Bible discussion

Bible Talk => Apologetics => Topic started by: admin on January 10, 2012, 12:04:27 AM

Title: Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
Post by: admin on January 10, 2012, 12:04:27 AM
Easy question.
 Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?

Some OT reading-

Deuteronomy 30:1-6

Jeremiah 30, 31, and 33

Ezekiel 36–37

Amos 9:11-15

Zephaniah 3:14-20

Zechariah 12–14
Title: Re: Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
Post by: Zant Law on January 11, 2012, 09:40:49 AM
Replacement theology is heresy. I can't believe that someone thanks that God would go back on a promise.

How could you possibly have security in your own salvation knowing that God would do something like that? I cannot find anywhere in the New Testament where Israel is referred to meaning the church. Unfortunately many of the churches are teaching this theology.
Title: Re: Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
Post by: Fat on July 08, 2012, 03:56:44 PM
http://videos.videopress.com/PD8eIIq5/tkic-1724_dvd.mp4 (http://videos.videopress.com/PD8eIIq5/tkic-1724_dvd.mp4)

Replacement Theology by Dr. Ed Hindson
Title: Re: Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
Post by: Zant Law on July 09, 2012, 08:17:45 AM
http://videos.videopress.com/PD8eIIq5/tkic-1724_dvd.mp4 (http://videos.videopress.com/PD8eIIq5/tkic-1724_dvd.mp4)

Replacement Theology by Dr. Ed Hindson

He took a half an hour to say what I said in one paragraph.
Title: Re: Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
Post by: savedbymercy on July 10, 2012, 06:40:48 AM
Quote
Replacement theology is heresy. I can't believe that someone thanks that God would go back on a promise.

What Promise ? All God's Promises are fulfilled in Christ ! 2 Cor 1:20

20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Paul is speaking about the Promises in the OT made to God's People !
Title: Re: Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
Post by: Zant Law on July 10, 2012, 07:49:38 AM
What Promise ? All God's Promises are fulfilled in Christ ! 2 Cor 1:20

20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Paul is speaking about the Promises in the OT made to God's People !
Hello savedbymercy,

Yes He was speaking of the promises made to God's people. Your point?

How did these people know of the OT promises? They were Jews kicked out of Rome. Acts 18

ZLaw
Title: Re: Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
Post by: savedbymercy on July 10, 2012, 08:54:04 AM
zant

Quote
Yes He was speaking of the promises made to God's people. Your point?

That was my point !
Title: Re: Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
Post by: Zant Law on July 10, 2012, 09:37:06 AM
zant

That was my point !

So you believe that all promises made to the Jews in the OT have been fulfilled or that they will be fulfilled through Christ?

Joel 3 16 The LORD roars from Zion And utters His voice from Jerusalem, And the heavens and the earth tremble. But the LORD is a refuge for His people And a stronghold to the sons of Israel. 17 Then you will know that I am the LORD your God, Dwelling in Zion, My holy mountain. So Jerusalem will be holy, And strangers will pass through it no more.
18 And in that day The mountains will drip with sweet wine, And the hills will flow with milk, And all the brooks of Judah will flow with water ; And a spring will go out from the house of the LORD To water the valley of Shittim. 19 Egypt will become a waste, And Edom will become a desolate wilderness, Because of the violence done to the sons of Judah, In whose land they have shed innocent blood. 20 But Judah will be inhabited forever And Jerusalem for all generations. 21 And I will avenge their blood which I have not avenged, For the LORD dwells in Zion.
Title: Re: Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
Post by: Fat on July 10, 2012, 10:12:54 AM
Hello everyone  8)

Hello

Paul seem to know this debate would come up and he addressed it in Roman 11. He makes it clear that the roots of the Church are Judaism and that gentiles will receive their salvation because they have been grafted to and are feed by that root.

He gives a warning:

17 Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, though a wild olive branch, were grafted in among them and have come to share in the rich root of the cultivated olive tree, 18 do not brag that you are better than those branches. But if you do brag—you do not sustain the root, but the root sustains you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 True enough; they were broken off by unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either. 22 Therefore, consider God’s kindness and severity: severity toward those who have fallen but God’s kindness toward you—if you remain in His kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, because God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from your native wild olive and against nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these—the natural branches—be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 So that you will not be conceited, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery: A partial hardening has come to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
The Liberator will come from Zion;
He will turn away godlessness from Jacob.
27 
And this will be My covenant with them
when I take away their sins.
Title: Re: Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
Post by: savedbymercy on July 10, 2012, 05:12:41 PM
zant

Quote
So you believe that all promises made to the Jews in the OT have been fulfilled or that they will be fulfilled through Christ?

Yes, but they are fulfilled spiritually !
Title: Re: Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
Post by: Zant Law on July 11, 2012, 12:17:40 AM
zant

Yes, but they are fulfilled spiritually !

Then there is no work for the Holy Ghost left to be done?
Replacement theology can not hold up to any biblical scrutiny. Fat was right on with the Roman 11 warning. The promise of Joel 3 has yet to come.
Title: Re: Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
Post by: savedbymercy on July 11, 2012, 03:09:13 AM
zant

Quote
Then there is no work for the Holy Ghost left to be done?

I did not say that, for everyone born again takes part in a work of the Holy Spirit !
Title: What is so bad about replacement theology?
Post by: Zant Law on July 12, 2012, 05:14:50 PM
I was reading a quote from an author Ronald Diprose concerning the Church and Israel. He made a couple of points concerning replacement theology that are consequences of the way this theology causes people to think.
 
First, that the church tended to establish its own identity in anti-judaic terms, the church is what the Jews are no longer or never have been.
 
Second, he states that Christendom's way of interpreting the Old Testament, based on pre-justices, has made it very difficult for Jews to take seriously the claim that Jesus is the Messiah of Israel.
 
Third, he states that Christian writers have tended to talk about Israel as in the past tense, as may be seen in the convention of the terminating histories of Israel with the advent of Christianity or with the fall of the second Temple in A.D. 70.
Title: Re: Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
Post by: savedbymercy on July 13, 2012, 07:16:53 AM
Acts 13:23
 
Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
 
This was not peter here, but paul, the apostle unto the gentiles, who makes this very important statement, and sheds much light upon for whom Jesus Christ came to save as according to promise..
 
Another important scripture that lends to the truth of this is Lk 1:68-69
 
 
68Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, [see Matt 1: 21]
 
69And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70As he spake [or promised] by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
 
This promise of redemption of His people, as the Lord God of Israel, hath been revealed and promised since the world began..
 
This takes us back to the first proclamation of the promised salvation or redemption to Gen 3:15
 
15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel
 
This seed of the women would be Israel [Christ and His People]..and the which,  salvations first promise is to and for this seed Israel, the seed of the women..
 
This is some what typed out or signified in Rev 12:1-2
 
1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
 
2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. [the birth of Jesus Christ]
 
This women had also a seed as we see later in Rev 12:17
 
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 [ so Christ and his Members are the seed of the women Gal 3:16,29]

 
So salvation and redemption from the conception of the world, had only a particular seed in view, which later became known as Israel..
 
But now, its important to understand, that the Israel paul is referring to in acts 13:23..is not Israel according to the flesh..but Israel according to Promise..
 
Lets show here how paul discerned another Israel other than national Israel Rom 9:6
 
Not as though the word [or promise] of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel [Acts 13:23],] which are of Israel [nationally]:
 
You see, the promises of redemption and salvation as stated in Lk 1:68-70, to the people of God, the God of Israel, the promise were not to national israel..but a spiritual remnant within that nation, and as we will find out, a spiritual remnant among the nations of the world, which constituted Israel,[Rom 11] the one paul preached in Acts 13:23
 
Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
 
Now paul had the Israel of God [Rom 9:6] in view when he made this statement in the above..
 
Now get this next point, for its tricky, but nevertheless its extremely important because of the symmetry and analogy of scripture.
 
The difference between what paul preached here in acts 13 :23 and what peter taught here in Acts 5:31
 
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
 
The difference is this..for peter was correct in that Jesus was exalted to the right hand of God to give repentance to a certain chosen people Israel..but what peter did not know but what paul did know..is this:
 
That Israel was no longer viewed as a mere physical ethnic nation, but that Israel was comprised of Gentiles as well, who became Israel..
 
Notice..Eph 2:12,19
 
12That at that time ye [gentiles] were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
 
19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
 
They [Gentiles] are now no more strangers and aliens, but fellowcitizens [of Israel Gods chosen people] and so now they also have the same right to be called Israel,
 
 in fact, even more of a right than the non elect jews of that nation..because the Israel of God was never non elect jews, but Elect Jews like Jacob over Esau or Isaac over ishmael..Children of promise..
 
So salvation and redemption has always been limited unto Israel as a people, but the mystery that was not clearly unveiled since the world began [Gen 3:15]
 
Eph 3:3-6
 
 
3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
 
4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
 
5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;


6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: [Lk 1: 68-70]
 
In that Israel was made up of Gentiles also.. Yes thats the unveiling in more detail by Paul of this mystery..[Israel of God was never a physical nation but a Spiritual people  or Nation Rom 2,1Pet 2 ]
 
but nevertheless, true to promise, salvation and redemption is and has always been limited to a chosen people [Israel]..not limited to a certain geographical location as national Israel in the middle east or a certain ethical people [respect of persons], but the scope of this Israel of God is world wide..but nevertheless its only to the world of Gods Israel, all others, are blinded..
 
You know how paul says in Rom 9: 6
 
For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:


So likewise, they are not all the world [for whom Christ died] which are of the world [the inhabited earth]
 
Just like there was an Israel within Israel that God had a respect and favor for, likewise there is a world within the world that God has a special regard for, and that world is the Israel of God, the Spiritual seed of Abraham..
Title: Re: What is so bad about replacement theology?
Post by: Fat on July 13, 2012, 09:20:29 AM
I was reading a quote from an author Ronald Diprose concerning the Church and Israel. He made a couple of points concerning replacement theology that are consequences of the way this theology causes people to think.
 
First, that the church tended to establish its own identity in anti-judaic terms, the church is what the Jews are no longer or never have been.
 
Second, he states that Christendom's way of interpreting the Old Testament, based on pre-justices, has made it very difficult for Jews to take seriously the claim that Jesus is the Messiah of Israel.
 
Third, he states that Christian writers have tended to talk about Israel as in the past tense, as may be seen in the convention of the terminating histories of Israel with the advent of Christianity or with the fall of the second Temple in A.D. 70.

I would add to your second point, or Diprose's second point, they have to completely ignore major portions of both the OT and NT. If you ever get the time you would find it interesting to read the history of replacement theology.

Title: Re: What is so bad about replacement theology?
Post by: Zant Law on July 13, 2012, 10:19:08 AM
I would add to your second point, or Diprose's second point, they have to completely ignore major portions of both the OT and NT. If you ever get the time you would find it interesting to read the history of replacement theology.

You have to ignore a lot of things like the return to the PROMISE LAND 1948.

Law
Title: Re: Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
Post by: savedbymercy on July 14, 2012, 04:53:29 PM
Salvation Limited to Israel


Here are some more scriptures that set forth the particular nature of salvation from types..

In looking forward to the work of the cross and its accomplishments and its attending blessings, and to who they applied, we have this in Zech 12:10

10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Notice here to whom the spiritual blessings of repentance was to be poured out to..

Not everyone in the whole wide world, but to the house of David and the inhabitants of jerusalem..

The Jerusalem here is not the city in Israel, but the jerusalem from above:

Gal 4:12

But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Heb 12:23

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Zech 12 is describing their conversion because of the power and blessings of the cross..

Notice it says the house of David ! The House of David or the Tabernacle of David includes the gentiles..

This we see Acts 15:14-16

14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.


15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

The gentiles are called the tabernacle of David, intimating the mystery that Paul fully taught about in His Ministry, but we see here that the apostle James had somewhat been enlightened of the scripture, for he quotes Amos 9:11-12


11In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:

12That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.

And he of course applies this to the out calling of a people from amongst the gentiles to be a people for Gods name sake..The LORD GOD OF ISRAEL..

Zech 13:1

1In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

Again, particularly pointing out to whom the fountain was open to..that cleanses from sin and uncleaness [the blood of christ] it was not to or for all mankind, but for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the house of David.

These designations indicate Gods elect apart from the other inhabitants of the world..

So God has always kept a particular discriminate people to whom He deals with favorably, over and above other people..and its by His grace alone..
Title: Re: Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
Post by: Zant Law on July 14, 2012, 06:57:02 PM
Quote
10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Notice here to whom the spiritual blessings of repentance was to be poured out to..

Not everyone in the whole wide world, but to the house of David and the inhabitants of jerusalem..

The Jerusalem here is not the city in Israel, but the jerusalem from above:

Now that is a real stretch. I read no limitations of His grace to Jerusalem in this scripture.

9 "And in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced ; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. 11 "In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo.


When we look at the verse in context we see that it can only be a place. We see that verse 9 referrers back to Joel 3. Is the Church going to go into mourning? No of course not, exactly the opposite.

Supersessionism was invented by the church of Rome because there was no Israel for 1900 years and the people of little faith could not imagine that it could ever return, so they had to come up with a way justify the prophecy in the Scriptures.

Title: Re: Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
Post by: theseldomscene on January 27, 2013, 10:34:27 PM
well, as far as replacement theology and the book of romans...
from personal study, rom 12 speaking of all isreal being saved with the fullness of the gentiles coming in, possibly indicates that the promise is to all born of israel but jews who don't believe and die, then reincarnate into gentiles who will...thus all israel is saved.

thoughts?(ducks for cover)
Title: Re: Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
Post by: Fat on January 27, 2013, 11:45:14 PM
well, as far as replacement theology and the book of romans...
from personal study, rom 12 speaking of all isreal being saved with the fullness of the gentiles coming in, possibly indicates that the promise is to all born of israel but jews who don't believe and die, then reincarnate into gentiles who will...thus all israel is saved.

thoughts?(ducks for cover)

You mean Rom 11  :) I know your testing to see if we are paying attention.

God will not go back on His promises to Jew or Gentile. But reincarnate into gentiles, NOT.
Title: Re: Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
Post by: Moss on November 02, 2013, 04:38:33 PM
What you are really talking about here is taking Israel, as defined in the Old Testament, and superimposing the New Testament over it. The trouble you have here is that you leave no room for the return of Israel, as prophesied in the Old Testament, and even the New Testament. You are also removing the Old Testament from Canon, making it illegitimate in today's world.

Let's face it, replacement theology came about because people prior to 1948, had the fear that Israel was not going to return. The church was starting to panic believing that the return of Israel was a false prophecy. What replacement theology shows is a weakness in disbelief or unbelief of man in God's word.
Title: Re: Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
Post by: Zant Law on November 02, 2013, 05:29:50 PM
What you are really talking about here is taking Israel, as defined in the Old Testament, and superimposing the New Testament over it. The trouble you have here is that you leave no room for the return of Israel, as prophesied in the Old Testament, and even the New Testament. You are also removing the Old Testament from Canon, making it illegitimate in today's world.

Let's face it, replacement theology came about because people prior to 1948, had the fear that Israel was not going to return. The church was starting to panic believing that the return of Israel was a false prophecy. What replacement theology shows is a weakness in disbelief or unbelief of man in God's word.

Look at it this way Moss, if you like your plan you can keep your plan, period!  ;)
Title: Re: Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
Post by: Hal on February 08, 2018, 11:13:58 AM
I heard this being preached on TV and was amazed that it had a large following. I wonder if these people believe in the rapture of the church followed by the seven years of tribulation?
Who would be in the tribulation and worship at the new temple?
Title: Re: Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
Post by: Fat on February 08, 2018, 05:20:48 PM
I heard this being preached on TV and was amazed that it had a large following. I wonder if these people believe in the rapture of the church followed by the seven years of tribulation?
Who would be in the tribulation and worship at the new temple?

Hal,These people don't ask themselves such questions. The glom on to out of context Scripture that supports their worldview and are blind to anything else written in the Scriptures.

When the apostles asked Christ why he used parables He replied that its meanings were meant for only those that could understand. The best example that I can think of somebody that has been blinded to the truth is Satan. He knows the Scriptures and he knows what the end result is going to be but he refuses to believe it. He apparently could not see the prophecy of Christ in the crucifixion, and he entered Judas and caused Judas to carry out the plans of God. Satan was as blind as the Jews, as to the nature and mission of the Messiah.
Title: Re: Is supersessionism / replacement theology Biblical?
Post by: Hal on April 07, 2018, 02:29:18 PM
Hal,These people don't ask themselves such questions. The glom on to out of context Scripture that supports their worldview and are blind to anything else written in the Scriptures.

When the apostles asked Christ why he used parables He replied that its meanings were meant for only those that could understand. The best example that I can think of somebody that has been blinded to the truth is Satan. He knows the Scriptures and he knows what the end result is going to be but he refuses to believe it. He apparently could not see the prophecy of Christ in the crucifixion, and he entered Judas and caused Judas to carry out the plans of God. Satan was as blind as the Jews, as to the nature and mission of the Messiah.

Satan invented Death and Taxes, he can't be too smart.