Bible discussion
Bible Talk => Sound doctrine => Topic started by: macuser on July 28, 2013, 12:44:25 pm
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Does the Bible teaches that man is totally depraved and that there's no good to be found in him?
Genesis 6:5
Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. NAS
The word continually used here leaves not much doubt, let's see what other version say.
The LORD saw how bad the sins of man had become on the earth. All of the thoughts in his heart were always directed only toward what was evil. NIV
And Jehovah seeth that abundant [is] the wickedness of man in the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart only evil all the day; YLT
I really believe that this is man without the Holy Spirit, what do you think?
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I think that the scriptures tell us that mans mind is depraved 24/7. Sometimes the unsaved man does what appears to be good but if you examine it closely you will usually find he does it for his own glory or benefit.
(New American Standard)
Job 15:16 How much less one who is detestable and corrupt, Man, who drinks iniquity like water !
Psalm 14:3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt ; There is no one who does good, not even one.
Psalm 53:3 Every one of them has turned aside ; together they have become corrupt ; There is no one who does good, not even one.
Ecclesiastes 8:11 Because the sentence against an evil deed is not executed quickly, therefore the hearts of the sons of men among them are given fully to do evil.
Romans 3:10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE ;
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John 8:44 You are of your father the Devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and has not stood in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks from his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of liars.
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A couple of things I would like to look at here, the first is our nature and lack of spiritual good before God. In Romans 7:18 Paul says, " I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh". In Titus 1:15 Paul states, " to the corrupt and unbelieving nothing is pure; they're very minds and consciences are corrupt".
I think it's pretty clear that Paul is telling us that we is a natural man lack any spiritual good. He goes on in Romans 8:8 to say, " those who are in the flesh cannot please God".
The author of Hebrews has this to say in Hebrews 11:6, "without faith it is impossible to please him". So it is also obvious that only the believers who have faith can please God.
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Man needs Jesus to have salvation, he is not good enough to get salvation on His on.
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New American Standard
Job 20:12-13 "Though evil is sweet in his mouth And he hides it under his tongue, Though he desires it and will not let it go, But holds it in his mouth,
Ps 36:4 He plans wickedness upon his bed ; He sets himself on a path that is not good ; He does not despise evil.
Prov 4:16-17 For they cannot sleep unless they do evil ; And they are robbed of sleep unless they make someone stumble. For they eat the bread of wickedness And drink the wine of violence.
John 3:19-20 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
John 12:43 for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.
Hosea 4:8 They feed on the sin of My people And direct their desire toward their iniquity.
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Man needs Jesus to have salvation, he is not good enough to get salvation on His on.
What about Acts 2:40b, "Save yourselves from this untoward generation."? It is my opinion that the doctrine of "total" depravity shifts responsibility. Negating the individual's responsibility not to have the faith to use the narrow gate in spite of the fact of the Lord saying "Make every effort to enter through the gate." The issue is not weather man is good enough or bad enough. Salvation from serving the penalty of eternal death is predicated upon first hearing their message and then obeying what has been established as a unilateral requirement in regard to the sin of Jesus' having been crucified.
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What about Acts 2:40b, "Save yourselves from this untoward generation."? It is my opinion that the doctrine of "total" depravity shifts responsibility. Negating the individual's responsibility not to have the faith to use the narrow gate in spite of the fact of the Lord saying "Make every effort to enter through the gate." The issue is not weather man is good enough or bad enough. Salvation from serving the penalty of eternal death is predicated upon first hearing their message and then obeying what has been established as a unilateral requirement in regard to the sin of Jesus' having been crucified.
Man is responsible for his sin, YES.
Is man capable of a life without sin, NO.
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Man is responsible for his sin, YES.
Is man capable of a life without sin, NO.
So then what is the sin that was repented of to obey the Acts 2:38 command as their message's requirement for salvation and is it a sin for the other individuals who refuse to repent of this sin?
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So then what is the sin that was repented of to obey the Acts 2:38 command as their message's requirement for salvation and is it a sin for the other individuals who refuse to repent of this sin?
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Romans 7:12-14 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and just and good.
The Problem of Sin in Us
13 Therefore, did what is good cause my death? Absolutely not! On the contrary, sin, in order to be recognized as sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that through the commandment sin might become sinful beyond measure. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am made out of flesh, sold into sin's power.
Not THIS SIN but all sin.
1 John 1:7 CSB
But if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
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1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Romans 7:12-14 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and just and good.
The Problem of Sin in Us
13 Therefore, did what is good cause my death? Absolutely not! On the contrary, sin, in order to be recognized as sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that through the commandment sin might become sinful beyond measure. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am made out of flesh, sold into sin's power.
Not THIS SIN but all sin.
1 John 1:7 CSB
But if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
Your reply is an evasion in regard to my previous question.
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Your reply is an evasion in regard to my previous question.
It really doesn't matter if failure to repent is a sin or not. No repentance - No forgiveness.
You violate one commandment you violate all.
You disagree?
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It really doesn't matter if failure to repent is a sin or not. No repentance - No forgiveness.
You violate one commandment you violate all.
You disagree?
Didn't I say in regard to your OP that inculcation of "total depravity" will allow a shift from individual responsibility?
Correct obedience of the Acts 2:38 command is only relative to a sin, i.e. one particular sin. Which sin?
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Didn't I say in regard to your OP that inculcation of "total depravity" will allow a shift from individual responsibility?
Correct obedience of the Acts 2:38 command is only relative to a sin, i.e. one particular sin. Which sin?
"Repent," Peter said to them, "and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. HCS
Then Peter said unto them, Repent , and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. KJV
Sorry but it's plural.
1 Cor. 4:6
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"Repent," Peter said to them, "and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. HCS
Then Peter said unto them, Repent , and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. KJV
Sorry but it's plural.
1 Cor. 4:6
Incorrect! What is the corporate sin they had committed about forty five to fifty days previously and was brought to their minds in Acts 2:36 that cut, circumcised their hearts, individually? The totally depraved always give the wrong answer and go beyond what is written to shift his responsibility from obeying God in regard to sin of Jesus' crucifixion.
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Incorrect! What is the corporate sin they had committed about forty five to fifty days previously and was brought to their minds in Acts 2:36 that cut, circumcised their hearts, individually? The totally depraved always give the wrong answer and go beyond what is written to shift his responsibility from obeying God in regard to sin of Jesus' crucifixion.
For, behold , the days are coming , in the which they shall say , Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare , and the paps which never gave suck . Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us. For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry? And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death . And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do . And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. And the people stood beholding . And the rulers also with them derided him, saying , He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God. And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar, And saying , If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself. And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS. And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying , If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
Are you telling us that the Father turned down the Son's request?
1 Cor. 4:6
"Repent," Peter said to them, "and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Sorry but it's still plural.
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For, behold , the days are coming , in the which they shall say , Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare , and the paps which never gave suck . Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us. For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry? And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death . And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do . And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. And the people stood beholding . And the rulers also with them derided him, saying , He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God. And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar, And saying , If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself. And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS. And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying , If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
Are you telling us that the Father turned down the Son's request?
1 Cor. 4:6
"Repent," Peter said to them, "and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Sorry but it's still plural.
Us, US! you mean Legion? Sorry I thought I was corresponding with an irresponsible human individual. God who is the father of his only begotten son, Jesus, most certainly did not turn down his sons' request. However God's Way of going about things is not by your pitiful human agenda. Comprenda?
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Us, US! you mean Legion? Sorry I thought I was corresponding with an irresponsible human individual. God who is the father of his only begotten son, Jesus, most certainly did not turn down his sons' request. However God's Way of going about things is not by your pitiful human agenda. Comprenda?
Question, can you read?
And the rulers also with them derided him, saying , He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God. And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar, And saying , If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself. And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS. And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying , If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
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Us, US! you mean Legion? Sorry I thought I was corresponding with an irresponsible human individual. God who is the father of his only begotten son, Jesus, most certainly did not turn down his sons' request. However God's Way of going about things is not by your pitiful human agenda. Comprenda?
Now there is a post loaded with Biblical facts :)
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Us, US! you mean Legion? Sorry I thought I was corresponding with an irresponsible human individual. God who is the father of his only begotten son, Jesus, most certainly did not turn down his sons' request. However God's Way of going about things is not by your pitiful human agenda. Comprenda?
When you post on a forum you are addressing all the members, I am one of the 'us' verstehen?
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Question, can you read?
Obviously I can read.
Now that the class has checked in; what is the factoid of guilt in regard to which sin that prompted the question "Brothers what shall we do?" in Acts 2:37. Bearing in mind it is the pre-extant fact that the Holy Spirit's ministry is by the predetermined purpose of God purpose to convict the world of guilt in regard to a sin. Jn. 16:8 What is the sin?
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Incorrect! What is the corporate sin they had committed about forty five to fifty days previously and was brought to their minds in Acts 2:36 that cut, circumcised their hearts, individually? The totally depraved always give the wrong answer and go beyond what is written to shift his responsibility from obeying God in regard to sin of Jesus' crucifixion.
Do corporate sins get corporate punishment?
Will you be charged with this nations sins, like 52,000,000 abortions?
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Obviously I can read.
Now that the class has checked in; what is the factoid of guilt in regard to which sin that prompted the question "Brothers what shall we do?" in Acts 2:37. Bearing in mind it is the pre-extant fact that the Holy Spirit's ministry is by the predetermined purpose of God purpose to convict the world of guilt in regard to a sin. Jn. 16:8 What is the sin?
I have to agree with JB, Peter's answer was in for all sins. You can try to rewrite the Scripture but you're going to need a big eraser or a lot of whiteout.
Could they be forgiven with out the blood of the Cross? If not you really don't have a point to make, do you?
"Repent," Peter said to them, "and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
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I have to agree with JB, Peter's answer was in for all sins. You can try to rewrite the Scripture but you're going to need a big eraser or a lot of whiteout.
Could they be forgiven with out the blood of the Cross? If not you really don't have a point to make, do you?
"Repent," Peter said to them, "and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
If it were by the faith of repenting of sins, plural, for the forgiveness of sins then John's reason for baptism should also have resulted in receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. But that did not happen either before Jesus was crucified nor after. Whenever John's system of faith is the practice no practitioner of that system of faith is granted the gift of being united with God by his Spirit. The exemplars are Acts 18:24-26, and Acts 19:1-7. "Do not go beyond what is written.", because you can't. Apollos and those twelve men were corrected from the same error you are insisting is the way into God's kingdom, but it is not.
Class what is the sin those on the day of Pentecost repented of in order to be forgiven of their past sins? The correct answer is a sin not sins. Never will any of you be the recipient of the gift of the Holy Spirit on the basis of repenting of sins just as those twelve in Acts 19 didn't either.
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If it were by the faith of repenting of sins, plural, for the forgiveness of sins then John's reason for baptism should also have resulted in receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. But that did not happen either before Jesus was crucified nor after. Whenever John's system of faith is the practice no practitioner of that system of faith is granted the gift of being united with God by his Spirit. The exemplars are Acts 18:24-26, and Acts 19:1-7. "Do not go beyond what is written.", because you can't. Apollos and those twelve men were corrected from the same error you are insisting is the way into God's kingdom, but it is not.
Class what is the sin those on the day of Pentecost repented of in order to be forgiven of their past sins? The correct answer is a sin not sins. Never will any of you be the recipient of the gift of the Holy Spirit on the basis of repenting of sins just as those twelve in Acts 19 didn't either.
As usual the Rev. Jones wants to put the horse before the cart. Either that or he's forgetting that there are two types of baptism, one done by Christ and one done by actions of man.You do not receive one baptism by receiving the other. In other words if you are baptized by water this is not mean you will receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Of course on this board we try to be biblical and point things out and I tried to change the Scriptures the suit are ill formed documents.
So what point is someone baptized by the Holy Spirit? Let's take a look at the Scriptures.
Acts 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. 43 To him give all the prophets witness , that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished , as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized , which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Make a note that the above Scriptures are talking about Gentiles receiving the Holy Ghost before water baptism. Also note that not all heard the word but those that did receive the spirit. This falls in line with John 6:44-45 given to us by Christ.
I'm going to let the Rev. Jones point out Acts 8:17
Now the Rev. Jones claims that apparently everyone but him teaches a false doctrine on the path, which we both agree is narrow, to the kingdom of God. (Matthew 7:14)
What do we teach? John 14:6 Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me
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As usual the Rev. Jones wants to put the horse before the cart. Either that or he's forgetting that there are two types of baptism, one done by Christ and one done by actions of man.You do not receive one baptism by receiving the other. In other words if you are baptized by water this is not mean you will receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Of course on this board we try to be biblical and point things out and I tried to change the Scriptures the suit are ill formed documents.
So what point is someone baptized by the Holy Spirit? Let's take a look at the Scriptures.
Acts 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. 43 To him give all the prophets witness , that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished , as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized , which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Make a note that the above Scriptures are talking about Gentiles receiving the Holy Ghost before water baptism. Also note that not all heard the word but those that did receive the spirit. This falls in line with John 6:44-45 given to us by Christ.
I'm going to let the Rev. Jones point out Acts 8:17
Now the Rev. Jones claims that apparently everyone but him teaches a false doctrine on the path, which we both agree is narrow, to the kingdom of God. (Matthew 7:14)
What do we teach? John 14:6 Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me
What is the sin that was repented of at Pentecost in regard to the message they heard on that day? In case you haven't noticed it is commanded "Give to the one who asks you." Answer the question.
As usual the Rev. Jones wants to put the horse before the cart. Either that or he's forgetting that there are two types of baptism, one done by Christ and one done by actions of man.You do not receive one baptism by receiving the other. In other words if you are baptized by water this is not mean you will receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Of course on this board we try to be biblical and point things out and I tried to change the Scriptures the suit are ill formed documents.
So what point is someone baptized by the Holy Spirit? Let's take a look at the Scriptures.
Acts 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. 43 To him give all the prophets witness , that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished , as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized , which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Make a note that the above Scriptures are talking about Gentiles receiving the Holy Ghost before water baptism. Also note that not all heard the word but those that did receive the spirit. This falls in line with John 6:44-45 given to us by Christ.
I'm going to let the Rev. Jones point out Acts 8:17
Now the Rev. Jones claims that apparently everyone but him teaches a false doctrine on the path, which we both agree is narrow, to the kingdom of God. (Matthew 7:14)
What do we teach? John 14:6 Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me
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You guys are so off the topic it's hard to believe it's the same OP.
With the power invested in me, I here by shut this thread down!