Bible discussion
Bible Talk => Apologetics => Topic started by: admin on January 10, 2012, 12:04:27 am
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Easy question.
Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
Some OT reading-
Deuteronomy 30:1-6
Jeremiah 30, 31, and 33
Ezekiel 36–37
Amos 9:11-15
Zephaniah 3:14-20
Zechariah 12–14
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Replacement theology is heresy. I can't believe that someone thanks that God would go back on a promise.
How could you possibly have security in your own salvation knowing that God would do something like that? I cannot find anywhere in the New Testament where Israel is referred to meaning the church. Unfortunately many of the churches are teaching this theology.
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http://videos.videopress.com/PD8eIIq5/tkic-1724_dvd.mp4 (http://videos.videopress.com/PD8eIIq5/tkic-1724_dvd.mp4)
Replacement Theology by Dr. Ed Hindson
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http://videos.videopress.com/PD8eIIq5/tkic-1724_dvd.mp4 (http://videos.videopress.com/PD8eIIq5/tkic-1724_dvd.mp4)
Replacement Theology by Dr. Ed Hindson
He took a half an hour to say what I said in one paragraph.
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Replacement theology is heresy. I can't believe that someone thanks that God would go back on a promise.
What Promise ? All God's Promises are fulfilled in Christ ! 2 Cor 1:20
20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
Paul is speaking about the Promises in the OT made to God's People !
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What Promise ? All God's Promises are fulfilled in Christ ! 2 Cor 1:20
20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
Paul is speaking about the Promises in the OT made to God's People !
Hello savedbymercy,
Yes He was speaking of the promises made to God's people. Your point?
How did these people know of the OT promises? They were Jews kicked out of Rome. Acts 18
ZLaw
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zant
Yes He was speaking of the promises made to God's people. Your point?
That was my point !
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zant
That was my point !
So you believe that all promises made to the Jews in the OT have been fulfilled or that they will be fulfilled through Christ?
Joel 3 16 The LORD roars from Zion And utters His voice from Jerusalem, And the heavens and the earth tremble. But the LORD is a refuge for His people And a stronghold to the sons of Israel. 17 Then you will know that I am the LORD your God, Dwelling in Zion, My holy mountain. So Jerusalem will be holy, And strangers will pass through it no more.
18 And in that day The mountains will drip with sweet wine, And the hills will flow with milk, And all the brooks of Judah will flow with water ; And a spring will go out from the house of the LORD To water the valley of Shittim. 19 Egypt will become a waste, And Edom will become a desolate wilderness, Because of the violence done to the sons of Judah, In whose land they have shed innocent blood. 20 But Judah will be inhabited forever And Jerusalem for all generations. 21 And I will avenge their blood which I have not avenged, For the LORD dwells in Zion.
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Hello everyone 8)
Hello
Paul seem to know this debate would come up and he addressed it in Roman 11. He makes it clear that the roots of the Church are Judaism and that gentiles will receive their salvation because they have been grafted to and are feed by that root.
He gives a warning:
17 Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, though a wild olive branch, were grafted in among them and have come to share in the rich root of the cultivated olive tree, 18 do not brag that you are better than those branches. But if you do brag—you do not sustain the root, but the root sustains you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 True enough; they were broken off by unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either. 22 Therefore, consider God’s kindness and severity: severity toward those who have fallen but God’s kindness toward you—if you remain in His kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, because God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from your native wild olive and against nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these—the natural branches—be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 So that you will not be conceited, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery: A partial hardening has come to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
The Liberator will come from Zion;
He will turn away godlessness from Jacob.
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And this will be My covenant with them
when I take away their sins.
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zant
So you believe that all promises made to the Jews in the OT have been fulfilled or that they will be fulfilled through Christ?
Yes, but they are fulfilled spiritually !
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zant
Yes, but they are fulfilled spiritually !
Then there is no work for the Holy Ghost left to be done?
Replacement theology can not hold up to any biblical scrutiny. Fat was right on with the Roman 11 warning. The promise of Joel 3 has yet to come.
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zant
Then there is no work for the Holy Ghost left to be done?
I did not say that, for everyone born again takes part in a work of the Holy Spirit !
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I was reading a quote from an author Ronald Diprose concerning the Church and Israel. He made a couple of points concerning replacement theology that are consequences of the way this theology causes people to think.
First, that the church tended to establish its own identity in anti-judaic terms, the church is what the Jews are no longer or never have been.
Second, he states that Christendom's way of interpreting the Old Testament, based on pre-justices, has made it very difficult for Jews to take seriously the claim that Jesus is the Messiah of Israel.
Third, he states that Christian writers have tended to talk about Israel as in the past tense, as may be seen in the convention of the terminating histories of Israel with the advent of Christianity or with the fall of the second Temple in A.D. 70.
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Acts 13:23
Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
This was not peter here, but paul, the apostle unto the gentiles, who makes this very important statement, and sheds much light upon for whom Jesus Christ came to save as according to promise..
Another important scripture that lends to the truth of this is Lk 1:68-69
68Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, [see Matt 1: 21]
69And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70As he spake [or promised] by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
This promise of redemption of His people, as the Lord God of Israel, hath been revealed and promised since the world began..
This takes us back to the first proclamation of the promised salvation or redemption to Gen 3:15
15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel
This seed of the women would be Israel [Christ and His People]..and the which, salvations first promise is to and for this seed Israel, the seed of the women..
This is some what typed out or signified in Rev 12:1-2
1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. [the birth of Jesus Christ]
This women had also a seed as we see later in Rev 12:17
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
[ so Christ and his Members are the seed of the women Gal 3:16,29]
So salvation and redemption from the conception of the world, had only a particular seed in view, which later became known as Israel..
But now, its important to understand, that the Israel paul is referring to in acts 13:23..is not Israel according to the flesh..but Israel according to Promise..
Lets show here how paul discerned another Israel other than national Israel Rom 9:6
Not as though the word [or promise] of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel [Acts 13:23],] which are of Israel [nationally]:
You see, the promises of redemption and salvation as stated in Lk 1:68-70, to the people of God, the God of Israel, the promise were not to national israel..but a spiritual remnant within that nation, and as we will find out, a spiritual remnant among the nations of the world, which constituted Israel,[Rom 11] the one paul preached in Acts 13:23
Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
Now paul had the Israel of God [Rom 9:6] in view when he made this statement in the above..
Now get this next point, for its tricky, but nevertheless its extremely important because of the symmetry and analogy of scripture.
The difference between what paul preached here in acts 13 :23 and what peter taught here in Acts 5:31
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
The difference is this..for peter was correct in that Jesus was exalted to the right hand of God to give repentance to a certain chosen people Israel..but what peter did not know but what paul did know..is this:
That Israel was no longer viewed as a mere physical ethnic nation, but that Israel was comprised of Gentiles as well, who became Israel..
Notice..Eph 2:12,19
12That at that time ye [gentiles] were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
They [Gentiles] are now no more strangers and aliens, but fellowcitizens [of Israel Gods chosen people] and so now they also have the same right to be called Israel,
in fact, even more of a right than the non elect jews of that nation..because the Israel of God was never non elect jews, but Elect Jews like Jacob over Esau or Isaac over ishmael..Children of promise..
So salvation and redemption has always been limited unto Israel as a people, but the mystery that was not clearly unveiled since the world began [Gen 3:15]
Eph 3:3-6
3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: [Lk 1: 68-70]
In that Israel was made up of Gentiles also.. Yes thats the unveiling in more detail by Paul of this mystery..[Israel of God was never a physical nation but a Spiritual people or Nation Rom 2,1Pet 2 ]
but nevertheless, true to promise, salvation and redemption is and has always been limited to a chosen people [Israel]..not limited to a certain geographical location as national Israel in the middle east or a certain ethical people [respect of persons], but the scope of this Israel of God is world wide..but nevertheless its only to the world of Gods Israel, all others, are blinded..
You know how paul says in Rom 9: 6
For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
So likewise, they are not all the world [for whom Christ died] which are of the world [the inhabited earth]
Just like there was an Israel within Israel that God had a respect and favor for, likewise there is a world within the world that God has a special regard for, and that world is the Israel of God, the Spiritual seed of Abraham..
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I was reading a quote from an author Ronald Diprose concerning the Church and Israel. He made a couple of points concerning replacement theology that are consequences of the way this theology causes people to think.
First, that the church tended to establish its own identity in anti-judaic terms, the church is what the Jews are no longer or never have been.
Second, he states that Christendom's way of interpreting the Old Testament, based on pre-justices, has made it very difficult for Jews to take seriously the claim that Jesus is the Messiah of Israel.
Third, he states that Christian writers have tended to talk about Israel as in the past tense, as may be seen in the convention of the terminating histories of Israel with the advent of Christianity or with the fall of the second Temple in A.D. 70.
I would add to your second point, or Diprose's second point, they have to completely ignore major portions of both the OT and NT. If you ever get the time you would find it interesting to read the history of replacement theology.
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I would add to your second point, or Diprose's second point, they have to completely ignore major portions of both the OT and NT. If you ever get the time you would find it interesting to read the history of replacement theology.
You have to ignore a lot of things like the return to the PROMISE LAND 1948.
Law
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Salvation Limited to Israel
Here are some more scriptures that set forth the particular nature of salvation from types..
In looking forward to the work of the cross and its accomplishments and its attending blessings, and to who they applied, we have this in Zech 12:10
10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Notice here to whom the spiritual blessings of repentance was to be poured out to..
Not everyone in the whole wide world, but to the house of David and the inhabitants of jerusalem..
The Jerusalem here is not the city in Israel, but the jerusalem from above:
Gal 4:12
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Heb 12:23
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Zech 12 is describing their conversion because of the power and blessings of the cross..
Notice it says the house of David ! The House of David or the Tabernacle of David includes the gentiles..
This we see Acts 15:14-16
14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
The gentiles are called the tabernacle of David, intimating the mystery that Paul fully taught about in His Ministry, but we see here that the apostle James had somewhat been enlightened of the scripture, for he quotes Amos 9:11-12
11In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.
And he of course applies this to the out calling of a people from amongst the gentiles to be a people for Gods name sake..The LORD GOD OF ISRAEL..
Zech 13:1
1In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
Again, particularly pointing out to whom the fountain was open to..that cleanses from sin and uncleaness [the blood of christ] it was not to or for all mankind, but for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the house of David.
These designations indicate Gods elect apart from the other inhabitants of the world..
So God has always kept a particular discriminate people to whom He deals with favorably, over and above other people..and its by His grace alone..
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10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Notice here to whom the spiritual blessings of repentance was to be poured out to..
Not everyone in the whole wide world, but to the house of David and the inhabitants of jerusalem..
The Jerusalem here is not the city in Israel, but the jerusalem from above:
Now that is a real stretch. I read no limitations of His grace to Jerusalem in this scripture.
9 "And in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced ; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. 11 "In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo.
When we look at the verse in context we see that it can only be a place. We see that verse 9 referrers back to Joel 3. Is the Church going to go into mourning? No of course not, exactly the opposite.
Supersessionism was invented by the church of Rome because there was no Israel for 1900 years and the people of little faith could not imagine that it could ever return, so they had to come up with a way justify the prophecy in the Scriptures.
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well, as far as replacement theology and the book of romans...
from personal study, rom 12 speaking of all isreal being saved with the fullness of the gentiles coming in, possibly indicates that the promise is to all born of israel but jews who don't believe and die, then reincarnate into gentiles who will...thus all israel is saved.
thoughts?(ducks for cover)
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well, as far as replacement theology and the book of romans...
from personal study, rom 12 speaking of all isreal being saved with the fullness of the gentiles coming in, possibly indicates that the promise is to all born of israel but jews who don't believe and die, then reincarnate into gentiles who will...thus all israel is saved.
thoughts?(ducks for cover)
You mean Rom 11 :) I know your testing to see if we are paying attention.
God will not go back on His promises to Jew or Gentile. But reincarnate into gentiles, NOT.
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What you are really talking about here is taking Israel, as defined in the Old Testament, and superimposing the New Testament over it. The trouble you have here is that you leave no room for the return of Israel, as prophesied in the Old Testament, and even the New Testament. You are also removing the Old Testament from Canon, making it illegitimate in today's world.
Let's face it, replacement theology came about because people prior to 1948, had the fear that Israel was not going to return. The church was starting to panic believing that the return of Israel was a false prophecy. What replacement theology shows is a weakness in disbelief or unbelief of man in God's word.
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What you are really talking about here is taking Israel, as defined in the Old Testament, and superimposing the New Testament over it. The trouble you have here is that you leave no room for the return of Israel, as prophesied in the Old Testament, and even the New Testament. You are also removing the Old Testament from Canon, making it illegitimate in today's world.
Let's face it, replacement theology came about because people prior to 1948, had the fear that Israel was not going to return. The church was starting to panic believing that the return of Israel was a false prophecy. What replacement theology shows is a weakness in disbelief or unbelief of man in God's word.
Look at it this way Moss, if you like your plan you can keep your plan, period! ;)
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I heard this being preached on TV and was amazed that it had a large following. I wonder if these people believe in the rapture of the church followed by the seven years of tribulation?
Who would be in the tribulation and worship at the new temple?
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I heard this being preached on TV and was amazed that it had a large following. I wonder if these people believe in the rapture of the church followed by the seven years of tribulation?
Who would be in the tribulation and worship at the new temple?
Hal,These people don't ask themselves such questions. The glom on to out of context Scripture that supports their worldview and are blind to anything else written in the Scriptures.
When the apostles asked Christ why he used parables He replied that its meanings were meant for only those that could understand. The best example that I can think of somebody that has been blinded to the truth is Satan. He knows the Scriptures and he knows what the end result is going to be but he refuses to believe it. He apparently could not see the prophecy of Christ in the crucifixion, and he entered Judas and caused Judas to carry out the plans of God. Satan was as blind as the Jews, as to the nature and mission of the Messiah.
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Hal,These people don't ask themselves such questions. The glom on to out of context Scripture that supports their worldview and are blind to anything else written in the Scriptures.
When the apostles asked Christ why he used parables He replied that its meanings were meant for only those that could understand. The best example that I can think of somebody that has been blinded to the truth is Satan. He knows the Scriptures and he knows what the end result is going to be but he refuses to believe it. He apparently could not see the prophecy of Christ in the crucifixion, and he entered Judas and caused Judas to carry out the plans of God. Satan was as blind as the Jews, as to the nature and mission of the Messiah.
Satan invented Death and Taxes, he can't be too smart.
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Who teaches replacement theology?
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Who teaches replacement theology?
COR, LDS, JW’s, SDA, and a bunch of others.
https://amos37.com/replacement-denominations/
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Do you understand that Israel speaks of 5 things in scripture?
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Do you understand that Israel speaks of 5 things in scripture?
Do you understand that replacement theology has nothing to do with Scripture? In fact replacement theology teaches against Scripture, it teaches that the Lord cannot be trusted to keep his promises.
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Do you understand that replacement theology has nothing to do with Scripture? In fact replacement theology teaches against Scripture, it teaches that the Lord cannot be trusted to keep his promises.
I think you do not understand Redemptive History.
What about saints who lived before Israel was a nation?
Gentiles were "grafted into the olive tree"....they did not replace it, God did a new thing...It is not replacing, but fulfilling....you miss that entirely.
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I think you do not understand Redemptive History.
What about saints who lived before Israel was a nation?
Gentiles were "grafted into the olive tree"....they did not replace it, God did a new thing...It is not replacing, but fulfilling....you miss that entirely.
I don't believe that you understand what Supersessionism is. What you say is true but it has nothing to do with replacement theology.
Replacement theology is a heresy because it assumes that God will not keep his promise to the Jewish nation. This is proven wrong in 1948 when Israel returned as a nation. I hope you understand that if you believe in replacement theology you have to believe that your own salvation is in peril.
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I don't believe that you understand what Supersessionism is. What you say is true but it has nothing to do with replacement theology.
Replacement theology is a heresy because it assumes that God will not keep his promise to the Jewish nation. This is proven wrong in 1948 when Israel returned as a nation. I hope you understand that if you believe in replacement theology you have to believe that your own salvation is in peril.
Hello Fat,
Who is the nation being spoken of in Mt 21:43?
Is it a literal physical nation, like Sweden?
Or is it the church....the True Israel found in Jesus?
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Hello Fat,
Who is the nation being spoken of in Mt 21:43?
Is it a literal physical nation, like Sweden?
Or is it the church....the True Israel found in Jesus?
Vs 31. "Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you.
Vs. 45. When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them.
The Pharisees were being addressed and they understood that they were not doing the will of God. How did you determine that He was addressing a nation and not these Pharisees who twist the Scriptures for their own personal gain.
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Hello Fat,
Who is the nation being spoken of in Mt 21:43?
Is it a literal physical nation, like Sweden?
Or is it the church....the True Israel found in Jesus?
Peter spoke of the Church being a holy nation but it doesn’t appear to have relevance in these verses.
The church does not replace Israel, Paul makes that clear in Romans 11.
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The Pharisees were being addressed and they understood that they were not doing the will of God. How did you determine that He was addressing a nation and not these Pharisees who twist the Scriptures for their own personal gain.
Hello fat,
I was speaking about the wording which is clear in vs 43.....taken from you and given to a nation......what nation is that?
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Peter spoke of the Church being a holy nation but it doesn’t appear to have relevance in these verses.
The church does not replace Israel, Paul makes that clear in Romans 11.
HELLO Hal,
Answer and explain the question in verse 43......compare if you would Isa.5.....
Peter is showing the exact parallel to Ex.19.....except in 1 pet2....it is part of the New Exodus in Jesus....not the first one unto Moses 1 cor 10....
Take some time to think along those lines and you might like what you see.
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Hello fat,
I was speaking about the wording which is clear in vs 43.....taken from you and given to a nation......what nation is that?
“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.”
Matthew 21:43 NASB
The point is that He is addressing the legalist,Pharisees, not the nation of Israel. The Pharisees were left in the LAW.
You can’t cherry pick your verses from a chapter like that and expect it to be swallowed as whole truth here.
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HELLO Hal,
Answer and explain the question in verse 43......compare if you would Isa.5.....
Peter is showing the exact parallel to Ex.19.....except in 1 pet2....it is part of the New Exodus in Jesus....not the first one unto Moses 1 cor 10....
Take some time to think along those lines and you might like what you see.
Hello Icon
You beliefs have some conflicts with the rest of Scripture;
“"For behold, in those days and at that time, When I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all the nations And bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat. Then I will enter into judgment with them there On behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel, Whom they have scattered among the nations; And they have divided up My land. "They have also cast lots for My people, Traded a boy for a harlot And sold a girl for wine that they may drink. Moreover, what are you to Me, O Tyre, Sidon and all the regions of Philistia? Are you rendering Me a recompense? But if you do recompense Me, swiftly and speedily I will return your recompense on your head. Since you have taken My silver and My gold, brought My precious treasures to your temples, and sold the sons of Judah and Jerusalem to the Greeks in order to remove them far from their territory, behold, I am going to arouse them from the place where you have sold them, and return your recompense on your head. Also I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the sons of Judah, and they will sell them to the Sabeans, to a distant nation," for the LORD has spoken. Proclaim this among the nations: Prepare a war; rouse the mighty men! Let all the soldiers draw near, let them come up! Beat your plowshares into swords And your pruning hooks into spears; Let the weak say, "I am a mighty man." Hasten and come, all you surrounding nations, And gather yourselves there. Bring down, O LORD, Your mighty ones. Let the nations be aroused And come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat, For there I will sit to judge All the surrounding nations. Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, tread, for the wine press is full; The vats overflow, for their wickedness is great. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. The sun and moon grow dark And the stars lose their brightness. The LORD roars from Zion And utters His voice from Jerusalem, And the heavens and the earth tremble. But the LORD is a refuge for His people And a stronghold to the sons of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD your God, Dwelling in Zion, My holy mountain. So Jerusalem will be holy, And strangers will pass through it no more. And in that day The mountains will drip with sweet wine, And the hills will flow with milk, And all the brooks of Judah will flow with water; And a spring will go out from the house of the LORD To water the valley of Shittim. Egypt will become a waste, And Edom will become a desolate wilderness, Because of the violence done to the sons of Judah, In whose land they have shed innocent blood. But Judah will be inhabited forever And Jerusalem for all generations. And I will avenge their blood which I have not avenged, For the LORD dwells in Zion.”
Joel 3:1-21 NASB
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Hello Icon
You beliefs have some conflicts with the rest of Scripture;
“"For behold, in those days and at that time, When I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all the nations And bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat. Then I will enter into judgment with them there On behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel, Whom they have scattered among the nations; And they have divided up My land. "They have also cast lots for My people, Traded a boy for a harlot And sold a girl for wine that they may drink. Moreover, what are you to Me, O Tyre, Sidon and all the regions of Philistia? Are you rendering Me a recompense? But if you do recompense Me, swiftly and speedily I will return your recompense on your head. Since you have taken My silver and My gold, brought My precious treasures to your temples, and sold the sons of Judah and Jerusalem to the Greeks in order to remove them far from their territory, behold, I am going to arouse them from the place where you have sold them, and return your recompense on your head. Also I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the sons of Judah, and they will sell them to the Sabeans, to a distant nation," for the LORD has spoken. Proclaim this among the nations: Prepare a war; rouse the mighty men! Let all the soldiers draw near, let them come up! Beat your plowshares into swords And your pruning hooks into spears; Let the weak say, "I am a mighty man." Hasten and come, all you surrounding nations, And gather yourselves there. Bring down, O LORD, Your mighty ones. Let the nations be aroused And come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat, For there I will sit to judge All the surrounding nations. Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, tread, for the wine press is full; The vats overflow, for their wickedness is great. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
This language of judgement matches that found in the book of revelation 14;
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
Sounds like the judgment that came in the first century...
The sun and moon grow dark And the stars lose their brightness.
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The language of the sun moon and stars signifies a change of governmental administration in scripture.
Joel had just used it in chapter two describing a day of the lord.....there were many in the OT.
10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
Peter quotes from Joel 2 also at Pentecost...identifying the correct time frame, using the same language;
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord
The LORD roars from Zion And utters His voice from Jerusalem, And the heavens and the earth tremble. But the LORD is a refuge for His people And a stronghold to the sons of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD your God, Dwelling in Zion, My holy mountain. So Jerusalem will be holy, And strangers will pass through it no more. And in that day The mountains will drip with sweet wine, And the hills will flow with milk, And all the brooks of Judah will flow with water; And a spring will go out from the house of the LORD To water the valley of Shittim. Egypt will become a waste, And Edom will become a desolate wilderness, Because of the violence done to the sons of Judah, In whose land they have shed innocent blood. But Judah will be inhabited forever And Jerusalem for all generations. And I will avenge their blood which I have not avenged, For the LORD dwells in Zion.”
Joel 3:1-21 NASB
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it does tie together...can you see it?
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[/b][/color]
The language of the sun moon and stars signifies a change of governmental administration in scripture.
Joel had just used it in chapter two describing a day of the lord.....there were many in the OT.
10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
Peter quotes from Joel 2 also at Pentecost...identifying the correct time frame, using the same language;
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord
it does tie together...can you see it?
it does tie together...can you see it?
Not even close.
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it does tie together...can you see it?
Not even close.
Not even close??? >:( are you sure....what does it mean when it says the sun shall not give its light and the moon will turn to blood??? Do you think it is a literal event like the so called....blood moon?
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Not even close??? >:( are you sure....what does it mean when it says the sun shall not give its light and the moon will turn to blood??? Do you think it is a literal event like the so called....blood moon?
Like I said, not even close. You are running from the truth.
For behold, in those days and at that time, When I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all the nations And bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat. Then I will enter into judgment with them there On behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel, Whom they have scattered among the nations; And they have divided up My land. "They have also cast lots for My people, Traded a boy for a harlot And sold a girl for wine that they may drink. Moreover, what are you to Me, O Tyre, Sidon and all the regions of Philistia? Are you rendering Me a recompense? But if you do recompense Me, swiftly and speedily I will return your recompense on your head. Since you have taken My silver and My gold, brought My precious treasures to your temples, and sold the sons of Judah and Jerusalem to the Greeks in order to remove them far from their territory, behold, I am going to arouse them from the place where you have sold them, and return your recompense on your head. Also I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the sons of Judah, and they will sell them to the Sabeans, to a distant nation," for the LORD has spoken. Proclaim this among the nations: Prepare a war; rouse the mighty men! Let all the soldiers draw near, let them come up! Beat your plowshares into swords And your pruning hooks into spears; Let the weak say, "I am a mighty man." Hasten and come, all you surrounding nations, And gather yourselves there. Bring down, O LORD, Your mighty ones. Let the nations be aroused And come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat,
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it does tie together...can you see it?
Not even close.
Hal.....in a discussion...we can discuss....this does not look like you are responding to what i asked you....
1]Not even close??? >:( are you sure....what does it mean when it says the sun shall not give its light and the moon will turn to blood??? Do you think it is a literal event like the so called....blood moon?
2]Peter quotes Joel 2;
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
I am asking what you think the highlighted portion speaks of?
3]here it is again;
mt24;
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Hal I am asking for your understanding of these events ....specifically
a] the sun and moon will not give their light
b] the stars shall fall from heaven
Hal....I am not asking for a commentary on it...I am asking this....what does it mean the sun and moon will not give their light, the stars will fall from heaven???
Are these literal events, when do they occur? or what ideas do you have on this??? ;)
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And I was quoting Joel 3. You attack on the Scriptures is to leave out the people of Israel.
I can piece mill verses together that will tell the story of the three bears.
If you are truly interested in a discussion why don’t you be upfront on your beliefs, just lay it out for us.
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And I was quoting Joel 3. You attack on the Scriptures is to leave out the people of Israel.
I can piece mill verses together that will tell the story of the three bears.
If you are truly interested in a discussion why don’t you be upfront on your beliefs, just lay it out for us.
I would like you to answers the questions I asked you....all of them...
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I would like you to answers the questions I asked you....all of them...
Here are your questions:
Hal....I am not asking for a commentary on it...I am asking this....what does it mean the sun and moon will not give their light, the stars will fall from heaven???
Are these literal events, when do they occur? or what ideas do you have on this??? ;)
If you would take the time to read Joel 3 you would have the answers to the questions you put to me from the earlier chapter 2.
I'll shorten it for you:
Joel 3:1. "For behold, in those days and at that time, When I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, 2. I will gather all the nations And bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat. Then I will enter into judgment with them there On behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel, Whom they have scattered among the nations; And they have divided up My land………20. But Judah will be inhabited forever And Jerusalem for all generations.
21. And I will avenge their blood which I have not avenged, For the LORD dwells in Zion.
And yes this will be a literal event, "in those days and at that time, When I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem." The end of the tribulation and the beginning the millennium, coincides with the second coming, seven years after the rapture.
Do you believe the bible to be true??????
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Hal
You did not answer my questions at all....I asked the questions for a reason. Comment on the sun, moon, and stars....
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Hal
You did not answer my questions at all....
The Bible answers your question.
I’m done with you my friend, have a good day and drive safely.
Peace
Hal
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Hal
I'll shorten it for you:
Thanks, but that was not necessary....
And yes this will be a literal event, "in those days and at that time, When I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem.
I had asked you about the stars falling from Heaven and you say it is going to be a literal event?
" The end of the tribulation and the beginning the millennium, coincides with the second coming, seven years after the rapture.
This passage does not mention any of those things does it? You have imported them here.
Do you believe the bible to be true??????
The bible is indeed true. You theories do not seem to have truth to them however. You make bold assertions, but when questioned you withdraw like a turtle into a shell. No problem, I understand. Your reluctance to respond betrays an inability to have any meaningful discussion on the texts.
If anyone questions you you respond by asking -do you believe the bible?
The Bible answers your question.
I know it does. I was asking you to answer however so I guess it is good I did not hold my breath :-\ :o
I’m done with you my friend, have a good day and drive safely.
Okay...well at least you notified me that you cannot respond to questions in a timely fashion... ;)
And I was quoting Joel 3. You attack on the Scriptures is to leave out the people of Israel.
We did not get there yet, but a person would have to desire to search out truth and have respect enough for the scriptures as the word of God to actually work through it.
I can piece mill verses together that will tell the story of the three bears.
:D Then by all means stick to what you are good at. I am more than certain that you have no idea what the historic positions of the church have been....You think you do, but You REALLY do not.
If you are truly interested in a discussion why don’t you be upfront on your beliefs, just lay it out for us.
I was trying to ,however it seems like you are looking for bumper sticker theology rather than searching things out. Many do nowadays. It is not a crime , but it is unfortunate.
Like I said, not even close. You are running from the truth.
and yet...when I begin to ask you 3-4 questions you say this;
I’m done with you my friend, have a good day and drive safely :-\ :'( :-[???....okay.you be safe also...Not sure why you posted to begin with, if this was the intended outcome. ;)
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Zant Law
So you believe that all promises made to the Jews in the OT have been fulfilled or that they will be fulfilled through Christ?
Joel 3 16 The LORD roars from Zion And utters His voice from Jerusalem, And the heavens and the earth tremble. But the LORD is a refuge for His people And a stronghold to the sons of Israel. 17 Then you will know that I am the LORD your God, Dwelling in Zion, My holy mountain. So Jerusalem will be holy, And strangers will pass through it no more.
18 And in that day The mountains will drip with sweet wine, And the hills will flow with milk, And all the brooks of Judah will flow with water ; And a spring will go out from the house of the LORD To water the valley of Shittim. 19 Egypt will become a waste, And Edom will become a desolate wilderness, Because of the violence done to the sons of Judah, In whose land they have shed innocent blood. 20 But Judah will be inhabited forever And Jerusalem for all generations. 21 And I will avenge their blood which I have not avenged, For the LORD dwells in Zion.
Hello ZL,
Which Zion and Jerusalem is this looking forward to?
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Zant Law
Hello ZL,
Which Zion and Jerusalem is this looking forward to?
The Millennium Jerusalem.
ZLaw
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The Millennium Jerusalem.
ZLaw
Paul offered this;
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
King James Version (KJV)
It speaks of a Jerusalem on earth that was in bondage, the a Jerusalem which is above...
So again...which Jerusalem is in view?
the writer of Hebrews said it this way;
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
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25. Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
26. But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.
27. For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND."
28. And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.
29. But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him [who was born] according to the Spirit, so it is now also.
30. But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN."
31. So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.
From Genesis 21
Genesis 21:
12. But God said to Abraham, "Do not be distressed because of the lad and your maid; whatever Sarah tells you, listen to her, for through Isaac your descendants shall be named.
ZLaw
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From Genesis 21
Genesis 21:
12. But God said to Abraham, "Do not be distressed because of the lad and your maid; whatever Sarah tells you, listen to her, for through Isaac your descendants shall be named.
ZLaw
Yes...and the quote in gal 4 is taken from isa 54...which speaks of Gentile inclusion in the Covenant promises;
Isaiah 54 King James Version (KJV)
54 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the Lord.
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.
5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
6 For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy Redeemer.
9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.
11 O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.
12 And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.
13 And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children.
14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.
15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.
16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord.
Lengthen the cords, strengthen the stakes...The Great Commission.
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It tells us the Jerusalem is the mother of us (believers) all.
ZLaw
30 But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN."
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It tells us the Jerusalem is the mother of us (believers) all.
ZLaw
30 But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN."
Yes....The Jerusalem which is above is free{in Christ}
Jesus is reigning from the heavenly Zion and jerusalem...Hebrews 12 says He speaks ...from Heaven-
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.
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Yes....The Jerusalem which is above is free{in Christ}
Jesus is reigning from the heavenly Zion and jerusalem...Hebrews 12 says He speaks ...from Heaven-
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.
We have established that the kingdom is not here on earth, and it can never be moved to here on earth, is that correct? Which means the thousand year reign of Christ will not occur here on earth, is that correct? This also means that the throne of David is not here on this earth and not referring to the city of Jerusalem, is that correct?
You know I really find it hard to believe that you do not understand the analogy of the bondwoman and the free woman. Do you understand being bound to the law, and as Paul preached being free from the law? Reading some of your post I almost believe that this is some kind of big put-on just for the purpose of harassment. I am free from the Law (my now kingdom), are you?
Here are a few pertinent versus I believe it is appropriate for this discussion.
1 Corinthians 3:11
For no one can lay a foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Galatians 1:6
I am astonished how quickly you are deserting the One who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—
2 Corinthians 11:4
For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.
ZLaw
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We have established that the kingdom is not here on earth, and it can never be moved to here on earth, is that correct? Which means the thousand year reign of Christ will not occur here on earth, is that correct? This also means that the throne of David is not here on this earth and not referring to the city of Jerusalem, is that correct?
You know I really find it hard to believe that you do not understand the analogy of the bondwoman and the free woman. Do you understand being bound to the law, and as Paul preached being free from the law? Reading some of your post I almost believe that this is some kind of big put-on just for the purpose of harassment. I am free from the Law (my now kingdom), are you?
Here are a few pertinent versus I believe it is appropriate for this discussion.
1 Corinthians 3:11
For no one can lay a foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Galatians 1:6
I am astonished how quickly you are deserting the One who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—
2 Corinthians 11:4
For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.
ZLaw
Thanks for your response. It looks like you are not understanding what was offered however.
Your conclusions are not in line with what is being posted.
I will clarify a later on and try and stay on the topic.
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Thanks for your response. It looks like you are not understanding what was offered however.
Your conclusions are not in line with what is being posted.
I will clarify a later on and try and stay on the topic.
I don’t go by the conclusions made by church denominations on the meaning of scriptures. This is why we have so many denominations.
Please don’t respond, we will not agree..
ZLsw
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I am not sure how you thought to include verses speaking of another gospel, and another Jesus, how you thought they fit into this discussion?
What other gospel do you think there is being spoken of?
Who mentioned another gospel at all?
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Zant Law
We have established that the kingdom is not here on earth
,
I do not think that is established at all. To properly study the kingdom of God is a very big study. People approach this issue in several ways and with some degree of biblical support.
and it can never be moved to here on earth
, is that correct?
no, that is not correct. The reference in Hebrews speaks of a kingdom that cannot be moved but stable and eternal.
Which means the thousand year reign of Christ will not occur here on earth, is that correct?
This again is the subject of much debate and discussion.
The term 1000yrs occurs only in revelation 20....it appears 6x..... this iswhere the term millenium comes from.
rev20;
Revelation 20 King James Version (KJV)
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Now...where does it say this is happening on earth? No mention of the earth here.
In the premillenial system they try and attach other verses to suggest this scenerio. Other believers see this happening now with the number being held as symbolic for the whole gospel age. There exist four main views that have been held in the church and are still held today.
Are there heretical groups and teachings concerning this? yes there are. These become apparent upon looking over the views.
I would offer a challenge to those who read these posts...Can you articulate the other views that you do not hold without creating a strawman?
If you cannot do that i am going to suggest you do not know why you believe what you do.
This also means that the throne of David is not here on this earth and not referring to the city of Jerusalem, is that correct?
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How you understand Peter's sermon on Pentecost goes a long way to answer this question...
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
You know I really find it hard to believe that you do not understand the analogy of the bondwoman and the free woman
.
I do understand it and the purpose of Galatians. this objection is a red herring.
Do you understand being bound to the law, and as Paul preached being free from the law?
Yes i understand the relationship of the law to the Christian.
Reading some of your post I almost believe that this is some kind of big put-on just for the purpose of harassment.
You do not know me at all. My posts were fairly basic. My posts were asking questions in an effort to see where everyone is coming from.
This is advertised as bible discussions....so...perhaps there could be ...BIBLE DISCUSSIONS?
I am free from the Law (my now kingdom), are you[/b]?
Some of these questions are vague and some of these issues are not quite as simple as this one line statement.
What do i mean? Are you as a Christian...law less? What law has God put in your heart? Jesus said if you love me keep my commandments. Which ones?
What is the place of the 10 commandments in scripture?
Here are a few pertinent versus I believe it is appropriate for this discussion.
I think this was a series of peculiar questions that had questionable motives. You can answer for them.
1 Corinthians 3:11
For no one can lay a foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Galatians 1:6
I am astonished how quickly you are deserting the One who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—
2 Corinthians 11:4
For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.