Bible discussion
Bible Talk => Apologetics => Topic started by: JB Horn on July 16, 2010, 08:16:14 pm
-
We have two instances in the Bible where believers were not baptized by the Holy Spirit and therefore their belief was invalid. In acts 8:9-25, we read the story of Simon the magician. The Bible tells us Simon did believe however he had not been baptized by the Holy Spirit and was not truly saved. Simon's belief was so strong that he actually fooled Philip. The other story was also from acts 19:1-7, where some disciples believed and experience the baptism of John the Baptist however they had never heard of the Holy Ghost. Now their are baptism of the Holy Ghost came with the laying on of hands from Paul, unlike those that received the Holy Ghost at Pentecost.
Both John the Baptist and Jesus made the promise of baptism of the Holy Ghost, but it is obvious that some can believe and still not receive the promise of that baptism. And if one does not receive that baptism is belief is not valid. At first look of this it appears confusing but when you consider that Satan himself believes as do all the fallen Angels by his side, it begins to make more sense.
Some of you are probably asking right now how can one know if he has received the Holy Spirit if someone that believes can be without the Holy Spirit.
If you look at the two instances where those that were described as believers were without the Spirit you see that they were either not aware of the existence of the Holy Ghost, or did not believe in the existence of the Holy Ghost. This is in-line with what both Jesus and Paul passed down to us:(John 14:17 ; Rom. 8:14) So I think this is really a moot question or an unneeded concern to those who believe in the Trinity and baptism in the name of the Father the Son and Holy Ghost.
Ask yourself this question would Christ promise something to those who believe in him and love him and seek his guidance and then not deliver on that promise?
JB
-
During your discourse, you make a point that that there were two modes, if you will, of receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit -- As at Pentecost and by the "Laying on of Hands." You then leave off to go onto a discussion of false and true faith/belief, and just touch lightly on the how of Spirit Baptism.
If one were to accept your discussion of mode as complete, we then must conclude that someone in the Apostolic succession is required to validate our faith and complete our salvation/sealing by "The Laying on of Hands." (This plays well for the Apostolic Churches as they claim to be in succession ).
Have you left us with an incomplete understanding of mode?
How does a non-apostolic believer receive the "Baptism"?
Do you see a difference, as some claim, between receiving the Spirit and being Baptized by the Spirit?
-
Hello Proa
We have at least two times in Acts that baptism by (with) the Holy Ghost was given without the laying on of hands. It's not necessary for man to be involved in you receiving His gifts.
JB
-
The two non-hands-on events were "pentacostal style" with the attendant signs and stuff.
So which is the model we are to expect? Is there a third mode of transmittal?
-
John told us that Christ would do the baptising with with the Holy Spirit.
And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
So we know who the He is (Christ) all we have to do is figure out who the you is.
JB
-
FYI
General references
Isa 44:3 ; Joel 2:28-29 ; Zech 12:10 ; Matt 3:11 ; Mark 1:8 ; Luke 3:16 ; Matt 3:16 ; Luke 3:22 ; John 1:32-33 ; Luke 24:49 ; John 3:5 ; Acts 1:5 ; Acts 2:1-4 ; Acts 2:38 ; Acts 2:41 ; Acts 8:15-17 ; Acts 10:38 ; Acts 10:44-45 ; Acts 10:47 ; Acts 11:15-16 ; Acts 19:2 ; 1 Cor 12:13 ; Tit 3:5-6 ; 1 Pet 3:20-21
-
Okay JB, I am reasonably sure that you believe the Bible is inspired by GOD. And GOD said:
Malachi 3:6 (NKJV) 6 "For I am the Lord, I do not change; . . . .
Therefore if we can find ONE clear example of how GOD saved one man, then we will know how HE saves all believers.
Romans 4:3 (KJV)
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
What then is the "Baptism (in?) the Holy Spirit" that you referred to?
Obviously the Chrismatic experiense was not the salvation that was counted unto Abraham for righteousness.
Acts 11:16 (GW)
16 I remembered that the Lord had said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized by the Holy Spirit.'
I know most versions say "with" and only the ASV that I found said "in", but I want to show you why "IN" the Holy Spirit, is very misleading.
What is the "spiritual baptism" that it talks about, and who is doing the baptizing to us, and what is He baptizing us into?
Romans 6:2-3 (ESV)
2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?
3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
1 Corinthians 12:13 (HCSB)
13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
THUS, "you will be baptized by the Holy Spirit."; is a more accurate rendering of what was being said there, that SQUARES with the rest of Scripture.
-
No one was baptized with the Holy Spirit until Christ left, He said I will send Him.
There were instances where the Holy Spirit came over people but that was not a baptism.
Being baptized by the Holy Spirit is part of your salvation it is a gift from God.
iPhone post :)
-
And we are "immersed" into the spiritual body of Christ.
-
You bet. Paul like to use the term 'dead in Christ' and I take that to mean that our souls have risen anew in Him as one.
-
More than our souls come alive at spiritual baptism, which is when the Holy Spirit immerses us into Christ. Literally our human spirits come ALIVE for the very first time. We are born at natural birth with our bodies and souls alive, but NOT our spirits. Our spirits can only be born of the Holy Spirit.
John 3:3 & 5-7 (NKJV)
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
Ephesians 2:5 (NASB)
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
-
More than our souls come alive at spiritual baptism, which is when the Holy Spirit immerses us into Christ. Literally our human spirits come ALIVE for the very first time. We are born at natural birth with our bodies and souls alive, but NOT our spirits. Our spirits can only be born of the Holy Spirit.
John 3:3 & 5-7 (NKJV)
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
Ephesians 2:5 (NASB)
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
What is your definition of a dead spirit? Can a dead spirit be tormented for eternity? If one has no Spirit it can't be tormented in hell can it? Or is it the soul you believe goes to hell?
Have you heard of the term regeneration?
-
Oh yes, the spiritually dead spirit can be tormented for eternity in hell.
Just as the spiritually born again eternally alive spirit has a nature of always loving GOD, the spiritually dead spirit has a nature of always hating GOD.
Let me show you that concept in something that Jesus taught:
Matthew 8:11-12 (ESV)
11 I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven,
12 while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Matthew 22:13-14 (ESV)
13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Matthew 25:30 (ESV)
30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Luke 13:27-28 (ESV)
27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!’
28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out.
Matthew 13:49-50 (NKJV)
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,
50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
Outer darkness is a term that symbolically represents Hades or Hell; while the term "gnashing of teeth" is symbolism for "BITTERNESS". In particular it is eternal bitterness towards GOD. There will be no repentance, or mourning over one's sinfulness in hell, only BITTERNESS towards GOD. The term "gnashing of teeth" is in the Greek tense that implies an action that is always ongoing.
We know from Scripture the every human being is made up of three parts:
1 Thessalonians 5:23 (HCSB)
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely. And may your spirit, soul, and body be kept sound and blameless for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Zechariah 12:1 (HCSB)
1 An Oracle The word of the Lord concerning Israel. A declaration of the Lord, who stretched out the heavens, laid the foundation of the earth, and formed the spirit of man within him.
So the spirit of man is formed at natural birth, but it is spiritually dead in our trespasses, because of the inherited sin from Adam. In other words it is not in tune with the will of GOD, nor is it loving GOD. ONLY when the Holy Spirit has brought our spirit to eternal life, can our spirit be in tune with the will of GOD and truly loves GOD. How then is the term spiritually "dead" applicable? In the same way that faith can be dead:
James 2:26 (NKJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Many confuse soul and spirit as being the same thing, when Scripture clearly points out they are different, and the Word is sharper than a two edge sword able to divide soul and spirit.
My understanding of the three parts of a human being are:
body = the sum total of all the tangible cells.
soul = the sum total of all the intangible parts of the human psyche (thoughts, memories, emotions, feelings, cognative abilities, etc.)
spirit = the part of man continues on leaving the body upon death, going heaven if one is a believer or hades if one is not.
Interestingly, if you look up soul in the Greek you will find that the Greek word for it is psyche.
So how can we prove that it is spirit of the unbeliever that is tormented forever and ever in hades, and later in hell (the Lake of Fire)?
Matthew 10:28 (NKJV)
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
The word "destroy" there does mean "to be totally consumed by" as it would be by fire; BUT NOTICE that HE did not say that about the spirit.
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are.
And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:15 (NKJV)
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 14:11 (NKJV)
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Matthew 25:41 (NASB)
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Matthew 25:46 (NASB)
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
The way I have always taught it, the difference between believers and unbelievers is summed up this way:
Believers are those who want GOD to be part of their lives and they get their wish for ETERNITY, going to be with GOD, which is in heaven.
Unbelievers are those who do NOT want GOD to be part of their lives and they get their wish for ETERNITY, going to where GOD is not, which is in hell, also called the Lake of Fire.
-
Hi VCO.
Let's step back to your quote here for a second.
More than our souls come alive at spiritual baptism, which is when the Holy Spirit immerses us into Christ. Literally our human spirits come ALIVE for the very first time. We are born at natural birth with our bodies and souls alive, but NOT our spirits. Our spirits can only be born of the Holy Spirit.
From what I read here you're claiming that man is born with no spirit.
If this case what does the phrase to be born again mean?
Isn't it true the Christian actually has two spirits? Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, (NAS) we have the spirit of the Lord and our own spirit which has been regenerated by the Holy Ghost. Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,(NAS)
new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration
hence renovation, regeneration, the production of a new life consecrated to God, a radical change of mind for the better. The word often used to denote the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation, as a renewal or restoration of life after death
So it appears that man was in fact born with a spirit, which later upon becoming a Christian, is given a new life (consecrated to God).
And we are taught that even an unsaved person can have more than one spirit. Mark 1:23 Just then there was a man in their synagogue with an unclean spirit ; and he cried out,(NAS)
This is why I question you about a man not having a spirit until he receives his salvation.
So you say that "Our spirits can only be born of the Holy Spirit," and I am pointing out that our spirit is reborn by the work of the Holy Spirit
The spirit a man is born with is headed for eternal torment unless the Holy Spirit calls it to a new life in the new direction.
-
No, you misunderstood what I said.
The spirit of man is there in every human being at natural birth, it is born already dead:
Ephesians 2:4-5 (NIV)
4 But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.
Obviously our bodies were alive at natural birth and so was our soul, (pysche) in the Greek. Therefore, the only part of us that WAS DEAD, but has been made alive by the Holy Spirit the moment we believed, as HE immersed our spirit into the spiritual body of Christ; is our human spirit.
Zechariah 12:1 (NKJV)
1 The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:
Psalms 139:13 (ESV)
13 For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb.
Therefore "born again" is the very moment the Holy Spirit brings our dead spirit to eternal life:
John 3:36 (ESV)
36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Why was it dead at natural birth? Two reasons, the inherited sin nature from Adam and our own sins.
Natural birth gives life to our bodies and soul, BUT the spirit must be born again via the HOLY SPIRIT.
Yes the unbeliever has a dead human spirit in him, he can also be possessed by demonic spirits. There were two demonically possessed men at Gadara, but some of the gospels only mention one because only one did all the talking. Those demons in those two men were cast into 2000 pigs. My math says then, that it is even possible for at least 1000 demons to possess one unbelieving man.
So how many demons can possess a genuine believer who has the Holy Spirit our comforter and teacher in him?
NONE!
1 John 4:4 (NKJV)
4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.
Yes the genuine believer has the omnipresent Holy Spirit in him and HE has caused our human spirit to be born again to eternal life. Yes, prior to that our spiritual nature is to walk away from God. Like I used to teach the inmates when I was a Volunteer Prison Chaplain, "If you do not want God to be part of your life, you will get your wish for eternity. But the only place of total seperation from GOD, is in the Lake of Fire, which is also known as hell."
-
Ok first I am not questioning anyones beliefs because I am totally confused on this subject.
Acts 5
4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”
5 Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last. So great fear came upon all those who heard these things. 6 And the young men arose and wrapped him up, carried him out, and buried him.
HERE he does something to be blasphemy to HOLY GHOST and dies and wife does same same results.
So if you lose GOST die? If you commit Blasphemy you Die maybe why unforgiven.
31 Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”
HERE its HOLY SPIRIT given to those who obey him. NOT just being BAPTIZED but obey which includes Baptism.
Acts 10
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48
HERE they received the HOLY SPIRIT before BAPTISM. So is HOLY SPIRIT sign of Baptism. Can baptism be requirement to get the HOLY SPIRIT?
REVELATION 20
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to
his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [d] 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
HERE I POST due to discussion of burning for eternity. Bible says burn until second death. This is one way I have been told is for eternity as second death NOT possible, but HERE is second DEATH.
-
Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
There are two kinds of baptism one being the water and one being of the Holy Spirit. Baptism of water is done by man, baptism of the Holy Spirit is done by God. John 1:33
The second death is not possible for the saved, that is why Christ was crucified. Paul used to say that he was dead in Christ, meaning that Christ had died for him in his place. Paul was speaking about the second death (HELL).
-
If you commit Blasphemy you Die maybe why unforgiven.
Remember that the Holy Ghost is part of the Godhead, or the Trinity. To blasphemy the Holy Ghost is to turn your back on God. How can that be forgiven? To blasphemy the Holy Ghost is to reject salvation and turn to Satan.
JB
-
The second death is not possible for the saved, that is why Christ was crucified. Paul used to say that he was dead in Christ, meaning that Christ had died for him in his place. Paul was speaking about the second death
(HELL).
[/quote]
Why would "SAVED" be in hell? If no saved in hell then wouldn't the unsaved be able to burn until second death?
-
Hell is the second death and it is eternal.
-
Hell is the second death and it is eternal.
Ok sorry :( I just wanted to know why it says this is second death. :( :( :(
-
May I try to simplify the answers to the confusion.
I will start with Christ. He provided Victory over death (the Second Death that is), for all Believers. Yes, the second death is enternal and goes on and on. I is not like the mortal death, that we all face ONCE. Think of Death as being Seperated from Life, and the light comes on. Hell is eternal seperation from eternal Life, which is in the very presence of GOD. And the only place that GOD is not, is Hell, or the Lake of Fire, whichever you prefer to call it. We all deserve eternity in Hell, but because of HIS GRACE and MERCY, we will receive eternity in the presence of GOD instead. NOT because of anything we have done, but purely because of what CHRIST DID ON THE CROSS.
As for Ananias and Sapphira, people frequently get confused about that historical story; because they ask the WRONG question: "Why did God kill them?" The RIGHT question, makes the story much easier to understand: "Why has God not killed us when we too have lied to HIM or broken a promise to HIM?" It is an object lesson in HIS perfectly JUST nature, and HIS perfect GRACE and MERCY. I do not see that they blasphemed the Holy Spirit, though. Yes they promised to give every penny to the ministry, of whatever they got by selling that piece of property; but when they received more money than they expected, the conspired to keep some of it for themselves. That is not blaspheming the Holy Spirit. My understanding of what is blaspheming the Holy Spirit, is when one rejects that "Jesus is God in the flesh", the very information that the Holy Spirit uses to bring us to BELIEVE and Recieve Jesus Christ as Lord. Thus, rejecting that information IS BLASHEMING THE MOST IMPORTANT WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. And hopefully before you even think it, "What about those who never heard the name Jesus Christ mentioned?"
Romans 1:20 (HCSB)
20 For His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what He has made. As a result, people are without excuse.
Jesus is the Creator:
Colossians 1:16-19 (HCSB)
16 For everything was created by Him, in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and by Him all things hold together.
18 He is also the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He might come to have first place in everything.
19 For God was pleased ⌊to have⌋ all His fullness dwell in Him,
For one to look at nature and come to the conclusion, that nature is not a result of a miracle of GOD; is that not the same as the Pharasees that followed Jesus and came to conclusion that they did not believe Jesus was doing those miracles by the power of GOD? In the same way, if one who has never heard the name Jesus, looks at nature and comes to the conclusion that there has to be a single Creator GOD that made all of this; is that not the same as believing in the Creator, whom whe know is Jesus? Abraham believed GOD and it was counted unto him as righteousness. THUS if the Native Americans before the white man got here, looked at Nature, the only Bible they had back then, and it had written on it the glory of GOD's power and attributes, and they came to the conclusion that there obviously is a Creator, and He is Thee Great Spirit; then I have to believe GOD counted that belief in HIM as righteousness.
-
THUS if the Native Americans before the white man got here, looked at Nature, the only Bible they had back then, and it had written on it the glory of GOD's power and attributes, and they came to the conclusion that there obviously is a Creator, and He is Thee Great Spirit; then I have to believe GOD counted that belief in HIM as righteousness.
WOW there cowboy!!
Sun worshipers, bear worshipers, eagle worshipers? Crediting the creation to a false idol counted as righteousness?
Abraham believed (had faith) in the coming of a savior. After all isn't that what God promised him? Genesis 12:1-3
-
John 14:6 NAS
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life ; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
I agree with JB and trust Christ to be telling the truth.
-
Interesting the Mormons teach that those native American Indians were all Jews.
BB
-
And the Mormons teach the God the Father was a man who became a god.
And the Mormons teach that the deified man called God the Father, came down and fooled around with Mary, impregnating her, and that is where Jesus comes from.
And the Mormons teach that Jesus is the brother of Lucifer.
And the Mormons teach that if you are a really good Mormon male, you to can become a god ruling over your own universe.
And the Mormons teach that the Council of the gods got together and decided to create this universe.
And Joseph Smith and Brigham Young both taught that "if you need to spill your brother's blood to save his immortal soul, then by all means spill it." And in some of the stricter Mormon families, that practice still goes on.
And the Mormons teach that the Bible is full of contraditions.
And the Mormons teach that you can get baptized for the dead, bringing them to become Mormons after death.
And the Mormons teach that additional books can be added to the Bible and they too are to be considered Scripture.
And so on, and so on, and so on. So how can it be interesting that they think the Native American Tribes were Jews?
-
I did not say all Native American Tribes did I? Re-read my post and you will see that I was talking about the mono-theistic tribes, that worshipped "Thee Great Spirit".
-
Quote
John 14:6 NAS
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life ; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
I agree with JB and trust Christ to be telling the truth.
And if your RECOGNIZE HIM as the Creator, even though no one has ever told them His biblical name, they still are coming through Him.
Romans 1:20 (NKJV)
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
Colossians 1:16-20 (NKJV)
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,
20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
2 Corinthians 5:19 (HCSB)
19 That is, in Christ, God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed the message of reconciliation to us.
-
And so on, and so on, and so on. So how can it be interesting that they think the Native American Tribes were Jews?
I did not say all Native American Tribes did I? Re-read my post and you will see that I was talking about the mono-theistic tribes, that worshipped "Thee Great Spirit".
Did the American Indians believe in salvation or have any conception that there could be salvation? That is the faith that saved Abraham it was not the fact that he believed that a creator.
1. If they were Jews then your statement would have some validity to it.
2. I don't know of any tribes that worship the great spirit as you put it, without first assigning that great spirit an object or animal that could be seen by them.
3. I do know of some present-day man that believes that the earth is in fact God. Or that God is in all things.
4. You seem to be saying that the American Indians did not need Christ blood for their salvation. If all they had to believe was that there was a creator then the Jews did not need Christ either.
5. The Muslims have a very strong faith in the creator as do many other religions.
Fat nailed it with Jhn 14:6.
-
And if your RECOGNIZE HIM as the Creator, even though no one has ever told them His biblical name, they still are coming through Him.
Romans 1:20 (NKJV)
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
Colossians 1:16-20 (NKJV)
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,
20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
2 Corinthians 5:19 (HCSB)
19 That is, in Christ, God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed the message of reconciliation to us.
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. NAS
Can you be saved without acknowledging your sin against the creator?
-
Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved ;
Acts 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved ?"31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
-
Did the American Indians believe in salvation or have any conception that there could be salvation? That is the faith that saved Abraham it was not the fact that he believed that a creator.
1. If they were Jews then your statement would have some validity to it.
2. I don't know of any tribes that worship the great spirit as you put it, without first assigning that great spirit an object or animal that could be seen by them.
3. I do know of some present-day man that believes that the earth is in fact God. Or that God is in all things.
4. You seem to be saying that the American Indians did not need Christ blood for their salvation. If all they had to believe was that there was a creator then the Jews did not need Christ either.
5. The Muslims have a very strong faith in the creator as do many other religions.
Fat nailed it with Jhn 14:6.
22 So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. 23 For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;
2 Corinthians 5:19 (NASB)
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
1 John 2:2 (NASB)
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
Romans 5:12-13 (NASB)
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Romans 4:3 (NKJV)
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
Abraham NEVER heard the name JESUS, and Never used the Name JESUS.
2 Peter 2:19-21 (ESV)
19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
You are accountable for the LIGHT you have been given, not for the LIGHT you have never been given. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE HERE AND NOW, becuase Muslims have heard about JESUS and scoff at the idea that HE is GOD in the flesh. THUS they have rejected the TRUTH or LIGHT that they were given, thus in my opinion they are blaspheming what the HOLY SPIRIT is trying to get them to believe. With some people all we can do is make them accountable for the truth. The TRUTH that the Native Americans were given prior to the white man getting here with the BIBLE for the first time; was the glory of GOD written in Creation. Every human being is accountable for that LIGHT. As for the blood of Christ, HE SHEAD IT FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD. The only sin anyone goes to hell for, is rejecting Jesus Christ as their LORD, denying He is GOD in the flesh. THAT is the only unforgivable sin.
-
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. NAS
Can you be saved without acknowledging your sin against the creator?
Malachi 3:6 (NKJV)
6 "For I am the Lord, I do not change; . . ."
THEREFORE, if we can find out how GOD saved one man, we will KNOW exactly how GOD saves ALL MEN.
Galatians 3:5-6 (ESV)
5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—
6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
NO, Abraham was not saved by faith, PLUS acknowledging his sin against the creator.
Acknowledging our sin, and confessing it, IS a bi-product characteristic of being saved by GRACE, through FAITH, and NOT BY WORKS.
-
Acknowledging our sin, and confessing it, IS a bi-product characteristic of being saved by GRACE, through FAITH, and NOT BY WORKS.
Ephesians 2:8 KJV
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Romans 10:17 KJV
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
The Indians had no faith because they had no hearing of the Gospel. However the gospel was preached even in Genesis before the coming of Christ to the Jews
.
This doctrine that you're trying to preach does two things, it removes the need for the great commission that Christ gave us, it also takes the Holy Ghost out of the process of salvation which is very dangerous.
Scriptures you have chosen do not back up your claim. Abraham believed God the American Indians had not heard God.
The TRUTH that the Native Americans were given prior to the white man getting here with the BIBLE for the first time; was the glory of GOD written in Creation. Every human being is accountable for that LIGHT. As for the blood of Christ, HE SHEAD IT FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD. The only sin anyone goes to hell for, is rejecting Jesus Christ as their LORD, denying He is GOD in the flesh. THAT is the only unforgivable sin.
This argument is absolutely stupid, you're saying that missionaries that go out and preach to tribes in the Amazons, are condemning those people to death by giving them the gospel. In another words if these missionaries would just leave them alone to their belief that there is a creator then they would've gone to heaven. But now many of them will die in hell because they heard the gospel.
Maybe Christ should've said that his disciples that they should've gone out and preached creation and not preached Christ. It would be much easier for the disciples to sell just Genesis 1 and not the whole Bible.
-
becuase Muslims have heard about JESUS and scoff at the idea that HE is GOD in the flesh.
Actually many Muslims have not heard the Gospel of Christ because it is a capital crime preach this gospel in many of the Muslim nations. Yes they know the name Christ but nothing more of His Gospel and his teachings.
-
NO, Abraham was not saved by faith, PLUS acknowledging his sin against the creator.
Abraham NEVER heard the name JESUS, and Never used the Name JESUS
And why was Abraham practicing blood sacrifices?
It is not the name of Jesus but the name of Emanuel (God is with us) that man must hear.
-
The Indians had no faith because they had no hearing of the Gospel. However the gospel was preached even in Genesis before the coming of Christ to the Jews
. . .
This doctrine that you're trying to preach does two things, it removes the need for the great commission that Christ gave us, it also takes the Holy Ghost out of the process of salvation which is very dangerous.
. . .
This argument is absolutely stupid, you're saying that missionaries that go out and preach to tribes in the Amazons, are condemning those people to death by giving them the gospel. In another words if these missionaries would just leave them alone to their belief that there is a creator then they would've gone to heaven. But now many of them will die in hell because they heard the gospel.
Maybe Christ should've said that his disciples that they should've gone out and preached creation and not preached Christ. It would be much easier for the disciples to sell just Genesis 1 and not the whole Bible.
Incredible! Do you ever really read my posts, or do you always just skim over them fast and ASSUME you know what I said, then proceed to misquote and at your assumptions to my comments and THEREBY TOTALLY DISTORT MY COMMENTS.
Not hearing the GOSPEL, in YOUR opinion equals NO FAITH, and NO SALVATION. You just eliminated ALL of the Old Testament saints, including Adam and Eve and ALL of the Old Testament writers and prophets. You in your twisted understanding, appear to be saying all infants who die, go to hell because they did not hear the Gospel. Are you condeming all deaf people too? You said, "The gospel was preached even in Genesis". Now how about giving us YOUR definition of the Gospel.
The term “gospel” occurs frequently in the NT in both noun and verb forms, literally meaning “good news” or “proclaiming good news.”—Holman Illustrated Bible Dictionary
It is the rendering of the Greek evangelion, i.e., "good message." It denotes (1) "the welcome intelligence of salvation to man as preached by our Lord and his followers. (2.) It was afterwards transitively applied to each of the four histories of our Lord's life, published by those who are therefore called 'Evangelists', writers of the history of the gospel (the evangelion). (3.) The term is often used to express collectively the gospel doctrines; and 'preaching the gospel' is often used to include not only the proclaiming of the good tidings, but the teaching men how to avail themselves of the offer of salvation, the—Easton's Illustrated Dictionary
In the New Testament the Greek word euaggelion, means "good news." It proclaims tidings of deliverance. The word sometimes stands for the record of the life of our Lord (Mark 1:1), embracing all His teachings, as in Acts 20:24. But the word "gospel" now has a peculiar use, and describes primarily the message which Christianity announces. "Good news" is its significance. It means a gift from God. It is the proclamation of the forgiveness of sins and sonship with God restored through Christ.—International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
The Great Commission is THE PRIMARY COMMAND TO THE CHURCH AND ALL CHRISTIANS. Nothing I said negates OUR responsibility to GO AND MAKE DISCIPLES, TEACHING THEM TO OBEY HIM. In fact those who do not think they have to OBEY HIM, and do their part to make disciples, are proving that the are lying about "KNOWING HIM", 1 John 2:4. You are inserting assumptions from your mind, into my comments.
YES if we share the Gospel with someone, WE MAKE THEM ACCOUNTABLE FOR THAT TRUTH. As for sharing CHRIST with them, with all "ETHNOS", THAT is what we are supposed to do, if we really are Christians. To those who live up to the Light that God has given them, to them GOD has promised to give them more Light.
Mark 4:24 (NKJV)
24 Then He said to them, "Take heed what you hear. With the same measure you use, it will be measured to you; and to you who hear, more will be given.
YOU ARE ADDING TO THE SIMPLICITY OF THE GOSPEL. If you believe what GOD has revealed to you, GOD will count it as righteousness:
Romans 4:3 (ESV)
3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
-
Not hearing the GOSPEL, in YOUR opinion equals NO FAITH, and NO SALVATION.
I believe the Bible to be true.
Romans 10:17 KJV
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Ephesians 2:8 KJV
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Galatians 3:2 KJV
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3:5 KJV
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Luke 7:50 KJV
And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
Luke 18:42 KJV
And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight : thy faith hath saved thee.
Good News To Adam
So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, "Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life. And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."
Good news To Us
Now tell us again about the good news your American Indians received.
-
Incredible! Do you ever really read my posts, or do you always just skim over them fast and ASSUME you know what I said, then proceed to misquote and at your assumptions to my comments and THEREBY TOTALLY DISTORT MY COMMENTS.
Not hearing the GOSPEL, in YOUR opinion equals NO FAITH, and NO SALVATION. You just eliminated ALL of the Old Testament saints, including Adam and Eve and ALL of the Old Testament writers and prophets. You in your twisted understanding, appear to be saying all infants who die, go to hell because they did not hear the Gospel. Are you condeming all deaf people too? You said, "The gospel was preached even in Genesis". Now how about giving us YOUR definition of the Gospel.
The Great Commission is THE PRIMARY COMMAND TO THE CHURCH AND ALL CHRISTIANS. Nothing I said negates OUR responsibility to GO AND MAKE DISCIPLES, TEACHING THEM TO OBEY HIM. In fact those who do not think they have to OBEY HIM, and do their part to make disciples, are proving that the are lying about "KNOWING HIM", 1 John 2:4. You are inserting assumptions from your mind, into my comments.
YES if we share the Gospel with someone, WE MAKE THEM ACCOUNTABLE FOR THAT TRUTH. As for sharing CHRIST with them, with all "ETHNOS", THAT is what we are supposed to do, if we really are Christians. To those who live up to the Light that God has given them, to them GOD has promised to give them more Light.
Mark 4:24 (NKJV)
24 Then He said to them, "Take heed what you hear. With the same measure you use, it will be measured to you; and to you who hear, more will be given.
YOU ARE ADDING TO THE SIMPLICITY OF THE GOSPEL. If you believe what GOD has revealed to you, GOD will count it as righteousness:
Romans 4:3 (ESV)
3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
VCO
Just for curiosity sake and so I know whom I am talking to, could you explain to me how many ways there are to heaven other than the Gospel of Christ.
-
I believe the Bible to be true.
Romans 10:17 KJV
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
. . .
Now tell us again about the good news your American Indians received.
THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT. Part of His WORD is written into everything HE created:
Romans 1:20 (NKJV)
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
Everything necessary to BELIEVE in GOD is written BY HIM into the things HE CREATED.
John 10:16 (NKJV)
16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
-
VCO
Just for curiosity sake and so I know whom I am talking to, could you explain to me how many ways there are to heaven other than the Gospel of Christ.
I already did, you either skim over what I write and INSERT YOUR OPINIONS about what I said, or do not read them at all. ONCE AGAIN:
Malachi 3:6 (NKJV)
6 "For I am the Lord, I do not change; . . .
THEREFORE, if we can find ONE example of HOW GOD saved a man, we will know how GOD saves all who believe in HIM.
Romans 4:3 (ISV)
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
THAT FAITH LIKE ABRAHAM'S THEREFORE is the ONE way to Salvation,
NOT Faith Plus speaking in tongues.
NOT Faith Plus Christian water Baptism.
NOT Faith Plus hearing the Good News from a Preacher.
NOT Faith Plus Good Works.
NOT Faith Plus Church Membership.
NOT Faith Plus anything.
Good Works, spiritual gifts, Christian Water Baptism, Church Membership, etc., etc.; are all thing that we DO after we are SAVED by GRACE, not to get saved. AND YES everyone comes through Jesus Christ, who has that same FAITH that Abraham had; EVEN IF YOU NEVER HEARD THE NAME WE USE, JESUS CHRIST. YES, the JEWS who truly knew HIM only as "Messiah" were saved through Jesus Christ, because HE IS THE MESSIAH. YES the monotheistic natives of the world who truly knew HIM as "The Great Spirit who created everything" or some other name meaning Creator were saved through Jesus Christ, because HE IS THAT CREATOR. YES, Faith comes through hearing the Word taught, but it is also available through what HE HAS WRITTEN into everything HE CREATED. That is why NO ONE WHO REJECTS HIM has any excuse. They cannot even claim, it is not my fault, because no one ever told me about Jesus Christ.
Colossians 1:16-18 (NKJV)
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Salvation is PURELY a work of the Holy Spirit, that we do not get to claim credit for. YES we in obediance share what we learned about CHRIST, and if because of that testimony or sermon, someone gets saved, it is NOT because of us. Therefore I do not believe in bragging about how many we led to the LORD, or baptized, (what I call TV preacher scalp hunting). We are just the sower of the seed, NOT the creator of the seed.
Or like my pastor used to say, "We are just the bus boys serving the food that HE PREPARED, therefore ALL the glory belongs to HIM.
Isaiah 55:11-13 (NKJV)
11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.
12 "For you shall go out with joy, And be led out with peace; The mountains and the hills Shall break forth into singing before you, And all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
13 Instead of the thorn shall come up the cypress tree, And instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree; And it shall be to the Lord for a name, For an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off."
Luke 19:40 (NKJV)
40 But He answered and said to them, "I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out."
So whether the new believer heard a disciple proclaiming Who JESUS CHRIST IS, or heard the very stones HE created proclaim HIM as THEE CREATOR, it is ALL part of the SAME work of Salvation that ONLY the Holy Spirit gets credit for.
Jeremiah 33:2-3 (GW)
2 “I made {the earth}, formed it, and set it in place. My name is the Lord. This is what the Lord says:
3 Call to me, and I will answer you. I will tell you great and mysterious things that you do not know.
I am a very old-style conservative Evangelical, about as far from the modern Evangelical Liberalism as I can get, and I am very DEFINATELY NOT a Charismatic or Pentecostal.
Does that answer your question? Sorry I am late answering these, but I have been very busy the last few days.
-
Something else Fat, that you appear to have missed; and it may be because you have not yet focused on ALL of the LORD's work; which I find frequently in Churches that think they are the only true Church. When Missionaries go to remote tribes, YES for the majority of them they are ENTLIGHTENING them to Truths about Jesus Christ; BUT for a few they are simply giving them MORE LIGHT than they had before.
Missionaries to the Cherokee finally learned that Truth of our Creator:
http://www.cherokeediscovery.com/greatspirit.html (http://www.cherokeediscovery.com/greatspirit.html)
-
Something else Fat, that you appear to have missed; and it may be because you have not yet focused on ALL of the LORD's work; which I find frequently in Churches that think they are the only true Church. When Missionaries go to remote tribes, YES for the majority of them they are ENTLIGHTENING them to Truths about Jesus Christ; BUT for a few they are simply giving them MORE LIGHT than they had before.
Missionaries to the Cherokee finally learned that Truth of our Creator:
http://www.cherokeediscovery.com/greatspirit.html (http://www.cherokeediscovery.com/greatspirit.html)
The Cherokees had a strong belief that there were certain beings who came down from the skies formed the world, the moon and the stars. It was believed that the world was created at the time of the new moon of autumn, when the fruits of the earth were ripe.
In the Cherokee religion the sun appears to have been the pricipal object of worship. The Cherokee's would pray to the sun to bring abundant crops and good health. The Cherokee Indians held a festival called the new Moon Festival in which they paid hnor to the moon.
The following is an excerpt about the Cherokee Indian Religion: The moon was also considered to be important in religion and at every New Moon Festival special honor was paid to the moon. Fire was supposed to have been appointed by the sun and the moon to take care of mankind. It was considered as being intermediate to the sun and the smoke is symbolized as the messenger of the fire that would make known the petitions of the people to the sun. The Cherokees believed the morning star was once a wicked priest who killed people by witchcraft. When the Indians planned to kill him, he took all his shining crystals and flew away to the sky where he appeared as the morning star ever after.
(excerpt source)
The Cherokees believed in an after life and those who had behaved in a "good" manner went toa place that was light and pleasant. Those who had behaved poorly would be sent to a bad place and face torture. It was believed there were seven heavens, with the Supreme Being residing in the first heaven.
-
Something else Fat, that you appear to have missed; and it may be because you have not yet focused on ALL of the LORD's work; which I find frequently in Churches that think they are the only true Church. When Missionaries go to remote tribes, YES for the majority of them they are ENTLIGHTENING them to Truths about Jesus Christ; BUT for a few they are simply giving them MORE LIGHT than they had before.
Missionaries to the Cherokee finally learned that Truth of our Creator:
http://www.cherokeediscovery.com/greatspirit.html (http://www.cherokeediscovery.com/greatspirit.html)
http://www.aaanativearts.com/cherokee/cherokee-religion.htm (http://www.aaanativearts.com/cherokee/cherokee-religion.htm)
Cherokee Religion and Traditional Tsalagi Religious Beliefs
The Cherokee did not view the earth as the "mother" of the human people, as the Sioux do, but as a place made for the Human People to live and which in and of itself was also a living thing. Se-lu, the Corn Mother, was viewed as the mother of the human people in ancient Cherokee legends.
-
Something else Fat, that you appear to have missed; and it may be because you have not yet focused on ALL of the LORD's work; which I find frequently in Churches that think they are the only true Church. When Missionaries go to remote tribes, YES for the majority of them they are ENTLIGHTENING them to Truths about Jesus Christ; BUT for a few they are simply giving them MORE LIGHT than they had before.
Missionaries to the Cherokee finally learned that Truth of our Creator:
http://www.cherokeediscovery.com/greatspirit.html (http://www.cherokeediscovery.com/greatspirit.html)
(http://demclowns.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/obama.gif)
IT MUST BE TRUE I READ IT ON THE INTERNET!
2 tim 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness
By the way remember that Abraham actually spoke face to face with Christ.
-
I disagree with where you draw the Line, but I agree with where GOD draws the Line.
John 1:12 (NKJV)
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
It does not say they had to have known that HIS NAME, also became Jesus Christ, when HE chose to become incarnate.
Matthew 25:40 (NKJV)
40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
http://www.cherokeediscovery.com/ancientbeliefs.html (http://www.cherokeediscovery.com/ancientbeliefs.html)
Remember ONLY eight People got off the Ark, and ALL of them were Believers.
1 Peter 3:19-20 (GW)
19 In it he also went to proclaim his victory to the spirits kept in prison.
20 They are like those who disobeyed long ago in the days of Noah when God waited patiently while Noah built the ship. In this ship a few people—eight in all—were saved by water.
-
I disagree with where you draw the Line, but I agree with where GOD draws the Line.
John 1:12 (NKJV)
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
It does not say they had to have known that HIS NAME, also became Jesus Christ, when HE chose to become incarnate.
Matthew 25:40 (NKJV)
40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
http://www.cherokeediscovery.com/ancientbeliefs.html (http://www.cherokeediscovery.com/ancientbeliefs.html)
Remember ONLY eight People got off the Ark, and ALL of them were Believers.
1 Peter 3:19-20 (GW)
19 In it he also went to proclaim his victory to the spirits kept in prison.
20 They are like those who disobeyed long ago in the days of Noah when God waited patiently while Noah built the ship. In this ship a few people—eight in all—were saved by water.
Yeah you know the Bible has a lot of good stuff in.
2 tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, will accumulate teachers for themselves because they have an itch to hear something new.
galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before , so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received , let him be accursed.
Of course that is nothing like the good stuff you found on the Internet.
-
From the Cherokee Nation's official web site.
http://www.cherokee.org/AboutTheNation/Culture/General/24405/Information.aspx (http://www.cherokee.org/AboutTheNation/Culture/General/24405/Information.aspx)
In the search for order and then to sustain that order, the Cherokee of old devised a belief system that, while appearing at first to be complex, is actually quite simple. Many of the elements of the original system remain in place with traditional Cherokee today. Although some of these elements have evolved or otherwise been modified, this belief system is an integral part of day-to-day life for many.
Certain numbers play an important role in the ceremonies of the Cherokee. The numbers four and seven repeatedly occur in myths, stories and ceremonies. The number four represents all the familiar forces, also represented in the four cardinal directions. These directions are east, west, north and south. Certain colors are also associated with these directions. The number seven represents the seven clans of the Cherokee, and are also associated with directions. In addition to the four cardinal directions, three others exist. Up (the Upper World), down (the Lower World) and center (where we live and where you always are).
The number seven also represents the height of purity and sacredness, a difficult level to attain. In olden times it was believed that only the owl and cougar had attained this level and thus have always had a special meaning to the Cherokee. The pine, cedar, spruce, holly and laurel also attained this level and play a very important role in Cherokee ceremonies. Cedar is the most sacred of all, and the distinguishing colors of red and white set it off from all others. The wood from the tree is considered very sacred, and in ancient days it was used to carry the honored dead.
Because of these early beliefs, the traditional Cherokee have a special regard for the owl and cougar. They are honored in some versions of the Creation story because they were the only two animals who were able to stay awake for the seven nights of Creation, the others having fallen asleep. Today, because of this, they are nocturnal in their habits and both have exceptional night vision.
The owl is seemingly different from other birds, resembling an old man as he walks. Sometimes the owl can be mistaken for a cat because of his feather tufts and the silhouette of his head. This resemblance honors his nocturnal brother, the cougar. The owl's eyes are quite large and are set directly in front like humans, and he can close one eye independently of the other. The cougar's screams resemble those of a woman; further, he is an animal posessing secretive and unpredictable habits.
Cedar, pine, spruce, laurel and holly trees carry leaves all year long. These plants, too, stayed awake seven nights during the Creation. Because of this they were given special power and they are among the most important plants in Cherokee medicine and ceremonies.
Traditionally the Cherokee are deeply concerned with keeping things separated and in the proper classification or category. For example, when sacred items are not in use they are wrapped in deerskin or white cloth, and kept in a special box or other place.
The circle is another symbol familiar to traditional Cherokee. The Stomp Dance and other ceremonies involve movements in a circular pattern. In ancient times, the fire in the council house was built by arranging the wood in a continuous "X" so that the fire would burn in a circular path.
The river, or "Long Man," was always believed to be sacred, and the practice of going to water for purification and other ceremonies was at one time very common. Today the river or any other body of moving water, such as a creek, is considered a sacred site and going to water is still a respected practice by some Cherokees.
The everyday cultural world of the Cherokee includes spiritual beings. Even though the beings are different from people and animals, they are not considered "supernatural", but are very much a part of the natural, real world. Most Cherokee at some point in their lives will relate having had an experience with these spiritual beings.
A group of spiritual beings still spoken of by many Cherokee is the Little People. They cannot be seen by man unless they wish it. When they allow themselves to be seen, they appear very much like any other Cherokee, except they are very small, and have long hair, sometimes reaching all the way to the ground.
The Little People live in various places; rocky shelters, caves in the mountains or laurel thickets. They like drumming and dancing and they often help children who appear to be lost. Not just those geographically lost, but children who appear saddened and confused. They are also known to be quite mischievous at times. The Little People should be dealt with carefully, and it is necessary to observe some traditional rules regarding them.
They don't like being disturbed and may cause a person who continually bothers them to become "puzzled" throughout life. Because of this, traditional Cherokees will not investigate or look when they believe they hear Little People. If one of the Little People is accidentally seen, or if he or she chooses to show himself, it is not to be discussed or told of for at least seven years. It is common practice to not speak about the Little People after nightfall.
Traditional Cherokees also believe that after a person dies, his soul often continues to live on as a ghost. Ghosts are believed to have the ability to materialize where some, but not all people, can see them.
Very basic to the Cherokee belief system is the premise that good is rewarded and evil is punished. Even though the Cherokee have a strict belief in this type of justice, there are times when things happen that the system just does not explain. It is often believed that these events are caused by someone using medicine for evil purposes.
Witchcraft among the Cherokee does not resemble that of non-Indian cultures. To understand and respect the beliefs of traditional Cherokee about using medicine, conjuring, and witchcraft you must first consider early Indian societies and consider how this has remained an integral part of Cherokee culture even up to the present day. There are ordinary witches and then there are killer witches. Ordinary witches are actually considered the more dangerous since a person can never be sure he is dealing with one and they are more difficult to counteract. They may even deceive a medicine person and cause them to prescribe the wrong cure if not they aren't careful. One killer witch still spoken of often by traditionalists today is the Raven Mocker.
Today, although many Cherokee still consult with medicine people regarding problems, both mental and physical, some will not see a medicine man for any reason and refuse to acknowledge their powers. Some believe in using both Cherokee medicine and licensed medical doctors and the health care systems.
The knowledge held by the medicine men or women is very broad. They work and study for years committing to memory the syllabary manuscripts passed on by the ones who taught them. Many formulas have been documented in Cherokee syllabary writing in books ranging from small notebooks to full-blown ledgers. If the words are not spoken or sung in the Cherokee language, they have no affect. Until the words have been memorized the medicine person may refer to his book. This does not compromise his abilities, after all; modern medical practitioners often refer back to their medical texts and other reference books as well. The writings in these traditional books are strictly guarded and anyone who is not "in training" is forbidden to study or even read the books.
The spoken words are usually accompanied by some physical procedure, such as the use of a specially prepared tobacco, or drink. Medicine people themselves must be, and remain in perfect health for their powers to be at peak.
-
Yeah you know the Bible has a lot of good stuff in.
Of course that is nothing like the good stuff you found on the Internet.
No, you would be wrong there, my FAITH, is sound as the ROCK Himself, ever since the last week of 1978.
That is when I fell on my knees and surrendered control of my life to JESUS CHRIST as LORD (which means MASTER).
And it only took three attempts at suicide to get me to that point of total surrender with a broken contrite heart.
HE has been leading my life every since, including the 15 years He had me serve HIM as Volunteer Protestant Prison Chaplain
in two different Super-Max Prisons. He has been doing a MUCH BETTER job of running my life than I ever did, and I am
happier than I ever thought possible.
Where do I find the "good stuff" as you put it? NOT ON THE INTERNET, but rather in my WORDsearch 7 Library, and in sermons by Dr. John MacArthur Jr., Dr. Charles Stanley, Dr. Ed Young, Dr. Richard Lee, Dr. Gil Rugh, Dr. Chuck Swindoll, Dr. Adrian Rogers, Dr. Zola Levitt, as well as my local Pastors.
-
No, you would be wrong there, my FAITH, is sound as the ROCK Himself, ever since the last week of 1978.
That is when I fell on my knees and surrendered control of my life to JESUS CHRIST as LORD (which means MASTER).
And it only took three attempts at suicide to get me to that point of total surrender with a broken contrite heart.
HE has been leading my life every since, including the 15 years He had me serve HIM as Volunteer Protestant Prison Chaplain
in two different Super-Max Prisons. He has been doing a MUCH BETTER job of running my life than I ever did, and I am
happier than I ever thought possible.
Where do I find the "good stuff" as you put it? NOT ON THE INTERNET, but rather in my WORDsearch 7 Library, and in sermons by Dr. John MacArthur Jr., Dr. Charles Stanley, Dr. Ed Young, Dr. Richard Lee, Dr. Gil Rugh, Dr. Chuck Swindoll, Dr. Adrian Rogers, Dr. Zola Levitt, as well as my local Pastors.
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
Neither MacArthur nor Stanley ever preach your view of the how faith is delivered to man. I'll say the same thing about Calvin, Gill and Spurgeon.
You have been shown here that the Gospel has been preached since the fall of Adam. There is no salvation in the beliefs of the ancient Cherokee. They never HEARD the promise as did Adam and Abraham. They never got the good news. There's not a two-tier system of salvation.
You have a good day VCO.
-
And they do come to HIM even when they call HIM Creator.
Colossians 1:16-18 (HCSB)
16 For everything was created by Him, in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and by Him all things hold together.
18 He is also the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He might come to have first place in everything.
HE IS CREATOR.
HE is also the head of the body, the church.
-
And they do come to HIM even when they call HIM Creator.
Colossians 1:16-18 (HCSB)
16 For everything was created by Him, in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and by Him all things hold together.
18 He is also the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He might come to have first place in everything.
HE IS CREATOR.
HE is also the head of the body, the church.
Two points the first I'll let Paul make for me.
Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed ? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard ? and how shall they hear without a preacher ?
The second point is from my heart to yours.
You said to BB.
You are accountable for the LIGHT you have been given, not for the LIGHT you have never been given. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE HERE AND NOW, becuase Muslims have heard about JESUS and scoff at the idea that HE is GOD in the flesh. THUS they have rejected the TRUTH or LIGHT that they were given, thus in my opinion they are blaspheming what the HOLY SPIRIT is trying to get them to believe. With some people all we can do is make them accountable for the truth. The TRUTH that the Native Americans were given prior to the white man getting here with the BIBLE for the first time; was the glory of GOD written in Creation. Every human being is accountable for that LIGHT. As for the blood of Christ, HE SHEAD IT FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD. The only sin anyone goes to hell for, is rejecting Jesus Christ as their LORD, denying He is GOD in the flesh. THAT is the only unforgivable sin.
Your first sentence in this paragraph contradicts last. I also read in this paragraph that you do not believe that the gospel must be preached and understood by the person before they receive salvation. The Gospel, the good news, was not understood by the Cherokee Indians because they had no knowledge or way to gain the knowledge that the Creator did in fact come to this earth and sacrifice himself for their salvation. (John 1:1-14)
The Cherokees, Arapaho, the Apaches, the Nezperce may have believed in the great spirit creator, but they never believed that He came to this earth and sacrificed himself to conquer death on our behalf. The good news is not that there is a creator but there is a Creator that love them enough to sacrifice Himself.
No sin no matter what it is, is going to be forgiven unless the person who committed the sin repents and ask for forgiveness. When you find an ancient Cherokee that never send your find a Cherokee that went to heaven.
You are Arminianism in theology which commonly leads to straying from the Bible and the sovereignty of God. (Just a note here, it is kind of strange that you listen to Calvinist sermons.)
Another problem I see in your post is that you do not understand what you have to have faith in to be saved.
Because if you confess with your mouth "Jesus is Lord" and in your heart you have faith that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
The good news is about the conquering of death by Christ, not that there is a Creator.
-
Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved ;
Acts 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved ?"31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
I think you need to back this train up a bit.
"Fo it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous."Rom. 2:13 One of the things you all have to understand is that a change was made to the law after Jesus' was crucified by adding a word to it. The Holy Spirit is only given to the people who have the faith to obey what this law demands.
-
I think you need to back this train up a bit.
"Fo it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous."Rom. 2:13 One of the things you all have to understand is that a change was made to the law after Jesus' was crucified by adding a word to it. The Holy Spirit is only given to the people who have the faith to obey what this law demands.
If the person has the faith to obey the law why would he need the Holy Ghost?
I think in John 6 Christ is telling us that it works in reverse:
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: And they will all be taught by God. Everyone who has listened to and learned from the Father comes to Me- ........ 65 He said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted to him by the Father."
-
Two points the first I'll let Paul make for me.
The second point is from my heart to yours.
You said to BB.
Your first sentence in this paragraph contradicts last. I also read in this paragraph that you do not believe that the gospel must be preached and understood by the person before they receive salvation. The Gospel, the good news, was not understood by the Cherokee Indians because they had no knowledge or way to gain the knowledge that the Creator did in fact come to this earth and sacrifice himself for their salvation. (John 1:1-14)
The Cherokees, Arapaho, the Apaches, the Nezperce may have believed in the great spirit creator, but they never believed that He came to this earth and sacrificed himself to conquer death on our behalf. The good news is not that there is a creator but there is a Creator that love them enough to sacrifice Himself.
No sin no matter what it is, is going to be forgiven unless the person who committed the sin repents and ask for forgiveness. When you find an ancient Cherokee that never send your find a Cherokee that went to heaven.
You are Arminianism in theology which commonly leads to straying from the Bible and the sovereignty of God. (Just a note here, it is kind of strange that you listen to Calvinist sermons.)
Another problem I see in your post is that you do not understand what you have to have faith in to be saved.
The good news is about the conquering of death by Christ, not that there is a Creator.
Now you have me repeating and repeating the same verse over and over again, like you were "deef" of something. So after this post we will just half to agree to disagree:
Romans 1:20 (NKJV)
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
IF natives from a remote tribe that does not have the Bible in their language, nor a missionary in their presence to preach to them; THEN THEY WOULD HAVE AN EXCUSE IF YOUR OPINION WAS CORRECT. That is my whole point. EVEN THOSE HAVE NO EXCUSE, because HE SAID HE CAN BE KNOWN THROUGH THE THINGS HE CREATED.
As for how many sins are unforgiven by the blood of the cross, HE SAID ONE. Adolf Hitler will not end up in hell for his war crimes, he will end up in the Lake of Fire for the same sin everyone else is sent there for. THAT IS REJECTING JESUS CHRIST THE CREATOR AS LORD, which is blaspheming the work of the Holy Spirit, WHO is trying to get each individual to believe.
Luke 23:34 (NKJV)
34 Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do." And they divided His garments and cast lots.
2 Corinthians 5:19 (NKJV)
19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
1 John 2:2 (GW)
2 He is the payment for our sins, and not only for our sins, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Matthew 12:31-32 (NKJV)
31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
That in not something that I made up in my head, THAT IS WHAT OUR LORD SAID. All sins except ONE, HE forgave on the cross and PAID FOR THEM ALL with HIS blood, except the one, which is as I said, REJECTING JESUS CHRIST THE CREATOR AS LORD.
As for your misunderstanding of 1 John 1:9:
1 John 1:9 (NKJV)
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
That is not describing what we must DO to earn forgiveness for our sins, that would be works righteousness, and there is NO SUCH THING.
That verse is describing one of the MAIN natural characteristics of a genuine born again Christian. We WILL BY OUR NEW SPIRITUAL NATURE, be those who willingly and eagerly confess our sins to HIM, as we discover them in our lives.
AND THEN you finally anwered the question that I asked you some time ago. What do you think the "good news" or gospel of Jesus Christ is; and you aswer was:
QUOTE: The good news is about the conquering of death by Christ, not that there is a Creator.
While it is true that Christ did conquer death, especially spiritual death; you answer misses the full definition of "the good news" by a country mile.
The good news is we desperately NEED as Saviour, because we cannot save ourselves from the JUST penalty of our sins. GOD chose to have PART OF HIMSELF enter a body HE would create in the womb of a virgin, to be born a man, YET be GOD in that flesh; so that HE could live a sinless life, and HE could personally become the Holy Blood sacrifice the HE justly requires for our sins. AND THE BEST PART OF THE GOOD NEW IS:
John 1:12-13 (NKJV)
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Received HIM as what though? Praise the LORD, He aswers that in Scripture too:
Colossians 2:6 (NIV)
6 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him,
Perhaps the reason you are having such a hard time grasping these simple truths, is you fail to see just how ENORMOUS His Grace is, and the VASTNESS of HIS Mercy:
GRACE = Receiving what we do not deserve, nor have not earned.
MERCY = Not Receiving whe we DO DESERVE.
And even though HE went above and beyond, anything that we could expect, by paying all the sins of the world except one on the Cross. THE VAST MAJORITY, will still reject HIM as LORD, including a great many that call themselves Christians; because they want to remain lord of their own lives.
-
Now you have me repeating and repeating the same verse over and over again, like you were "deef" of something. So after this post we will just half to agree to disagree:
Romans 1:20 (NKJV)
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
IF natives from a remote tribe that does not have the Bible in their language, nor a missionary in their presence to preach to them; THEN THEY WOULD HAVE AN EXCUSE IF YOUR OPINION WAS CORRECT. That is my whole point. EVEN THOSE HAVE NO EXCUSE, because HE SAID HE CAN BE KNOWN THROUGH THE THINGS HE CREATED.
As for how many sins are unforgiven by the blood of the cross, HE SAID ONE. Adolf Hitler will not end up in hell for his war crimes, he will end up in the Lake of Fire for the same sin everyone else is sent there for. THAT IS REJECTING JESUS CHRIST THE CREATOR AS LORD, which is blaspheming the work of the Holy Spirit, WHO is trying to get each individual to believe.
Luke 23:34 (NKJV)
34 Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do." And they divided His garments and cast lots.
2 Corinthians 5:19 (NKJV)
19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
1 John 2:2 (GW)
2 He is the payment for our sins, and not only for our sins, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Matthew 12:31-32 (NKJV)
31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
That in not something that I made up in my head, THAT IS WHAT OUR LORD SAID.
As for your misunderstanding of 1 John 1:9:
1 John 1:9 (NKJV)
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
That is not describing what we must DO to earn forgiveness for our sins, that would be works righteousness, and there is NO SUCH THING.
That verse is describing one of the MAIN natural characteristics of a genuine born again Christian. We WILL BY OUR NEW SPIRITUAL NATURE, be those who willingly and eagerly confess our sins to HIM, as we discover them in our lives.
I'm sorry my friend but you have no message. At least nothing that you have backed up with scripture.
Acts 8:26 An angel of the Lord spoke to Philip: "Get up and go south to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to desert Gaza." 27 So he got up and went. There was an Ethiopian man, a eunuch and high official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of her entire treasury. He had come to worship in Jerusalem 28 and was sitting in his chariot on his way home, reading the prophet Isaiah aloud. 29 The Spirit told Philip, "Go and join that chariot." 30 When Philip ran up to it, he heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, "Do you understand what you're reading?" 31 "How can I," he said, "unless someone guides me?" So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 Now the Scripture passage he was reading was this: He was led like a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb is silent before its shearer, so He does not open His mouth. 33 In His humiliation justice was denied Him. Who will describe His generation? For His life is taken from the earth. 34 The eunuch replied to Philip, "I ask you, who is the prophet saying this about-himself or another person?" 35 So Philip proceeded to tell him the good news about Jesus, beginning from that Scripture. 36 As they were traveling down the road, they came to some water. The eunuch said, "Look, there's water! What would keep me from being baptized?" [ 37 And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart you may." And he replied, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."]
The good news is not that there is a creator, and until you understand that have a major problem.
The Word became Flesh. It took the Cherokees 1600 years after the after the Crucifixion to learn this.
I'll stick with the Bible and you can make up any story that makes you feel good. Yes we agree to disagree.
-
I'm sorry my friend but you have no message. At least nothing that you have backed up with scripture.
. . . The Word became Flesh. It took the Cherokees 1600 years after the after the Crucifixion to learn this.
I'll stick with the Bible and you can make up any story that makes you feel good. Yes we agree to disagree.
Better re-read my last post, I was adding more when you responded, and I certainly backed everything I said up with Scripture. I am sorry you cannot see it. I enjoyed the discussion though.
Cya
Titus 2:13 (ISV)
13 as we wait for the blessed hope and the glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
-
If the person has the faith to obey the law why would he need the Holy Ghost?
I think in John 6 Christ is telling us that it works in reverse:
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: And they will all be taught by God. Everyone who has listened to and learned from the Father comes to Me- ........ 65 He said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted to him by the Father."
The law referenced in Rom. 2:13 is one that has been added after Jesus was crucified.
-
Fat,
One finally thought to share with you. You have quoted this verse several times concerning Faith:
Romans 10:14 (NKJV)
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
And I have quoted this verse several times:
Romans 1:20 (NKJV)
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
Romans 1:20 is describing one of GOD's preachers, and it is created nature itself; and it is preaching about the invisibe attributes of GOD, and His power (which includes His power to save), and even the Doctrine of the Godhead.
Now, since I am pretty sure that you believe "All Scripture is inspired by GOD."; it is GOD who put those words in Romans 1:20 in Pauls head.
-
Better re-read my last post, I was adding more when you responded, and I certainly backed everything I said up with Scripture. I am sorry you cannot see it. I enjoyed the discussion though.
Cya
Titus 2:13 (ISV)
13 as we wait for the blessed hope and the glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
You keep forgetting a word in your salvation scenario, repent.
Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins ; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
"Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord ;
"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
Note that the word sins is plural not singular.
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
May the great corn mother watch your Cherokee brothers.
-
Fat,
One finally thought to share with you. You have quoted this verse several times concerning Faith:
Romans 10:14 (NKJV)
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
And I have quoted this verse several times:
Romans 1:20 (NKJV)
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
Romans 1:20 is describing one of GOD's preachers, and it is created nature itself; and it is preaching about the invisibe attributes of GOD, and His power (which includes His power to save), and even the Doctrine of the Godhead.
Now, since I am pretty sure that you believe "All Scripture is inspired by GOD."; it is GOD who put those words in Romans 1:20 in Pauls head.
You should try to read the scriptures in context.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
-
You keep forgetting a word in your salvation scenario, repent.
Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins ; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
"Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord ;
"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
Note that the word sins is plural not singular.
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
May the great corn mother watch your Cherokee brothers.
And you keep forgetting:
Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Is not repentance a Good Work? Then Repentance is a BI-PRODUCT characteristic of that Genuine Salvation that is BY GRACE ALONE, and not something we can do to save ourselves, or to appease GOD for our sins. Was Repentence required in the LAW? YES it was:
Ezekiel 18:30 (ESV)
30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord God. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin.
Galatians 5:4 (HCSB)
4 You who are trying to be justified by the law are alienated from Christ; you have fallen from grace.
Galatians 2:16 (NKJV)
16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
And as I stated before, having faith in the Creator is having faith in Jesus Christ, because HE IS THE CREATOR. Of that we HAVE NO DOUBT, because He said so in Col. 1:16; PLUS He proved He was the Creator in front of more than thousand times the witnesses required by Roman Law, when HE fed the 5000, and the 4000, as HE created more fish and loaves repeatedly until everyone had their fill.
Yes, I do believe we have a Stalemate.
-
And you keep forgetting:
Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Is not repentance a Good Work? Then Repentance is a BI-PRODUCT characteristic of that Genuine Salvation that is BY GRACE ALONE, and not something we can do to save ourselves, or to appease GOD for our sins. Was Repentance required in the LAW? YES it was:
Ezekiel 18:30 (ESV)
30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord God. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin.
Galatians 5:4 (HCSB)
4 You who are trying to be justified by the law are alienated from Christ; you have fallen from grace.
Galatians 2:16 (NKJV)
16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
And as I stated before, having faith in the Creator is having faith in Jesus Christ, because HE IS THE CREATOR. Of that we HAVE NO DOUBT, because He said so in Col. 1:16; PLUS He proved He was the Creator in front of more than thousand times the witnesses required by Roman Law, when HE fed the 5000, and the 4000, as HE created more fish and loaves repeatedly until everyone had their fill.
Yes, I do believe we have a Stalemate.
I am going to lock this thread because the casual reader may get the wrong message from our friend VCO. But first my 2 cents.
Repentance is not a work anymore than praying is a work. Our God is a just God and the Holy Spirit can not enter into an unrepentant body. Christ said a man must be born again of the Spirit.
Forgiveness cannot be effected, nor righteousness declared, until guilt has been established, this we call conviction of sin. If a man is not guilty, no act or declaration of justification is needed. The man who contends that he does not need to be justified by God must first establish the evidence that there is no accusation against him. But he who believes the Scriptures, and examines his own heart honestly, must admit that he is an accused and guilty sinner before God. We know that there is something wrong with the human race. “All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23).