Bible discussion
Bible Talk => Bible Study => Topic started by: admin on June 27, 2010, 11:04:27 pm
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A conversation With A Jehovah's Witness (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-fvQZCZIqE#)
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That video was very well done, I must say. I would like to bring something to everyone's attention though...
In the Bible the phrase "great crowd" is used in different contexts. That expression's occurrence in Revelation chapter 7 verses 9 and 10 and Revelation chapter 19 verse 1 were mentioned in that video already. Also see its occurrence in Mark chapter 5 verse 24, Mark chapter 6 verse 34, Mark chapter 12 verse 37. So, obviously, every time we see the expression "great crowd" in the bible, it doesn't mean that in each place we see it, it is talking about the same great crowd.
True, the "great crowd" at Revelation chapter 19 verse 1 and 6 is referring to a great crowd in heaven. Now, in the context of Revelation chapter 7 verses 9 and 10, the great crowd was said to have come out of all nations and that they owed their salvation to the Lamb. However, the great crowd at Revelation chapter 19 verse 1, the one in heaven, is NOT described as coming out of all nations or getting salvation from the Lamb. We are talking about two different great crowds. The great crowd in Rev chapter 19 are angels in heaven. The great crowd in Rev chapter 7 are people on earth, where nations exist and where people are in need of salvation.
Speaking of the 144,000... the Bible indicates that this number will go to heaven. At Revelations chapter 14 verses 1 - 3 it says that this 144,000 are "bought from the earth" (verse 3). The great crowd at Revelation chapter 7 are not described as being bought from the earth. It says that they are standing before the throne, yes. The figure of speech, "standing before the throne", does not necessarily require being in heaven. Take a look at how that figure of speech is used at Luke chapter 21 verse 36 for example. The expression as it is used in Revelation chapter 7 and Luke chapter 21 has to do with having an approved condition, not literally and physically being in a specific location.
Regarding what was said about Jehovah's witnesses not basing their beliefs on the Bible and basing them on the words of a few men in New York... First, I'll remind of what is said about God at 1 Corinthians chapter 14 verse 33, that God is not a god of disorder. Jehovah's Witnesses are a world wide organization of orderly worshipers. For the sake of orderliness, there are those who take the lead
in ensuring the ministry is carried out around the globe and that people have the opportunity to learn from the Bible should they choose to do so. Engaging in the ministry requires the teaching of Bible truths. Great effort is taken to ensure that whatever is taught is based on the Bible. Whoever is being taught is encouraged to have a Bible, read it, and see for themselves if what they are being taught is from God's word or not. The teaching methods of Jehovah's witnesses are highly based on logical reasoning from the scriptures. Everyone is encouraged to reason for themselves from the scriptures, and discouraged from just accepting what is said to them by anyone. In other words, Jehovah's Witnesses believe that if you can't make sense of a teaching by examining God's word for yourself, then you shouldn't accept it.
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First, I'll remind of what is said about God at 1 Corinthians chapter 14 verse 33, that God is not a god of disorder. Jehovah's Witnesses are a world wide organization of orderly worshipers. For the sake of orderliness, there are those who take the lead
This is a quote from the Jehovah Witnesses bible:
Isaiah 9:6 For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. NWT (JW)
Mighty God and Eternal Father is capitalized yet they refuse to recognize Christ as God. That is not what I would call orderly worshipers.
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The teaching methods of Jehovah's witnesses are highly based on logical reasoning from the scriptures. Everyone is encouraged to reason for themselves from the scriptures, and discouraged from just accepting what is said to them by anyone. In other words, Jehovah's Witnesses believe that if you can't make sense of a teaching by examining God's word for yourself, then you shouldn't accept it.
Hello Dandi
Concerning the 144,000- Revelations also teaches us that these people are all males, all Jews, all virgins and never lied. When you speak of the 144,000 are you speaking of the male Jews of Revelation 7 and 14 or are you speaking of Jehovah's witnesses?
Could you answer this for me please. Who are the ones that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is speaking of?
Revelation 7:4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. 5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, from the tribe of Gad 12,000, 6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000, from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000, from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000, 7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000, from the tribe of Levi 12,000, from the tribe of Issachar 12,000, 8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000, from the tribe of Joseph 12,000, from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.
Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.
Blessings
JB
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Hello Dandi
Concerning the 144,000- Revelations also teaches us that these people are all males, all Jews, all virgins and never lied. When you speak of the 144,000 are you speaking of the male Jews of Revelation 7 and 14 or are you speaking of Jehovah's witnesses?
Could you answer this for me please. Who are the ones that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is speaking of?
Revelation 7:4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. 5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, from the tribe of Gad 12,000, 6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000, from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000, from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000, 7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000, from the tribe of Levi 12,000, from the tribe of Issachar 12,000, 8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000, from the tribe of Joseph 12,000, from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.
Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.
Blessings
JB
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Yes, Jehovah's Witnesses have published a Bible Translation that is called the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures. Even with their own Bible translation, their other publications often quote from various other Bible translation as well as the New World Translation. When publishing this translation of the scriptures, Jehovah's Witnesses were deeply concerned with maintaining a high level of accuracy when translating the scriptures into modern speech, as well as restoring God's name where it has been deleted from other Bible translations.
Isaiah 9:6 speaks mentions names or titles that Jesus would have. It is not unusual for the names and titles of individuals to be capitalized. Yes, the verse indicates that Jesus would be called "Mighty God". But never in the scriptures is Jesus called Almighty God or God Almighty. That is a title reserved for his Father only. In the Bible, the word god can mean "mighty one" or "strong one" and others besides our Heavenly Father and Jesus have been referred to as gods (Exodus 12:12, 2 Corinthians 4:4). Even Satan is called the god of this system of things at 2 Cor 4:4. Satan is not our heavenly father or our Creator, but surely his influence in the world of mankind constitutes him as a "mighty one" or "strong one". In the same way, Jesus is a mighty one and strong one, even more so.
Interestingly, at John 17:3, Jesus spoke of his Father as being "the only true God", meaning that his Father is the only God who should be worshipped.
The scriptures indicate that Jesus is not God Almighty. Jehovah is shown in the Bible to be the Creator of all, the one without beginning or end, and is called the Almighty (Revelation 4:11, Psalms 90:2, Genesis 17:1, Revelation 16:14, Exodus 6:3, Job 8:3, Revelation 1:8).
On the other hand, Jesus had a beginning and is called the firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) Jesus referred to God as his father saying, "The Father is greater than I am (John 14:28). Jesus said there were things that neither he or the angels knew, but that only his Father knew (Mark 13:32). Jesus prayed to his Father, "Let not my will but yours take place" (Luke 22:42). 1 Corinthians 11:3 says that "the head of Christ is God."
These are some of the scriptural reasons why Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus is God's son, not equal to his Father.
Jesus being called "Eternal Father" is referring to the role he plays in granting everlasting or eternal life to his true followers. As the person with the power and authority to give us the prospect of eternal life by means of his ransom sacrifice (authority given to him by his Father), we can rightly call his Eternal Father.
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Hi JB... As you may know already, there is much symbolic language used in the book of Revelation. What you have quoted from Revelation 14 about these individuals who will make up this group of 144,000, about how they are virgins, and how no falsehood was found in their mouths or how they were without blemish or blameless, must be symbolic language. How we know that? Well, we have to compare this verse with other verses found in God's inspired word.
If literal virginity was a necessity to having this heavenly calling, why would the apostle Paul write to christians who had the heavenly calling that it was preferable that they remain unmarried BUT that due to the prevalence or threat of fornication which some are more susceptible to, a man could have his own wife and a woman could have her own husband and they would not sin (1 Corinthians 7:1,2,36,37)?
This virginity is symbolic, a spiritual virginity. In the Bible, God's people were to only worship him, they were never to incorporate worship of any other gods into their worship of Jehovah. There were to have a special relationship with Jehovah alone, much like married individuals have a special relationship with each other and are not to go outside of the marriage sexually and commit adultery. In the Bible, when God's people were unfaithful to him and worshipped other gods, it is described as an act of adultery. An example is at Hosea 3:1. In the book of Revelation false religion is likened to a harlot or prostitute (Revelation 17:1,2,6,18). Maintaining spiritual virginity would constitute their having avoided spiritual adultery or fornication by not getting involved with false religion and worldly politics.
The fact that it says that they did not defile themselves with women in particular, does not imply that all 144,000 will be males. Notice Pauls words at Galations 3:26-29. It says ALL of you were baptized into Christ... There is neither Jew nor Greek... Neither male nor female... These verses indicate that their sex or nationality would have no bearing or importance on their belonging to Christ and being heirs of his Kingdom.......
The tribes listed at Revelation 7:5-8 are not the natural tribes of Israel because there was never a tribe of Joseph, and the actual tribes of Ephraim and Dan are not even included in the list here. Also, the Levites were not considered one of the 12 actual tribes because they were set aside for service related to the temple, yet Levi is listed as a tribe in Revelation 7:5-8 The actual tribes are listed in Numbers 1:14-16. So, we cannot understand Revelation 7:5-8 to mean that only natural Jews will make up the 144,000 because these are not the actual tribes of Israel listed in those verses.
Also take a look at Romans 2:28, 29 where it shows that being a physical Jew was not necessary to be one of God's people with a heavenly calling because the Law of Christ replaced the Mosaic Law and all the writtens codes that had to be adhered to and the special relationship the Jews had with God as his chose people were done away with...........
Numerous scriptures remind us that all descendants of Adam are sinners. Romans 3:23 says "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." And the Bible says that there is no man who doesn't sin, all descendants of Adam are imperfect (1 kings 8:46). So it isn't possible then for any member of the 144,000 to literally be persons who have never lied or who are literally blameless and without blemish. However, "no falsehood was found in their mouths" and "they are without blemish" in the sense that they strive to follow Christ's example as best as they humanly can, knowing that Christ was a perfect man on earth who committed no sin and that no deception was found in his mouth, and as he did they teach the truth about Jesus Father and the heavenly kingdom. They strive to keep themselves as spiritually clean as they can living in a world that is corrupted.............
1 Thessalonians 4:17 refers to members of the 144,000 who would rule with Christ in heaven.
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Oh yeah,,,,, and regarding the fact that the verse says they were purchased from among men....... This does not mean that all 144,000 would be males either. You'll notice in one of the verses I referenced earlier, 1 Kings 8:46, it says that "there is no man that does not sin." Is that to say that there are women who don't sin, but not men because it says "men"? Of course not. Men and women alike inherity sin from Adam. The term "man" can be used generically to include men and women alike, much like the term "mankind" is not only referring to males, but refers to the entire human race. So when it says they were purchased from among men it can be understood to mean that these individuals are chosen from among mankind, men and women. This understanding is supported by other scriptures...
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Hi again Dandi
There is only one purpose in the Jehovah's Witnesses translation of the Bible, and that is to deny the deity of Christ. This Bible is such a heresy that all the major websites that carry hundreds of translations of the Bible for purposes of study, refused to carry the New World testament.
Let's not take my word for let's look at their Bible and see if your quote that they are taught to discern the Scriptures by using logic.
The teaching methods of Jehovah's witnesses are highly based on logical reasoning from the scriptures. Everyone is encouraged to reason for themselves from the scriptures, and discouraged from just accepting what is said to them by anyone. In other words, Jehovah's Witnesses believe that if you can't make sense of a teaching by examining God's word for yourself, then you shouldn't accept it.
But before we go anywhere let's look at the two verses and revelations that we have questions about their meaning. To make this easier I am posting the two verses as translated by the unknown scholars of the New World testament.
Revelation 14:4 These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, (NWT)
In revelations 14 the first sentence of verse four makes it clear that we are talking about one group, one gender. The New World translation cannot accomplish what it hoped to by translating, "among man" to "among mankind." But this was not enough to overcome the limitations of the group placed on it by the first sentence.
Revelations 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: (NWT)
Revelations 7 is very clear that we are talking about people from the 12 tribes of the sons of Israel. These are not Gentiles from Kansas City. There is not a lot of logic needed to draw this conclusion, in fact it takes very little common sense to come out with the correct doctrine concerning the 144,000.
Most people are aware of the major discrepancy between the New World testament and all other translations of the Bible that is contained in John 1. This is of a course in attempt to label Christ as a god but a minor god not worthy of worship. But let's go past this verse in John and look at some of the other problems we have with this translation. The JW's have translated the same word (proskunevw) when referring to God the father as "worship" but when referring to Christ as "obeisance" meaning honor.
Matthew 4:10 proskunevw = worship
Matthew 2:8 proskunevw = obeisance
This discrepancy is found throughout the verses of the Bible and not just limited to these two Matthews. The reason I bring this up is in two other verses we see another discrepancy on the translation of the word, "kavmptw"
Philippians 2:10 CSB
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow- of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth-
10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, (NWT)
Ephesians 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
14 On account of this I bend my knees to the Father, (NWT)
Now you may wonder why I am pointing out this discrepancy which at first glance appears to be minor. So what if the JW's bow down to Christ? After all man does bow to King's and this is not considered worship. But this is not so with the Jews who wrote the Bible including the New Testament. If you do not believe this I suggested she read the book of Esther and pay pacific attention to Chapter 3.
Again referring to your quote that the JW's are taught to use logic, may I inform you and the other readers of this thread that the JW's teach that Jesus is the Archangel Michael. Are they putting themselves above Christ? Are not the angels to be judged by man? 1 Corinthians 6:3 (KJV) Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
I think I have to mention that when we talk about Christ and who he is we must concern ourselves with the one He called Father. The JW's are quick to point out that the Trinity cannot be one if Christ prayed to the Father. I would like to point out that it is Christ in the flesh, the man, who prayed to the Father. So let's analyze this relationship that Christ has with the Father and who the Father is. For this I like to go back and look at two versus in Matthews.
Matthew 1:18 KJV
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together , she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
18 But the birth of Jesus Christ was in this way. During the time his mother Mary was promised in marriage to Joseph, she was found to be pregnant by holy spirit before they were united.(NWT)
Matthew 28:19 KJV Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit (NWT)
Note that in both verses the King James version and most other Bibles capitalize Holy Ghost but the New World testament does not. You say so what JB as no big deal, oh but it is. This is an attempt to show that the Holy Ghost is not in fact an entity or a separate deity. When discussing this with JW's I have been told when questioning them on who is the father of Christ, that the Holy Ghost and the Father are one and the same. Of course in Matthew 28:19 we run into a major problem for those of you that are taught to use logic when reading the Bible. We see the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost listed separately but under one name. Logically speaking if the Father and the Holy Ghost are the same entity then why should it not read in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Father? Why is the Holy Ghost even listed?
We can get into the STAKE and THE KINGDOM HALL later. 8)
In Love
JB
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Greetings JB...
Please tell me if I am correct in my understanding of your beliefs or not. It seems to me that you believe that Jesus should be worshipped and prayed to, that there is no higher personality in the universe than Jesus, that either you don't recognize Jehovah or that you feel that Jesus and Jehovah are equal in some way. Please do correct me if I have misunderstood you.
If my understanding of your belief is correct, then how do you explain John 17:3 where Jesus called his Father the only true God...
How do you explain that in the Bible, Jesus is never called ALMIGHTY God; only his Father is.
How do you explain Colosians 1:15 which says that Jesus is the "firstborn" of all creation. If Jesus is Almighty God, there is no one that created him, and therefore, he could not be a firstborn. He is not Almighty God. He is given the title Mighty God, but is not ALMIGHTY God. There is a difference between Mighty and Almighty. Jesus receives honor and respect as the king of his Father's heavenly kingdom. So, yes, all knees on earth should bend to him in acknowledgement of his lofty position given to him by his Father. But, the Bible even shows that after a certain amount of time ruling in this heavenly kingdom, Jesus will hand the kingdom back to his God and Father, further indicating that Jesus is not God Almighty. How do you explain what is written at 1 Corinthians 15: 20 - 28? :
King James Version says in those verses, "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."
Now, compare that with what the New World Translation says, "However, now Christ has been raised up from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death. For since death is through a man, resurrection of the dead is also through a man. For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. But each one in his own rank: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. Next, the end when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. For God "subjected all things under his feet." But when he says that all things have been subjected, it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone."
If Jesus is to be worshipped as the Sovereign of the universe, please explain 1 Corinthians 11:3 which says that God is the head of Christ Jesus.
If Jesus is Almighty God to be worshipped, then why does he pray to someone he calls his Father, and why does he say that he does nothing of his own initiative? That is at John 5:19, King James, "Then answered Jesus and said unto them, verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." New Worl Translation, "Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: Most truly I say to you, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does in like manner.".... If Jesus is Almighty God, surely he would do all things of his own initiative. But he does not, and so it is scripturally inaccurate to view him as Almighty God.
Why are there so many scriptures in the Bible that indicate that the Son, Jesus, is inferior to/ not equal to the Father, Jehovah?
The bible published by Jehovah's Witnesses was not published with any intent to make Jesus have a role that he does not have. It uses modern, clear language, and the translators held closely to the original Bible languages. It seems, though, that no matter how much the scriptures in totality indicate that Jesus is not God Almighty, some people want to make him God Almighty anyway, ignoring the scriptural evidence. It is a serious matter, because if you are worshipping someone you should not be worshipping, then it means you are not worshipping the one you should be worshipping. It could mean that a person's worship is in vain.
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Hello Dandi
Please tell me if I am correct in my understanding of your beliefs or not. It seems to me that you believe that Jesus should be worshipped and prayed to, that there is no higher personality in the universe than Jesus, that either you don't recognize Jehovah or that you feel that Jesus and Jehovah are equal in some way. Please do correct me if I have misunderstood you.
Actually I claim there is only one God and He is in the form of the Trinity. You cannot have two fathers to Jesus, the Holy Ghost and the Father unless they are the same. Can you?
John 17:11 "I am no longer in the world ; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. (NAS)
Isaiah 9:6 For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. NWT (JW)
John 5:16-18 So on this account the Jews went persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things during Sabbath. 17 But he answered them: “My Father has kept working until now, and I keep working.” 18 On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God. (NWT)
I realize that you don't like to answer any questions I put to you which is typical for your cult. But here is two questions that should be easy for you to answer. In your belief system of multiple gods which God loves you more, the son or the father? Question number two is that if the sacrifice of one of God's creations (Christ) is sufficient to atone for your sins, why is not the sacrifice of a lamb which God also created sufficient?
If Jesus is to be worshipped as the Sovereign of the universe, please explain 1 Corinthians 11:3 which says that God is the head of Christ Jesus.
The verse also says that "Christ is the head of every man", So what is it is Christ ahead of or is the Father the head of every man?
Much earlier in the Bible God explains to us that man and wife should be considered one flesh, this is why it is dangerous to take Scriptures out of context.
Genesis 2:24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife ; and they shall become one flesh. (NAS )
John 14:13 "Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. (NAS) How could the work of one god, helping YOU, glorify the second god, unless of course they are one as Christ said.
If Jesus is Almighty God to be worshipped, then why does he pray to someone he calls his Father, and why does he say that he does nothing of his own initiative?
Again I would take you back to John 1 And the Word became flesh. Paul speaks on this. Philippians 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
God had to become both fully man and fully God to be worthy to atone for our sins. Verse seven says that he emptied himself for instance Christ tells us during the time he was on the earth in the form of man, he did not know the time that he would return for the rapture.
"But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of man." Philippians 2:7
It is a serious matter, because if you are worshipping someone you should not be worshipping, then it means you are not worshipping the one you should be worshipping. It could mean that a person's worship is in vain.
I couldn't agree with you more
Blessings
JB
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JB you might want to discuss John 14:10
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Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith , And let all the angels of God worship him.
Seems real clear to me!
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... The trinity doctrine is very confusing to me, as it must be for others as well. The Trinity doctrine includes the following ideas:
1)Three divine persons- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit- make up a Godhead
2)Each separate person is said to be eternal, none coming before or after the other [well, we know from previously quoted scripture here that Jesus did have a beginning and is called the firstborn son of God]
3)Each is said to be almighty, with none greater or lesser than the other [we know from previously quoted scripture that never is jesus called the almighty, and he recognized the superiority of his Father frequently]
4)Each is said to know all things [When Jesus' disciples asked him about when the conclusion of the system of things would take place, Jesus responded that he nor the angels knew, only the Father knew the exact time (Matthew 24:36)]
5)Each is said to be the true God [Jesus called his father the only true God at John 17:3]
6)Yet there are not three Gods, but only one God
People should reason on these ideas and ask themselves:
1)Can I find any scripture that mentions "trinity"?
2)Can I find any scripture that says that God is made up of three distinct persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but that the three are only one God?
3)Can I find any scripture that says that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are equal in all ways?
If you search the Bible, you won't find any scripture that uses the word trinity, or that says that the Father, Son, and holy spirit are equal in all ways. The scriptures don't even say that the Son is equal to the Father.
The New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Volume XIV, page 295 said :
"...When one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say, the last quadrant of the 4th century. It was only then that what might be called the definitive Trinitarian dogma 'One God in three Persons' became thoroughly assimilated in Christian life and thought..." (This means that the trinity doctrine was NOT AN ORIGINAL CHRISTIAN TEACHING. It did not originate with Jesus. Jesus did not teach it and neither did the first century Christians.)
The Encyclopedia of Religion, Mircea Eliade, editor in chief, 1987, Volume 15, page 54 says:
"Exegetes and theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity... Although the Hebrew Bible depicts God as the father of Israel and employs personifications of God as Word (davas), Spirit (ruah), Wisdom (hokhmah), and Presence (shekhinah), it would go beyond the intention and spirit of the Old Testament to correlate these notions with later trinitarian doctrine.
"Further, exegetes and theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity. God the Father is source of all that is (Pantokrator) and also the father of Jesus Christ. Father is not a title for the first person of the Trinity but a synonym for God..." (This encyclopedia, not published by Jehovah's Witnesses, acknowledge the UNSCRIPTURALNESS OF THE TRINITY DOCTRINE.
The simple fact is that the trinity doctrine is not taught in the Bible. It is a man made teaching, not a biblical teaching taught by Jesus. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that beliefs should be based on the Bible and what Jesus taught because Jesus said at John 8:31, "If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples."
You may feel that the Bible may not directly teach the trinity but implies it. But careful examination of the scriptures in totality does not support the trinity doctrine. And it would be good to ask: Why would the Bible only imply its most important teaching-who God is? The Bible is clear on other basic teachings, why not on this, the most important one? Of course, the reason the Bible does not clearly teach the Trinity doctrine is because IT SIMPLY IS NOT A BIBLE TEACHING.
In the same verse that was quoted at John 17:11 about Jesus and his father being ONE, Jesus makes the request that his disciples be made one. This being "one" is NOT talking about being one person. Jesus was not praying for his disciples to be literally one person. It is a figure of speech. He wanted them to be UNITED, "ONE" IN PURPOSE AND ACTIVITY. That is how Jesus and his father were one; THEY WERE "ONE" IN PURPOSE REGARDING THE SALVATION OF JESUS' TRUE FOLLOWERS.
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Hi again Dandi
First I would like to direct you to Law's previous post concerning the Trinity and the Savior.
http://biblediscussion.org/index.php/topic,30.msg70/topicseen.html#new (http://biblediscussion.org/index.php/topic,30.msg70/topicseen.html#new)
Now to your post.
Correct the word Trinity is not in the Bible the following are other words that the Bible does not use but the concepts are mentioned:
Omniscience
Omnipotence
Omnipresence
Atheism
Divinity
Incarnation
Monotheism
Rapture
In fact the word Bible is not in the Bible.
Now who has the greater love for you Jehovah or Jesus?
The New World Translation says, "No one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his soul in behalf of his friends." If they are ONE then this makes sense but if not you are in big trouble!
The Bible is clear on other basic teachings, why not on this, the most important one? Of course, the reason the Bible does not clearly teach the Trinity doctrine is because IT SIMPLY IS NOT A BIBLE TEACHING.
Is that Right?
Here are a few questions put together for you by Matt Slick
The Watchtower organization states that through good works and sincere effort only 144,000 elite JW’s will go to heaven. The 144,000 are mentioned in two chapters in the Bible: Revelation 7 & 14. By looking at the verses it is obvious that the 144,000 are literal Jews of the ancient tribes with no Gentiles among them (7:4-8). They are all males (14:4) and virgins (14:4). If the JW states that the usage of Jewish male virgins is figurative, what gives them the right to state that number of 144,000 is literal?
Where does it teach in the Bible that Jesus is Michael the archangel? Why isn't Jesus called Michael right now since he is in heaven?
The Watchtower organization states that Jesus died on a stake, not a cross. The typical Watchtower representation of this is with Jesus on a single vertical stake, hands over his head with a single nail in his wrists. If Jesus were crucified on a cross, then two nails would be necessary, one in each hand. How then does the Watchtower organization handle the verse in the Bible that states that Jesus had nails (plural) in his hands: "Consequently the other disciples would say to him: 'We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them: "unless I see in his hands the print of the nails and stick my finger into the print of the nails and stick my hand into his side, I will certainly not believe,'" (John 20:25, NWT).
Jesus had one nail in each hand. This is made clear by the use of the word ‘nails’ not ‘nail.’ Jesus must have been crucified on a cross, and not a stake as the Watchtower organization teaches. Why is it, then, that the Watchtower teaches something that is so clearly unbiblical?
Why does the NWT insert the word Jehovah in the New Testament when there are absolutely no Greek manuscripts that have it in there? Isn’t this playing with the text?
The Father commanded Six days may work be done, but on the seventh day is a sabbath of complete rest. It is something holy to Jehovah. Anyone doing work on the sabbath day will positively be put to death.(NWT) But Christ said, And he went on to say to them: “Lord of the sabbath is what the Son of man is.”
(NWT) So the question did Jesus keep the Jewish law or did He violate the Sabbath?
When Christ was on this earth He was fully man and fully God. He was the Creator of man and the Servant of man. The omnipresence and holiness of God makes God one. He is one God who is God the Father, the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Three persons but only one God.
Jehovah's Witness have played with the Scriptures to the point of jeopardizing their own salvation. There cannot be two Gods and there cannot be two Saviors.
In Christ
JB
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I have to agree with the JW. His argument makes sense. The trinity argument is totally confusing and the Scriptures you use actually argue the fact that Jesus is not Almighty. Read the Bible cover to cover and you will never find the idea that Jesus is Almighty God.
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I have to agree with the JW. His argument makes sense. The trinity argument is totally confusing and the Scriptures you use actually argue the fact that Jesus is not Almighty. Read the Bible cover to cover and you will never find the idea that Jesus is Almighty God.
I have read the Bible cover to cover many times and find no confusion in the Godhead as one. Christ is not the archangel Michael as the JW's teach. Don't lose your soul on something this basic.
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Must agree also with the JW's on this. If you read the Bible you will never find Jesus claiming to be Almighty God. The idea of a trinity does not exist. Almighty God cannot die, so Jesus had to die for his ransom to be justified. If he were Almighty God and could not die, that would make the ransom invalid based on God's perfect Justice. The trinity actually is a false pagan belief adopted by Emperor Constantine. Anyone who believes such a thing is definitely fooling themselves. It's pretty clear just from Jesus own words.
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Hello bibleteach
We have a thread on the Trinity going. Do you idenify yoursekf as a member of the JW?
http://biblediscussion.org/index.php/topic,59.0.html (http://biblediscussion.org/index.php/topic,59.0.html)
Peace
Fat
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Must agree also with the JW's on this. If you read the Bible you will never find Jesus claiming to be Almighty God. The idea of a trinity does not exist. Almighty God cannot die, so Jesus had to die for his ransom to be justified. If he were Almighty God and could not die, that would make the ransom invalid based on God's perfect Justice. The trinity actually is a false pagan belief adopted by Emperor Constantine. Anyone who believes such a thing is definitely fooling themselves. It's pretty clear just from Jesus own words.
"The foremost angel, both in power and authority, is the archangel, Jesus Christ, also called Michael." -The Watchtower, November 1, 1995, p. 8
Do you agree with the Watchtower that Christ is Michael?
IHS
JB
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Emmanuel, … God with us. (Matt. 1:23 )
Will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee. (2 Chr. 6:18 ) The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth. (John 1:14 ) Great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh. (1 Tim. 3:16 )
God hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds. (Heb 1:2 )
The first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, … came Jesus and stood in the midst. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. After eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Then saith [Jesus] to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. Thomas … said, My Lord and my God. (John 20:19 , 20 , 26-28 ) Unto us a Son is given: the mighty God. (Isa. 9:6 )
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Monotheism for example can describe the Bible truth that there is one true God. Psalm 83:18 "That people may know that you whose name is Jehovah you are the most high over all the earth." One can read the scripture and cite many where God is seen to be higher than angels, man and Jesus.
The belief in many gods or more specifically triune gods is not a Bible teaching but stems from Babylonian and Egyptian religions.
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Brethren, generally speaking as many of you have learned the Holy Scriptures that the only true GOD the FATHER is 'LIGHT', 'Invisible', 'and art in secret'. And the only one who have seen and able to see HIM, is HIS SON. The SON is the LORD from Heaven, the Word who became flesh, named JESUS of Nazareth, bringing us 'grace' and 'truth', in order to take away the sins of this world in redemption. Therefore all mankind may be reconciled with GOD once again as children.
Since the only true GOD is invisible, HE in the beginning created 'someone' as HIS image. Or the 'someone' probably lived HIS image without fail since the beginning. Because henceforth, by and through and for this 'someone' again, the only true GOD created all other things, in Heaven and on earth. Therefore all creation, in Heaven or on earth, belongs to that 'someone', and that someone is God over them, yet nevertheless still subjected to the FATHER.
(KJV) Hebrews 1:
2. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by HIS SON, whom HE hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also HE made the worlds;
3. Who being the brightness of HIS GLORY, and the express image of HIS person, and upholding all things by the word of HIS power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the MAJESTY on High;
(ESV) Colossians 1:
15. He is the image of the invisible GOD, the firstborn of all creation.
16. For by Him all things were created, in Heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities - all things were created through Him and for Him.
17. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
1 Corinthians 15:
47. The first man is of the earth, earthly: the second man is the LORD from Heaven.
(ESV) John 1:
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with GOD, and the Word was God.
2. He was in the beginning with GOD.
3. All things were made through Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made.
4. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
6. There was a man sent from GOD, whose name was John.
7. He came as a witness, to bear witness about the Light, that all might believe through him.
8. He was not the Light, but came to bear witness about the Light.
9. The true Light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world.
10. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, yet the world(Gentiles) did not know Him.
11. He came to His own(Jews), and His own people did not receive Him.
12. But to all who did receive Him, who believed in His name, He gave the right to become the children of GOD,
13. who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of GOD.
14. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen His Glory, Glory as of the only SON from the FATHER, full of grace and truth.
15. (John bore witness about Him, and cried out, "This He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me ranks before me.' ")
16. And from His fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.
17. For the Law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through JESUS CHRIST.
18. No one has never seen GOD; the only God, who is at the FATHER's side, HE has made Him known.
(ESV) Romans 9:
5. To them belong the patriarch, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the CHRIST who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
Hebrews 1:
8. But unto the SON HE(GOD the FATHER) saith, "Thy throne, O God(the SON), is forever and ever: a Sceptre of righteousness is the Sceptre of Thy Kingdom.
9. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God(the SON), even thy GOD(the FATHER), hath anointed Thee with the oil of gladness above Thy fellows.
10. And Thou, Lord(the SON), in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the Heavens are the works of thine hands.
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Brethren, generally speaking as many of you have learned the Holy Scriptures that the only true GOD the FATHER is 'LIGHT', 'Invisible', 'and art in secret'. And the only one who have seen and able to see HIM, is HIS SON. The SON is the LORD from Heaven, the Word who became flesh, named JESUS of Nazareth, bringing us 'grace' and 'truth', in order to take away the sins of this world in redemption. Therefore all mankind may be reconciled with GOD once again as children.
Since the only true GOD is invisible, HE in the beginning created 'someone' as HIS image. Or the 'someone' probably lived HIS image without fail since the beginning. Because henceforth, by and through and for this 'someone' again, the only true GOD created all other things, in Heaven and on earth. Therefore all creation, in Heaven or on earth, belongs to that 'someone', and that someone is God over them, yet nevertheless still subjected to the FATHER.
(KJV) Hebrews 1:
2. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by HIS SON, whom HE hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also HE made the worlds;
3. Who being the brightness of HIS GLORY, and the express image of HIS person, and upholding all things by the word of HIS power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the MAJESTY on High;
(ESV) Colossians 1:
15. He is the image of the invisible GOD, the firstborn of all creation.
16. For by Him all things were created, in Heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities - all things were created through Him and for Him.
17. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
1 Corinthians 15:
47. The first man is of the earth, earthly: the second man is the LORD from Heaven.
(ESV) John 1:
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with GOD, and the Word was God.
2. He was in the beginning with GOD.
3. All things were made through Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made.
4. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
6. There was a man sent from GOD, whose name was John.
7. He came as a witness, to bear witness about the Light, that all might believe through him.
8. He was not the Light, but came to bear witness about the Light.
9. The true Light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world.
10. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, yet the world(Gentiles) did not know Him.
11. He came to His own(Jews), and His own people did not receive Him.
12. But to all who did receive Him, who believed in His name, He gave the right to become the children of GOD,
13. who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of GOD.
14. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen His Glory, Glory as of the only SON from the FATHER, full of grace and truth.
15. (John bore witness about Him, and cried out, "This He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me ranks before me.' ")
16. And from His fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.
17. For the Law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through JESUS CHRIST.
18. No one has never seen GOD; the only God, who is at the FATHER's side, HE has made Him known.
(ESV) Romans 9:
5. To them belong the patriarch, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the CHRIST who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
Hebrews 1:
8. But unto the SON HE(GOD the FATHER) saith, "Thy throne, O God(the SON), is forever and ever: a Sceptre of righteousness is the Sceptre of Thy Kingdom.
9. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God(the SON), even thy GOD(the FATHER), hath anointed Thee with the oil of gladness above Thy fellows.
10. And Thou, Lord(the SON), in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the Heavens are the works of thine hands.
They use the NWT as their only scripture source. Subtle differences like him John 1:1 reads “ the word was a god.”
By simply adding the”a” and putting “god “ in lower case they change the whole meaning of the New Testament.
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They use the NWT as their only scripture source. Subtle differences like him John 1:1 reads “ the word was a god.”
By simply adding the”a” and putting “god “ in lower case they change the whole meaning of the New Testament.
Don't forget it complicates the issue when they believe Christ was, is, Michael the Archangel.
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Michael the angel, for all i know in Scripture, defended with his angels GOD's Kingdom in Heaven, from satan and his angels who waged war against them.
And he who went to rescue the LORD, who was held by an angel of a nation, preventing Him from getting to Prophet Daniel sooner with the revelation of the end days, even our time.
Also the one who had a dispute with satan in regards to Moses' body.
Anything i am missing out, brethren....?
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Michael the angel, for all i know in Scripture, defended with his angels GOD's Kingdom in Heaven, from satan and his angels who waged war against them.
And he who went to rescue the LORD, who was held by an angel of a nation, preventing Him from getting to Prophet Daniel sooner with the revelation of the end days, even our time.
Also the one who had a dispute with satan in regards to Moses' body.
Anything i am missing out, brethren....?
Yeah there’s one problem, and it is why don’t like discussing scripture with JW’s, they believe that interpretation of the Bible can only be made by the Watchtower. This is similar the Catholics only allowing interpretation of scriptures by the Vatican .
Mac
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They use the NWT as their only scripture source. Subtle differences like him John 1:1 reads “ the word was a god.”
By simply adding the”a” and putting “god “ in lower case they change the whole meaning of the New Testament.
Let us together refer to the first Bible translated from Greek to English, perhaps word to word from Greek and explanation of the translator along the verses as well.
(Wycliffe Bible, WYC) John 1:
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was at GOD, and GOD was the Word. [In the beginning was the Word, that is, GOD's SON, and the Word was at GOD, and GOD was the Word.]
2. This was in the beginning at GOD.
3. All things were made by Him, and without Him was made nothing[nought], that thing that was made.
And this is what Apostle Peter said to the church to be awake and alert about 'counterfeits' and 'imposters' among them misinterpreting the New Testament doctrine entrusted to the chosen Apostles by the LORD. And as clearly he himself have gone through all of Apostle Paul's epistles apparently, in order to testify on behalf, his credibility as fellow Apostle for the LORD JESUS CHRIST.
2 Peter 3:
16. As and in all his epistles he speaketh in them of these things, in which be some hard things to understand, which unwise and unstable men deprave [As and in all epistles he speaking in them of these things; in which be some hard things in understanding, the which unwise, or untaught, and unstable men deprave], as also they do other Scriptures, to their own perdition.
17. Therefore ye, brethren, before-writting keep yourselves, lest ye be deceived by error of unwise men, and fall away from your own firmness. [Therefore ye, brethren, before-writing keep yourselves, lest ye over-led, or deceived, by error of unwise men, fall away from your own firmness.]
18. But wax ye in the grace and the knowing of our LORD JESUS CHRIST and our Saviour, to Him be Glory now and into the day of everlastingness. Amen.
2 John 1:
8. See ye yourselves, lest ye lose the things that ye have wrought, [but] that ye receive full meed;
9. witting that each man that goeth before [witting that each man that goeth away], and dwelleth not in the teaching of CHRIST, hath not GOD. He that dwelleth in the teaching [of CHRIST], hath both the SON and the FATHER.
10. If any man cometh to you, and bringeth not this teaching, do not ye receive him into your house, neither say to him, Hail.
11. For he that saith to him, Hail, communeth with his evil works. Lo! I before-said to you, that ye be not confounded in the day of our LORD JESUS CHRIST.
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Yeah there’s one problem, and it is why don’t like discussing scripture with JW’s, they believe that interpretation of the Bible can only be made by the Watchtower. This is similar the Catholics only allowing interpretation of scriptures by the Vatican .
Mac
If their only one GOD, Jehovah HIMSELF saith to HIS SON, in Hebrews 1:8&9, that, 'O God' and 'Therefore God', and 'LORD', referring to the SON in the presence of all the angels in Heaven. And we as born again and born from above, who were baptized in the name of the FATHER and of the SON and of the HOLY GHOST, born of the HOLY GHOST and are ghost, by His Help we are witnessing Scripture declaring so.....
Therefore they are only fighting against GOD in regards to HIS SON, and HIS declared Words in regards, and not us.
JESUS replied to the devil;
(WYC) Matthew 4:
4. Which answered, and said to him, Not only in bread liveth man, but in each word that cometh forth of GOD's mouth. [Which answering said to him, it is written, A man liveth not in bread alone, but in every word that cometh forth from the mouth of GOD.]
Therefore brethren, we are not to greet them at all such 'unwise' and 'unstable', men's believers. But as the church we must inform the gathering to pray for these astray believers. And also pray for those who should minister unto them the truth, that they will turn back while there is time. As the Apostle said that when one has astray from the truth, we are to persuade them back. And it is terrible for one who have tasted CHRIST and turn away to the doctrines of demons.
Pray therefore church together in oneness to the matter out of grace been shown to you, therefore show grace unto others in the name of LORD JESUS CHRIST!