Bible discussion
Bible Talk => Eschatology => Topic started by: Defacto on December 27, 2016, 07:27:40 am
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The tribulation temple:
Matthew 24:15 - When you see the “abomination of desolation,” spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place…
2 Thessalonians 2:4 - "...so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God"
Revelation 11:1 - "...Go and measure the temple of God and the alter..."
The Millennial temple:
Ezekiel 43:7 - "...this is the place of my throne...This is where I will live among the Israelites forever."
Ezekiel 43:27 - …your priests will your burnt offerings and peace offerings on the altar, and I will accept you, declares the Lord.
Zechariah 6:12 - Here is the Man whose name is the Branch, and he will…build the temple of the Lord.
At the present time there is no temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem,
the location of both the first and second Jewish Temples. Instead, two
Muslim shrines, The Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque, stand on
the Temple Mount. Meantime, the Jewish people to consider the Temple
Mount to be the most sacred place for Jews in all the world. No wonder
the Temple Mount is a political powder keg and must be part of any
formula for peace in the Middle East!
http://www.templemount.org/TM34.html
Defacto
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If there's going to be a tribulation temple wont the Jews first have to have control of Jerusalem?
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If there's going to be a tribulation temple wont the Jews first have to have control of Jerusalem?
Indeed, the capitol of Israel, is Jerusalem, since shortly after 1967. However, the temple mount is under Muslim control at the resent time, and will remain as such until the covenant of Dan.9:27 has been ratified.
Defacto
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Indeed, the capitol of Israel, is Jerusalem, since shortly after 1967. However, the temple mount is under Muslim control at the resent time, and will remain as such until the covenant of Dan.9:27 has been ratified.
Defacto
Hi Defacto
I believe that Bob and I are coming from the same place, there cannot be a rapture until the Temple is rebuilt. You do not show this on your timeline on the other thread, and that was my main point.
BB
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Hi Defacto
I believe that Bob and I are coming from the same place, there cannot be a rapture until the Temple is rebuilt. You do not show this on your timeline on the other thread, and that was my main point.
BB
Good morning, biblebuf
Provide the Scriptures that support your opinions, that verify them. When you do, I will provide you the Scriptures that refute your interpretation of them. [Which has already been posted at this site.]
Defacto
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I'll repost it for you: notice that on day one of the tribulation that the Jews are already worshiping in it.
Hello Defacto
FYI I use the NAS or HCS as a study bible.
Your post does not really address when the new Temple will be built. We know for a fact that it has to be built before the rapture, and this is indisputable.
Revelation 11:1 Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, "Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. 2 "Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months. 3 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
Just taking a wild guess that the outside court will be given to the Muslims for place of worship. Could this be part of the two state solution that the United Nations is so intent to impose on Israel? But there is no doubt that before the 1260 days start the Temple has already been rebuilt.
Shalom
BB
P. S. Please do not turn this into a discussion about replacement theology, that is replacing the Temple with the Church.
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I'll repost it for you: notice that on day one of the tribulation that the Jews are already worshiping in it.
Hello Defacto
FYI I use the NAS or HCS as a study bible.
Your post does not really address when the new Temple will be built. We know for a fact that it has to be built before the rapture, and this is indisputable.
Revelation 11:1 Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, "Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. 2 "Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months. 3 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
Just taking a wild guess that the outside court will be given to the Muslims for place of worship. Could this be part of the two state solution that the United Nations is so intent to impose on Israel? But there is no doubt that before the 1260 days start the Temple has already been rebuilt.
Shalom
BB
P. S. Please do not turn this into a discussion about replacement theology, that is replacing the Temple with the Church.
Greetings biblebuf,
I have answered your above post once before. There is no way the tribulation temple will be built before the "he" ;Antichrist] of Dan.9:27 confirms the seven year covenant,with many, The following documentation will reveal to you from the Scriptures, the rapture of the Church will take place BEFORE the man of lawlessness, i.e. the Antichrist, is revealed. Carefully review 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8 that confirm it.
2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].
The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.
In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.
Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].
Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.
"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Verse 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.
The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In verse 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."
The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in verse 3. Immediately following that:
In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21]
Blessings
Defacto.
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Hello Defacto
Revelation 11 starts with the last seven years of Daniel's prophecy, the last week. Note that the Temple is already in existence, as is the altar and it is occupied by worshipers.
Revelation 11:1 Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, "Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. 2 "Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months. 3 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
You have posted a lot of opinions and personal translation of Scripture, but the Scripture you quote does not back up anything that refutes Revelation 11. Let’s take a look at the verses you put up as evidence that Revelation 11. Here are the verses that I pulled from your post if I missed any please correct me.
Dan.9:27
In context please take the time to follow the chronological events in Daniel 9:
24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. 25 "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."
There is a big gap between the 69th week and the last week, but clearly the temple is there and being used. The covenant is for peace not a new temple.
2 Thes.2:1-8 (nothing to do with the building of the temple, the temple has already been built)
1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
1 Thes.4:17 ( not relevant )
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
Mt.24:15
In context:( not relevant )
15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand ), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him. 24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25 "Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 "So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them. 27 "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 "Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
Eph.1:13-14 ( not relevant )
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
Rev.19:17-21 ( not relevant )
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, "Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great." 19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.
Shalom
BB
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Hi biblebuf,
Your expressed opinions have been noted and a cursory evaluation of it is in the major part od its failure to meet with the intended Scriptual interpretation. For one thing, no temple will be built until AFTER the "he"/Anticrist has been revealed and confirms the seven year covenant, as recorded in Dam.9:27. If Israel attempted to build their third temple before then, it would start WWIII. In the second place, the reference to the temple court in Rev.11:1-2, is the FIRST half of the seven year tribulation, not the last In the third place, there is no temple [stone building] in Israel since the detruction of their second temple [modified and enlarged by Herod the Great], since it was destroyed by the army, under general tTitus, in 70 A.D. Review the following for the proper interpretation of and how the next two temples will be built in Jerusalem.
1.http://www.templemount.org/TM34.html
ISRAEL'S FUTURE THIRD AND FOURTH TEMPLES - Temple Mount
www.templemount.org
ISRAEL'S FUTURE THIRD AND FOURTH TEMPLES. by Lambert Dolphin. The Old Testament devotes considerable attention to describing the portable tent, or tabernacle, of the ...
2. http://www.unsealed.org/2016/06/jerusalems-temples-key-to-understanding.html
Jerusalem's Temples - A Key to Understanding Bible ...
www.unsealed.org
The implications of Robert Cornuke's recent discoveries are mind boggling and a perfect revelation for our time. The Holy Spirit within me quickened to this video and
[Edit by Defacto: I do not accept Robert Comuke's view of the Millennial temple coming down from heaven. But rather, that Jesus will be its literal builder, as recorded in Zech.6:12-13 ad described in Ez.40-47.]
Defacto
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Hello Defacto
You can accept other peoples opinions if you like, but for me I'll stick with the Bible. Daniel 9 does not support those opinions and they do not address Revelation 11, which is clear scripture.
IHS
BB
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Hello Defacto
You can accept other peoples opinions if you like, but for me I'll stick with the Bible. Daniel 9 does not support those opinions and they do not address Revelation 11, which is clear scripture.
IHS
BB
Hello biblebuf,
There is nothing in the the articles documented in the links I gave you to assume it is not all from the Bible. Your cast in iron belief system will not hold up to sound eschatology as seen from trained expositors with earned qualifications to teach the Bible, from which mine come from two Bible Colleges. And where may I ask do your qualifications come from to teach the Bible?
FYI, Dan.9 and Rev.11 fully support what I have posted, whether you accept it or not.
As a side from the thread subject, I a a WWII vet in my 94th year and have spent 17 years participating on Christian discussion forums, with more than 50,000 posts, in addition to founding a website of my own.
Please feel free to field any other questions or beliefs you may hve and I'll be more than happy to share the intended Biblical meaning and interpretation for you, if I am able to do so.
Defacto
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Hello Defacto
As a side from the thread subject, I a a WWII vet in my 94th year and have spent 17 years participating on Christian discussion forums, with more than 50,000 posts, in addition to founding a website of my own.
And I am a 71 year old vet from the 1/505 ABN 1965-1968. Built my first bible forum on the internet in 1998, one of my domains (inhisword.net points to this site). SO WHAT? If you post a non-truth 50,000 times does it become true?
My daddy can beat up your daddy so there!
I take it you have run out of argument for your position.
Take a real good look at Daniel 9 and Revelation 11, it is not a salvation question so I don't really care about who is right on this matter but I do think reading into the scripture things that are not there is a mistake.
Hope to meet you in the new Jerusalem.
BB
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Hello Defacto
And I am a 71 year old vet from the 1/505 ABN 1965-1968. Built my first bible forum on the internet in 1998, one of my domains (inhisword.net points to this site). SO WHAT? If you post a non-truth 50,000 times does it become true?
My daddy can beat up your daddy so there!
I take it you have run out of argument for your position.
Take a real good look at Daniel 9 and Revelation 11, it is not a salvation question so I don't really care about who is right on this matter but I do think reading into the scripture things that are not there is a mistake.
Hope to meet you in the new Jerusalem.
BB
Hi biblebuf,
As a WWII vet, I spent two years of it serving in the USAAF Air Corp at numerous rocks in the Pacific, fighting a war to preserve the lifestyle you have been able to enjoy so far, during your lifetime.
After earning my qualifications to teach the Bible at Prairie Bible Institute, at Three Hills, Alberta Canada and Liberty University, at Lynchburg, VA., with Dr. Harold Wilmington, I did some additional studying under the late Dr. John Walvoord and Dr. Dwight Pentecost, of Dallas Theological Seminary. And where, may I ask have you obtained your qualifications to teach the Bible?
FYI, what I have posted here on this thread and at this site, are fully endorsed by the following highly esteemed men of God, who are theologians of every Christian teaching.
Your remark about the 50,000 posts I have made throughout a number of Christian discussion forums to be "non-truth," is meaningless, unsupportable opinion you will never be able to prove from what I have observed of your belief system, as well as it being an insult! And I am not out of response to anything you have to offer in connection with the subject of this post, or in any other.
The subject of this thread is fully supported by Scripture, together with that of many other expositors. My studies of Daniel and of Revelation began in August of 1937, at a Lake Sammamish, WN. Bible Conference while I was in High School.
As I told you before, the third and next temple to be built by Israel in Jerusalem, WILL NOT be built until AFTER the man of lawlessness, the "he" who confirms a covenant with many, in Dan.9:27 triggers the seven year tribulation. The same person as the the rider on the white hose, in Rev.6:2. Which will occur AFTER the rapture of the Church, as recordd in Jn.14:2-3, 28; 1 Thess,4:16-17 and in 2 Thess.2:3 and in 7-8.
The context in Rev.11:1-2, pertaining to the gentiles trampling down the courtyard of the temple, is the one that WILL VE built AFTER the "he" of Dan.9:27 confirms the covenant with many, that will trigger the seven year tribulation. This even time line will occur in the FIRST 3.5 yers of the 7 yer trib. The "he"/Antichrist, will continue to excercize his authority for 42 nonths, the final 3.5 years of the 7 year trib., as recorded in Rev.13:5
What I have posted on this thread is fully endorsed by the following , as previously stated above:
1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D.
Chuck Missler, Koinonia House, Charles Stanley, Baptist minister, Zola Levitt, Levitt's Ministries, Miles Weiss, Zola Levitt's Ministries, Moishe Rosen, Jew's For Jesus Org., David Bickner, Jew's For Jesus Org., Mitch Glaser, His Chosen People Minisries Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary, Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty Seminary, Arno Froese, Editor and CEO of Midnight Call Ministries, Thomas Ice, PhD., Author, Jack Van Impe, TV Ministry, Tim Le Haye, Author, Jerry Fallwell, Baptist minister, Billie Graham, TV ministry, Franklin Graham, TV ministry, Dr. Ron Carlson, Dr. Wilfred Hahn, Dave Hunt, Ed Decker and Dr. Norbert Lieth.
Defacto
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Hi biblebuf,
As a WWII vet, I spent two years of it serving in the USAAF Air Corp at numerous rocks in the Pacific, fighting a war to preserve the lifestyle you have been able to enjoy so far, during your lifetime.
After earning my qualifications to teach the Bible at Prairie Bible Institute, at Three Hills, Alberta Canada and Liberty University, at Lynchburg, VA., with Dr. Harold Wilmington, I did some additional studying under the late Dr. John Walvoord and Dr. Dwight Pentecost, of Dallas Theological Seminary. And where, may I ask have you obtained your qualifications to teach the Bible?
FYI, what I have posted here on this thread and at this site, are fully endorsed by the following highly esteemed men of God, who are theologians of every Christian teaching.
Your remark about the 50,000 posts I have made throughout a number of Christian discussion forums to be "non-truth," is meaningless, unsupportable opinion you will never be able to prove from what I have observed of your belief system, as well as it being an insult! And I am not out of response to anything you have to offer in connection with the subject of this post, or in any other.
The subject of this thread is fully supported by Scripture, together with that of many other expositors. My studies of Daniel and of Revelation began in August of 1937, at a Lake Sammamish, WN. Bible Conference while I was in High School.
As I told you before, the third and next temple to be built by Israel in Jerusalem, WILL NOT be built until AFTER the man of lawlessness, the "he" who confirms a covenant with many, in Dan.9:27 triggers the seven year tribulation. The same person as the the rider on the white hose, in Rev.6:2. Which will occur AFTER the rapture of the Church, as recordd in Jn.14:2-3, 28; 1 Thess,4:16-17 and in 2 Thess.2:3 and in 7-8.
The context in Rev.11:1-2, pertaining to the gentiles trampling down the courtyard of the temple, is the one that WILL VE built AFTER the "he" of Dan.9:27 confirms the covenant with many, that will trigger the seven year tribulation. This even time line will occur in the FIRST 3.5 yers of the 7 yer trib. The "he"/Antichrist, will continue to excercize his authority for 42 nonths, the final 3.5 years of the 7 year trib., as recorded in Rev.13:5
What I have posted on this thread is fully endorsed by the following , as previously stated above:
1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D.
Chuck Missler, Koinonia House, Charles Stanley, Baptist minister, Zola Levitt, Levitt's Ministries, Miles Weiss, Zola Levitt's Ministries, Moishe Rosen, Jew's For Jesus Org., David Bickner, Jew's For Jesus Org., Mitch Glaser, His Chosen People Minisries Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary, Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty Seminary, Arno Froese, Editor and CEO of Midnight Call Ministries, Thomas Ice, PhD., Author, Jack Van Impe, TV Ministry, Tim Le Haye, Author, Jerry Fallwell, Baptist minister, Billie Graham, TV ministry, Franklin Graham, TV ministry, Dr. Ron Carlson, Dr. Wilfred Hahn, Dave Hunt, Ed Decker and Dr. Norbert Lieth.
Defacto
Hi Defacto
Oh do I detect a little pride in this post, isn’t that wonderful.
You are adding to the written word just like Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, and the Pope do. You are putting words in the scripture that are not there and you use for your authority MAN.
The context in Rev.11:1-2, pertaining to the gentiles trampling down the courtyard of the temple, is the one that WILL VE built AFTER the "he" of Dan.9:27 confirms the covenant with many, that will trigger the seven year tribulation.
The Scripture is clear and there is nothing in them that supports your claim:
daniel 9 NAS
24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. 25 "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two * weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 "Then after the sixty-two * weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."
Rev.11 NAS
1 Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, "Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. 2 "Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two * months. 3 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve * hundred * and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
P.S. there was no USAAF in WW2, there was an Army Air Corps until 1947, and the matter of your 50,000 post is irrelevant to any discussion about any thing except that you made 50,000 post.
IHS
BB
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Happy new year everyone !
sola scriptura
“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,”
II Timothy 3:16 NKJV
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Hi Defacto
Oh do I detect a little pride in this post, isn’t that wonderful.
You are adding to the written word just like Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, and the Pope do. You are putting words in the scripture that are not there and you use for your authority MAN.
The Scripture is clear and there is nothing in them that supports your claim:
daniel 9 NAS
24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. 25 "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two * weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 "Then after the sixty-two * weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."
Rev.11 NAS
1 Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, "Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. 2 "Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two * months. 3 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve * hundred * and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
P.S. there was no USAAF in WW2, there was an Army Air Corps until 1947, and the matter of your 50,000 post is irrelevant to any discussion about any thing except that you made 50,000 post.
IHS
BB
The Scriptures you have quoted are 100% accurate. However your interpretation of them comes straight from the seat of your pants guesswork from an amateur who implies he knows more about Biblical eschatology than the following experts who all refute you:
1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D.
Chuck Missler, Koinonia House, Charles Stanley, Baptist minister, Zola Levitt, Levitt's Ministries, Miles Weiss, Zola Levitt's Ministries, Moishe Rosen, Jew's For Jesus Org., David Bickner, Jew's For Jesus Org., Mitch Glaser, His Chosen People Minisries Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary, Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty Seminary, Arno Froese, Editor and CEO of Midnight Call Ministries, Thomas Ice, PhD., Author, Jack Van Impe, TV Ministry, Tim Le Haye, Author, Jerry Fallwell, Baptist minister, Billie Graham, TV ministry, Franklin Graham, TV ministry, Dr. Ron Carlson, Dr. Wilfred Hahn, Dave Hunt, Ed Decker and Dr. Norbert Lieth.
All of whom fully endorse the prophetic fact that the third temple to be built in Jerusalem, cannot be done until AFTER the Antichrist [the three "he's" in Dan.08:27; the man of lawlessness of 2 Thess.2:3-4 and 8; the beast out of the sea, in Rev.13:1-2] is revealed! Reference to the temple court yard in Rev.11:1-2 is an event that will take place during the FIRST 3.5 years of the 7 year tribulation!. The beast out of the se/Antichrist has the authrity to continue for 42 months, in Rev.13:5!
The Millennial temple will be built by Jesus, as posted in the OP and recorded in Zech.6:12-13, that is described in Ez.40-47! All of which is fully supported from the Scriptures, whether you accept it or not!
FYI, I have an Honorable Discharge from the United States Army Air Force, from active service dated December 7, 1945, where I served in the Air Transport Command. On call in the Reserve until 1953. The United States Air Force was established in 1948. Don't call me a liar again, junior!
Defacto
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Happy new year everyone !
sola scriptura
“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,”
II Timothy 3:16 NKJV
Hi Bob,
Happy New Year to you, and thank you.
Defacto
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Hello again Defacto
As a WWII vet, I spent two years of it serving in the USAAF Air Corp at numerous rocks in the Pacific, fighting a war to preserve the lifestyle you have been able to enjoy so far, during your lifetime.
P.S. there was no USAAF in WW2, there was an Army Air Corps until 1947.
FYI, I have an Honorable Discharge from the United States Army Air Force, from active service dated December 7, 1945, where I served in the Air Transport Command. On call in the Reserve until 1953. The United States Air Force was established in 1948. Don't call me a liar again, junior!
Are you now saying that you meant to say United States Army Air Corp when you said "USAAF Air Corp"? That is the point I tried to make to you, but you are stuck with the inability to take any corrective criticism, you seem to take it as an assault on your service. You know when I tell people that the Army (with the help of the Air Force) dropped out of a C-130 over Turkey in 1965 I do not feel that my service is being called into question when they say "but Turkey is part of NATO", they are looking for an explanation not making an accusation.
P.S. there was no USAAF in WW2, there was an Army Air Corps until 1947.
You added to my post just as you add to the to the scripture to come up with your interpretation of Dan 9. But good name calling Defacto.
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Rules of the Board.
http://biblediscussion.org/index.php/topic,604.0.html
Admin Dude
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Hello Defacto happy new year to you and all the board!
I can give you a thousand theologians That don't believe in Jesus, a thousand theologians that do believe in Jesus but not that He was the Christ, a thousand theologians that believe that Christ was the Archangel Michael , a thousand theologians that don't believe that the Son and Father are not ONE.
So what does it mean? Did you know that Gill, the only man I know that has written a commintery on every verse in the Bible, disagrees with you?
Have a great 2017!
Mac
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Revelation 11:1
John Gill and John Darby commentaries use replacement theology to explain the Temple actually being the Church.
Many commentaries claim the reference to the Temple is the spiritual church of God's elect. Another form of replacement theology. Of course this cannot be correct because at this time the rapture would have already occurred, and the church would not be present on earth.
John MacArthur gets it right.
11: 1 a measuring rod. This was a hollow, bamboo-like cane plant that grew in the Jordan Valley. Because of its light weight and rigidity, it was commonly used as a measuring rod (cf. Eze 40: 3, 5). Measuring the temple signified God’s ownership of it (cf. 21: 15; Zec 2: 1– 5). the temple of God. Refers to the Holy of Holies and the Holy Place, not the entire temple complex (cf. v. 2). A rebuilt temple will exist during the time of the Tribulation (Da 9: 27; 12: 11; Mt 24: 15; 2Th 2: 4). altar. The reference to worshipers suggests this is the bronze altar in the courtyard, not the incense altar in the Holy Place, since only the priests were permitted inside the Holy Place (cf. Lk 1: 8– 10). † 11: 2 court which is outside. The court of the Gentiles, separated from the inner court in the Herodian temple by a low wall. Gentiles were forbidden to enter the inner court on penalty of death. That John is instructed not to measure the outer court symbolizes God’s rejection of the unbelieving Gentiles who have oppressed His covenant people. tread under foot the holy city. Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome all oppressed Jerusalem in ancient times (cf. 2Ki 25: 8– 10; Ps 79: 1; Is 63: 18; La 1: 10).
This verse refers to the future devastating destruction and oppression of Jerusalem by the forces of the Antichrist. forty-two months. This 3 1/ 2 year period covers the second half of the Tribulation and coincides with the visibly evil career of the Antichrist (v. 3; 12: 6; 13: 5). During this same time, the Jews will be sheltered by God in the wilderness (12: 6, 14). † 11: 3 two witnesses. Individuals granted special power and authority by God to preach a message of judgment and salvation during the second half of the Tribulation. The OT required two or more witnesses to confirm testimony (cf. Dt 17: 6; 19: 15; Mt 18: 16; Jn 8: 17; Heb 10: 28), and these two prophets will be the culmination of God’s testimony to Israel: a message of judgment from God and of His gracious offer of the gospel to all who will repent and believe. twelve hundred and sixty days. Forty-two months or 3 1/ 2 years (cf. 12: 6; 13: 5; see note on v. 2). sackcloth. Coarse, rough cloth made from goat or camel hair. Wearing garments made from it expressed penitence, humility, and mourning (cf. Ge 37: 34; 2Sa 3: 31; 2Ki 6: 30; 19: 1; Est 4: 1; Is 22: 12; Jer 6: 26; Mt 11: 21). The witnesses are mourning because of the wretched wickedness of the world, God’s judgment on it, and the desecration of the temple and the holy city by the Antichrist.
MacArthur, John (2006-04-11). The MacArthur Study Bible, NASB
When the Temple will be rebuilt is anybody's guess, but nobody that I have read believes it has anything to do with the antichrist covenant. I have read that the Jews have already fabricated the new Temple so that it can be put up very quickly. I don't know if this is true or not but if it is I would believe it would still take some time to construct considering the preparation that will be required before sitting the foundation.
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Hello again Defacto
Are you now saying that you meant to say United States Army Air Corp when you said "USAAF Air Corp"? That is the point I tried to make to you, but you are stuck with the inability to take any corrective criticism, you seem to take it as an assault on your service. You know when I tell people that the Army (with the help of the Air Force) dropped out of a C-130 over Turkey in 1965 I do not feel that my service is being called into question when they say "but Turkey is part of NATO", they are looking for an explanation not making an accusation.
You added to my post just as you add to the to the scripture to come up with your interpretation of Dan 9. But good name calling Defacto.
Biblebuf,
The U.S. designation for the Army Air Corp, was the United States Army Air Force. USAAF for short. Stop arguing with a veteran who served for them and do a little research on your own.
Defacto
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Hello Defacto happy new year to you and all the board!
I can give you a thousand theologians That don't believe in Jesus, a thousand theologians that do believe in Jesus but not that He was the Christ, a thousand theologians that believe that Christ was the Archangel Michael , a thousand theologians that don't believe that the Son and Father are not ONE.
So what does it mean? Did you know that Gill, the only man I know that has written a commintery on every verse in the Bible, disagrees with you?
Have a great 2017!
Mac
Hi macuser,
Happy new year to you. Yes, that is whar happened to Jesus. There were many who didn't elieve him either.
Defacto
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Revelation 11:1
John Gill and John Darby commentaries use replacement theology to explain the Temple actually being the Church.
Many commentaries claim the reference to the Temple is the spiritual church of God's elect. Another form of replacement theology. Of course this cannot be correct because at this time the rapture would have already occurred, and the church would not be present on earth.
John MacArthur gets it right.
11: 1 a measuring rod. This was a hollow, bamboo-like cane plant that grew in the Jordan Valley. Because of its light weight and rigidity, it was commonly used as a measuring rod (cf. Eze 40: 3, 5). Measuring the temple signified God’s ownership of it (cf. 21: 15; Zec 2: 1– 5). the temple of God. Refers to the Holy of Holies and the Holy Place, not the entire temple complex (cf. v. 2). A rebuilt temple will exist during the time of the Tribulation (Da 9: 27; 12: 11; Mt 24: 15; 2Th 2: 4). altar. The reference to worshipers suggests this is the bronze altar in the courtyard, not the incense altar in the Holy Place, since only the priests were permitted inside the Holy Place (cf. Lk 1: 8– 10). † 11: 2 court which is outside. The court of the Gentiles, separated from the inner court in the Herodian temple by a low wall. Gentiles were forbidden to enter the inner court on penalty of death. That John is instructed not to measure the outer court symbolizes God’s rejection of the unbelieving Gentiles who have oppressed His covenant people. tread under foot the holy city. Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome all oppressed Jerusalem in ancient times (cf. 2Ki 25: 8– 10; Ps 79: 1; Is 63: 18; La 1: 10).
This verse refers to the future devastating destruction and oppression of Jerusalem by the forces of the Antichrist. forty-two months. This 3 1/ 2 year period covers the second half of the Tribulation and coincides with the visibly evil career of the Antichrist (v. 3; 12: 6; 13: 5). During this same time, the Jews will be sheltered by God in the wilderness (12: 6, 14). † 11: 3 two witnesses. Individuals granted special power and authority by God to preach a message of judgment and salvation during the second half of the Tribulation. The OT required two or more witnesses to confirm testimony (cf. Dt 17: 6; 19: 15; Mt 18: 16; Jn 8: 17; Heb 10: 28), and these two prophets will be the culmination of God’s testimony to Israel: a message of judgment from God and of His gracious offer of the gospel to all who will repent and believe. twelve hundred and sixty days. Forty-two months or 3 1/ 2 years (cf. 12: 6; 13: 5; see note on v. 2). sackcloth. Coarse, rough cloth made from goat or camel hair. Wearing garments made from it expressed penitence, humility, and mourning (cf. Ge 37: 34; 2Sa 3: 31; 2Ki 6: 30; 19: 1; Est 4: 1; Is 22: 12; Jer 6: 26; Mt 11: 21). The witnesses are mourning because of the wretched wickedness of the world, God’s judgment on it, and the desecration of the temple and the holy city by the Antichrist.
MacArthur, John (2006-04-11). The MacArthur Study Bible, NASB
When the Temple will be rebuilt is anybody's guess, but nobody that I have read believes it has anything to do with the antichrist covenant. I have read that the Jews have already fabricated the new Temple so that it can be put up very quickly. I don't know if this is true or not but if it is I would believe it would still take some time to construct considering the preparation that will be required before sitting the foundation.
Very wel documented, fat. If you have read pevious posts on this thread, you've probably seen where I disagree with you in the time frame of the two witnesses, being in the first 3.5 years of the 7 year tribulation, rather than the second 3.5 years of it. The reason being, that in Rev.13:5, the Antichrist [beast out of the sea] will continue for 42 months, which follows the text in Rev.11:1-3.
Another point I would like to bring up, is the fact that the "he" of Dan.9:27, the Antichrist, confirms a seven year, firm agreement, i.e. covenant. It is not one that he necessarily makes himself.
Happy new year to you.
Defacto
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Very wel documented, fat. If you have read pevious posts on this thread, you've probably seen where I disagree with you in the time frame of the two witnesses, being in the first 3.5 years of the 7 year tribulation, rather than the second 3.5 years of it. The reason being, that in Rev.13:5, the Antichrist [beast out of the sea] will continue for 42 months, which follows the text in Rev.11:1-3.
Another point I would like to bring up, is the fact that the "he" of Dan.9:27, the Antichrist, confirms a seven year, firm agreement, i.e. covenant. It is not one that he necessarily makes himself.
Happy new year to you.
Defacto
We don't really disagree on the two wetnesses, I believe that they will be at the first half of the 7 years. When I was saying that "John MacArthur gets it right", I was referring to the Temple, a physical Temple, we know it will be present during the tribulation. It is because of the authority of two wetnesses that the sacrifice and offering can occur in the Temple. The question that we have no answer for, is the Temple built before the rapture or overnight after the rapture?
About the wetnesses
David Pepe
The key to understanding Daniel 9:27 is found in the 1260 day ministry of the Two Witnesses, which takes place in the first half of the seven year tribulation. Leave them out or diminish them and the whole prophetic text of Daniel 9:27 falls apart.
Two Witnesses who will begin the re-institution of the daily scarifies and oblations...
J. Dwight Pentecost
Dan 9:27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. ”
As J. Dwight Pentecost explains, "This expression refers to the entire Levitical system, which suggests that Israel will have restored that system in the first half of the 70th 'seven.'" Antichrist will replace the legitimate, God-honoring Jewish worship system, which only the two witnesses can inaugurate, with his own system, namely, the abomination of desolation
Something else we should consider on the time line considering the two witnesses, there will be no one to wetness to in the last half.
Matt. 24:15-21
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
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We don't really disagree on the two wetnesses, I believe that they will be at the first half of the 7 years. When I was saying that "John MacArthur gets it right", I was referring to the Temple, a physical Temple, we know it will be present during the tribulation. It is because of the authority of two wetnesses that the sacrifice and offering can occur in the Temple. The question that we have no answer for, is the Temple built before the rapture or overnight after the rapture?
About the wetnesses
David Pepe
J. Dwight Pentecost
Something else we should consider on the time line considering the two witnesses, there will be no one to wetness to in the last half.
Matt. 24:15-21
Hi Fat
The 144,000 Israelite evangelists will be placed on earth by God, in Rev.7, the same way He will do so with the two witnesses, in Rev.11. They will enter the scene at tne end of the sixth seal/the beginning of the seventh sel. The results of their ministry, is the Great Multitude, in Rev.7. The same ones who are recorded as the tribulation martyrs/saints in Rev.20:4. Who will, when resurrected, serve as priests for Jesus and the Father, according to Rev.20:6, in the fourth temple Jesus will build, according to Zech.6:12-13, described in Ez.40-47. During Jesus Millennial reign on earth, on the throne of David, fulfilling Acts 2:29-30 and 15:16, in the restored kingdom of Israel, fulfilling Mt.6:10 and Acts 1:6.
With reference to how many people will be left on earth at the end of the tribulation, there is more than seven billion now, for example, if the trib began now, and end at Jesus second coming, seven years later, with Israel alone, there will only be one third of them left, according to Zech.13:8. If we were to use that formula, the population of those left on earth at the end of the trib, would be something like two and a third billion. So it is safe to conclude, there will definitely be people on earth during the final 3.5 years of the trib.
Defacto
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Hi Fat
The 144,000 Israelite evangelists will be placed on earth by God, in Rev.7, the same way He will do so with the two witnesses, in Rev.11. They will enter the scene at tne end of the sixth seal/the beginning of the seventh sel. The results of their ministry, is the Great Multitude, in Rev.7. The same ones who are recorded as the tribulation martyrs/saints in Rev.20:4. Who will, when resurrected, serve as priests for Jesus and the Father, according to Rev.20:6, in the fourth temple Jesus will build, according to Zech.6:12-13, described in Ez.40-47. During Jesus Millennial reign on earth, on the throne of David, fulfilling Acts 2:29-30 and 15:16, in the restored kingdom of Israel, fulfilling Mt.6:10 and Acts 1:6.
With reference to how many people will be left on earth at the end of the tribulation, there is more than seven billion now, for example, if the trib began now, and end at Jesus second coming, seven years later, with Israel alone, there will only be one third of them left, according to Zech.13:8. If we were to use that formula, the population of those left on earth at the end of the trib, would be something like two and a third billion. So it is safe to conclude, there will definitely be people on earth during the final 3.5 years of the trib.
Defacto
Defacto
We are talking about Jew in the last half of the week, I don't know what your post has to do with the discussion but I have seen that you do not address the issue directly and choose not to get into the kind of discussion you have been having on this forum.
Thank You for your time and have a good new year.
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Defacto
We are talking about Jew in the last half of the week, I don't know what your post has to do with the discussion but I have seen that you do not address the issue directly and choose not to get into the kind of discussion you have been having on this forum.
Thank You for your time and have a good new year.
My response to subject material addressed to me has always been relevant to the issue. My regrets you fail to see that.
Defacto