Bible discussion
Bible Talk => Eschatology => Topic started by: unknownservant on February 07, 2015, 11:22:33 pm
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This thought just came to my mind this morning, although it probably can't be true:
What if all those scholars and preachers out there don't teach the Truth because no one would get it anyway, except GOD'S Elect? And what if all those people that don't See Truth are meant to follow a rapture doctrine and that the rapture doctrine came about because in the last age at least one third were deceived by satan? And what if that same third has to be exposed to a deception again? And knowing that at the Fifth Trump that the Seal Of GOD (which is the TRUTH) would be put into GOD'S Elect anyway makes it so that teaching TRUTH is not a factor!
Especially if those that aren't GOD's Elect are blinded anyway!
But then again, maybe that can't be true because maybe everyone has to have a chance to have access to the TRUTH even if they don't See it!
What do you think?
And another reason that it is not likely true is that Judgment starts at the PulPit!
And this just came to me: (this morning, that is)
GOD hardens whom HE Will.
Some vessels are made for honor and some are made for dishonor.
Can the pot say to the POTTER, why have YOU made me thus?
And since GOD is completely 100 percent fair, I think that it all comes down to the kind of person that you are (or we are).
Which is why GOD hated Esau and loved Jacob before they were born.
So, Esau must have been a very bad character in the last age!
So, whatever we are, whatever we have in this age, whether we see or whether we don't see, the hand that we are dealt here was determined by what kind of person we were in the last age and what we did there. This age may be a chance to straighten that out. But it may be harder for some than for others because we always get what we deserve.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
In verse 14, it asks the question, is GOD unrighteous or unfair? GOD forbid, No way!
In verses 15 through 21, GOD says HE decides (basically it is none of our business)!
Now notice verse 22. It says that GOD was angry (wrath), but endured with patience those that were bad.
So, in verse 22 GOD tells us why we are what we are. HE says HE was willing to destroy, but endured with much patience (that means over time, 'endured' and 'much patience'), the vessels (not necessarily clay vessels this time) fit to be destroyed. So, these vessels (like Esau before he was born) were fit to be destroyed but GOD waited and put up with what they were doing, over a period of time.
Where GOD speaks of clay, it is representative of bodies made of earth, or flesh. So having hated Esau before he was born and loving Jacob before he was born (before they were clay), it indicates that we are what we are in this flesh life because of how we were in the age that was. Does anyone know where Jacob's offspring is today or where Esau's offspring is located? If you did, you would see that Jacob is still loved and Esau is still hated and that by their actions you may see why. I would elaborate, but I'm afraid you would make me chase my notes or have to research it again! :)
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This thought just came to my mind this morning, although it probably can't be true:
What if all those scholars and preachers out there don't teach the Truth because no one would get it anyway, except GOD'S Elect? And what if all those people that don't See Truth are meant to follow a rapture doctrine and that the rapture doctrine came about because in the last age at least one third were deceived by satan? And what if that same third has to be exposed to a deception again? And knowing that at the Fifth Trump that the Seal Of GOD (which is the TRUTH) would be put into GOD'S Elect anyway makes it so that teaching TRUTH is not a factor!
Especially if those that aren't GOD's Elect are blinded anyway!
But then again, maybe that can't be true because maybe everyone has to have a chance to have access to the TRUTH even if they don't See it!
What do you think?
And another reason that it is not likely true is that Judgment starts at the PulPit!
And this just came to me: (this morning, that is)
GOD hardens whom HE Will.
Some vessels are made for honor and some are made for dishonor.
Can the pot say to the POTTER, why have YOU made me thus?
And since GOD is completely 100 percent fair, I think that it all comes down to the kind of person that you are (or we are).
Which is why GOD hated Esau and loved Jacob before they were born.
So, Esau must have been a very bad character in the last age!
So, whatever we are, whatever we have in this age, whether we see or whether we don't see, the hand that we are dealt here was determined by what kind of person we were in the last age and what we did there. This age may be a chance to straighten that out. But it may be harder for some than for others because we always get what we deserve.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
In verse 14, it asks the question, is GOD unrighteous or unfair? GOD forbid, No way!
In verses 15 through 21, GOD says HE decides (basically it is none of our business)!
Now notice verse 22. It says that GOD was angry (wrath), but endured with patience those that were bad.
So, in verse 22 GOD tells us why we are what we are. HE says HE was willing to destroy, but endured with much patience (that means over time, 'endured' and 'much patience'), the vessels (not necessarily clay vessels this time) fit to be destroyed. So, these vessels (like Esau before he was born) were fit to be destroyed but GOD waited and put up with what they were doing, over a period of time.
Where GOD speaks of clay, it is representative of bodies made of earth, or flesh. So having hated Esau before he was born and loving Jacob before he was born (before they were clay), it indicates that we are what we are in this flesh life because of how we were in the age that was. Does anyone know where Jacob's offspring is today or where Esau's offspring is located? If you did, you would see that Jacob is still loved and Esau is still hated and that by their actions you may see why. I would elaborate, but I'm afraid you would make me chase my notes or have to research it again! :)
Let me understand this, you believe that you are God's elect because of something you did in the previous age.
In other words you believe that you earned being chosen?
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Let me understand this, you believe that you are God's elect because of something you did in the previous age.
In other words you believe that you earned being chosen?
Reincarnation. 🐂
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I agree with phat, unknownservants interpatation is about works to earn being the Elect. This is not biblical !
For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "A BRAHAM BELIEVED G OD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: (Romans 4:2-6 NASB)
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What is being preach to you here is a false interpretation of the Scriptures. We can all agree that before our existence God knew us, because God knows all past, Present, And future.
The poster is basing this belief of his, that he is an angel who was once in heaven with God, by the Scriptures is posted here in Romans 9:11.
So we agree that God knew us before our existence here on earth, but can you show us the Scriptures that Tell us that we knew god?
No we can not show this.
Of course the other problem is, if this age is a chance for you to workout your mistakes of the last age then why did you enter this age as the elect?
Fat
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Let me understand this, you believe that you are God's elect because of something you did in the previous age.
In other words you believe that you earned being chosen?
Hi Fat,
Take a look at Ephesians 1:4 and 5. The elect were chosen before the foundation of the world. This is before Adam and Eve in Genesis.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
What is so special about GOD'S Elect?
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
They did not bow the knee satan.
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Reincarnation. 🐂
Hi BibleBuf,
No! :), it is not reincarnation! Please read the post again and read it in context. GOD hates Esau while Esau is still in the womb. Then later in verse Romans 9:22 it says what if GOD, willing to show his wrath, and to make HIS power known, endured (endured is past tense) with much longsuffering (longsuffering means patience, patience automatically means over time) the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. If endured is past tense and also means over a period of time and patience also indicates over a period of time, then when did GOD have patience for Esau? It could only be before Esau was in the womb and also Esau had to be doing something bad for GOD to hate him.
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
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I agree with phat, unknownservants interpatation is about works to earn being the Elect. This is not biblical !
For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "A BRAHAM BELIEVED G OD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: (Romans 4:2-6 NASB)
Hi Hal,
This post is not actually about works. It is about why GOD hated Esau and loved Jacob. The context however is about why GOD hated Esau while he was still in the womb. It says Esau was a vessel fitted to destruction and that GOD endured Esau's behavior. In order for Esau to be bad before he was in the womb, he had to be somewhere. And please don't use that typical answer of saying that GOD knows everything and that is why HE hated Esau. The scriptures do NOT say that. If anyone says that is what GOD is saying, then they are changing GOD'S WORD and entered the territory of being a cult.
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What is being preach to you here is a false interpretation of the Scriptures. We can all agree that before our existence God knew us, because God knows all past, Present, And future.
The poster is basing this belief of his, that he is an angel who was once in heaven with God, by the Scriptures is posted here in Romans 9:11.
So we agree that God knew us before our existence here on earth, but can you show us the Scriptures that Tell us that we knew god?
No we can not show this.
Of course the other problem is, if this age is a chance for you to workout your mistakes of the last age then why did you enter this age as the elect?
Fat
Hi Fat,
To call this post a false doctrine when you do not understand the post is a dangerous thing because if the post is accurate then you are calling GOD'S WORD a false doctrine.
It is true that GOD knows all things, but if you insert that into the interpretation of a scripture when GOD did not say that, then you are changing GOD'S WORD and starting your own cult.
Here is an example:
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Now, if you say that GOD knew Jeremiah before Jeremiah was formed in the belly because GOD knows all things and knew Jeremiah before Jeremiah's existence, then you are changing GOD'S WORD and starting your own cult. The reason this would be the case is because GOD did not say that.
GOD said: Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;
Here is the Hebrew definition of 'I knew':
H3045
ידע
yâda‛
yaw-dah'
A primitive root; to know (properly to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively instruction, designation, punishment, etc.): - acknowledge, acquaintance (-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware, [un-] awares, can [-not], certainly, for a certainty, comprehend, consider, X could they, cunning, declare, be diligent, (can, cause to) discern, discover, endued with, familiar friend, famous, feel, can have, be [ig-] norant, instruct, kinsfolk, kinsman, (cause to, let, make) know, (come to give, have, take) knowledge, have [knowledge], (be, make, make to be, make self) known, + be learned, + lie by man, mark, perceive, privy to, X prognosticator, regard, have respect, skilful, shew, can (man of) skill, be sure, of a surety, teach, (can) tell, understand, have [understanding], X will be, wist, wit, wot.
Notice that the definition of 'I knew' means to ascertain by seeing or by observation.
GOD knew Jeremiah before Jeremiah was in his mother's womb by seeing or observing Jeremiah. That means Jeremiah was there.
GOD did NOT say: Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee by my awesome power and abilities to know past, present, and future. To even suggest such a thing is to add your imagination to GOD'S WORD and come up with a cult that leads people astray. Read GOD'S WORD for exactly what it says or you will be treading on the modern fertile ground of being a cult. There are plenty of cults out there these days and they probably started in the same fertile imagination way.
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Hi Hal,
This post is not actually about works. It is about why GOD hated Esau and loved Jacob. The context however is about why GOD hated Esau while he was still in the womb. It says Esau was a vessel fitted to destruction and that GOD endured Esau's behavior. In order for Esau to be bad before he was in the womb, he had to be somewhere. And please don't use that typical answer of saying that GOD knows everything and that is why HE hated Esau. The scriptures do NOT say that. If anyone says that is what GOD is saying, then they are changing GOD'S WORD and entered the territory of being a cult.
First the scripture says they were never bad or good. READ IT BEFORE YOU POST IT!
Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born , neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand , not of works, but of him that calleth (KJV)
for [the children] being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, (NAS)
The election is from God's sovereignty, not from works (good or bad as you put it)
You are adding to the scripture, 'not allowed on this board'.
Second:
Ephesians 1:11 KJV In whom also we have obtained an inheritance , being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Being predestinated is defrent then being preexisting.
The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 4309 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
proorivzw from (4253) and (3724)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Proorizo 5:456,728
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
pro-or-id'-zo Verb
Definition
to predetermine, decide beforehand
in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
to foreordain, appoint beforehand
Foreordain, appoint beforehand
P.S. I read your reply to Phat and you did not address his post, you just slapped unrelated verses - I guess to impress someone.
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Hi Fat,
To call this post a false doctrine when you do not understand the post is a dangerous thing because if the post is accurate then you are calling GOD'S WORD a false doctrine.
It is true that GOD knows all things, but if you insert that into the interpretation of a scripture when GOD did not say that, then you are changing GOD'S WORD and starting your own cult.
Here is an example:
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Now, if you say that GOD knew Jeremiah before Jeremiah was formed in the belly because GOD knows all things and knew Jeremiah before Jeremiah's existence, then you are changing GOD'S WORD and starting your own cult. The reason this would be the case is because GOD did not say that.
GOD said: Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;
Here is the Hebrew definition of 'I knew':
H3045
ידע
yâda‛
yaw-dah'
A primitive root; to know (properly to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively instruction, designation, punishment, etc.): - acknowledge, acquaintance (-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware, [un-] awares, can [-not], certainly, for a certainty, comprehend, consider, X could they, cunning, declare, be diligent, (can, cause to) discern, discover, endued with, familiar friend, famous, feel, can have, be [ig-] norant, instruct, kinsfolk, kinsman, (cause to, let, make) know, (come to give, have, take) knowledge, have [knowledge], (be, make, make to be, make self) known, + be learned, + lie by man, mark, perceive, privy to, X prognosticator, regard, have respect, skilful, shew, can (man of) skill, be sure, of a surety, teach, (can) tell, understand, have [understanding], X will be, wist, wit, wot.
Notice that the definition of 'I knew' means to ascertain by seeing or by observation.
GOD knew Jeremiah before Jeremiah was in his mother's womb by seeing or observing Jeremiah. That means Jeremiah was there.
GOD did NOT say: Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee by my awesome power and abilities to know past, present, and future. To even suggest such a thing is to add your imagination to GOD'S WORD and come up with a cult that leads people astray. Read GOD'S WORD for exactly what it says or you will be treading on the modern fertile ground of being a cult. There are plenty of cults out there these days and they probably started in the same fertile imagination way.
Hello unknownservant it's me again and I see you're still adding to the scriptures.
The Strongs number for knew is 3045 and 19 times in the bible it is used as knowledge of, 18 times as perceive and 7 times as understand.
So we could read it as:
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I perceive (3045) thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Or:
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I understand (3045) thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Your post is totally misleading and cultish in nature. Apparently you think no one will check your twisted attempt to rewrite the Scripture.
Yada`
03045 The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
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First the scripture says they were never bad or good. READ IT BEFORE YOU POST IT!
Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born , neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand , not of works, but of him that calleth (KJV)
for [the children] being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, (NAS)
The election is from God's sovereignty, not from works (good or bad as you put it)
You are adding to the scripture, 'not allowed on this board'.
Second:
Ephesians 1:11 KJV In whom also we have obtained an inheritance , being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Being predestinated is defrent then being preexisting.
The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 4309 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
proorivzw from (4253) and (3724)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Proorizo 5:456,728
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
pro-or-id'-zo Verb
Definition
to predetermine, decide beforehand
in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
to foreordain, appoint beforehand
Foreordain, appoint beforehand
P.S. I read your reply to Phat and you did not address his post, you just slapped unrelated verses - I guess to impress someone.
Hi Hal,
As I said, this post is not about works, it is about why GOD hated Esau. As far as improperly replying to Fat, he called the post a false doctrine and also said that GOD is using HIS ability to know the past present and future in a verse when GOD did not say that.
If you read the post with understanding, you will see that when GOD says they had done no good or evil, HE is by context to the rest of the verses indicating that they had done no good or evil in this age in the flesh.
As far as predestination not being the same as pre-existance, take a look at Ephesians 1:4.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
What was before the foundation of the world? It was the last age Hal.
You accused me of adding to scripture. I would never do that. You used the fact that the scriptures say that the children had not done any good or bad as your accusation. I did not say anything about works verses election. This post shows you why Esau was hated by GOD. It was because Esau was a bad character before he was born here in the flesh. It should not be allowed to make false accusations on this board. Also, when someone adds their own imagination to scripture in their interpretation of it, then that is actually changing scripture. I'm referring to when you decide something about a verse based on GOD'S power to see past, present, or future. If you do that, then you are changing GOD'S WORD. In the verses discussed on this post and in the replies to this post, GOD does not say that he knew anyone by HIS ability to know past, present, or future. Read GOD'S WORD for exactly what it says or you are in error.
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Hi Hal,
As I said, this post is not about works, it is about why GOD hated Esau. As far as improperly replying to Fat, he called the post a false doctrine and also said that GOD is using HIS ability to know the past present and future in a verse when GOD did not say that.
If you read the post with understanding, you will see that when GOD says they had done no good or evil, HE is by context to the rest of the verses indicating that they had done no good or evil in this age in the flesh.
As far as predestination not being the same as pre-existance, take a look at Ephesians 1:4.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
What was before the foundation of the world? It was the last age Hal.
You accused me of adding to scripture. I would never do that. You used the fact that the scriptures say that the children had not done any good or bad as your accusation. I did not say anything about works verses election. This post shows you why Esau was hated by GOD. It was because Esau was a bad character before he was born here in the flesh. It should not be allowed to make false accusations on this board. Also, when someone adds their own imagination to scripture in their interpretation of it, then that is actually changing scripture. I'm referring to when you decide something about a verse based on GOD'S power to see past, present, or future. If you do that, then you are changing GOD'S WORD. In the verses discussed on this post and in the replies to this post, GOD does not say that he knew anyone by HIS ability to know past, present, or future. Read GOD'S WORD for exactly what it says or you are in error.
So, whatever we are, whatever we have in this age, whether we see or whether we don't see, the hand that we are dealt here was determined by what kind of person we were in the last age and what we did there. This age may be a chance to straighten that out. But it may be harder for some than for others because we always get what we deserve.
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Hello unknownservant it's me again and I see you're still adding to the scriptures.
The Strongs number for knew is 3045 and 19 times in the bible it is used as knowledge of, 18 times as perceive and 7 times as understand.
So we could read it as:
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I perceive (3045) thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Or:
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I understand (3045) thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Your post is totally misleading and cultish in nature. Apparently you think no one will check your twisted attempt to rewrite the Scripture.
Yada`
03045 The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
Hi Hal,
Here is the verse in the King James Bible, the Strong's numbers are shown.
Jer 1:5 BeforeH2962 I formedH3335 thee in the bellyH990 I knewH3045 thee; and beforeH2962 thou camest forthH3318 out of the wombH4480 H7358 I sanctifiedH6942 thee, and I ordainedH5414 thee a prophetH5030 unto the nations.H1471
The Strong's number for 'I knew' is H3045.
Here is the definition for 'I knew' which is Strong's number H3045:
H3045
ידע
yâda‛
yaw-dah'
A primitive root; to know (properly to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively instruction, designation, punishment, etc.): - acknowledge, acquaintance (-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware, [un-] awares, can [-not], certainly, for a certainty, comprehend, consider, X could they, cunning, declare, be diligent, (can, cause to) discern, discover, endued with, familiar friend, famous, feel, can have, be [ig-] norant, instruct, kinsfolk, kinsman, (cause to, let, make) know, (come to give, have, take) knowledge, have [knowledge], (be, make, make to be, make self) known, + be learned, + lie by man, mark, perceive, privy to, X prognosticator, regard, have respect, skilful, shew, can (man of) skill, be sure, of a surety, teach, (can) tell, understand, have [understanding], X will be, wist, wit, wot.
The word 'knew' that you used is not the word used in Jeremiah 1:5.
You accused me again when in fact it is you that is inefficient and inaccurate. I have discerned your knowledge and character at this point. I suggest that you learn and understand what the subject and context of a particular part or verse of scripture is before you go around calling names and accusing people. I'm sure that JESUS would not approve of your behavior. You sure aren't going to bring many people to CHRIST with an attitude like that.
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Hal! That part is a discussion! It is about what we are born into! It is not discussing salvation or works or anything by grace or works.
-
Hi Hal,
Here is the verse in the King James Bible, the Strong's numbers are shown.
Jer 1:5 BeforeH2962 I formedH3335 thee in the bellyH990 I knewH3045 thee; and beforeH2962 thou camest forthH3318 out of the wombH4480 H7358 I sanctifiedH6942 thee, and I ordainedH5414 thee a prophetH5030 unto the nations.H1471
The Strong's number for 'I knew' is H3045.
Here is the definition for 'I knew' which is Strong's number H3045:
H3045
ידע
yâda‛
yaw-dah'
A primitive root; to know (properly to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively instruction, designation, punishment, etc.): - acknowledge, acquaintance (-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware, [un-] awares, can [-not], certainly, for a certainty, comprehend, consider, X could they, cunning, declare, be diligent, (can, cause to) discern, discover, endued with, familiar friend, famous, feel, can have, be [ig-] norant, instruct, kinsfolk, kinsman, (cause to, let, make) know, (come to give, have, take) knowledge, have [knowledge], (be, make, make to be, make self) known, + be learned, + lie by man, mark, perceive, privy to, X prognosticator, regard, have respect, skilful, shew, can (man of) skill, be sure, of a surety, teach, (can) tell, understand, have [understanding], X will be, wist, wit, wot.
The word 'knew' that you used is not the word used in Jeremiah 1:5.
You accused me again when in fact it is you that is inefficient and inaccurate. I have discerned your knowledge and character at this point. I suggest that you learn and understand what the subject and context of a particular part or verse of scripture is before you go around calling names and accusing people. I'm sure that JESUS would not approve of your behavior. You sure aren't going to bring many people to CHRIST with an attitude like that.
Yada` The NAS Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon 3045
Word Usage
ability 1, acknowledge 4, acknowledged 2, acquaintances 5, acquainted 1, aware 6, becomes known 1, bring forth 1, cared 1, chosen 2, clearly understand 2, cohabit 1, comprehend 1, concern 2, concerned 1, consider 3, declare 1, detected 1, directed 1, discern 2, disciplined 1, discovered 3, distinguish 1, endowed 3, experienced 4, experiences 1, familiar friend 1, find 5, found 1, gain 1, had knowledge 1, had relations 6, had...relations 1, has 1, has regard 1, has...knowledge 1, have 4, have relations 3, have...knowledge 2, ignorant* 1, illiterate* 1, indeed learn 1, inform 1, informed 4, instruct 3, instructed 1, intimate friends 1, investigate 2, knew 38, know 542, know for certain 4, know with certainty 1, know assuredly 1, know well 1, knowing 5, knowledge 4, known 65, knows 54, knows well 1, lain* 1, leading 1, learn 7, learned 1, literate* 1, made himself known 2, made it known 1, made myself known 2, made known 10, make himself known 1, make his known 1, make it known 1, make my known 1, make myself known 4, make them known 1, make your known 1, make yourself known 1, make known 14, notice 2, observe 2, perceive 1, perceived 1, possibly know 1, predict 1, professional mourners 1, provided 1, raped 1, read* 1, realize 1, realized 5, recognize 2, recognized 1, regard 1, satisfied* 1, seems 1, show 3, shown 1, skillful 3, sure 1, take knowledge 1, take note 1, take notice 1, taught 2, teach 6, tell 3, tells 1, took notice 1, unaware* 1, unawares* 1, understand 10, understands 1, understood 3, unknown* 1, very well know 1, well aware 1
Yada`
03045 The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
King James Word Usage - Total: 947
know 645, known 105, knowledge 19, perceive 18, shew 17, tell 8, wist 7, understand 7, certainly 7, acknowledge 6, acquaintance 6, consider 6, declare 6, teach 5, miscellaneous 85
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Hal! That part is a discussion! It is about what we are born into! It is not discussing salvation or works or anything by grace or works.
Just posting your words.
So, whatever we are, whatever we have in this age, whether we see or whether we don't see, the hand that we are dealt here was determined by what kind of person we were in the last age and what we did there. This age may be a chance to straighten that out. But it may be harder for some than for others because we always get what we deserve.
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doctrine (dŏkˈtrĭn)
n. A principle or body of principles presented for acceptance or belief, as by a religious, political, scientific, or philosophic group; dogma.
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No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. (John 1:18 NASB)
Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. (John 6:46 NASB)
Unknownservant
If you knew God before this age then the bible is not true.
Is this the doctrine you preach?
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No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. (John 1:18 NASB)
Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. (John 6:46 NASB)
Unknownservant
If you knew God before this age then the bible is not true.
Is this the doctrine you preach?
Hi Bob,
By your statements regarding 'Is this the doctrine that you preach?' and 'If you knew God before this age then the bible is not true.', it is obvious to me that you do not understand the very scriptures that you use to try and prove your statements. It is also obvious that I'm not in very friendly territory. I say this because the very people that are supposed to be knowledgeable that have replied to my post are replying with statements that would inspire discontent and inflamatory attitudes rather than openly and intelligently discussing scripture in a mature and Godly manner. We are supposed to rightly divide The WORD of GOD and treat each other with brotherly love, not attack each other in a manner that would repell any new Christian that happens to be browsing around looking for information that may give them more knowledge as to what GOD is really about. If there are any knowledgeable people on this site that can see what what I'm rightly dividing in these scriptures, I request that you speak up so that anyone that is seeking Truth (as well as myself) can see that there are some Christians out there that actually follow the very doctrine that they profess to be True, meaning that whether you do see or whether you don't see, that you reply in a manner that is consistent with the teachings of the very Savior in the which you profess. I will reply very lightly on the verses you used to make your statements, then I will also give a quick layout of what my post was trying to get you to see. I don't expect a very positive response, but I have done my job. At least I have had good opportunity to sample what people will see that they are getting if they run into those that preach brotherly love and then attack the very people that seek GOD in love.
Look at the verses you use to support your claim. I will explain this one only. It says that 'no man' has seen GOD 'at any time'. If you have eyes to see, you will notice that it is saying that no flesh has seen GOD, that means no man in this age. You may also understand this more clearly if you can understand what 'begotten' means. It means the only 'born' of GOD. To be begotten means to be born in the flesh. JESUS is the only begotten of GOD. By the context, you can see that this is referring to the flesh age just like the post I made shows the context of GOD speaking about Esau before he came to the flesh age.
Joh 1:18 No manG3762 hath seenG3708 GodG2316 at any time;G4455 theG3588 only begottenG3439 Son,G5207 which isG5607 inG1519 theG3588 bosomG2859 of theG3588 Father,G3962 heG1565 hath declaredG1834 him.
G4455
πώποτε
pōpote
po'-pot-e
From G4452 and G4218; at any time, that is, (with negative particle) at no time: - at any time, + never (. . . to any man), + yet never man.
G3439
μονογενής
monogenēs
mon-og-en-ace
From G3441 and G1096; only born, that is, sole: - only (begotten, child).
Joh 6:46 NotG3756 thatG3754 any manG5100 hath seenG3708 theG3588 Father,G3962 saveG1508 he which isG5607 ofG3844 God,G2316 heG3778 hath seenG3708 theG3588 Father.G3962
G3708
ὁράω
horaō
hor-ah'-o
Properly to stare at (compare G3700), that is, (by implication) to discern clearly (physically or mentally); by extension to attend to; by Hebraism to experience; passively to appear: - behold, perceive, see, take heed.
Now please note that this post was never about works. Works do not save you. We are saved by faith. But common sense says that if you say you are saved by faith and you have no works, then you are a fake. Faith without works is dead and dead faith is the same as no faith. I state this to anyone that is trying to sidetrack the purpose of the post. Scripture shows deeper meaning to those with eyes to see and ears to hear. This post has shown you that Esau and therefore us as well, had a reputation before he was a flesh man. Anyone who contradicts the WORD of GOD by inserting things into scripture such as saying that GOD knew something by HIS abilities rather than by the very common sense that GOD puts in HIS WORD is going to be in a lot of trouble when JESUS returns. In the example that I used in previous comments, there are those that would insert their imaginations into scripture and change GOD'S WORD. When they failed in that attempt, they tried to change the very definition of the word from the manuscripts. This is the age in which even the very Christians try to change the words of the ONE that Bought them.
These verses are in context. There is nothing outside of this set of verses. They are complete within themselves. Look at the summary of each area of the set of scriptures and see if you can tell what the scriptures say. These scriptures show that Esau existed before flesh and had a bad reputation.
Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
1. In the verses above, Esau is one of these children and isn't actually born yet and hasn't done any good or evil, yet GOD is deciding what Esau's lot will be. So, it is NOT of works, but of HIM that calleth.
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
2. GOD hates Esau. But why does GOD hate Esau?
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
3. Is GOD unrighteous for hating Esau? No GOD is not unrighteous for hating Esau.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
4. GOD decides. The situation that each person is born into in this flesh life is up to GOD. It's not decided by works, but it is decided by GOD.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
5. What GOD makes you is not up to you. Who are you to question GOD'S decision on your situation?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
6. Now, we are still in the context of Esau not yet being born (even though Esau is in his mother's womb) and scripture says this:
What if GOD, willing to show HIS wrath (anger), and to make HIS power known (that's right, you will sure know HE is GOD if HE shows HIS power), endured with patience (now GOD is saying that HE put up with the vessels that HE was angry with. Common sense says that if GOD is angry with someone, then they must have done something bad), the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction (Esau, and others like him should be destroyed for doing what they did that GOD put up with, so what they get is their own fault, so they can't complain to GOD about their situation. They get what they deserve.)
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
7. Even though GOD tells us why people are in their situation in this life, HE is loving and merciful.
So, this post is not about works. It's about the situation that people are in with regard to this life and how they got there. And by common sense, if GOD is angry with Esau and endured Esau's behavior, even though GOD is pointing out that HIS anger is not related to what Esau is doing while Esau is in the womb, but saying that HE endured (past tense and meaning that HE put up with something over time), then it had to be something that Esau did before he was in his mother's womb.
And why would GOD do something so that people would know it was HE that did it and that they would know that HE is The LORD? Well, have you ever considered what people would do if they realize GOD and know GOD'S awesome power? They would call on HIS name and then HE would save them.
These scriptures are about Esau and Jacob and why they were in the situation they were in when they were born into the flesh. This is long before JESUS was born into this world. We know that we are saved by grace through faith, and not by works. But that grace that we have by faith in JESUS is a result of what JESUS did. Esau was being born into this world into a particular situation that was a result of his bad character and Esau was not evaluating what he did and that grace was available while he was a not yet born in the flesh baby a very long time before JESUS was here to save us.
I have much deeper knowledge to share, but if no one speaks up that they are actually seeing these things, then it is better to seek out those that can see rather than those who attack and contradict the very nature that they are supposed to profess.
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Hi Bob,
By your statements regarding 'Is this the doctrine that you preach?' and 'If you knew God before this age then the bible is not true.', it is obvious to me that you do not understand the very scriptures that you use to try and prove your statements. It is also obvious that I'm not in very friendly territory. I say this because the very people that are supposed to be knowledgeable that have replied to my post are replying with statements that would inspire discontent and inflamatory attitudes rather than openly and intelligently discussing scripture in a mature and Godly manner. We are supposed to rightly divide The WORD of GOD and treat each other with brotherly love, not attack each other in a manner that would repell any new Christian that happens to be browsing around looking for information that may give them more knowledge as to what GOD is really about. If there are any knowledgeable people on this site that can see what what I'm rightly dividing in these scriptures, I request that you speak up so that anyone that is seeking Truth (as well as myself) can see that there are some Christians out there that actually follow the very doctrine that they profess to be True, meaning that whether you do see or whether you don't see, that you reply in a manner that is consistent with the teachings of the very Savior in the which you profess. I will reply very lightly on the verses you used to make your statements, then I will also give a quick layout of what my post was trying to get you to see. I don't expect a very positive response, but I have done my job. At least I have had good opportunity to sample what people will see that they are getting if they run into those that preach brotherly love and then attack the very people that seek GOD in love.
Look at the verses you use to support your claim. I will explain this one only. It says that 'no man' has seen GOD 'at any time'. If you have eyes to see, you will notice that it is saying that no flesh has seen GOD, that means no man in this age. You may also understand this more clearly if you can understand what 'begotten' means. It means the only 'born' of GOD. To be begotten means to be born in the flesh. JESUS is the only begotten of GOD. By the context, you can see that this is referring to the flesh age just like the post I made shows the context of GOD speaking about Esau before he came to the flesh age.
No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. (NKJV)
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (KJV)
Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.(NKJV)
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. (KJV)
Sorry unknownservant (veryelect) but Christ is speaking as a man. And note how the NKJV uses anyone. Strong's Number 5100 can be translated as "one". But that is a redharing, God is speaking to us and He is saying none of us has seen the Father. YOU unknownservant have not seen the Father, that is an 'absolute definitive ' statement.
Your tactic of attacking the messenger is not unnoticed in this and your other post. This is probably why you have been ban from other boards.
Good by veryelect or unknownservant.
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Hi Bob,
By your statements regarding 'Is this the doctrine that you preach?' and 'If you knew God before this age then the bible is not true.', it is obvious to me that you do not understand the very scriptures that you use to try and prove your statements. It is also obvious that I'm not in very friendly territory. I say this because the very people that are supposed to be knowledgeable that have replied to my post are replying with statements that would inspire discontent and inflamatory attitudes rather than openly and intelligently discussing scripture in a mature and Godly manner. We are supposed to rightly divide The WORD of GOD and treat each other with brotherly love, not attack each other in a manner that would repell any new Christian that happens to be browsing around looking for information that may give them more knowledge as to what GOD is really about. If there are any knowledgeable people on this site that can see what what I'm rightly dividing in these scriptures, I request that you speak up so that anyone that is seeking Truth (as well as myself) can see that there are some Christians out there that actually follow the very doctrine that they profess to be True, meaning that whether you do see or whether you don't see, that you reply in a manner that is consistent with the teachings of the very Savior in the which you profess. I will reply very lightly on the verses you used to make your statements, then I will also give a quick layout of what my post was trying to get you to see. I don't expect a very positive response, but I have done my job. At least I have had good opportunity to sample what people will see that they are getting if they run into those that preach brotherly love and then attack the very people that seek GOD in love.
Look at the verses you use to support your claim. I will explain this one only. It says that 'no man' has seen GOD 'at any time'. If you have eyes to see, you will notice that it is saying that no flesh has seen GOD, that means no man in this age. You may also understand this more clearly if you can understand what 'begotten' means. It means the only 'born' of GOD. To be begotten means to be born in the flesh. JESUS is the only begotten of GOD. By the context, you can see that this is referring to the flesh age just like the post I made shows the context of GOD speaking about Esau before he came to the flesh age.
Joh 1:18 No manG3762 hath seenG3708 GodG2316 at any time;G4455 theG3588 only begottenG3439 Son,G5207 which isG5607 inG1519 theG3588 bosomG2859 of theG3588 Father,G3962 heG1565 hath declaredG1834 him.
G4455
πώποτε
pōpote
po'-pot-e
From G4452 and G4218; at any time, that is, (with negative particle) at no time: - at any time, + never (. . . to any man), + yet never man.
G3439
μονογενής
monogenēs
mon-og-en-ace
From G3441 and G1096; only born, that is, sole: - only (begotten, child).
Joh 6:46 NotG3756 thatG3754 any manG5100 hath seenG3708 theG3588 Father,G3962 saveG1508 he which isG5607 ofG3844 God,G2316 heG3778 hath seenG3708 theG3588 Father.G3962
G3708
ὁράω
horaō
hor-ah'-o
Properly to stare at (compare G3700), that is, (by implication) to discern clearly (physically or mentally); by extension to attend to; by Hebraism to experience; passively to appear: - behold, perceive, see, take heed.
Now please note that this post was never about works. Works do not save you. We are saved by faith. But common sense says that if you say you are saved by faith and you have no works, then you are a fake. Faith without works is dead and dead faith is the same as no faith. I state this to anyone that is trying to sidetrack the purpose of the post. Scripture shows deeper meaning to those with eyes to see and ears to hear. This post has shown you that Esau and therefore us as well, had a reputation before he was a flesh man. Anyone who contradicts the WORD of GOD by inserting things into scripture such as saying that GOD knew something by HIS abilities rather than by the very common sense that GOD puts in HIS WORD is going to be in a lot of trouble when JESUS returns. In the example that I used in previous comments, there are those that would insert their imaginations into scripture and change GOD'S WORD. When they failed in that attempt, they tried to change the very definition of the word from the manuscripts. This is the age in which even the very Christians try to change the words of the ONE that Bought them.
These verses are in context. There is nothing outside of this set of verses. They are complete within themselves. Look at the summary of each area of the set of scriptures and see if you can tell what the scriptures say. These scriptures show that Esau existed before flesh and had a bad reputation.
Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
1. In the verses above, Esau is one of these children and isn't actually born yet and hasn't done any good or evil, yet GOD is deciding what Esau's lot will be. So, it is NOT of works, but of HIM that calleth.
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
2. GOD hates Esau. But why does GOD hate Esau?
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
3. Is GOD unrighteous for hating Esau? No GOD is not unrighteous for hating Esau.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
4. GOD decides. The situation that each person is born into in this flesh life is up to GOD. It's not decided by works, but it is decided by GOD.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
5. What GOD makes you is not up to you. Who are you to question GOD'S decision on your situation?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
6. Now, we are still in the context of Esau not yet being born (even though Esau is in his mother's womb) and scripture says this:
What if GOD, willing to show HIS wrath (anger), and to make HIS power known (that's right, you will sure know HE is GOD if HE shows HIS power), endured with patience (now GOD is saying that HE put up with the vessels that HE was angry with. Common sense says that if GOD is angry with someone, then they must have done something bad), the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction (Esau, and others like him should be destroyed for doing what they did that GOD put up with, so what they get is their own fault, so they can't complain to GOD about their situation. They get what they deserve.)
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
7. Even though GOD tells us why people are in their situation in this life, HE is loving and merciful.
So, this post is not about works. It's about the situation that people are in with regard to this life and how they got there. And by common sense, if GOD is angry with Esau and endured Esau's behavior, even though GOD is pointing out that HIS anger is not related to what Esau is doing while Esau is in the womb, but saying that HE endured (past tense and meaning that HE put up with something over time), then it had to be something that Esau did before he was in his mother's womb.
And why would GOD do something so that people would know it was HE that did it and that they would know that HE is The LORD? Well, have you ever considered what people would do if they realize GOD and know GOD'S awesome power? They would call on HIS name and then HE would save them.
These scriptures are about Esau and Jacob and why they were in the situation they were in when they were born into the flesh. This is long before JESUS was born into this world. We know that we are saved by grace through faith, and not by works. But that grace that we have by faith in JESUS is a result of what JESUS did. Esau was being born into this world into a particular situation that was a result of his bad character and Esau was not evaluating what he did and that grace was available while he was a not yet born in the flesh baby a very long time before JESUS was here to save us.
I have much deeper knowledge to share, but if no one speaks up that they are actually seeing these things, then it is better to seek out those that can see rather than those who attack and contradict the very nature that they are supposed to profess.
If it's such a big deal that people agree with you, you should be posting on one of these Mormon forums. You're pretty much in line with their thinking.
Mac
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Looks like admin dude has put the kibosh on this heresy.
People like veryelect can never and never even try to explain why God would kick them out of heaven only to forgive them a return ticket back to heaven by His grace. The transition from spirit to flesh and back without the need of works boggles the mind, but they insist it is not about works.
IHS
Hal
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About time.
I agree that this is a doctrine of work by the law. No salvation here!
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8-9 KJV)