Bible discussion
Bible Talk => Apologetics => Topic started by: BCsenior on November 10, 2018, 01:06:19 pm
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At the moment you were born-again …
you were only forgiven of the sins you had committed up to that point in time!
“For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness,
and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his OLD sins.
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call
and election sure, for IF you do these things you will never stumble;
for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting
kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” (2 Peter 1:9-11, NKJV)
“OLD sins” is also in the KJV, RSV, NLT, AMP
“having forgotten his purification from his FORMER sins.” (2 Peter 1:9, NASB)
“FORMER sins” is also in the ESV
“forgetting that they have been cleansed from their PAST sins.” (2 Peter 1:9, NIV)
“PAST sins” is also in the HCSB
Now for some confirming NT passages …
Paul wrote this to the Corinthian church concerning his words of rebuke
in 1 Corinthians that he had sent to them concerning some particular sin(s).
They really needed to be sorrowful and repent.
“… the pain (from his rebuke) caused you to repent and change your ways.
It was the kind of sorrow God wants His people to have, so you were not
harmed by us in any way. For the kind of sorrow God wants us to experience
leads us away from sin and results in salvation. … worldly sorrow, which lacks
repentance, results in spiritual (eternal) death.” (2 Corinthians 7:8-10, NLT)
“Yes, I am afraid that when I come again, God will humble me in your presence.
And I will be grieved because many of you have not given up your old sins.
You have not repented of your impurity, sexual immorality,
and eagerness for lustful pleasure.” (2 Corinthians 12:21, NLT)
Peter is warning believers about God’s destruction of all ungodly and unholy people:
“Then he used the water to destroy the ancient (ungodly) world … the day of judgment,
when ungodly people will be destroyed. … He is being patient for your sake. He does not
want anyone to be destroyed (perish spiritually), but (he) wants everyone to repent.
… what holy and godly lives you should live … (you) make every effort to be found living
peaceful lives that are pure and blameless in his sight. … I am warning you ahead of time
… Be on guard so that you will not be carried away by the errors …” (2 Peter 3:6-17, NLT)
John gives the condition for the Lord to forgive believers’ present sins:
“But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins
and to cleanse us from all wickedness (unrighteousness).” (1 John 1:9, NLT)
“This is an extremely important verse … all men need to be repeatedly purified from all
unrighteousness – from all their sins … We must confess our sins and turn from them
… We must also confess them with our actions … (John) is talking here about repentance
… we must hate our sins and turn from them. This is true repentance.”
(The Applied New Testament Commentary; Dr. Thomas Hale)
2 verses later, John reminds believers to ask Jesus to plead our case before the Father:
“My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin.
But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate who pleads our case before
the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who is truly righteous.” (1 John 2:1, NLT)
Believers are responsible for repenting of their sins after they are born-again!
They have been given the Holy Spirit, a totally new nature, and God’s word.
So, they have been enabled to be victorious overcomers over sin, the world,
and the devil. They have no excuse for failing to do this.
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Hello BC
On two of your verses I prefer to use the NAS.
2 Corinthians 7:8-10
8. For though I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it-- [for] I see that that letter caused you sorrow, though only for a while--
9. I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to [the point of] repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to [the will of] God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.
10. For the sorrow that is according to [the will] [of] God produces a repentance without regret, [leading] to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
2 Corinthians 12:21
21. I am afraid that when I come again my God may humiliate me before you, and I may mourn over many of those who have sinned in the past and not repented of the impurity, immorality and sensuality which they have practiced.
A lot of people will call themselves Christians but they have never repented from their ways. Repentance requires a change of attitude and lifestyle. Everyone that has been saved and lived any decent length of time has sinned again, it is the nature of man. The Christian will not embrace his shortcomings, he will always try to improve his relationship with his Creator. For those people who call themselves Christians and continue to live their old way of life and never actually enter into repentance Christ had this to say about them:
Matthew 7:22-23 NAS
22. "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23. "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
I highlighted where he said "I never knew you", because it shows that these people never were saved, they never knew Christ and Christ never knew them because they never really did repent and turn from their old ways.
I believe strongly that once you are saved you are always saved, it is a work of our Lord Jesus Christ and it cannot be reversed by man or Satan. A true Christian will always try to be close as he can to his Lord, always seeking his favor and forgiveness. This is the new nature of the Christian and his rebirth.
Proof:
John 10:28-29
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand.
John 3:16
16. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Romans 8:38-39
38. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39. nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Hebrews 10:26
26. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Hebrews 6:4-6
4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and [then] have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
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Thanks Fat, for your very insightful reply!
Matthew 7:22-23 NAS
21. "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. (NASB)
22. "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name,
and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23. "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you;
DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
Re: 21 --- Jesus says we must do Father God's will to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Re: 22 --- Jesus is talking to BACs!
Re: 23 --- W. E. Vine says that "knew" here means "approved of".
These BACs did NOT do the will of Father God.
They practiced lawlessness.
They were never approved of by Jesus.
They were NOT allowed to enter the kingdom of heaven.
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Thanks Fat, for your very insightful reply!
Matthew 7:22-23 NAS
21. "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. (NASB)
22. "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name,
and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23. "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you;
DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
Re: 21 --- Jesus says we must do Father God's will to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Re: 22 --- Jesus is talking to BACs!
Re: 23 --- W. E. Vine says that "knew" here means "approved of".
These BACs did NOT do the will of Father God.
They practiced lawlessness.
They were never approved of by Jesus.
They were NOT allowed to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Either way you translate the word “knew” you still have the word “never”. It still comes out never saved.
Let me add that Christ was speaking in the future. THAT DAY, is the day of Judgement.
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Fat,
It just occurred to me ... didn't Jesus approve of them at the moment they received the Holy Spirit?
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If they were never saved then they never did receive the Holy Spirit.
He never knew them.
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No, no, Fat ... you'd better slow down and re-think this!
At the moment they received the Spirit inside,
they became new creations and were starting all over again,
with every possible blessing awaiting them!
They wouldn't be judged badly, etc. at this time.
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No, no, Fat ... you'd better slow down and re-think this!
At the moment they received the Spirit inside,
they became new creations and were starting all over again,
with every possible blessing awaiting them!
They wouldn't be judged badly, etc. at this time.
23. "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you;
DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
G3763 (NEVER) (Strong)
οὐδέποτε
oudepote
oo-dep'-ot-eh
From G3761 and G4218; not even at any time, that is, never at all: - neither at any time, never, nothing at any time.
Total KJV occurrences: 16
John 10:27-30 (KJV)
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
2 Timothy 2:19 (NAS)
19. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
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Okay, Fat, I've had enough ... time to move on.
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Okay, Fat, I've had enough ... time to move on.
Nice taken with you.
God bless
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Can I take a shot at it?
How many times can I be born again and become a new creature?
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How many times can I be born again and become a new creature?
Yes, Hal ... this is a tough one!
All I know is ...
there are multitudes of warnings to the churches about ...
falling away from the faith, falling from grace, drawing back to perdition, etc.
Are these bluffs, exaggerations, lies even?
In a nutshell, I see it as: a gift can be taken back.
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And there’s the problem, I see it as a promise that will never be broken. And Scriptures back me up.
As far as the real Church goes, what did Christ say to Paul?
“I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.”
Matthew 16:18 NASB
Sorry, doing this on my phone, I get sloppy 🤠
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My goodness, Hal, the church prevailing is a whole lot different than every believer prevailing.
What are all of the dire warnings for?
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My goodness, Hal, the church prevailing is a whole lot different than every believer prevailing.
What are all of the dire warnings for?
Exactly, but you brought up the churches not me.
And that is the churches vs The Church . The churches fall away but The Church shall not fall. The Church is the Body of Christ which is the members of the Body. That is you and me brother.
Do you understand who you are?
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I sure do ... I'm a BAC and Spirit-filled also.
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Does anyone know what BAC stands for?
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Does anyone know what BAC stands for?
Born again critic .
Believers against circumcision .
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Born again critic . Believers against circumcision .
Your answers show an alive imagination compared to mine, which is:
Born Again Christian.
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Does anyone know what BAC stands for?
Bad a$$ Catholic
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I sure do ... I'm a BAC and Spirit-filled also.
One in the same:
John 3:5 - NAS
5. Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Acts 2:38 - NAS
38. Peter [said] to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:13 - KJV
13. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Matthew 3:11 - NAS
11. "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Ephesians 4:5 - NAS
5. one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Acts 19:1-6
It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism."
Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.
Titus 3:5 - NAS
5. He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Romans 8:26
26. In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for [us] with groanings too deep for words;
Ephesians 1:13 NAS
13. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
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I'm a BAC and Spirit-filled also.
One in the same:
Actually, if you want the truth (which most people don't want to hear) ...
the term "Spirit-filled" refers to BACs who have been baptized with the Holy Spirit.
Jesus has given these BACs the Spirit to over-flowing (the evidence is tongues).
IOW, BACs have received the Spirit INSIDE, but they are NOT filled.
Spirit-baptized BACs received the Spirit UPON them when they were Spirit-baptized.
This is NOT to be confused with BACs being baptized into the church by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:13).
If this doesn't help you, it may help someone else understand the difference.
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You know that there will be a judgment for the saved when we will be held accountable for our lives as Christians. This is also where good works will be looked at. No one from that judgement will be sent to hell but there will be consequences.
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Forgiveness of sin is a continual process.
Agreed, this is why we ask continualy for forgiveness (daily)
We do this every year on Yom Kippur when we fast and pray for forgiveness.
And if you die the day before Yom Kippur are your sins for that year a ticket to Hell?
This act atones for sins against God in spirit.
Humm no animal sacrifice for your atonement of your sins?
Lev 4:35 And all its fat he shall remove cas the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it on the altar, on top of the Lord’s food offerings. And the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed, and he shall be forgiven.
Lev 5:10 Then he shall offer the second for a burnt offering according to the rule. And the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin that he has committed, and he shall be forgiven.
But there is a new covenant.
John 1:29
The next day he *saw Jesus coming to him and *said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
Hebrews 9:26
Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
Romans 3:25
whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
Ephesians 1:7
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
1 John 2:2
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
Matthew 1:21
She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
Galatians 1:4
who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—
Things like not keeping the dietary laws or working on the Sabbath.
Mark 7:18-24
18. And He said to them, "Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, 19. because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" ([Thus He] declared all foods clean.) 20. And He was saying, "That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. 21. "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22. deeds of coveting [and] wickedness, [as well] [as] deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride [and] foolishness. 23. "All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man." 24. Jesus got up and went away from there to the region of Tyre. And when He had entered a house, He wanted no one to know [of it]; yet He could not escape notice.
If we sin against a person, we also must confess and make restitution to the one we have sinned against.
Agreed!
We also cannot repeat the same mistakes/sins. If you sin against God's person, there is no forgiveness. If you sin against God, you're dead.
If that is the case we are all dead!
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
Ecclesiastes 7:20 Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins.
Romans 3:10 As it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;
But!
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Exodus 32:33. ""...Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book".
Reference to Psalms 69:28. May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.
OT Book of Life vs Lamb’s Book of Life - It is clear that the book of life is now in the Hands of Christ
Revelation 3:5 He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Revelation 13:8. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, [everyone] whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
Revelation 21:27. and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Acts 4:12. "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."
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God is the only one who is good. He is perfect and holy. Sacrifice is only offered and accepted at the Temple in Jerusalem. There hasn't been a Temple in 2000 years. God prefers righteousness over sacrifice. The only commandment Jesus gave as part of his New Covenant was to love each other. We must rely on God's mercy if we die before Yom Kippur. The guilty will be cut off on Judgment Day. They are those who have committed a deadly sin and those who refuse to repent of their sin.
You can’t have it both ways. Either forgiveness is by the the law or by grace.
Non of us can obey the law and none of us Deserves God’s grace.
“The reason is so that the sons of Israel may bring their sacrifices which they were sacrificing in the open field, that they may bring them in to the LORD, at the doorway of the tent of meeting to the priest, and sacrifice them as sacrifices of peace offerings to the LORD.
For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.’”
Leviticus 17:5, 11 NASB
“For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood. For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, “T HIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD COMMANDED YOU.” And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood. And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Hebrews 9:17-22 NASB
You earn your way to heaven by obeying the law or take the grace available through the shedding of Christ blood?
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There is no human substitution for punishment of sin. Everyone will be put to death for their own sin. Jesus said you literally have to eat his body and drink his blood to be saved. John 6:48-58. Drinking blood is not permitted, nor is cannibalism. Jesus was tortured to death which is also against God's law.
You should read the whole book before you make comments like that.
Christ was fully Man and Fully God. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.
NOW READ WHAT WAS BEING SAID!
Luke 22
17 After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among you. 18 For I tell you I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” 19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.
Please don't throw your soul into Satans hands, he is the chief liar. Don't take the route Eve did.