)
1903 "When Uranus and Jupiter meet in the humane sign of Aquarius in 1914, the long-promised era will have made a fair start in the work of setting man free to work out his own salvation, and will insure the ultimate realization of dreams and ideals of all poets and sages in history." (Watchtower, May 1, 1903, p. 130-131; p3184 Reprints)
1904 "According to our expectations the stress of the great time of trouble will be on us soon, somewhere between 1910 and 1912, culminating with the end of the 'Times of the Gentiles,' October, 1914." (The New Creation, Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 6, p. 579, 1904)
1908 "In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, will be accomplished at the end of A. D. 1914." (The Time Is At Hand; 1889; 1908 ed.; p. 99)
1908 "True, it is expecting great things to claim, as we do, that within the coming twenty-six years all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved" (The Time Is At Hand; 1889; 1908 ed.; p. 99)
1914 "Even if the time of our change should not come within ten years, what more should we ask? Are we not a blessed, happy people? Is not our God faithful? If anyone knows anything better, let him take it. If any of you ever find anything better, we hope you will tell us." (Watchtower, Dec 15, 1914, p. 376.)
1914 "Studying God's Word, we have measured the 2520 years, the seven symbolic times, from that year 606 B.C. and have found that it reached down to October, 1914, as nearly as we were able to reckon. We did not say positively that this would be the year." (Watchtower, November 1, 1914, p. 325)
1914 "While it's possible that Armageddon may begin next Spring, yet this purely speculation to attempt to say just when. We see, however, that there are parallels between the close of the Jewish age and this Gospel age. These parallels seem to point to the year just before us part particularly the early months." (Watchtower Reprints, VI, Sept 1, 1914, p. 5527)
1914 "There is absolutely no ground for Bible students to question that the consummation of this Gospel age is now even at the door, and that it will end as the Scriptures foretell in a great time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation. We see the participants in this great crisis banding themselves together… The great crisis, the great clash, symbolically represented as a fire, that will consume the ecclesiastical heavens and the social earth, is very near." (Watchtower Reprints, VI, May 1, 1914, p. 5450)
1915 "The present great war in Europe is the beginning of the Armageddon of the Scriptures Rev 19:16-20). It will eventuate in the complete overthrow of all the systems of error which have so long oppressed the people of God and deluded the world. We believe the present war cannot last much longer until revolutions shall break out" (C.T. Russell, Pastor Russell's Sermons, p. 676, Sometime during World War I)
1915 Here we furnish the evidence that from the creation of Adam to A.D. 1873 was six thousand years. And though the Bible contains no direct statement that the seventh thousand will be the epoch of Christ's reign, the great Sabbath Day of restitution to the world, yet the venerable tradition is not without reasonable foundation. (The Time Is At Hand; 1889; 1915 ed.; p. 39)
1915 If, then, the seventh thousand-year period of earth's history be an epoch specially noted as the period of Christ's reign, we shall, by showing that it began in A.D. 1873, be proving that we are already in it. (The Time Is At Hand; 1889; 1915 ed.; p. 40)
1915 Firstly, that at that date [1914] the Kingdom of God, for which our Lord taught us to pray, saying, "Thy Kingdom come," will begin to assume control, and that it will then shortly be "set up," or firmly established, in the earth, on the ruins of present institutions. (The Time Is At Hand; 1889; 1915 ed.; p. 77)
1915 "In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the kingdom of God, will be accomplished near the end of A.D. 1915. (The Time Is At Hand, 1915 edition, p. 99)
1915 "Be not surprised, then, when in subsequent chapters we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God is already begun, that it is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in A.D. 1878, and that the 'battle of the great day of God Almighty' (Rev. 16:14), which will end in A.D. 1915, with the complete overthrow of the earth's present rulership, is already commenced." (The Time Is At Hand; 1889; 1915 ed.; p. 101)
1915 "As in the type that date - three and a half years after the death of Christ - marked the end of all special favor to the Jew and the beginning of favor to the Gentiles, so we recognize A.D. 1881 as marking the close of the 'high calling,' or invitation to the blessing peculiar to this age - to become joint-heirs with Christ and partakers of the divine nature." (The Time Is At Hand; 1889; 1915 ed.; p. 235)
1915 So it was in this harvest also up to A.D. 1878 the time prophecies and the fact of the Lord's presence, substantially as here presented, though less clearly, was our message. Since then the work has widened, and the view of other truths has become brighter and clearer; but the same fact and scriptures, teaching the same time and presence, stand unchallenged and incontrovertible. (The Time Is At Hand; 1889; 1915 ed.; p. 236)
1915 The Gentile Times prove that the present governments must all be overturned about the close of A.D. 1915; and Parallelism above shows that this period corresponds exactly with the year A.D. 70, which witnessed the completion of the downfall of the Jewish polity. (The Time Is At Hand, 1915 edition, p. 242)
1915 We are already living in the seventh millennium - since October 1872. (The Time Is At Hand; 1889; 1915 ed.; p. 363)
1915 The Battle of Armageddon, to which this war is leading, will be a great contest between right and wrong, and will signify the complete and everlasting overthrow of the wrong, and the permanent establishment of Messiah's righteous kingdom for the blessing of the world. … Our sympathies are broad enough to cover all engaged in the dreadful strife, as our hope is broad enough and deep enough to include all in the great blessings which our Master and his Millennial kingdom are about to bring to the world. (Watchtower Reprints, VI, April 1, 1915, p. 5659)
1915 To our understanding the general call to this joint heirship with our Redeemer as members of the New Creation of God, ceased in 1881. (The New Creation; 1899; 1915 ed.; p. 95)
1916 "The Bible chronology herein presented shows that the six great 1000 year days beginning with Adam are ended, and that the great 7th Day, the 1000 years of Christ's Reign, began in 1873." (The Time Is At Hand, Foreword, p 2, 1916)
1916 We see no reason for doubting, therefore, that the Times of the Gentiles ended in October, 1914; and that a few more years will witness their utter collapse and the full establishment of God's kingdom in the hands of Messiah." (Watchtower Reprints, VI, Sept 1, 1916, p. 5950)
1917 'There will be no slip-up...Abraham should enter upon the actual possession of his promised inheritance in the year 1925' (Watchtower Oct. 15, 1917, p. 6157)
1917 The Spring of 1918 will bring upon Christendom a spasm of anguish greater even than that experienced in the Fall of 1914.... The travail that is coming is to be upon nominal Zion- "Christendom" … "Babylon"; and it will be a great and sore affliction- "A Time of Trouble such as was not since there was a nation." (The Finished Mystery p. 62 [stated to be the "Posthumous Work of Pastor Russell" on p. 2])
1917 'No doubt Satan believed the Millennial Kingdom was due to be set-up in 1915...Be that as it may, there is evidence that the establishment of the Kingdom in Palestine will probably be in 1925, ten years later than we once calculated.' (Studies In The Scriptures, Vol 7, The Finished Mystery, p. 128)
1917 Some interesting developments in connection with the setting up of the Kingdom may occur in 1920, six years after the great Time of Trouble began. It would not be strange if this were so, when we recall that after forty years wandering in the wilderness the Israelites came into possession of the land of Canaan after a further six years. As these matters are still future we can but wait to see. We anticipate that the "earthquake" will occur early in 1918, and that the "fire" will come in the fall of 1920. [The Finished Mystery, 1917, p. 178, Comments on Revelation 11:13. [The 1926 ed. reads: "and that the 'fire' will follow in due course."])
1917 "And the mountains were not found. Even the republics will disappear in the fall of 1920. And the mountains were not found. Every kingdom of earth will pass away, be swallowed up in anarchy." (The Finished Mystery, 1917 edition, p. 258)
1917 Pastor Russell's mission, in large part, was to advise Christendom of its impending end, in the time of world-wide trouble. It is the Divine judgment upon the nations. … There will be no chance of escaping from destruction, through the nations. … The trouble is due to the dawning of the Day of Christ, the Millennium. It is the Day of Vengeance, which began in the world war of 1914 and which will break like a furious morning storm in 1918." (The Finished Mystery, 1917, p. 404)
1917 "Until 1878 the nominal church had been in a sense God's sanctuary or temple; but He was from then on, culminating in 1918, to remove it with a stroke or plague of erroneous doctrines and deeds Divinely permitted. The Church was the strength of Christendom, that about which its life centered, and around which its institutions were built. It was the desire of the eyes of the people, that which all Christians loved. Nevertheless, God was to make manifest the profanation which ecclesiasticism had made of the Christian Church, and to cause the church organizations to become to Him as one dead, an unclean thing, not to be touched, or mourned. And the 'children of the church' shall perish by the sword of war, revolution and anarchy, and by the Sword of the Spirit be made to see that they have lost their hope of life on the spirit plane -- that 'the door is shut."' (Studies in the Scriptures, vol. 7, 1917 p. 484.)
1917 Also, in the year 1918, when God destroys the churches wholesale and the church members by million, it shall be that any that escape shall come to the works of Pastor Russell to learn the meaning of the downfall of Christianity. (The Finished Mystery, 1917 edition, p. 485)
1917 As the fleshly-minded apostates from Christianity, siding with the radicals and revolutionaries, will rejoice at the inheritance of desolation that will be Christendom's after 1918, so will God do to the successful revolutionary movement; it shall be utterly desolated, "even all of it." Not one vestige of it shall survive the ravages of world-wide all embracing anarchy, in the fall of 1920. (Rev. II: 7-13) (The Finished Mystery, 1917, p. 542, [The 1926 ed. reads: "in the end of the time of trouble."])
1917 This vision of the prophet Ezekiel depicts the established theocratic Kingdom of God on earth, civil and religious, spiritual and earthly. . . . The Temple . . . is a type and symbol of "better things to come," after the wars, revolutions and anarchy of the period from 1914 to 1925 have passed. (The Finished Mystery, 1917, p. 569 [The 1926 ed. reads: "of the time of trouble have passed."])
1918 "Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews 11, to the condition of human perfection." (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, p. 89)
1920 '...we may expect 1925 to witness the return of these faithful men of Israel from the condition of death, being resurrected' (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920, p. 88)
1920 "A simple calculation of these jubilees brings us to this important fact: Seventy jubilees of fifty years each would be a total of 3500 years. That period of time beginning 1575 before A.D. 1 of necessity would end in the fall of 1925, at which time the type ends and the great antitype must begin. What, then, should we expect to take palace? In the type there must be a full restoration; beginning of restoration of all things. The chief thing to be restored is the human race to life; and since other Scriptures definitely fix the fact that there will be a resurrection of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and other faithful ones of old, and that these will have the first favor, we may expect 1925 to witness the return of these faithful men and Israel from the condition of death, being resurrected and fully restored to perfect humanity and made the visible, legal representatives of the new order of things on earth. (Millions now living will never die, 1920 p 89-90)
1920 'Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old' (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920, p. 89-90)
1920 "Based upon the argument heretofore set forth, then, that the old order of things, the old world, is ending and is therefore passing away, and th
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Fat- I don't understand your last reply.
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JB- who HASN"T mistaken what God's prophecies mean?
Using your 'reasoning'- we are ALL 'false prophets'.
We're not- your just playing Judge, as most in Churchianity do.
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Poor Trinnies- Jesus is no longer a Messenger (angel) of God- but is King WITH God. ("The Right Hand of God" ring any bells with you?)
Yet, when he takes action, he still has the Authority (voice) of Archangel- and indeed LEADS them into action.
God doesn't. Jesus does- as foretold of Michael.
But you can't connect ANY dots when blinded by church coprolite...
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'biblebuf', You make the same stupid mistake most in Churchianity do; claim those are our own prophecies.
I would guess that you say something honest only by accident.
Those- like even MORE cases in Churchianity- are no more than mistaken understanding of GOD'S prophecies, Arrogant One.
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'biblebuf', You make the same stupid mistake most in Churchianity do; claim those are our own prophecies.
I would guess that you say something honest only by accident.
Those- like even MORE cases in Churchianity- are no more than mistaken understanding of GOD'S prophecies, Arrogant One.
Another post full of substance.
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Poor Trinnies- Jesus is no longer a Messenger (angel) of God- but is King WITH God. ("The Right Hand of God" ring any bells with you?)
Yet, when he takes action, he still has the Authority (voice) of Archangel- and indeed LEADS them into action.
God doesn't. Jesus does- as foretold of Michael.
But you can't connect ANY dots when blinded by church coprolite...
It is really important that you people that are just visiting the board and reading these post understand that Jehovah's Witnesses do say that Christ was (is) Michael the Archangel. Can they back it up with the bible, well you see this is what you get.
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JB- who HASN"T mistaken what God's prophecies mean?
Using your 'reasoning'- we are ALL 'false prophets'.
We're not- your just playing Judge, as most in Churchianity do.
I have made no prophecies nor has my Church.
Galatians 1:9 NWT
As we have said above, I also now say again, Whoever it is that is declaring to YOU as good news something beyond what YOU accepted, let him be accursed.
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It is really important that you people that are just visiting the board and reading these post understand that Jehovah's Witnesses do say that Christ was (is) Michael the Archangel. Can they back it up with the bible, well you see this is what you get.
The first tactic of the Deceivers; Divert!
Fine with ME; I'm USED to it.
You tell US now; did Jesus use ventriloquism?
1 Thess 4: 16 - For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God.
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Denial at its funniest.
Does your church say Jesus will return LITERALLY surfing a cloud around the world, and pulling bup the 'immortal souls' of "those that pierced him" to watch?
According to JB- THAT is a prophecy. And it is as False as one can get.
Does your church say Jesus will destroy the earth- after preaching the meek will INHERIT it?
According to JB- THAT is a prophecy. And it is as False as one can get.
Want MORE? I have plenty! ;D
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Those are no more prophecies than ours.
Those are OPINIONS as to what the prophecies from God MEAN. NOTHING more.
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We are seem to be running in problems with getting Jehovah's Witnesses to answer questions directly. I thought it might be wise to have one place to post them so we can keep track of them.
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We are seem to be running in problems with getting Jehovah's Witnesses to answer questions directly. I thought it might be wise to have one place to post them so we can keep track of them.
;D good idea ;D
I have a question that I have been denied the right to ask.
Does the NWT teach that angels are gods?
Trouble is I have a follow up to it but I can't ask it without a response :(
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The Games Churchoids Play.
Divert, accuse, ignore scriptures and questions- just SOME of the trademarks of pretend Christians- who worship their CHURCH, rather than God...
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The Games Churchoids Play.
Divert, accuse, ignore scriptures and questions- just SOME of the trademarks of pretend Christians- who worship their CHURCH, rather than God...
Hey that is really great please answer this for me.
The Jehovah's Witnesses have a savior or do they have two saviors?
As most people know the Jehovah's witnesses have rewritten the Bible for the sole purpose of separating Christ and God the Father. They still do not explain how they can have two saviors when in Isaiah 43:10-11 their own translation says, "YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”
In many verses in their translation of the Bible such as acts 13:23 they refer to the Savior of Israel as Jesus. It is repeated again and acts 5:31 God exalted this one as Chief Agent and Savior to his right hand, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And in 2 Timothy 1:10 they refer to the Savior as Jesus Christ. There are many more verses in the Bible such as first John 4:14, Titus 2:6-14, acts 4:9-12 Titus 1:1-16, 2 Timothy 1:10. Sometimes when the Savior is being referred to as Christ is in lower case and sometimes it is capitalized apparently for no rhyme or reason. It appears they've concentrated so hard on trying to divide the Father and the Son that they forgot that only one, according to the Father can be the savior of Israel.
1 John 4: (NWT)
14 In addition, we ourselves have beheld and are bearing witness that the Father has sent forth his Son as Savior of the world.
Titus 2: (NWT)
6 Likewise keep on exhorting the younger men to be sound in mind, 7 in all things showing yourself an example of fine works; showing uncorruptness in your teaching, seriousness, 8 wholesome speech which cannot be condemned; so that the man on the opposing side may get ashamed, having nothing vile to say about us. 9 Let slaves be in subjection to their owners in all things, and please them well, not talking back, 10 not committing theft, but exhibiting good fidelity to the full, so that they may adorn the teaching of our Savior, God, in all things.
Acts 4 (NWT)
9 if we are this day being examined, on the basis of a good deed to an ailing man, as to by whom this man has been made well, 10 let it be known to all of YOU and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ the Naz·a·rene´, whom YOU impaled but whom God raised up from the dead, by this one does this man stand here sound in front of YOU. 11 This is ‘the stone that was treated by YOU builders as of no account that has become the head of the corner.’ 12 Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.”
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God, altho being our Savior, since he sent His son as our Savior, is rarely referred to as such; He gives credit to Jesus who carried out His will.
Thus we read-
Rev 7:10 And they were shouting with a great roar,
“Salvation comes from our God who sits on the throne and from the Lamb!”
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The Games Churchoids Play.
Divert, accuse, ignore scriptures and questions- just SOME of the trademarks of pretend Christians- who worship their CHURCH, rather than God...
God, altho being our Savior, since he sent His son as our Savior, is rarely referred to as such; He gives credit to Jesus who carried out His will.
Thus we read-
Rev 7:10 And they were shouting with a great roar,
“Salvation comes from our God who sits on the throne and from the Lamb!”
"YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”
God exalted this one as Chief Agent and Savior to his right hand, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins
In addition, we ourselves have beheld and are bearing witness that the Father has sent forth his Son as Savior of the world.
From the offspring of this [man] according to his promise God has brought to Israel a savior, Jesus,
And I like the verse you pointed out, thank you.
And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
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;D good idea ;D
I have a question that I have been denied the right to ask.
Does the NWT teach that angels are gods?
Trouble is I have a follow up to it but I can't ask it without a response :(
Well the answer would be yes. I think that is a fair assumption.
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There ARE no Questions us JWs "Refuse" to Answer.
Really!
Colossians 1:16-20
NWT- “because by means of him all [other] things have been created....all [other] things have been created through him....Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist....”
Literal Greek Text- Suffice it to say that the word “other” is not found in the Greek text.
Why has the Watchtower added the word "other" four times in the above passage? Without the word “other” present, the text says that Jesus is the Creator of all things. By sticking the word "other" in, Jesus becomes Jehovah’s “master worker” who was created by Jehovah and was then used to create all other things in existence. Interestingly, the very first edition of the NWT’s New Testament didn’t even bracket the word “other” to show that it was added to the text. Later editions became somewhat more honest. However, many times when the Watchtower quotes the above verses in their literature, they remove the brackets. We see that again, the Greek text contradicts the Watchtower’s own theology.
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There ARE no Questions us JWs "Refuse" to Answer.
Really!
Colossians 1:16-20
NWT- “because by means of him all [other] things have been created....all [other] things have been created through him....Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist....”
Literal Greek Text- Suffice it to say that the word “other” is not found in the Greek text.
Why has the Watchtower added the word "other" four times in the above passage? Without the word “other” present, the text says that Jesus is the Creator of all things. By sticking the word "other" in, Jesus becomes Jehovah’s “master worker” who was created by Jehovah and was then used to create all other things in existence. Interestingly, the very first edition of the NWT’s New Testament didn’t even bracket the word “other” to show that it was added to the text. Later editions became somewhat more honest. However, many times when the Watchtower quotes the above verses in their literature, they remove the brackets. We see that again, the Greek text contradicts the Watchtower’s own theology.
Yes- REALLY. Pitiful 'example'.
All translations add words to make the Greek text understandable in English.
Let's ASSume that it SHOULD read : "because by means of him all things have been created".
That would mean Jesus created himself and his father...and in YOUR minds the Ghost-God.
So even YOU know that's not the case- as shown in the Greek. he created (made) all OTHER things.
NEXT!
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Yes- REALLY. Pitiful 'example'.
All translations add words to make the Greek text understandable in English.
Let's ASSume that it SHOULD read : "because by means of him all things have been created".
That would mean Jesus created himself and his father...and in YOUR minds the Ghost-God.
So even YOU know that's not the case- as shown in the Greek. he created (made) all OTHER things.
NEXT!
That would mean Jesus created himself and his father...and in YOUR minds the Ghost-God.
Not exactly.
6 because by means of him all () things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All () things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all () things and by means of him all () things were made to exist,18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things;19 because [God] saw good for all fullness to dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile again to himself all () things by making peace through the blood [he shed] on the torture stake, no matter whether they are the things upon the earth or the things in the heavens.
OH NO HE IS BEFORE ALL THINGS!! Do we recall the I AM name??
For those that can't make sense of this dribble here is the way it should read.
NAS
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities -all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church ; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross ; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
Now look at the HCS.
16 because by Him everything was created, in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities- all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and by Him all things hold together. 18 He is also the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He might come to have first place in everything. 19 For God was pleased [to have] all His fullness dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile everything to Himself by making peace through the blood of His cross- whether things on earth or things in heaven.
Now this all only makes sense if you believe in the Trinity, other wise you have to correct the text to read what YOU want it to say.
The Mad JW calls this a "Pitiful 'example'". So let's move on to the next one.
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"all things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships..."
God (or your Gods) are in...HEAVEN.
He (or THEY) are INVISIBLE.
He (or THEY) have thrones.
Yes, God and Christ are "Before" or "Over" all things- but that STILL includes THEM...I it really , literally is "ALL".
It isn't.
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Please explain this conflict in your translation.
John 14:6 (NWT)
6 Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
John 6:65 (NWT)
So he went on to say: “This is why I have said to YOU, No one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
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Please explain this conflict in your translation.
John 14:6 (NWT)
6 Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
John 6:65 (NWT)
So he went on to say: “This is why I have said to YOU, No one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
Dd earlier- you pay little attention.
They are NOT contradictions, and are in MOST translations- if not all.
Jesus is the Way, provided by God- yet God directs the sincere TO him, first.
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"all things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships..."
God (or your Gods) are in...HEAVEN.
He (or THEY) are INVISIBLE.
He (or THEY) have thrones.
Yes, God and Christ are "Before" or "Over" all things- but that STILL includes THEM...I it really , literally is "ALL".
It isn't.
I'm sorry but we teach One God, it is your NWT that teaches many gods. Do you dispute that?
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I'm sorry but we teach One God, it is your NWT that teaches many gods. Do you dispute that?
On BOTH counts; you teach 3 Gods- and SAY they are 1; that is for fools. Merley SAYING they are ONE doesn't make it so. Jesus FOLLOWERS are "One" with God- are they ar part of your mythical 'Godhead', too?
We are the ONLY ones I know of who TRULY believe in only one TRUE God- Jehovah- the God Jesus worships.
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On BOTH counts; you teach 3 Gods- and SAY they are 1; that is for fools. Merley SAYING they are ONE doesn't make it so. Jesus FOLLOWERS are "One" with God- are they ar part of your mythical 'Godhead', too?
We are the ONLY ones I know of who TRULY believe in only one TRUE God- Jehovah- the God Jesus worships.
No it is you that teaches three god's.
NWT
In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.
We teach one God, the Trinity.
NAS
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
By the way isn't that a god you're book refers to an angel? So how many (a god) angels are there?
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(http://i875.photobucket.com/albums/ab315/MadMag/CHURCHianity/TWINITY/FalseGods_zps57d1e053.jpg) (http://s875.photobucket.com/user/MadMag/media/CHURCHianity/TWINITY/FalseGods_zps57d1e053.jpg.html)
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Neither Moses, nor Jesus, nor Angels that were referred to as "God" were LITREALLY God, but SPOKE for Him.
Is that the best shot you can take to 'prove' your Twinity Dogma?
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Neither Moses, nor Jesus, nor Angels that were referred to as "God" were LITREALLY God, but SPOKE for Him.
Is that the best shot you can take to 'prove' your Twinity Dogma?
Now that is typical for a JW changing the text to read in support of a lie.
The scripture reads: The Lord answered Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother will be your prophet.
Therefore, holy brothers and companions in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession; He was faithful to the One who appointed Him, just as Moses was in all God's household.
But you say the Word is a god, not like god, but a god and not to the Pharaoh but to the world. And you say the the Word is an angel and how many angels are there?
You keep coming up with the fact that your bible can't be taken literally but mine must be, why?
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Poor BB, he has to resort to hypocrisy.
"LIKE" is added there as "OTHER" is to how Jesus made all OTHER things" in the NWT.
BOTH are correct- and "LIKE" would have been added to John 1:1, if translators were honest.
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On BOTH counts; you teach 3 Gods- and SAY they are 1; that is for fools. Merley SAYING they are ONE doesn't make it so. Jesus FOLLOWERS are "One" with God- are they ar part of your mythical 'Godhead', too?
We are the ONLY ones I know of who TRULY believe in only one TRUE God- Jehovah- the God Jesus worships.
You should get some help understanding the scriptures and what others teach about them. YOU'RE way off the mark.
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First of all, Only those who become Gods sons and or daughters in His kingdom will be spirit and will live and reign with Him. Those who are not His will be resurrected and given a chance to become His. If they do not accept Him they are still flesh and blood and they will burn up and the will die. It will be the final death for them , no burning forever.
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First of all, Only those who become Gods sons and or daughters in His kingdom will be spirit and will live and reign with Him. Those who are not His will be resurrected and given a chance to become His. If they do not accept Him they are still flesh and blood and they will burn up and the will die. It will be the final death for them , no burning forever.
Can you back this up with scripture please?
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Hey that is really great please answer this for me.
The Jehovah's Witnesses have a savior or do they have two saviors?
As most people know the Jehovah's witnesses have rewritten the Bible for the sole purpose of separating Christ and God the Father. They still do not explain how they can have two saviors when in Isaiah 43:10-11 their own translation says, "YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”
In many verses in their translation of the Bible such as acts 13:23 they refer to the Savior of Israel as Jesus. It is repeated again and acts 5:31 God exalted this one as Chief Agent and Savior to his right hand, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And in 2 Timothy 1:10 they refer to the Savior as Jesus Christ. There are many more verses in the Bible such as first John 4:14, Titus 2:6-14, acts 4:9-12 Titus 1:1-16, 2 Timothy 1:10. Sometimes when the Savior is being referred to as Christ is in lower case and sometimes it is capitalized apparently for no rhyme or reason. It appears they've concentrated so hard on trying to divide the Father and the Son that they forgot that only one, according to the Father can be the savior of Israel.
1 John 4: (NWT)
14 In addition, we ourselves have beheld and are bearing witness that the Father has sent forth his Son as Savior of the world.
Titus 2: (NWT)
6 Likewise keep on exhorting the younger men to be sound in mind, 7 in all things showing yourself an example of fine works; showing uncorruptness in your teaching, seriousness, 8 wholesome speech which cannot be condemned; so that the man on the opposing side may get ashamed, having nothing vile to say about us. 9 Let slaves be in subjection to their owners in all things, and please them well, not talking back, 10 not committing theft, but exhibiting good fidelity to the full, so that they may adorn the teaching of our Savior, God, in all things.
Acts 4 (NWT)
9 if we are this day being examined, on the basis of a good deed to an ailing man, as to by whom this man has been made well, 10 let it be known to all of YOU and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ the Naz·a·rene´, whom YOU impaled but whom God raised up from the dead, by this one does this man stand here sound in front of YOU. 11 This is ‘the stone that was treated by YOU builders as of no account that has become the head of the corner.’ 12 Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.”
You might want to throw in Titus 3:6 , Savior is upper case.