Bible discussion
Bible Talk => Christian Walk => Topic started by: biblebuf on December 03, 2011, 06:13:02 pm
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What does God say about life in the womb?
KEY BIBLE VERSE: Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. (Jeremiah 1:5 )
Persons have worth even before they are born. God knew you, as he knew Jeremiah, long before you were born or even conceived. He knew you, thought about you, and planned for you. When you feel discouraged or inadequate, remember that God has always thought of you as valuable and has had a purpose in mind for you.
KEY BIBLE VERSE: For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. (Psalm 139:13-14 )
God is at work in a person’s life even while in the womb. God’s character goes into the creation of every person. When you feel worthless or even begin to hate yourself, remember that God’s Spirit is ready and willing to work within you. God thinks of you constantly (Psalm 139:1-4 ). We should have as much respect for ourselves as our Maker has for us.
What is behind the practice of abortion today?
KEY BIBLE VERSE: Ahaz was twenty years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem sixteen years. Unlike David his father, he did not do what was right in the eyes of the Lord. (2 Chronicles 28:1)
Abortion is a sin against God. Imagine the monstrous evil of a religion that offers young children as sacrifices. God allowed Judah to suffer heavy casualties in response to Ahaz’s evil practices. Even today the practice hasn’t abated. The sacrifice of children to the harsh gods of convenience, economy, and whim continues in sterile medical facilities in numbers that would astound even the wicked Ahaz. If we are to allow children to come to Christ (Matthew 19:14 ), we must first allow them to come into the world.
From Handbook of Bible Application
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So,of whom was Jeremiah writing as he was inspired?
Folks like to generalize passages and take them out of context.
We can follow your logic and apply such generalizations to Ted Bundy, Saddam, the Ayatollahs, Hitler, and other such lovely characters of history.
Even though God formed Jeremiah in the womb, it does not make any argument one way or the other with respect to abortion. It does not set forth when life began.
However, we can consider another time when God formed a man. It was in the Garden - set eastward in Eden. But, it was not until God breathed into him the breath of life that Adam became a living soul.
Establish relevance to the subject, then you can run with it.
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So,of whom was Jeremiah writing as he was inspired?
Folks like to generalize passages and take them out of context.
We can follow your logic and apply such generalizations to Ted Bundy, Saddam, the Ayatollahs, Hitler, and other such lovely characters of history.
Even though God formed Jeremiah in the womb, it does not make any argument one way or the other with respect to abortion. It does not set forth when life began.
However, we can consider another time when God formed a man. It was in the Garden - set eastward in Eden. But, it was not until God breathed into him the breath of life that Adam became a living soul.
Establish relevance to the subject, then you can run with it.
I think the author is making an excellent point with God's quote to Jeremiah.
Note that God said that Knew Jeremiah even before he was for formed in the womb. Even before Jeremiah was conceived God had a relationship with him.
You say that things should be made relevant to the discussion, then you must be saying that Adam could have been aborted? Could the dust be taken from God's hand and have been cast into a waste can?
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So,of whom was Jeremiah writing as he was inspired?
Folks like to generalize passages and take them out of context.
We can follow your logic and apply such generalizations to Ted Bundy, Saddam, the Ayatollahs, Hitler, and other such lovely characters of history.
Even though God formed Jeremiah in the womb, it does not make any argument one way or the other with respect to abortion. It does not set forth when life began.
However, we can consider another time when God formed a man. It was in the Garden - set eastward in Eden. But, it was not until God breathed into him the breath of life that Adam became a living soul.
Establish relevance to the subject, then you can run with it.
Hello,
So when does life begin?
It is the question is it not, because if you take an innocent life it is murder in God's eyes.
I would hate to stand infront of God and tell Him that I dicided that the fetus was nothing but a mass of dead flesh when God was in the prosses of forming it into His own likeness.
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Knowing someone is not, as you put it, having a relationship with someone.
(And where did all this "relationship" stuff come from?)
I'm sure there are a lot of things we won't want to stand before God to explain. Nevertheless, it is irrelevant to the discussion. How we feel matters little before the truth.
This is a "religious" topic obviously.
Quote of the day:
"Religion is what man does to The Truth."
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Knowing someone is not, as you put it, having a relationship with someone.
(And where did all this "relationship" stuff come from?)
Are you asking if God can have a relationship with the unborn? He elects to love by His sovereign right even before birth.
Rom 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
So now please answer my question, it is after all to the relevance of your reference to Adam.
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Knowing someone is not, as you put it, having a relationship with someone.
(And where did all this "relationship" stuff come from?)
I'm sure there are a lot of things we won't want to stand before God to explain. Nevertheless, it is irrelevant to the discussion. How we feel matters little before the truth.
This is a "religious" topic obviously.
Quote of the day:
"Religion is what man does to The Truth."
When life begins determines when it is possable to murder it. Murder cannot be committed on something that is not alive. It is very relevant because it is a moral question.
Now is someone alive when God has began His work in the womb or not?
When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
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With respect Adam, it is written:
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
When the breath of life entered Adam, he became a living soul. That's when his life began. (His life a man, human, person)
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With respect Adam, it is written:
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
When the breath of life entered Adam, he became a living soul. That's when his life began. (His life a man, human, person)
Not relivent Proa42, Adam was not born by the womb and not from a mother who was already live and breathing.
Too bad you don't want to apply yourself. This is not about Adam who was not born of man.
It's about knowing the Word.
Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
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The answer with was with respect to Adam. Done
Now, to answer the life-in-the-womb question.
If aborting a fetus were the same a killing a person, then would the punishment be the same -- Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.
When a person kills a person, it is life for life. Not so for still born caused by a violent act.
Now it is in the BOOK, but I would not expect most of the site users to go looking for it, so I'll just say -- It is in there.
Life is walking in Truth, and Religion is what man does to Truth.
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The answer with was with respect to Adam. Done
Now, to answer the life-in-the-womb question.
If aborting a fetus were the same a killing a person, then would the punishment be the same -- Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.
When a person kills a person, it is life for life. Not so for still born caused by a violent act.
Now it is in the BOOK, but I would not expect most of the site users to go looking for it, so I'll just say -- It is in there.
Life is walking in Truth, and Religion is what man does to Truth.
If you're going to bring in Exodus 21 into this discussion, you're going to have to redefine murder as an accidental death to make your point. Good luck.
Why is the same word is used for the child before and after birth Brephos, that is, "infant," is used in Luke 1:41 and Luke 18:15.
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Today being the 39th anniversary of the Supreme Court legalizing abortion in America, I thought I would jump in here and say something.
I like to start off with a few facts. In the past 39 years America has had 52 million abortions. If the abortions went on seven days a week every week that is over 3600 abortions a day. This is not about rape or incest or the life of the mother. If you like to know what abortions are about listen to those who are pro-abortion. They even call this the right of free choice, or woman's control over their own body.
I would expect that all Christians would be alerted to what the purpose of abortion is in listening to these people. What they are saying is they do not want to be responsible for the consequences of the actions that follow the works of the flesh. I cannot follow the logic of any Christian that believes that his body belongs to himself and not God. But apparently reading some of the posts on this board and others, many self acclaimed Christians believe that their bodies do belong to themselves and not God.
On judgment day I just wonder if these people find out that these abortions they've committed or participated in were actually sacrifices to Satan, what a horrible discovery that would be.
Bob Dude
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Most of the discussion regarding where life begins is framed within the Old Testament. And, within that context we also find all the other teachings of God, which are relevant. Therefore we should also recognize that within the context of the "Law", this subject should never become an issue. Not because there were no clinics, nor because they were so enlightened, but because both the woman and fetus would be aborted - by law - along with the father.
Deut. 22
", , , , the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
(22)
If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.
(23)
If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
No questions as to whether she is pregnant, here. You may have your feelings about this, but it is very clear that the possibility of a terminated pregnancy was/is a reality.
No way to know if a woman was pregnant for quite a while, back then.
Abortion was required when chastity failed.
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Most of the discussion regarding where life begins is framed within the Old Testament. And, within that context we also find all the other teachings of God, which are relevant. Therefore we should also recognize that within the context of the "Law", this subject should never become an issue. Not because there were no clinics, nor because they were so enlightened, but because both the woman and fetus would be aborted - by law - along with the father.
Deut. 22
", , , , the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
(22)
If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.
(23)
If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
No questions as to whether she is pregnant, here. You may have your feelings about this, but it is very clear that the possibility of a terminated pregnancy was/is a reality.
No way to know if a woman was pregnant for quite a while, back then.
Abortion was required when chastity failed.
First your text is not relevant to abortion. If abortion would have been available would it make sense to first abort the child and then stone the mother?
Second at what point was the mother given the choice to kill the child? It was not her choice!
No, your scriptures shows us that God makes the decision who dies and who lives. REMEMBER THE FLOOD?
Bob was right in his post, abortion is about the woman wanting to choose not to take responsibility for her actions of the flesh.
Abortion was required when chastity failed.
And that is what the great righteous man takes from these verses. Sad.
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The original question was, "What does God say about life in the womb?" I think this fits within the pale.
You do introduce the true issue here.
It is about responsibility. Abortion is the symptom.
Why is the church involved in cleaning up after, instead of focusing on prevention. As for those outside the body, "What have we to do with those who are without?"
For "them" it is tantamount to offering up their children to Molech. However, it is "self" instead of a wooden idol. ( This is a condition found in the religious community as well -- evidenced by the pervasiveness of first-person lyrics in "worship" songs - I, me, we.)
Within the body, it is a problem of holiness, or more correctly, the lack of holiness. The focus should be on the religious communities tolerance of adultery and fornication within the body of Christ.
But, that is another discussion.
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Why is the church involved in cleaning up after, instead of focusing on prevention. As for those outside the body, "What have we to do with those who are without?"
The true Church should be involved in stopping sin (murder). Your attatude calls for closing your eyes to what is going on by trying to claim there is no sin in the act of abortion.
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write : The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this : 'I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot ; I wish that you were cold or hot. 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
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To my point:
Obama Defends Roe v. Wade As Way for ‘Our Daughters’ to Have Same Chance As Sons to ‘Fulfill Their Dreams’
(CNSNews.com) – President Barack Obama says the 39th anniversary of Roe v. Wade is the chance to recognize the “fundamental constitutional right” to abortion and to “continue our efforts to ensure that our daughters have the same rights, freedoms, and opportunities as our sons to fulfill their dreams.”
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"The true Church should be involved in stopping sin (murder)."
Really? Where will I find that written?
A good tree brings forth good fruit. A bad tree, bad fruit. You can no more "STOP" sin in someone else, than you can stop a bad tree from producing bad fruit - unless of course, you kill it. But, that's the thing you're you say we should be trying to stop?
Go ye therefore into all the world and make disciples of all men.
And I say, "You must be born again"
And, he shall be like a tree, planted the river of waters that brings forth his fruit in his season, , ,.
The wicked are not so, but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
, , , whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
And this commandment I give you, that you should love one another as I have loved you.
Greater love has NO MAN than this, that he lays down his life for his friends. But, God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
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"The true Church should be involved in stopping sin (murder)."
Really? Where will I find that written?
But Jesus called for them, saying, "Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
If you live in America and have the right to vote, you are the government and it is YOU that hinder them. Now you may not consider yourself a member of the Church body and want to do your own thing and not take orders from the Head of the Church, Jesus Christ, so be it.
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Hey! Are you "judging" me?
Tsk, Tsk.
You still didn't answer the question. No valid response available, eh?
Frankly, I can't think you really believe that verse is "rightly" used within the context of this discussion. (I know, you intended it to be non sequitur.)
Argumentum ad hominem, on the other hand, is always a giveaway that it's employer has little of relevance, or substance, to ad to a discussion at the point of its interjection.
How do you get from voting, to hindering Children, or make the connection between being a member of the Church and the voting process?
It appears you assume that voters all vote pro-abortion. Do you believe that? It certainly appears so from your statement. And, you also infer that a voter is somehow not a Christian (In the Church - not church). But, I suppose it follows logically, if as you say "have the right to vote, you are the government and it is YOU that hinder them."
But what if, the voter actually voted for so-called conservative christian candidates. Would that voter still be "hindering"?
And that begs the questions, "Can voters vote in a way that does not create the so called hindrance?"
If they can, then you have jumped to the conclusion that I voted in a manner that, not only hinders, but does not meet up to your expectations of righteousness.
Hey! I think I just answered my own question.
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“Don’t be corrupt when administering justice. Never give special favors to poor people, and never show preference to important people. Judge your neighbor fairly. Never gossip. Never endanger your neighbor’s life. I am the LORD.
If you believe the verses were only meant as a description of character and you can live with that, so be it. If you find no personal or biblical responsibility in doing you legal part of the function of government given to you by our Lord, so be it. It is not my judgement that you have to face after all voting is soooo, well earthly and below a humble man like yourself.
Leviticus 18:21 ESV
You shall not give any of your children to offer them to Molech, and so profane the name of your God: I am the Lord.
Deuteronomy 12:31 ESV
You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the Lord hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.
Leviticus 20:1-5 ESV
The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Say to the people of Israel, Any one of the people of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones. I myself will set my face against that man and will cut him off from among his people, because he has given one of his children to Molech, to make my sanctuary unclean and to profane my holy name. And if the people of the land do at all close their eyes to that man when he gives one of his children to Molech, and do not put him to death, then I will set my face against that man and against his clan and will cut them off from among their people, him and all who follow him in whoring after Molech.
2 Kings 21:2-6 ESV
And he did what was evil in the sight of the Lord, according to the despicable practices of the nations whom the Lord drove out before the people of Israel. For he rebuilt the high places that Hezekiah his father had destroyed, and he erected altars for Baal and made an Asherah, as Ahab king of Israel had done, and worshiped all the host of heaven and served them. And he built altars in the house of the Lord, of which the Lord had said, “In Jerusalem will I put my name.” And he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the Lord. And he burned his son as an offering and used fortune-telling and omens and dealt with mediums and with necromancers. He did much evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking him to anger.
Psalm 127:3 ESV
Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward.
Ezekiel 16:20-21 ESV
And you took your sons and your daughters, whom you had borne to me, and these you sacrificed to them to be devoured. Were your whorings so small a matter that you slaughtered my children and delivered them up as an offering by fire to them?
Jeremiah 7:30-34 ESV
“For the sons of Judah have done evil in my sight, declares the Lord. They have set their detestable things in the house that is called by my name, to defile it. And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind. Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when it will no more be called Topheth, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter; for they will bury in Topheth, because there is no room elsewhere. And the dead bodies of this people will be food for the birds of the air, and for the beasts of the earth, and none will frighten them away. And I will silence in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, for the land shall become a waste.
Amos 1:13 ESV
Thus says the Lord: “For three transgressions of the Ammonites, and for four, I will not revoke the punishment, because they have ripped open pregnant women in Gilead, that they might enlarge their border.
Jeremiah 7:31 ESV
And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.
Psalm 127:3-5 ESV
Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children of one's youth. Blessed is the man who fills his quiver with them! He shall not be put to shame when he speaks with his enemies in the gate.
Ezekiel 20:31 ESV
When you present your gifts and offer up your children in fire, you defile yourselves with all your idols to this day. And shall I be inquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, declares the Lord God, I will not be inquired of by you.
Psalm 106:37-38 ESV
They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to the demons; they poured out innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was polluted with blood.
2 Kings 17:17-18 ESV
And they burned their sons and their daughters as offerings and used divination and omens and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking him to anger. Therefore the Lord was very angry with Israel and removed them out of his sight. None was left but the tribe of Judah only.
Romans 5:6-8 ESV
For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Ezekiel 16:36-38 ESV
Thus says the Lord God, Because your lust was poured out and your nakedness uncovered in your whorings with your lovers, and with all your abominable idols, and because of the blood of your children that you gave to them, therefore, behold, I will gather all your lovers with whom you took pleasure, all those you loved and all those you hated. I will gather them against you from every side and will uncover your nakedness to them, that they may see all your nakedness. And I will judge you as women who commit adultery and shed blood are judged, and bring upon you the blood of wrath and jealousy.
2 Kings 3:27 ESV
Then he took his oldest son who was to reign in his place and offered him for a burnt offering on the wall. And there came great wrath against Israel. And they withdrew from him and returned to their own land.
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It appears you assume that voters all vote pro-abortion....
But what if, the voter actually voted for so-called conservative christian candidates. Would that voter still be "hindering"?
? Humm Man this nation is in trouble.
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No worries, mate. We look for a city whose builder and maker is God -- Don't we???? How do all those poor backward brethren of ours ever get along without an American way of life?
I think our so-called impoverished, backward brothers with be better equipped to adjust the coming collapse. Although in this country I'm sure the poor with find it a bit tougher though, because they will have competition at the dumpsters. It's not going to be pretty, when it comes. While we will escape the "wrath" we will be tested as that day draws on.
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Oh, Biblebuf:
It appears we agree on something. Do remember me writing, " For "them" it is tantamount to offering up their children to Molech. "
So all your above agrees.
Somehow you seem to think I am pro-abortion. I'd like to know how you arrived at that, based on what I have written.
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Oh, Biblebuf:
It appears we agree on something. Do remember me writing, " For "them" it is tantamount to offering up their children to Molech. "
So all your above agrees.
Somehow you seem to think I am pro-abortion. I'd like to know how you arrived at that, based on what I have written.
No no, what I see in your post is someone who feels that there is no obligation for Christians to us legal means to speak out against the practice, and that includes using the government God has given you by something as simple as a vote. This country is going to judged for those 50,000,000 dead children and I will not be called lukewarm on the matter.
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You never answer the question.
You spew out opinion and judgmental statements, but never address the specifics. Are you a Democrat?
I asked what in particular I wrote to give you that idea.
I said the root of the problem was in the church organizations not addressing sin. It's all Kum Ba Ya, How ya do'n, and hot-dish pot lucks.
Try using a little mental discipline; read carefully; organize your thoughts and counter points; and then respond.
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Here are a few posts that you may want to go back and review.
Reply #4 Reply #5 Reply #6
And the please pay special attention to your reply Reply #9. This is where you try to make an attempt at showing that a fetus was not the same as a person.
In Reply #14 your answer to abortion is;
It is about responsibility. Abortion is the symptom.
Why is the church involved in cleaning up after, instead of focusing on prevention. As for those outside the body, "What have we to do with those who are without?"
And murder is a symptom of anger, lust, or greed. But murder is a sin and abortion is murder. For some reason you don't address this, it baffles human mind.
We do agree on one point that is a matter of responsibility. Apparently you believe that you have no responsibility whatsoever.
When you became a Christian you became no longer of this world, however you are left in this world for a reason. We are here to assist in the work of the Holy Ghost.
The situation we are in here is that people believe that since the murdering of unborn children is legal it is not a sin. The Holy Ghost, when calling someone to Christ, has to first convict a person of their sins. This is very hard to do if the person believes they have not sin.
You were left on this earth for a reason, if not you would have been removed from this earth a minute to accept that Christ. You seem to have a major problem following any kind of logical progression when it concerns biblical principles. You seem to understand that God choose our leaders, Romans 13. However it seems that you refuse to take any responsibility of the assignment given to you by our Lord. That responsibility in a democratic government requires your participation.
You ask me if I'm a Democrat, no I am a Christian.
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You did it again. You are jumping all over the place.
The request for a passage where I said I was pro-abortion.
You still haven't answered the question.
When you read, read what is on the page. This is an unfortunate trait amongst humans. We bring our personal bent to the study, rather than letting the word say what it says, we immediately interpret from our own perspective rather than just letting the words speak -sans interpretation. The Christ explained it this way with respect to the Pharisees - their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.