Bible discussion
Bible Talk => General => Topic started by: admin on September 24, 2012, 02:13:54 pm
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A German bishops' decree which has just come into force says anyone failing to pay the tax - an extra 8% of their income tax bill - will no longer be considered a Catholic.
The bishops have been alarmed by the number of Catholics leaving the Church.
They say such a step should be seen as a serious act against the community.
All Germans who are officially registered as Catholics, Protestants or Jews pay a religious tax of 8-9% on their annual income tax bill. The levy was introduced in the 19th Century in compensation for the nationalisation of religious property.
"If your tax bill is for 10,000 euros, then 800 euros will go on top of that and your total tax combined will be 10,800 euros," Munich tax accountant Thomas Zitzelsberger told the BBC news website.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19699581 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19699581)
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All Germans who are officially registered as Catholics, Protestants or Jews pay a religious tax of 8-9% on their annual income tax bill.
Germany's Roman Catholics are to be denied the right to Holy Communion or religious burial if they stop paying a special church tax.
That means they goto hell according to Catholic teaching, right? That's a power even the IRS would like to have 8)
Now I just wonder what Christ would say about that.
Matthew 23:13 KJV
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in .
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A German bishops' decree which has just come into force says anyone failing to pay the tax - an extra 8% of their income tax bill - will no longer be considered a Catholic.
The bishops have been alarmed by the number of Catholics leaving the Church.
They say such a step should be seen as a serious act against the community.
All Germans who are officially registered as Catholics, Protestants or Jews pay a religious tax of 8-9% on their annual income tax bill. The levy was introduced in the 19th Century in compensation for the nationalisation of religious property.
"If your tax bill is for 10,000 euros, then 800 euros will go on top of that and your total tax combined will be 10,800 euros," Munich tax accountant Thomas Zitzelsberger told the BBC news website.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19699581 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19699581)
Your post makes it seem as if this is unique to Catholics. This is not a Catholic rule, it is a German rule. Please don't attempt to slander the Church.
From the article:
All Germans who are officially registered as Catholics, Protestants or Jews pay a religious tax of 8-9% on their annual income tax bill. The levy was introduced in the 19th Century in compensation for the nationalisation of religious property.
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That means they goto hell according to Catholic teaching, right?
Wrong.
Please don't attempt to speak for Catholics.
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Your post makes it seem as if this is unique to Catholics. This is not a Catholic rule, it is a German rule. Please don't attempt to slander the Church.
From the article:
All Germans who are officially registered as Catholics, Protestants or Jews pay a religious tax of 8-9% on their annual income tax bill. The levy was introduced in the 19th Century in compensation for the nationalisation of religious property.
This decision is unique to the Catholics because Protestants and the Jews really don't care what comes out of the Vatican.
Germany's Roman Catholics are to be denied the right to Holy Communion or religious burial if they stop paying a special church tax. "This decree makes clear that one cannot partly leave the Church," Germany's bishops' conference said last week, in a decision endorsed by the Vatican.
Furthermore your quote from the article was in my post if you would've paid attention you would've seen it.
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Wrong.
Please don't attempt to speak for Catholics.
SECTION ONE
THE SACRAMENTAL ECONOMY
CHAPTER ONE
THE PASCHAL MYSTERY IN THE AGE OF THE CHURCH
ARTICLE 2
THE PASCHAL MYSTERY IN THE CHURCH'S SACRAMENTS
1113 The whole liturgical life of the Church revolves around the Eucharistic sacrifice and the sacraments.29 There are seven sacraments in the Church: Baptism, Confirmation or Chrismation, Eucharist, Penance, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony.30 This article will discuss what is common to the Church's seven sacraments from a doctrinal point of view. What is common to them in terms of their celebration will be presented in the second chapter, and what is distinctive about each will be the topic of the Section Two.
I. THE SACRAMENTS OF CHRIST
1114 "Adhering to the teaching of the Holy Scriptures, to the apostolic traditions, and to the consensus . . . of the Fathers," we profess that "the sacraments of the new law were . . . all instituted by Jesus Christ our Lord."31
1115 Jesus' words and actions during his hidden life and public ministry were already salvific, for they anticipated the power of his Paschal mystery. They announced and prepared what he was going to give the Church when all was accomplished. The mysteries of Christ's life are the foundations of what he would henceforth dispense in the sacraments, through the ministers of his Church, for "what was visible in our Savior has passed over into his mysteries."32
1116 Sacraments are "powers that comes forth" from the Body of Christ,33 which is ever-living and life-giving. They are actions of the Holy Spirit at work in his Body, the Church. They are "the masterworks of God" in the new and everlasting covenant.
II. THE SACRAMENTS OF THE CHURCH
1117 As she has done for the canon of Sacred Scripture and for the doctrine of the faith, the Church, by the power of the Spirit who guides her "into all truth," has gradually recognized this treasure received from Christ and, as the faithful steward of God's mysteries, has determined its "dispensation."34 Thus the Church has discerned over the centuries that among liturgical celebrations there are seven that are, in the strict sense of the term, sacraments instituted by the Lord.
1118 The sacraments are "of the Church" in the double sense that they are "by her" and "for her." They are "by the Church," for she is the sacrament of Christ's action at work in her through the mission of the Holy Spirit. They are "for the Church" in the sense that "the sacraments make the Church,"35 since they manifest and communicate to men, above all in the Eucharist, the mystery of communion with the God who is love, One in three persons.
1119 Forming "as it were, one mystical person" with Christ the head, the Church acts in the sacraments as "an organically structured priestly community."36 Through Baptism and Confirmation the priestly people is enabled to celebrate the liturgy, while those of the faithful "who have received Holy Orders, are appointed to nourish the Church with the word and grace of God in the name of Christ."37
1120 The ordained ministry or ministerial priesthood is at the service of the baptismal priesthood.38 The ordained priesthood guarantees that it really is Christ who acts in the sacraments through the Holy Spirit for the Church. The saving mission entrusted by the Father to his incarnate Son was committed to the apostles and through them to their successors: they receive the Spirit of Jesus to act in his name and in his person.39 The ordained minister is the sacramental bond that ties the liturgical action to what the apostles said and did and, through them, to the words and actions of Christ, the source and foundation of the sacraments.
1121 The three sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders confer, in addition to grace, a sacramental character or "seal" by which the Christian shares in Christ's priesthood and is made a member of the Church according to different states and functions. This configuration to Christ and to the Church, brought about by the Spirit, is indelible,40 it remains for ever in the Christian as a positive disposition for grace, a promise and guarantee of divine protection, and as a vocation to divine worship and to the service of the Church. Therefore these sacraments can never be repeated.
III. THE SACRAMENTS OF FAITH
1122 Christ sent his apostles so that "repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to all nations."41 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."42 The mission to baptize, and so the sacramental mission, is implied in the mission to evangelize, because the sacrament is prepared for by the word of God and by the faith which is assent to this word:
The People of God is formed into one in the first place by the Word of the living God. . . . The preaching of the Word is required for the sacramental ministry itself, since the sacraments are sacraments of faith, drawing their origin and nourishment from the Word.43
1123 "The purpose of the sacraments is to sanctify men, to build up the Body of Christ and, finally, to give worship to God. Because they are signs they also instruct. They not only presuppose faith, but by words and objects they also nourish, strengthen, and express it. That is why they are called 'sacraments of faith.'"44
1124 The Church's faith precedes the faith of the believer who is invited to adhere to it. When the Church celebrates the sacraments, she confesses the faith received from the apostles - whence the ancient saying: lex orandi, lex credendi (or: legem credendi lex statuat supplicandi, according to Prosper of Aquitaine [5th cent.]).45 The law of prayer is the law of faith: the Church believes as she prays. Liturgy is a constitutive element of the holy and living Tradition.46
1125 For this reason no sacramental rite may be modified or manipulated at the will of the minister or the community. Even the supreme authority in the Church may not change the liturgy arbitrarily, but only in the obedience of faith and with religious respect for the mystery of the liturgy.
1126 Likewise, since the sacraments express and develop the communion of faith in the Church, the lex orandi is one of the essential criteria of the dialogue that seeks to restore the unity of Christians.47
IV. THE SACRAMENTS OF SALVATION
1127 Celebrated worthily in faith, the sacraments confer the grace that they signify.48 They are efficacious because in them Christ himself is at work: it is he who baptizes, he who acts in his sacraments in order to communicate the grace that each sacrament signifies. The Father always hears the prayer of his Son's Church which, in the epiclesis of each sacrament, expresses her faith in the power of the Spirit. As fire transforms into itself everything it touches, so the Holy Spirit transforms into the divine life whatever is subjected to his power.
1128 This is the meaning of the Church's affirmation49 that the sacraments act ex opere operato (literally: "by the very fact of the action's being performed"), i.e., by virtue of the saving work of Christ, accomplished once for all. It follows that "the sacrament is not wrought by the righteousness of either the celebrant or the recipient, but by the power of God."50 From the moment that a sacrament is celebrated in accordance with the intention of the Church, the power of Christ and his Spirit acts in and through it, independently of the personal holiness of the minister. Nevertheless, the fruits of the sacraments also depend on the disposition of the one who receives them.
1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.51 "Sacramental grace" is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. The Spirit heals and transforms those who receive him by conforming them to the Son of God. The fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature52 by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Savior.
V. THE SACRAMENTS OF ETERNAL LIFE
1130 The Church celebrates the mystery of her Lord "until he comes," when God will be "everything to everyone."53 Since the apostolic age the liturgy has been drawn toward its goal by the Spirit's groaning in the Church: Marana tha!54 The liturgy thus shares in Jesus' desire: "I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you . . . until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God."55 In the sacraments of Christ the Church already receives the guarantee of her inheritance and even now shares in everlasting life, while "awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus."56 The "Spirit and the Bride say, 'Come . . . Come, Lord Jesus!'"57
St. Thomas sums up the various aspects of sacramental signs: "Therefore a sacrament is a sign that commemorates what precedes it - Christ's Passion; demonstrates what is accomplished in us through Christ's Passion - grace; and prefigures what that Passion pledges to us - future glory."58
IN BRIEF
1131 The sacraments are efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us. The visible rites by which the sacraments are celebrated signify and make present the graces proper to each sacrament. They bear fruit in those who receive them with the required dispositions.
1132 The Church celebrates the sacraments as a priestly community structured by the baptismal priesthood and the priesthood of ordained ministers.
1133 The Holy Spirit prepares the faithful for the sacraments by the Word of God and the faith which welcomes that word in well-disposed hearts. Thus the sacraments strengthen faith and express it.
1134 The fruit of sacramental life is both personal and ecclesial. For every one of the faithful on the one hand, this fruit is life for God in Christ Jesus; for the Church, on the other, it is an increase in charity and in her mission of witness.
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SECTION ONE
THE SACRAMENTAL ECONOMY
CHAPTER ONE
THE PASCHAL MYSTERY IN THE AGE OF THE CHURCH
ARTICLE 2
THE PASCHAL MYSTERY IN THE CHURCH'S SACRAMENTS
1113 The whole liturgical life of the Church revolves around the Eucharistic sacrifice and the sacraments.29 There are seven sacraments in the Church: Baptism, Confirmation or Chrismation, Eucharist, Penance, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony.30 This article will discuss what is common to the Church's seven sacraments from a doctrinal point of view. What is common to them in terms of their celebration will be presented in the second chapter, and what is distinctive about each will be the topic of the Section Two.
I. THE SACRAMENTS OF CHRIST
1114 "Adhering to the teaching of the Holy Scriptures, to the apostolic traditions, and to the consensus . . . of the Fathers," we profess that "the sacraments of the new law were . . . all instituted by Jesus Christ our Lord."31
1115 Jesus' words and actions during his hidden life and public ministry were already salvific, for they anticipated the power of his Paschal mystery. They announced and prepared what he was going to give the Church when all was accomplished. The mysteries of Christ's life are the foundations of what he would henceforth dispense in the sacraments, through the ministers of his Church, for "what was visible in our Savior has passed over into his mysteries."32
1116 Sacraments are "powers that comes forth" from the Body of Christ,33 which is ever-living and life-giving. They are actions of the Holy Spirit at work in his Body, the Church. They are "the masterworks of God" in the new and everlasting covenant.
II. THE SACRAMENTS OF THE CHURCH
1117 As she has done for the canon of Sacred Scripture and for the doctrine of the faith, the Church, by the power of the Spirit who guides her "into all truth," has gradually recognized this treasure received from Christ and, as the faithful steward of God's mysteries, has determined its "dispensation."34 Thus the Church has discerned over the centuries that among liturgical celebrations there are seven that are, in the strict sense of the term, sacraments instituted by the Lord.
1118 The sacraments are "of the Church" in the double sense that they are "by her" and "for her." They are "by the Church," for she is the sacrament of Christ's action at work in her through the mission of the Holy Spirit. They are "for the Church" in the sense that "the sacraments make the Church,"35 since they manifest and communicate to men, above all in the Eucharist, the mystery of communion with the God who is love, One in three persons.
1119 Forming "as it were, one mystical person" with Christ the head, the Church acts in the sacraments as "an organically structured priestly community."36 Through Baptism and Confirmation the priestly people is enabled to celebrate the liturgy, while those of the faithful "who have received Holy Orders, are appointed to nourish the Church with the word and grace of God in the name of Christ."37
1120 The ordained ministry or ministerial priesthood is at the service of the baptismal priesthood.38 The ordained priesthood guarantees that it really is Christ who acts in the sacraments through the Holy Spirit for the Church. The saving mission entrusted by the Father to his incarnate Son was committed to the apostles and through them to their successors: they receive the Spirit of Jesus to act in his name and in his person.39 The ordained minister is the sacramental bond that ties the liturgical action to what the apostles said and did and, through them, to the words and actions of Christ, the source and foundation of the sacraments.
1121 The three sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders confer, in addition to grace, a sacramental character or "seal" by which the Christian shares in Christ's priesthood and is made a member of the Church according to different states and functions. This configuration to Christ and to the Church, brought about by the Spirit, is indelible,40 it remains for ever in the Christian as a positive disposition for grace, a promise and guarantee of divine protection, and as a vocation to divine worship and to the service of the Church. Therefore these sacraments can never be repeated.
III. THE SACRAMENTS OF FAITH
1122 Christ sent his apostles so that "repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to all nations."41 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."42 The mission to baptize, and so the sacramental mission, is implied in the mission to evangelize, because the sacrament is prepared for by the word of God and by the faith which is assent to this word:
The People of God is formed into one in the first place by the Word of the living God. . . . The preaching of the Word is required for the sacramental ministry itself, since the sacraments are sacraments of faith, drawing their origin and nourishment from the Word.43
1123 "The purpose of the sacraments is to sanctify men, to build up the Body of Christ and, finally, to give worship to God. Because they are signs they also instruct. They not only presuppose faith, but by words and objects they also nourish, strengthen, and express it. That is why they are called 'sacraments of faith.'"44
1124 The Church's faith precedes the faith of the believer who is invited to adhere to it. When the Church celebrates the sacraments, she confesses the faith received from the apostles - whence the ancient saying: lex orandi, lex credendi (or: legem credendi lex statuat supplicandi, according to Prosper of Aquitaine [5th cent.]).45 The law of prayer is the law of faith: the Church believes as she prays. Liturgy is a constitutive element of the holy and living Tradition.46
1125 For this reason no sacramental rite may be modified or manipulated at the will of the minister or the community. Even the supreme authority in the Church may not change the liturgy arbitrarily, but only in the obedience of faith and with religious respect for the mystery of the liturgy.
1126 Likewise, since the sacraments express and develop the communion of faith in the Church, the lex orandi is one of the essential criteria of the dialogue that seeks to restore the unity of Christians.47
IV. THE SACRAMENTS OF SALVATION
1127 Celebrated worthily in faith, the sacraments confer the grace that they signify.48 They are efficacious because in them Christ himself is at work: it is he who baptizes, he who acts in his sacraments in order to communicate the grace that each sacrament signifies. The Father always hears the prayer of his Son's Church which, in the epiclesis of each sacrament, expresses her faith in the power of the Spirit. As fire transforms into itself everything it touches, so the Holy Spirit transforms into the divine life whatever is subjected to his power.
1128 This is the meaning of the Church's affirmation49 that the sacraments act ex opere operato (literally: "by the very fact of the action's being performed"), i.e., by virtue of the saving work of Christ, accomplished once for all. It follows that "the sacrament is not wrought by the righteousness of either the celebrant or the recipient, but by the power of God."50 From the moment that a sacrament is celebrated in accordance with the intention of the Church, the power of Christ and his Spirit acts in and through it, independently of the personal holiness of the minister. Nevertheless, the fruits of the sacraments also depend on the disposition of the one who receives them.
1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.51 "Sacramental grace" is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. The Spirit heals and transforms those who receive him by conforming them to the Son of God. The fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature52 by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Savior.
V. THE SACRAMENTS OF ETERNAL LIFE
1130 The Church celebrates the mystery of her Lord "until he comes," when God will be "everything to everyone."53 Since the apostolic age the liturgy has been drawn toward its goal by the Spirit's groaning in the Church: Marana tha!54 The liturgy thus shares in Jesus' desire: "I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you . . . until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God."55 In the sacraments of Christ the Church already receives the guarantee of her inheritance and even now shares in everlasting life, while "awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus."56 The "Spirit and the Bride say, 'Come . . . Come, Lord Jesus!'"57
St. Thomas sums up the various aspects of sacramental signs: "Therefore a sacrament is a sign that commemorates what precedes it - Christ's Passion; demonstrates what is accomplished in us through Christ's Passion - grace; and prefigures what that Passion pledges to us - future glory."58
IN BRIEF
1131 The sacraments are efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us. The visible rites by which the sacraments are celebrated signify and make present the graces proper to each sacrament. They bear fruit in those who receive them with the required dispositions.
1132 The Church celebrates the sacraments as a priestly community structured by the baptismal priesthood and the priesthood of ordained ministers.
1133 The Holy Spirit prepares the faithful for the sacraments by the Word of God and the faith which welcomes that word in well-disposed hearts. Thus the sacraments strengthen faith and express it.
1134 The fruit of sacramental life is both personal and ecclesial. For every one of the faithful on the one hand, this fruit is life for God in Christ Jesus; for the Church, on the other, it is an increase in charity and in her mission of witness.
That's a long quote but it doesn't make your point.
FYI: from the Catechism:
819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276
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That's a long quote but it doesn't make your point.
FYI: from the Catechism:
819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276
It absolutely makes my point.
950 Communion of the sacraments. "The fruit of all the sacraments belongs to all the faithful. All the sacraments are sacred links uniting the faithful with one another and binding them to Jesus Christ, and above all Baptism, the gate by which we enter into the Church. The communion of saints must be understood as the communion of the sacraments. . . . The name 'communion' can be applied to all of them, for they unite us to God. . . . But this name is better suited to the Eucharist than to any other, because it is primarily the Eucharist that brings this communion about."483
868 The Church is catholic: she proclaims the fullness of the faith. She bears in herself and administers the totality of the means of salvation. She is sent out to all peoples. She speaks to all men. She encompasses all times. She is "missionary of her very nature".
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
You refused to pay your taxes, mean to refuse to stay in the Church means you can not be saved. :'(
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Do you think someone who willingly and persistently rejects God's will is bound for heaven?
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Do you think someone who willingly and persistently rejects God's will is bound for heaven?
Turning your back on a church that prays to a dead woman is not turning your back on God.
"...Mary, by her spiritual entering into the sacrifice of her divine son for men, made atonement for the sins of man and (de congruon) merited the application of the redemptive grace of Christ. In this manner she cooperates in the subjective redemption of mankind." (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ott, page 213).
Turning your back on a church that calls a man Holy Father in direct contradiction of the teachings of Christ is not turning your back on God. Matthew 23:9 KJV
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Turning your back on a church that prays to a dead woman is not turning your back on God.
Mary is not dead. Jesus said that all who believe and live in him will never die. Do you deny this?
The bible also tells us that the prayers of the righteous are powerful and effective. Why wouldn't we ask fellow believers to pray for us?
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Mary is not dead. Jesus said that all who believe and live in him will never die. Do you deny this?
The bible also tells us that the prayers of the righteous are powerful and effective. Why wouldn't we ask fellow believers to pray for us?
First of all, having a fellow believer praying for you is not the same as praying to a spirit. Second Paul says Mary sleeps, are you saying Paul was a liar?
1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant , brethren, concerning them which are asleep , that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again , even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep . 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
There is a third point, prayer is worship you can only worship one God the Trinity.
"so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother." (Vatican Website: Encyclical of Pope Leo 13th on the Rosary, Octobri Mense, Pope Leo 13th, 1903-1914)
"...when she [Mary] is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son..." (Vatican Council II, p. 420)
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First of all, having a fellow believer praying for you is not the same as praying to a spirit. Second Paul says Mary sleeps, are you saying Paul was a liar?
There is a third point, prayer is worship you can only worship one God the Trinity.
"so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother." (Vatican Website: Encyclical of Pope Leo 13th on the Rosary, Octobri Mense, Pope Leo 13th, 1903-1914)
"...when she [Mary] is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son..." (Vatican Council II, p. 420)
Asking someone to pray for you is not worship.
Jesus said that those who live an believe in him will never die. You apparently think he was lying.
Paul said death would not separate us from the love of Jesus. Apparently you think that believers are cut from the vine when their body dies.
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Asking someone to pray for you is not worship.
Jesus said that those who live an believe in him will never die. You apparently think he was lying.
Paul said death would not separate us from the love of Jesus. Apparently you think that believers are cut from the vine when their body dies.
Praying to someone is worship. You say she is not dead but yet you Pray to her as someone who is holy and without sin. This is worship in anybody's book, you even go as far as to build statues of her.
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Praying to someone is worship. You say she is not dead but yet you Pray to her as someone who is holy and without sin. This is worship in anybody's book, you even go as far as to build statues of her.
Praying to saints is not worship, it is a request for prayers to the righteous.
The Catholic Church explicitly forbids worshiping anyone but God.
Sorry, you are wrong again. It would be better if you didn't try to speak for the Catholic Church when it is clear you don't know or understand Catholic doctrine.
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Praying to saints is not worship, it is a request for prayers to the righteous.
The Catholic Church explicitly forbids worshiping anyone but God.
Sorry, you are wrong again. It would be better if you didn't try to speak for the Catholic Church when it is clear you don't know or understand Catholic doctrine.
Holy Mary,
help those in need,
give strength to the weak,
comfort the sorrowful,
pray for God's people,
assist the clergy,
intercede for religious.
Mary all who seek your help
experience your unfailing protection.
Amen.
O Mary, recall the solemn moment when Jesus,
your divine Son, dying on the Cross,
confided us to your maternal care.
You are our Mother, we desire ever to remain your devout children.
Let us therefore feel the effects of your powerful intercession with Jesus Christ.
make your Name again glorious in the shrine once renowned throughout England by your visits, favours, and many miracles.
Pray, O holy Mother of God, for the conversion of England, restoration of the sick, consolation for the afflicted, repentance of sinners, peace to the departed.
O blessed Mary, Mother of God, our Lady of Walsingham, intercede for us.
Amen.
http://www.marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm (http://www.marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm)
That is what we call worship in the real world and it is blasphemy to Christ and the Christian faith.
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Holy Mary,
help those in need,
give strength to the weak,
comfort the sorrowful,
pray for God's people,
assist the clergy,
intercede for religious.
Mary all who seek your help
experience your unfailing protection.
Amen.
O Mary, recall the solemn moment when Jesus,
your divine Son, dying on the Cross,
confided us to your maternal care.
You are our Mother, we desire ever to remain your devout children.
Let us therefore feel the effects of your powerful intercession with Jesus Christ.
make your Name again glorious in the shrine once renowned throughout England by your visits, favours, and many miracles.
Pray, O holy Mother of God, for the conversion of England, restoration of the sick, consolation for the afflicted, repentance of sinners, peace to the departed.
O blessed Mary, Mother of God, our Lady of Walsingham, intercede for us.
Amen.
http://www.marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm (http://www.marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm)
That is what we call worship in the real world and it is blasphemy to Christ and the Christian faith.
You can call it a dead dog, but it won't change reality.
Do you know what it means to intercede?
Exposing your ignorance for the world to read doesn't advance your argument. Sorry.
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You can call it a dead dog, but it won't change reality.
Do you know what it means to intercede?
Exposing your ignorance for the world to read doesn't advance your argument. Sorry.
To each his own.
1 John 2:1 NAS
[Christ Is Our Advocate] My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous ;
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To each his own.
1 John 2:1 NAS
[Christ Is Our Advocate] My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous ;
No kidding. And the sky is blue!
Do you think this means that we shouldn't pray for each other?
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No kidding. And the sky is blue!
Do you think this means that we shouldn't pray for each other?
Pray for each other not to each other. I can't understand why you are incapable to understand the deference.
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Pray for each other not to each other. I can't understand why you are incapable to understand the deference.
Pray just means request. Get a dictionary.
When Christians pray to the saints they are making a prayer request just as we might do with a friend still here on earth.
FYI:
970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."513 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."514
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970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."513 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."514
Can't find this in the Bible, can you source it please?
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Can't find this in the Bible, can you source it please?
This is from the Catechism.
I posted it so that others reading this would know that you were misrepresenting Catholic teaching.
I'm not sure why you think it helps your case to lie about what the Catholic Church teaches.
I'm sure that there are some legitimate differences in doctrine between our faiths. Why don't you focus on those?
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Why would anyone want to pray through Mary when Christ gives you a direct line to our Father?
Prayer Promises
John 16:23 "In that day you will not question Me about anything. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you. 24 "Until now you have asked for nothing in My name ; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full. 25 "These things I have spoken to you in figurative language ; an hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but will tell you plainly of the Father. 26 "In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf ; 27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came forth from the Father. 28 "I came forth from the Father and have come into the world ; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father."
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Why would anyone want to pray through Mary when Christ gives you a direct line to our Father?
Prayer Promises
John 16:23 "In that day you will not question Me about anything. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you. 24 "Until now you have asked for nothing in My name ; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full. 25 "These things I have spoken to you in figurative language ; an hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but will tell you plainly of the Father. 26 "In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf ; 27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came forth from the Father. 28 "I came forth from the Father and have come into the world ; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father."
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, will accumulate teachers for themselves because they have an itch to hear something new. 4 They will turn away from hearing the truth and will turn aside to myths.
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Why would anyone want to pray through Mary when Christ gives you a direct line to our Father?
Because we believe the bible when it says the the prayers of the righteous are powerful and effective. Some protestants have rejected the communion of the saints, which is a shame.
Martin Luther didn't even go that far!
One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. (Martin Luther: Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521).
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Because we believe the bible when it says the the prayers of the righteous are powerful and effective. Some protestants have rejected the communion of the saints, which is a shame.
Martin Luther didn't even go that far!
One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. (Martin Luther: Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521).
In John 16 Christ tells us to ask in His name, where in the Bible does say to ask in Mary's name? Show me the John 16 (any scripture) that refers to Mary.
Christ is giving you such an opportunity to communicate directly with the Father and you turn your back on it! Or is it that the church only recognizes one holy father, the pope.
There is a Catholic channel on cable TV the Spends an hour every Sunday showing 20 to 25 nuns repeating the following:
Hail Mary, full of grace.
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou amongst women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.
Over and over. If it wasn't being broadcast on TV I would say no big deal.
matthew 6:5 "Whenever you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by people. I assure you: They've got their reward! 6 But when you pray, go into your private room, shut your door, and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. 7 When you pray, don't babble like the idolaters, since they imagine they'll be heard for their many words. 8 Don't be like them, because your Father knows the things you need before you ask Him.
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In John 16 Christ tells us to ask in His name, where in the Bible does say to ask in Mary's name? Show me the John 16 (any scripture) that refers to Mary.
Christ is giving you such an opportunity to communicate directly with the Father and you turn your back on it! Or is it that the church only recognizes one holy father, the pope.
There is a Catholic channel on cable TV the Spends an hour every Sunday showing 20 to 25 nuns repeating the following:
Hail Mary, full of grace.
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou amongst women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.
Over and over. If it wasn't being broadcast on TV I would say no big deal.
matthew 6:5 "Whenever you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by people. I assure you: They've got their reward! 6 But when you pray, go into your private room, shut your door, and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. 7 When you pray, don't babble like the idolaters, since they imagine they'll be heard for their many words. 8 Don't be like them, because your Father knows the things you need before you ask Him.
The Rosary is not vane repitition. It is a prayer of the gospel.
The bible tells us to seek the prayers of the righteous. Do you?
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The Rosary is not vane repitition. It is a prayer of the gospel.
The bible tells us to seek the prayers of the righteous. Do you?
6 But when you pray, go into your private room, shut your door, and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
I can see where that verse is so hard to understand.
I seek the groaning of the Spirit, do you?
Romans 8:26-28, "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit Itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because He maketh intercession for the saints according the will of God. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to His purpose."
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6 But when you pray, go into your private room, shut your door, and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
I can see where that verse is so hard to understand.
I seek the groaning of the Spirit, do you?
Romans 8:26-28, "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit Itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because He maketh intercession for the saints according the will of God. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to His purpose."
There are many ways to pray, including intercession as Paul points out. Jesus also said to pray like this widow, with persistance:
Luke 18
18 Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. 2 He said: “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought. 3 And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, ‘Grant me justice against my adversary.’
4 “For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, ‘Even though I don’t fear God or care what people think, 5 yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won’t eventually come and attack me!’”
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There are many ways to pray, including intercession as Paul points out. Jesus also said to pray like this widow, with persistance:
Luke 18
18 Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. 2 He said: “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought. 3 And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, ‘Grant me justice against my adversary.’
4 “For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, ‘Even though I don’t fear God or care what people think, 5 yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won’t eventually come and attack me!’”
There are many ways to pray, including intercession as Paul points out. Jesus also said to pray like this widow, with persistance:
Luke 18
18 Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. 2 He said: “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought. 3 And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, ‘Grant me justice against my adversary.’
4 “For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, ‘Even though I don’t fear God or care what people think, 5 yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won’t eventually come and attack me!’”
Is this not an order from Christ?
But when you pray, go into your private room, shut your door, and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
Are those nuns on TV that give this prayer over and over for 30 mins obeying that order?
Hail Mary, full of grace.
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou amongst women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.
I am beginning to understand why the church kept your Bible in Latin for so long.
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Is this not an order from Christ?
But when you pray, go into your private room, shut your door, and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
Are those nuns on TV that give this prayer over and over for 30 mins obeying that order?
Hail Mary, full of grace.
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou amongst women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.
I am beginning to understand why the church kept your Bible in Latin for so long.
Jesus gave many instructions for prayer, including the passage I gave you above, which you have ignored. Jesus also gave us the Lord's Prayer. Do you pray this prayer?
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Jesus gave many instructions for prayer, including the passage I gave you above, which you have ignored. Jesus also gave us the Lord's Prayer. Do you pray this prayer?
No that was not His instructions.
matthew 6:9 "Therefore, you should pray like this: Our Father in heaven, Your name be honored as holy.
He wants you to pray from your heart not from memorization. Don't they teach you that in your church?
Just a note we refer to the Lords prayer as John 17.
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No that was not His instructions.
matthew 6:9 "Therefore, you should pray like this: Our Father in heaven, Your name be honored as holy.
He wants you to pray from your heart not from memorization. Don't they teach you that in your church?
Just a note we refer to the Lords prayer as John 17.
Catholics pray frequently in many ways.
We pray the Lord's Prayer at every mass, as Jesus instructed. We also spend much time in quite reflective prayer.
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Catholics pray frequently in many ways.
We pray the Lord's Prayer at every mass, as Jesus instructed. We also spend much time in quite reflective prayer.
I can tell.
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I can tell.
Then what is your point?