Bible discussion
Bible Talk => Sound doctrine => Topic started by: Fat on June 16, 2013, 09:57:39 am
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Psalms 139:16 HCSB
"Your eyes saw me when I was formless; all ⌊my⌋ days were written in Your book and planned before a single one of them began."
Has God planned our lives for us?
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I believe He plans on our reaction to stimuli that He creates. He knows exactly what we are going to do to the situation He creates around us.
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God know where I was going before He made me, in a way He chose me to follow Him.
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God know where I was going before He made me, in a way He chose me to follow Him.
Amen!
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Psalms 139:16 HCSB
"Your eyes saw me when I was formless; all ⌊my⌋ days were written in Your book and planned before a single one of them began."
Has God planned our lives for us?
It would appear that he has plans for the saints. It may be supposed that the rest are catered for, too; perhaps, exquisitely. "The measure you use, it will be measured to you." So the measure that we use here is the measure that we can confidently expect in eternity, with no favors given, no matter how religious we may appear. Actions matter, not words, in the end. If we do for others as we expect others to do for us, we will get equitable treatment, and better. If we live selfish lives here, wanting more than we want to give, we can expect to suffer as we made others suffer. If we lie here, we can be expected to be lied to. Forever.
This life will seem like ten minutes.
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It would appear that he has plans for the saints. It may be supposed that the rest are catered for, too; perhaps, exquisitely. "The measure you use, it will be measured to you." So the measure that we use here is the measure that we can confidently expect in eternity, with no favors given, no matter how religious we may appear. Actions matter, not words, in the end. If we do for others as we expect others to do for us, we will get equitable treatment, and better. If we live selfish lives here, wanting more than we want to give, we can expect to suffer as we made others suffer. If we lie here, we can be expected to be lied to. Forever.
This life will seem like ten minutes.
Are you saying that God's plan for man is to wait and react to man's actions?
Are you also saying that a righteous man like Job will have an easy life on earth, or are you referring to the after life only?
I think Psalms 139:16 is addressing life on this earth.
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Is it a biblical teaching that the sovereign Creator God of the universe predestinates some individual souls to go to Heaven, and predestines the rest to Hell? No.
There is no doubt in my mind that God sovereign. The problem with this doctrine is quite simple! Man in his intellectual state wants to tell God what He is allowed to do in His 'sovereignty', and how He is allowed to do it.
The entire premise of John 3:16 is "whosoever believers", showing God's willingness to save more than the privileged few.
Jack
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Is it a biblical teaching that the sovereign Creator God of the universe predestinates some individual souls to go to Heaven, and predestines the rest to Hell? No.
There is no doubt in my mind that God sovereign. The problem with this doctrine is quite simple! Man in his intellectual state wants to tell God what He is allowed to do in His 'sovereignty', and how He is allowed to do it.
The entire premise of John 3:16 is "whosoever believers", showing God's willingness to save more than the privileged few.
Jack
Hello Jack.
I am a Calvinist, I hear it said by many people that Calvinists do not believe that people have the choice in their own salvation. This is not the way it goes, we believe that man is so depraved that without the help of the Holy Spirit he would never make that decision for salvation. We also believe, as Paul, that faith which is necessary for salvation comes from the hearing of the gospel.
I was born in a country where obtaining the knowledge of the gospel is quite easy. But others are born in countries where the gospel cannot be taught under penalty of death. These people that are born in these countries did not choose where they were to be born this was a choice made by their Creator. God did not will these people to sin, none to blame but thenselves.
So what did Christ say about our ability to make the right choice?
Matt 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables ?" 11 Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
mark 4:33 With many such parables He was speaking the word to them, so far as they were able to hear it; 34 and He did not speak to them without a parable ; but He was explaining everything privately to His own disciples.
matthew 13:34 All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable. 35 This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet : "I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN PARABLES ; I WILL UTTER THINGS HIDDEN SINCE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD."
matthew 16:16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." …..
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me …
65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
Man has been condemn by his own sin but some have been saved by Grace, no other reason less they shall boast.
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Is it a biblical teaching that the sovereign Creator God of the universe predestinates some individual souls to go to Heaven, and predestines the rest to Hell? No.
There is no doubt in my mind that God sovereign. The problem with this doctrine is quite simple! Man in his intellectual state wants to tell God what He is allowed to do in His 'sovereignty', and how He is allowed to do it.
The problem for the wicked is that they do not want to know that they have to make a choice. Or rather, thousands of choices, because every day is Choose Day. They want to say that it is the 'Sovereign God' who chooses. And He has chosen them. So their hope is that there will be the presumption made by others that they are the elect, whereas they are actually among the most ignoble. So yes, they seem to tell God what He is allowed to do, and, in effect, that they can do as they like, and not suffer the due consequences. That, at any rate, has been the practical effect, and it's not hard to find.
It's quite true that Paul, at first glance, seems to support this appalling notion that God makes some for perdition, but what Paul meant was that, by dying on the cross, by drawing "all men" to Him, Jesus would thereby enforce choice on the whole human race, and that some would not respond appropriately. If all were to respond appropriately, there would be no purpose to the cross. Yes, God knew 'before the creation' who were his, and who not; but we don't. We may 'know' personally, but we cannot prove it to anyone else; and we do not know about anyone else. What is certain is that those who, without checks on personal behavior, anonymously claim to know themselves to be chosen are likely to be feigning belief in order to give themselves credence as genuine teachers. Even the demon-possessed could read the Bible, note that Christians find a plan in their lives, and claim to experience the same. False teachers would do that, and thereby give themselves away. One would suppose that they would have more sense, but they don't.
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Hello Jack.
I am a Calvinist, I hear it said by many people that Calvinists do not believe that people have the choice in their own salvation. This is not the way it goes, we believe that man is so depraved that without the help of the Holy Spirit he would never make that decision for salvation. We also believe, as Paul, that faith which is necessary for salvation comes from the hearing of the gospel.
I was born in a country where obtaining the knowledge of the gospel is quite easy. But others are born in countries where the gospel cannot be taught under penalty of death. These people that are born in these countries did not choose where they were to be born this was a choice made by their Creator. God did not will these people to sin, none to blame but thenselves.
So what did Christ say about our ability to make the right choice?
Matt 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables ?" 11 Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
mark 4:33 With many such parables He was speaking the word to them, so far as they were able to hear it; 34 and He did not speak to them without a parable ; but He was explaining everything privately to His own disciples.
matthew 13:34 All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable. 35 This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet : "I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN PARABLES ; I WILL UTTER THINGS HIDDEN SINCE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD."
matthew 16:16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." …..
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me …
65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
Man has been condemn by his own sin but some have been saved by Grace, no other reason less they shall boast.
Predestination (since the days of Calvin) have taught the subject (salvation) using the Five points of TULIP.
I only desire to briefly address the first point at this time.
T = Total Depravity
I have no problem with man being depraved. I do not believe it is possible for a man to see God, without God revealing Himself to man. The question of the hour is: how does God reveal Himself to man?
How does a man (I use man as a common gender term) who is depraved see God? My problem with this teaching of "Total" depravity, puts man at a position of condemnation at birth.
In Romans 1 we see,
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed itunto them.
When I was in 9th grade I took biology. One of my assignments was to use a book to identify trees. Without getting into a long description, this tree used the pattern of the different parts of the tree to identify them. I found out as the years went by, everything in nature has order. What I'm saying is, this is the meaning of the above verses.
I was a depraved teenager, but I saw the order of nature. This order is not an accident, it is God traveling Himself at the most basic level. This is the type of evidence God uses to accomplish two things: 1) Order gives evidence of a Creator God; and 2) Evidence brings responsibility.
Then in Romans 2 we see,
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
This is where man chooses.
A sin nature is not the only thing man inherited from Adam. Adam also passed on the knowledge of "good and evil". This knowledge must be dealt with by man. While he may be clueless as to the identity of the true God, the Holy Spirit will bear witness to the truth; mainly that there is a God, and that his sin is evil.
There have been many testimonials of missionaries that were taken completely off course by what seemed at the time to be coincidental ((storms, broken down transportation), where the missionaries were able to lead someone to Christ, because of the event altering the plans of men! God truly does will for all to repent!
1 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Jack
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That is 2 Peter 3:9 and when read in context you see it refers to the elect not all man kind.
Some other pertinent verses about the doctrine of predestination.
First Romans 9:11
Romans 9:6-16
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Neither are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants. On the contrary, in Isaac your seed will be called. 8 That is, it is not the children by physical descent who are God's children, but the children of the promise are considered seed. 9 For this is the statement of the promise: At this time I will come, and Sarah will have a son. 10 And not only that, but also when Rebekah became pregnant by Isaac our forefather 11 (for though they had not been born yet or done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to election (ejklevgw) might stand, 12 not from works but from the One who calls) she was told: The older will serve the younger. 13 As it is written: Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.
The word used for election is the same word used to describe Paul's conversion. Acts 9:15 translated as chosen.
Acts 9:10-20 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said , Behold , I am here, Lord. 11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise , and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold , he prayeth , 12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in , and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight . 13 Then Ananias answered , Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: 14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. 15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way : for he is a chosen (ejklevgw) vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake . 17 And Ananias went his way , and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said , Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest , hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight , and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose , and was baptized . 19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened . Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. 20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
God truly does will for all to repent!
Not really.
Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen (ejklevgw) us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
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That is 2 Peter 3:9 and when read in context you see it refers to the elect not all man kind.
Some other pertinent verses about the doctrine of predestination.
First Romans 9:11
Romans 9:6-16
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Neither are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants. On the contrary, in Isaac your seed will be called. 8 That is, it is not the children by physical descent who are God's children, but the children of the promise are considered seed. 9 For this is the statement of the promise: At this time I will come, and Sarah will have a son. 10 And not only that, but also when Rebekah became pregnant by Isaac our forefather 11 (for though they had not been born yet or done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to election (ejklevgw) might stand, 12 not from works but from the One who calls) she was told: The older will serve the younger. 13 As it is written: Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.
The word used for election is the same word used to describe Paul's conversion. Acts 9:15 translated as chosen.
Acts 9:10-20 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said , Behold , I am here, Lord. 11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise , and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold , he prayeth , 12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in , and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight . 13 Then Ananias answered , Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: 14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. 15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way : for he is a chosen (ejklevgw) vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake . 17 And Ananias went his way , and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said , Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest , hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight , and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose , and was baptized . 19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened . Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. 20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
Not really.
Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen (ejklevgw) us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Hello Fat,
He we address "U = Unconditional Election"
This really is one of the most interesting parts of 'predestination'. While the cause of people being condemned (according to Calvinists) is "Total Depravity", (which is incorrect ... Depravity is NOT why people are condemned ... According to John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God., people are condemned for NOT BELIEVING); the reason people have eternal life (according to Calvinists), is because of "Unconditional Election".
The teaching is that unconditional election is the act of the Sovereign God determining by His will, who will receive eternal life.
Of course the opposite side of that same coin is that by not choosing souls to give eternal life, He by default is choosing to condemn the rest.
Consider this: Since man has no part is his salvation (it is absolutely the grace of God, with NO input from man; the same has to be true for those who are condemned. The fallacy of this teaching is that since the fall, NOT ONE PERSON has had a CHOICE in their eternal destiny: all the condemned are condemned, not being given a choice to believe, or not believe; and, all of the saved are saved, not given a choice to believe or not believe.
In an effort to glorify God the Calvinists teach that God is sovereign in all things, and, they are correct. The problem is their 'definition' of sovereign. I absolutely believe God is sovereign.
The following is from the Merriam-Webster 2013 Dictionary:
sov·er·eign
noun
1a : one possessing or held to possess supreme political power orsovereignty
b : one that exercises supremeauthority within a limited sphere
c : an acknowledged leader : arbiter
2 : any of various gold coins of theUnited Kingdom
Variants: also sov·ran \ˈsä-v(ə-)rən, -vərn also ˈsə-\
Origin: Middle English soverain, fromAnglo-French soverein, fromsoverein, adjective (see 2sovereign ).
First use: 13th century
Synonyms: autocrat, potentate,ruler, monarch (also sovran)
Allow me to share my thoughts.
By God choosing who gets saved (and who doesn't by default), he receives no glory at all. What has He done to receive glory? Think about it. Let's say God created 1,000,000,000 souls. Since we know far more people go to Hell than Heaven (whether we like it or not it is a Biblical fact), we'll say 1,000,000 souls go to Heaven, leaving 999,000,000 people condemned. Where is the glory in that? God who knows all things; past, present, and future, knew (when creating 1,000,000,000 souls) that 999,000,000 souls would be damned forever. He knew that He was about to create 999,000,000 souls that would ultimately be condemned. Souls that He had absolutely no intention of ever saving. This ultimately means God created them to be damned, and they had NO CHOICE in the matter.
This is not the sovereign God I serve.
Jack
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Let me say one thing before I get started. I see in your profile you are a Baptist. For the most part Baptist are Calvinist, with some exceptions. It also appears to me you are not aware of the deference in Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism. John MacArthur and John Piper are Calvinist not Hyper-Calvinism they do not teach Hyper-Calvinism as you are trying to brand them and mainstream Calvinist with.
>>He we address "U = Unconditional Election"
This really is one of the most interesting parts of 'predestination'. While the cause of people being condemned (according to Calvinists) is "Total Depravity", (which is incorrect ... Depravity is NOT why people are condemned ... According to John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God., people are condemned for NOT BELIEVING); the reason people have eternal life (according to Calvinists), is because of "Unconditional Election".<<<
The real question here and is you Arminians fail to address is how does a sinner come to believe? In have posted the answer in Christ words in my Reply #7. You side stepped that question by switching the subject to your definition of TULIP. But you are now bring yourself back to that point, HOW DOES ONE COME TO BELIEVE UNTO HIM? Answer is in John 6 above.
>>The teaching is that unconditional election is the act of the Sovereign God determining by His will, who will receive eternal life.
Of course the opposite side of that same coin is that by not choosing souls to give eternal life, He by default is choosing to condemn the rest.<<<
I could make the same argument from your first paragraph. If God only chooses to save those that believe He is choosing to condemn the rest.
>>>Consider this: Since man has no part is his salvation (it is absolutely the grace of God, with NO input from man; the same has to be true for those who are condemned. The fallacy of this teaching is that since the fall, NOT ONE PERSON has had a CHOICE in their eternal destiny: all the condemned are condemned, not being given a choice to believe, or not believe; and, all of the saved are saved, not given a choice to believe or not believe.<<<
Again I point you to John 6.
>>>>The following is from the Merriam-Webster 2013 Dictionary:
sov·er·eign<<<
I prefer Strong's when it comes to the bible.
Strong's Number: 4437
Original Word
Word Origin
wklm
corresponding to (04438)
Transliterated Word
TDNT Entry
Malkuw (Aramaic)
TWOT - 2829c
Phonetic Spelling
Parts of Speech
mal-koo'
Noun Feminine
Definition
1. royalty, reign, kingdom
1. royalty, kingship, kingly authority
2. kingdom
3. realm (of territory)
4. reign (of time)
NAS Word Usage - Total: 57
government affairs 1, kingdom 38, kingdoms 3, realm 4, reign 4, royal 3, sovereignty 4
>>By God choosing who gets saved (and who doesn't by default), he receives no glory at all. What has He done to receive glory? Think about it. Let's say God created 1,000,000,000 souls. Since we know far more people go to Hell than Heaven (whether we like it or not it is a Biblical fact), we'll say 1,000,000 souls go to Heaven, leaving 999,000,000 people condemned. Where is the glory in that? God who knows all things; past, present, and future, knew (when creating 1,000,000,000 souls) that 999,000,000 souls would be damned forever. He knew that He was about to create 999,000,000 souls that would ultimately be condemned. Souls that He had absolutely no intention of ever saving. This ultimately means God created them to be damned, and they had NO CHOICE in the matter.<<
What sinner seeks God without His help?
Man has condemned himself. God is a Just God and judges sin and those who commit it but He does not see the sins of those who are covered by the Cross.
>>This is not the sovereign God I serve.<<
That sounds like something you would hear from Oprah Winfrey.
And that is a shame.
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I don't want to put words in you mouth, Jack but it sounds to me that you believe God owes you something. Do you say He was unjust by choosing the Jews as His people? Look at what God says He is going to do to nations that take land from them, is that your God?
By the way do you think that Satan does not believe Jesus is the Son of God?
Nice to meet you Jack.
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Fat,
I must admit that the last sentence I wrote did sound like something Oprah would say. So allow me to make the statement, a bit more in the affirmative. This is not the sovereign God I serve, because that is not the sovereign God of the Bible.
The sovereign God of the Bible is full of compassion and takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
Ez. 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
God has His prophet literally pleading with His people, to get them to turn (repent). This is a God of love for the entire nation of Israel, not just a few 'elect' souls. There is no way to take this verse and say, "Oh, God was just talking about the 'elect'". No the text, and context, are quite clear; He is addressing the "house of Israel". Just like when we see the use of "all", and "whosoever" throughout the scriptures; it is not only the 'elect' as you have tried to say, it is what it says it is; "all" and "whosoever". That is the truth of the scripture.
Matt. 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
In this text it is Jesus Himself pleading with Jerusalem. There are two points here that need observation: 1) What Jesus has 'willed' to do (the use of the word "would" shows 'desire'); and 2) Jerusalem's response to this 'call'.
The people of Israel (and Jerusalem) will be judged by Christ.
2 Tim. 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
I am drawing attention to The Lord being "righteous judge". A righteous judge judges righteously. My question therefore is, What does a righteous judge use to make a judgement?
Jack
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>>Matt. 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
In this text it is Jesus Himself pleading with Jerusalem. There are two points here that need observation: 1) What Jesus has 'willed' to do (the use of the word "would" shows 'desire'); and 2) Jerusalem's response to this 'call'.<<
1) In both your quoted verses there was no Cross to go to.
2) You should read Matthew 23 in context, He was addressing the scribes and Pharisees.
Matthew 23:32-39 HCS
32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' sins! 33 "Snakes! Brood of vipers! How can you escape being condemned to hell? 34 This is why I am sending you prophets, sages, and scribes. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will flog in your synagogues and hound from town to town. 35 So all the righteous blood shed on the earth will be charged to you, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 I assure you: All these things will come on this generation!
37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem! The city who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her. How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, yet you were not willing! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will never see Me again until you say, Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord! "
>>>>The people of Israel (and Jerusalem) will be judged by Christ.
2 Tim. 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
I am drawing attention to The Lord being "righteous judge". A righteous judge judges righteously. My question therefore is, What does a righteous judge use to make a judgement?<<<
What did He use to judge the world before He called for the flood? What did He use to judge Sodom?
All Christians will also be judged by Christ, "but unto all them also that love his appearing".
The Bible tells us of two judgments:
1) The judgment of the lost: Rev. 20:11-15. It is called the "Great White Throne Judgment".
2) The judgment of the saved: 1 Cor. 3:10-23, 2 Cor. 5:10-11.
1 Corinthians 11:32 KJV
But when we are judged , we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
Now back to predestination.
2 Thessalonians 2
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work ; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming ; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. 13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
And back to John 6 in case you missed it.
John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me …
65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
You see the word all in vs 37? How about the word Everyone? Do you see where it says, "no one can come to Me unless", in vs 65?
In the vs 65 the word divdwmi is translated as granted or given in some translations.
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I remembered an audio sermon I uploaded that I thought might be worth some thought.
Here is a cut'n paste from the text.
NO. 187 PROVIDENCE by C.H Spurgeon
I will take a Scripture history and show how the little events must have been of God, as well as
the great results. When Joseph was sent into Egypt by his brothers, in order to provide for them against a day of famine,
we all agree with Joseph’s declaration, “It was God that sent me here.” But now, if we notice each of the little ways
through which this great result was brought to pass, we shall see God in each of them. One day Joseph’s brothers are out
with the sheep. Jacob wants to send to them. Why does he send Joseph? He was his darling son—he loved him better than
all his brothers. Why does he send him away? He sends him. Then why should it have happened at that particular time
that Jacob should want to send at all? However, he did want to send and he did send Joseph—a mere accident you will
say—but quite necessary as the foundation of the structure! Joseph goes. His brothers are in need of pasture and, therefore,
leave Shechem, where Joseph expected to find them and journeys on to Dothan. Why go to Dothan? Was not the
whole land before them? However Joseph goes there. He arrives at Dothan just when they are thinking of him and his
dreams and they put him into a pit. As they are about to eat bread, some Ishmaelites came by. Why did they come there at
all? Why did they come at that particular time? Why were they going to Egypt? Why might they not have been going
another way? Why was it that the Ishmaelite wanted to buy slaves? Why might they not have been trading in some other
commodity? However Joseph is sold. But he is not disposed of on the road to Egypt—he is taken to the land. Why is it
that Potiphar is to buy him? Why is it that Potiphar has a wife, at all? Why is it again, that Potiphar’s wife should be so
full of lust? Why should Joseph get into prison? How is it that the baker and the butler should offend their master? All
chance, as the world has it, but every link necessary to make the chain! They do both offend their master. They are both
put into prison. How is it that they both dream? How is it that Joseph interprets the dreams? How is it that the butler
forgets him? Why? Because if he had remembered him, it would have spoiled it all! Why is it Pharaoh dreams? How can
dreams be under the arrangement of God’s Providence? However, Pharaoh does dream and the butler then thinks of Joseph.
Joseph is brought out of prison and taken before Pharaoh.
Take away any of those simple circumstances—break any one of the links of the chain and the whole of the design is
scattered to the winds! You cannot get the machine to work if any of the minute cogs of the wheels are taken away—
everything becomes disarranged. I think it seems very clear to any man who will dissect not only that but any other history
he likes to fix upon, there must be a God in the little accidents and dealings of daily life, as well as in the great results
that tell upon the pages of history and are recounted in our songs! God is to be seen in little things!
We will now notice in the minutiae of Providence, how punctual Providence always is. You will never wonder more
at Providence than when you consider how well God keeps time with Himself. To return to our history—how is it that
the Ishmaelites should come by just at that time? How many thousand chances there were that their journey might have
been taken just before! There certainly was no special train to call at that station at that particular time so that Joseph’s
brothers might arrange to go and call him. No such thing! And yet if there had been all this arrangement, it could not
have happened better. You know Reuben intended to fetch Joseph out of the pit half an hour later and “the child was
not.” God had these Ishmaelites ready—you do not know how He may have sped them on their journey, or delayed them
so as to bring them on the spot punctually at the exact moment!
Here is the full sermon.
http://inhisword.net/spur/mp3/no187.mp3 (http://inhisword.net/spur/mp3/no187.mp3)
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What God owes me.
Absolutely nothing. Notta. Zero.
Jesus paid it all, All to Him I owe; Sin had left a crimson stain, He washed it white as snow!
Was God unjust to choose the Jews as His people? Absolutely not. There is however a flaw in the 'application' of that question. I understand that you will insinuate that your application is proper; but the fact that you say it, doesn't make it factual.
God choosing the Jews to show His greatness, and God choosing to condemn millions of souls; are two completely different issues.
The one choice is about the use of a nation, while the other is the literal condemnation of untold millions.
"Look at what God says He is going to do to nations that take land from them, is that your God?"
Yes, very much so. I believe wholeheartedly that God is just. The nations to which you refer make a choice; they make the wrong choice. That is why they receive the judgement they do at the hand of God.
"By the way do you think that Satan does not believe Jesus is the Son of God?"
Mauser,
All the questions (except the last one) seemed to be legitimate. Them came the one above. Did you you really ask me that question? Well, let's see. Lucifer (Satan) was the anointed cherub. That probably means that he is pretty sure as to the identity of The Son of God. James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. All of the fallen angels know who the Son of God is; the problem is that I believe (without taking a rabbit trail, and without opening a new subject) that there was a time in Heaven, when every member of the 'angelic host' was given a choice: God, or Lucifer. (The ones that chose wrong figured out they made the wrong choice, too late.) but the short answer is yes, they all know who Jesus is.
Why I find this question so amazing is that it is Jesus Himself who said, "Be not afraid, only believe." So when you insinuate with your question that salvation comes via another way than belief I'm the Son of God; I am forced to ask, How are you being saved?
And it's nice to meet you as well!
Jack
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Hello Jack
God choosing the Jews to show His greatness, and God choosing to condemn millions of souls; are two completely different issues.
Oh I see.
Exodus 12:23 "For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians ; and when He sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the LORD will pass over the door and will not allow the destroyer to come in to your houses to smite you.
I wonder why the Egyptians didn't put the blood on their door. It is amazing that Christ crucifixion came on the observance of that day.
All the questions (except the last one) seemed to be legitimate. Them came the one above. Did you you really ask me that question? Well, let's see. Lucifer (Satan) was the anointed cherub. That probably means that he is pretty sure as to the identity of The Son of God. James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. All of the fallen angels know who the Son of God is; the problem is that I believe (without taking a rabbit trail, and without opening a new subject) that there was a time in Heaven, when every member of the 'angelic host' was given a choice: God, or Lucifer. (The ones that chose wrong figured out they made the wrong choice, too late.) but the short answer is yes, they all know who Jesus is.
All mankind chose to do the wrong thing. Do you disagree?
Why I find this question so amazing is that it is Jesus Himself who said, "Be not afraid, only believe." So when you insinuate with your question that salvation comes via another way than belief I'm the Son of God; I am forced to ask, How are you being saved?
So you are saying it takes more than belief, it takes a choice. That is not consistent with what you said earlier however let's move on. There are two actions, acknowledgement and then repentance.
Repentance is a change of mind, a change of attitude, a complete turning around of your life.
From reading your post you appear to believe that this was done by you on your own accord. But what does the bible teach us?
Acts 5:31 NAS
"He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a
Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Acts 11:18 NAS
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well
then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to
life."
Romans 2:4 NAS
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and
patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance ?
2 Corinthians 7:9 NAS
I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made
sorrowful to the point of repentance ; for you were made sorrowful
according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in
anything through us.
2 Corinthians 7:10 NAS
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance
without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces
death.
2 Timothy 2:25 NAS
with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may
grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
So what say you Jack, do you content that the death of sinners because of God's righteous judgement does not bring glory to His name?
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The following was copied from "Apologetics"/"Regeneration and the Holy Spirit", a topic that was started by Fat.
"Regeneration and the Holy Spirit
“Ye must be born again.” This word of our Lord Jesus has appeared to flame in the way of many, like the drawn sword of the cherub at the gate of Paradise. They have despaired, because this change is beyond their utmost effort. The new birth is from above, and therefore it is not in the creature’s power. Now, it is far from my mind to deny, or ever to conceal, a truth in order to create a false comfort. I freely admit that the new birth is supernatural, and that it cannot be wrought by the sinner’s own self. It would be a poor help to my reader if I were wicked enough to try to cheer him by persuading him to reject or forget what is unquestionably true.
But is it not remarkable that the very chapter in which our Lord makes this sweeping declaration also contains the most explicit statement as to salvation by faith? Read the third chapter of John’s Gospel and do not dwell alone upon its earlier sentences. It is true that the third verse says:
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
But, then, the fourteenth and fifteenth verses speak:
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
The eighteenth verse repeats the same doctrine in the broadest terms:
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
It is clear to every reader that these two statements must agree, since they came from the same lips, and are recorded on the same inspired page. Why should we make a difficulty where there can be none? If one statement assures us of the necessity to salvation of a something, which only God can give, and if another assures us that the Lord will save us upon our believing in Jesus, then we may safely conclude that the Lord will give to those who believe all that is declared to be necessary to salvation. The Lord does, in fact, produce the new birth in all who believe in Jesus; and their believing is the surest evidence that they are born again.
We trust in Jesus for what we cannot do ourselves: if it were in our own power, what need of looking to Him? It is ours to believe, it is the Lord’s to create us anew. He will not believe for us, neither are we to do regenerating work for Him. It is enough for us to obey the gracious command; it is for the Lord to work the new birth in us. He who could go so far as to die on the cross for us, can and will give us all things that are needful for our eternal safety.
“But a saving change of heart is the work of the Holy Spirit.” This also is most true, and let it be far from us to question it, or to forget it. But the work of the Holy Spirit is secret and mysterious, and it can only be perceived by its results. There are mysteries about our natural birth into which it would be an unhallowed curiosity to pry: still more is this the case with the sacred operations of the Spirit of God. “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, or whither it goeth; so is every one that is born of the Spirit.” This much, however, we do know—the mysterious work of the Holy Spirit cannot be a reason for refusing to believe in Jesus to whom that same Spirit beareth witness.
If a man were bidden to sow a field, he could not excuse his neglect by saying that it would be useless to sow unless God caused the seed to grow. He would not be justified in neglecting tillage because the secret energy of God alone can create a harvest. No one is hindered in the ordinary pursuits of life by the fact that unless the Lord build the house they labor in vain that build it. It is certain that no man who believes in Jesus will ever find that the Holy Spirit refuses to work in him: in fact, his believing is the proof that the Spirit is already at work in his heart.
God works in providence, but men do not therefore sit still. They could not move without the divine power giving them life and strength, and yet they proceed upon their way without question; the power being bestowed from day to day by Him in whose hand their breath is, and whose are all their ways. So is it in grace. We repent and believe, though we could do neither if the Lord did not enable us. We forsake sin and trust in Jesus, and then we perceive that the Lord has wrought in us to will and to do of His own good pleasure. It is idle to pretend that there is any real difficulty in the matter.
Some truths which it is hard to explain in words are simple enough in actual experience. There is no discrepancy between the truth that the sinner believes, and that his faith is wrought in him by the Holy Spirit. Only folly can lead men to puzzle themselves about plain matters while their souls are in danger. No man would refuse to enter a lifeboat because he did not know the specific gravity of bodies; neither would a starving man decline to eat till he understood the whole process of nutrition. If you, my reader, will not believe till you can understand all mysteries, you will never be saved at all; and if you allow self-invented difficulties to keep you from accepting pardon through your Lord and Saviour, you will perish in a condemnation which will be richly deserved. Do not commit spiritual suicide through a passion for discussing metaphysical subtleties.
BY C.H. SPURGEON
He is known today as 'The Prince of Preachers' for obvious reasons.
He has certainly spoken the truth. This leaves the reader with a choice: 1) Believe, and be saved; or 2) Continue to not believe, and commit 'spiritual suicide'.
How do we believe? When we are in spiritual darkness, the Light shines upon our souls. While our flesh loves darkness, the Holy Spirit speaks to us through our spirit. We then, like Adam on the Garden must choose; do we accept the Truth, the Life, Jesus; or, do we cling to our pride, and reject the Light.
Herein lies the balance of truth. The Father has given us His Son, along with the witness of the Holy Spirit. We must choose: pronounce ourselves guilty of sin deserving the wrath of God upon our souls, and accept the work of Christ to make atonement for our sin. Only by accepting His finished work can we have eternal life that cannot be lost, or taken away. Acceptance comes through believing; believing comes when we are convinced that God is telling the truth in His Word.
Simply put, the Holy Spirit bears witness to our spirit so that we can believe what God says about us being Hell deserving sinners, in need of God's salvation. Believing God causes us to choose His salvation.
Please understand; providence is not predestination. Providence is the result of 'foreknowledge'. Because God is God, He knew before the foundation of the world, He knew every decision every soul would make concerning ever matter in their lives, including accepting, or rejecting His grace. God in His provision arranged for example every event in Joseph's life.
Ex. 20: 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourthgeneration of them that hate me;
As time passes from generation to generation, each generation that rejects God's grace (by choice), passes this curse on to the next generation (whether they realize it or not). Matt. 27: 25 The answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
God does not predestinates every action in our life; but as Spurgeon stated, God can cause events in our life to happen sooner, or later to fit His schedule. Again, this is providence, not predestination.
God gives all of mankind the same witness in order to believe; it is up to each individual to make a choice, based on that witness.
Notice his words above, "It is ours to believe, it is the Lord’s to create us anew."
Jack
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You asked me a question Jack, I answerd your question and you're not responding to it.
Does this mean that you agree or disagree that repentance is required for salvation?
Mac
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Please understand; providence is not predestination. Providence is the result of 'foreknowledge'. Because God is God, He knew before the foundation of the world, He knew every decision every soul would make concerning ever matter in their lives, including accepting, or rejecting His grace. God in His provision arranged for example every event in Joseph's life.
I'm having a hard time understanding your example of Joseph's life. Are you suggesting that God did not interfere in the decisions made by men that eventually brought Joseph to be in the position to glorify God?
Nobody is disputing that we must believe, the question is how do we come to that belief.
Mark 9:24 Immediately the boy's father cried out and said, "I do believe ; help my unbelief."
John 6:43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. 46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God ; He has seen the Father. 47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
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John 12: 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
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"Adam and Eve prove that man is sinful on his own and he needs no help from God.
You have to admit yourself that God knew Adam would sin when he put the tree in the garden."
Both of the above statements are true; however, the latter insinuates that, since God knew what Adam would do, He was predestined to do it. (So much for the Covenant of Works.) Foreknowledge is not predestination. This is the entire problem with Calvinism. Calvinists are taught that foreknowledge is predestination. This is not the case.
Years ago Martha Stewart used information she knew about an event in the trade industry, 'foreknowledge' to make money. She did not make the event happen 'predestination'. This illustration is only to serve as a distinction between foreknowledge, and predestination.
God in His wisdom uses His foreknowledge to intervene (not interfere [there is a difference]) in providence to keep His plan on schedule.
Every interpretation of scripture viewed by a Jehovah's Witness is tweaked to take away the Deity of Christ; every interpretation of scripture viewed by an Arminian is tweaked to only stress the will of man; and every scripture viewed by a Calvinist is tweaked in the light of predestination.
John 3: 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
1) It says God so loved the "world" ...
A Calvinists sees, For God so loved "the elect" ...
2) It says "whosoever believers" ...
A Calvinist sees, "whosoever of the elect that believeth" ...
When we go to schools of 'higher learning' we are taught what the 'school' wants us to know and believe.
For example, I just posted, John 12: 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
A Calvinist sees, And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all of "the elect" men unto me.
Rather than read what is written, we learn to read through a filter that only lets us see what the school wants us to see. Right about now is when people get really upset. You see, it is okay for the school on the right end of the spectrum to say that the left end of the spectrum is teaching false doctrine; but it's not okay for the left end of the spectrum to say that the right end of the spectrum is teaching false doctrine. What is funny to me, is that I have studied at both ends of the spectrum (Dispensationalism and Calvinism) and heard nothing but hate and contempt for the other side.
So I say again, foreknowledge is not predestination!
Fat,
You said,
"1) In both your quoted verses there was no Cross to go to.
2) You should read Matthew 23 in context, He was addressing the scribes and Pharisees. "
Are you now a Dispensationalist?
I am fully aware of who He was talking to, Matthew 23: 1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
This is an example of that filtering.
The Bible says, Matthew 23: 1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Fat says, "1) In both your quoted verses there was no Cross to go to.
2) You should read Matthew 23 in context, He was addressing the scribes and Pharisees. "
Now the Bible says Jesus spake to "the multitude, and to his disciples", Fat says, "He was addressing the scribes and Pharisees."
Did you see that filtering?
Jack
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There is filtering and misleading.
First let's take John 12:32 and look at it in context.
32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
Here again as in John 6 Christ use the word all. Jack says this is not the elect Christ is speaking of. Then John 12 and John 6 are in conflict with each other. Or that there are no atheist in the world, or Christ Lied. READ ON.
33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die. 34 The crowd then answered Him, "We have heard out of the Law that the Christ is to remain forever ; and how can You say, 'The Son of Man must be lifted up'? Who is this Son of Man ?" 35 So Jesus said to them, "For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes. 36 "While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light." These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them. 37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke : "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT ? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED ?" 39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40 "HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM" 41 These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.
This is an example of that filtering.
The Bible says, Matthew 23: 1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Fat says, "1) In both your quoted verses there was no Cross to go to.
2) You should read Matthew 23 in context, He was addressing the scribes and Pharisees. "
Now the Bible says Jesus spake to "the multitude, and to his disciples", Fat says, "He was addressing the scribes and Pharisees."
And let's look at Matt 23 this verse comes right after the eight woes given to the Pharisees.
13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people ; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14 ["Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers ; therefore you will receive greater condemnation.] 15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte ; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves. 16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing ; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple is obligated.' 17 "You fools and blind men ! Which is more important, the gold or the temple that sanctified the gold ? 18 "And, 'Whoever swears by the altar, that is nothing, but whoever swears by the offering on it, he is obligated.' 19 "You blind men, which is more important, the offering, or the altar that sanctifies the offering ? 20 "Therefore, whoever swears by the altar, swears both by the altar and by everything on it. 21 "And whoever swears by the temple, swears both by the temple and by Him who dwells within it. 22 "And whoever swears by heaven, swears both by the throne of God and by Him who sits upon it. 23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites ! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law : justice and mercy and faithfulness ; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. 24 "You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel ! 25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites ! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence. 26 "You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also. 27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites ! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. 28 "So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. 29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites ! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31 "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell ? 34 "Therefore , behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes ; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
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Mathew 23: 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thouthat killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Do you see the words "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem? The Pharisees were in the multitude, and He rebuked them openly, in public. But he is talking to the "multitude". Take off your filter, and look at what the Bible says!
Jack
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I seems to me that refusing to address scriptures but to you for consideration is a form of filtering.
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Mathew 23: 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thouthat killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Do you see the words "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem? The Pharisees were in the multitude, and He rebuked them openly, in public. But he is talking to the "multitude". Take off your filter, and look at what the Bible says!
Jack
They were all Jews Jack.
Read the verse it comes after the condemnation of the Pharisees.
But let's say this verse is directed only to the Jews who were not Disciples or Pharisees and for the most part not at this gathering. Do you believe that there is only one Will of God or do you believe that there are two Wills of God? Most of your learned academia friends would say there are two, does not this verse show them to be correct?
Isn't it in the same frame as Paul wrote to Timothy?
1 Timothy 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
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Jack, Fat
You both miss the real point.
Matthew 23:37 as in dozens of other verses shows the love God has for His CHOSEN PEOPLE.
Deuteronomy 7:6 NAS "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God ; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
2 Chronicles 6:6 NAS but I have chosen Jerusalem that My name might be there, and I have chosen David to be over My people Israel.'
Jack you talk of filters. WOW!
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Hello Bob,
"Matthew 23:37 as in dozens of other verses shows the love God has for His CHOSEN PEOPLE. "
Are you saying God only loves Jews?
Jack
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Hello Bob,
"Matthew 23:37 as in dozens of other verses shows the love God has for His CHOSEN PEOPLE. "
Are you saying God only loves Jews?
Jack
I'm saying that the seed of Abraham are the chosen people of God. Do you disagree with that jack?
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The physical seed of Abraham are God's chosen people.
Jack
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The physical seed of Abraham are God's chosen people.
Jack
Hello Jack
What does the Bible say Jack.
Galatians 3 CSB
8 Now the Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith and foretold the good news to Abraham, saying, All the nations will be blessed in you. 9 So those who have faith are blessed with Abraham, who had faith.....
14 The purpose was that the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that we could receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brothers, I'm using a human illustration. No one sets aside even a human covenant that has been ratified, or makes additions to it. Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say "and to seeds," as though referring to many, but and to your seed, referring to one, who is Christ......
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is no Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, heirs according to the promise.
Do the scriptures lie Jack?
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Hello Bob,
"Matthew 23:37 as in dozens of other verses shows the love God has for His CHOSEN PEOPLE. "
Are you saying God only loves Jews?
Jack
The physical seed of Abraham are God's chosen people.
Jack
No not at all. Have you read of the vine and the root. Romans 11
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The Bible speaks of two kinds of calls or callings of the Holy Spirit.
External Call to all sinners who are brought in contact with His Word.
For many are called, but few are chosen.
Matthew 22:14
Internal Call this call is the Holy Spirit's irresistible, saving application of the gospel to the hearts of His children.
Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, thern He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.
Romans 8:30
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What is Israel? What is a Jew?
Here we enter into the world of 'semantics'.
A Calvinist defines the "elect" or "chosen" as the Jews of all ages, along with any Gentiles that get saved.
I have been accused of avoiding John 6; so let's take a look.
John 6
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
According to Calvinism, this passage states the following:
1) vs. 37
A. The "chosen" or "elect" are all those that the Father gives to the Son.
B. All the Father gives to the Son will come to the Son.
C. All (the chosen) that come to the Son, the Son will not cast out.
2) vs. 38 The Son did not come to do His own will, rather, He came to do the will of the Father.
3) vs. 39
A. It is the will of the Father that the Son should loose none of those that were given Him (the "chosen" or "elect")
B. it is the Will of the Father that the Son should raise up al of the "chosen" or "elect" again at the last day.
4) vs. 40
A. It is the will of the Father that every one which sees the Son, and believes on Him (the "chosen" or "elect") may have everlasting live (be saved forever).
B. And the Son will raise him (the "chosen" or "elect") up at the last day.
Did I get that right?
Jack
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What is Israel? What is a Jew?
Here we enter into the world of 'semantics'.
A Calvinist defines the "elect" or "chosen" as the Jews of all ages, along with any Gentiles that get saved.
I have been accused of avoiding John 6; so let's take a look.
John 6
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
According to Calvinism, this passage states the following:
1) vs. 37
A. The "chosen" or "elect" are all those that the Father gives to the Son.
B. All the Father gives to the Son will come to the Son.
C. All (the chosen) that come to the Son, the Son will not cast out.
2) vs. 38 The Son did not come to do His own will, rather, He came to do the will of the Father.
3) vs. 39
A. It is the will of the Father that the Son should loose none of those that were given Him (the "chosen" or "elect")
B. it is the Will of the Father that the Son should raise up al of the "chosen" or "elect" again at the last day.
4) vs. 40
A. It is the will of the Father that every one which sees the Son, and believes on Him (the "chosen" or "elect") may have everlasting live (be saved forever).
B. And the Son will raise him (the "chosen" or "elect") up at the last day.
Did I get that right?
Jack
Again Jack you have your biased filters on. Let us look at the post as it was posted.
John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." …..
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me …
65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
In short Jack, you did not get it right try again. See if you can find from the verses you left out, who the elect (chosen) are and where they come from.
Paul has tried to help you out here in Rom 8.
29 For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified.
This is a Bible-based discussion board and the rules state that you must supply biblical reference when asked.
You have been giving a lot of you're feeling good opinions, but I am now making that request that you back up your further statements with the biblical references thank you.
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A Calvinist defines the "elect" or "chosen" as the Jews of all ages, along with any Gentiles that get saved.
I have been accused of avoiding John 6; so let's take a look.
John 6
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
According to Calvinism, this passage states the following:
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
1) vs. 37
A. The "chosen" or "elect" are all those that the Father gives to the Son.
B. All the Father gives to the Son will come to the Son.
C. All (the chosen) that come to the Son, the Son will not cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
2) vs. 38 The Son did not come to do His own will, rather, He came to do the will of the Father.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
3) vs. 39
A. It is the will of the Father that the Son should loose none of those that were given Him (the "chosen" or "elect")
B. it is the Will of the Father that the Son should raise up al of the "chosen" or "elect" again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
4) vs. 40
A. It is the will of the Father that every one which sees the Son, and believes on Him (the "chosen" or "elect") may have everlasting live (be saved forever).
B. And the Son will raise him (the "chosen" or "elect") up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
5) vs. 44
A. No man (the "chosen" or "elect) can come to the Son, except (or unless) the Father draw him.
B. And the Son will raise him (the "chosen" or "elect") up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
6) vs. 45
A. It is written in the prophets
B. And they (the "chosen" or "elect") shall be all (the "chosen" or "elect") taught of God.
C. Every man (the "chosen" or "elect") therefore that hath heard
D. And (every man [the "chosen" or "elect"]) hath learned of the Father
E. (only the "chosen" or "elect") cometh unto me.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
7) vs. 65
A. Jesus said, No man (the "chosen" or "elect") can come to the Son, except (or unless) they (the "chosen" or "elect") were given to the Son of the Father.
Summary:
The Father has "chosen" or "elected" particular people to be saved. These "chosen" or "elected" people can only go to the Son to be saved if the Father draws them. These "chosen" or "elect" are the Jews of all ages, along with any Gentiles that get saved.
Did I get that right?
Jack
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No Jack you got it wrong. For instance 'no man' does not mean 'chosen or elect'.
According to Calvinism, this passage states the following:
John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." …..
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me …
65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
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Fat,
Please define the "chosen" or "elect". Please give your references, and please don't just say, "Those who are predestinated"; that is known as circular reasoning.
I want YOUR DEFINITION OF THE CHOSEN.
Jack
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Fat,
Please define the "chosen" or "elect". Please give your references, and please don't just say, "Those who are predestinated"; that is known as circular reasoning.
I want YOUR DEFINITION OF THE CHOSEN.
Jack
Rom 8:29 For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified.
Ephesians 1:5 He predestined us to be adopted through Jesus Christ for Himself, according to His favor and will,
Eph 1:11 In Him we were also made His inheritance, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will,
Strong's Number: 4309
Original Word Word Origin
proorizo from (4253) and (3724)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Proorizo 5:456,728
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
pro-or-id'-zo Verb
Definition
to predetermine, decide beforehand
in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
to foreordain, appoint beforehand
Used in acts 4:28 showing that Christ was predestined to the CROSS. And 1 corinthians 2:7 speaking of God's hidden wisdom.
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Fat,
You did not answer my question.
I specifically want to know, Who are the "chosen" ones?
Jack
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Fat,
You did not answer my question.
I specifically want to know, Who are the "chosen" ones?
Jack
Those who have the inheritance:
Ephesians 1:11
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
Rom 8:29 30 And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified.
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Fat,
Do you believe the Bible specifies who God's chosen people are?
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Fat,
Do you believe the Bible specifies who God's chosen people are?
That question has been answered.
Do you want to discuss what you believe the Scriptures posted of John 6 say, or is it that you have no independent thought or have never considered the verses posted? These are all words of Christ not words of man, not even the words of a disciple or apostle.
I believe these verses are self-explanatory and they say what they say. If you believe they don't say what they say or have some biblical reference to show otherwise enlighten us, I am truly interested to hear from such an enlightened person as yourself having been so highly educated.
I'll give you a heads up being as you are new on this board. The admindude (AKA Bob) does not like or tolerate a circular debate. It confuses those who read the forum and never answers the questions concerning the Scriptures. We have far more readers than people who participate on the Board. If you check the stats you will see that we are getting close to hundred thousand pages read a month, yet we only have 49 users. I started this thread I do not want it shutdown because you want to play games.
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Fat,
Are you familiar with Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology?
Jack
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Fat,
Are you familiar with Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology?
Jack
Yes
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Fat,
Then you're aware he is a Calvinist who is Professor of Theology and Biblical Studies at Pheonix Seminary?
Jack
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Fat,
Then you're aware he is a Calvinist who is Professor of Theology and Biblical Studies at Pheonix Seminary?
Jack
Turn to page 692 (in my copy) Ch 33 under A) Effective Calling. Do you have the page?
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Now that I know you recognize him as an authority on Calvinism, I'm going to share some of his words on Covenant Theology.
Jack
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Now that I know you recognize him as an authority on Calvinism, I'm going to share some of his words on Covenant Theology.
Jack
Let me share some of his words on Rom 8:29-30
When Paul talks about the way that God brings salvation into our lives, he says, “Those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified” (Rom. 8:30). Here Paul points to a definite order in which the blessings of salvation come to us. Although long ago, before the world was made, God “predestined” us to be his children and to be conformed to the image of his Son, Paul points to the fact that in the actual outworking of his purpose in our lives God “called” us (here in this context, God the Father is specifically in view). Then Paul immediately lists justification and glorification, showing that these come after calling. Paul indicates that there is a definite order in God’s saving purpose (though not every aspect of our salvation is mentioned here). So we will begin our discussion of the different parts of our experience of salvation with the topic of calling....
When Paul says, “Those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified” (Rom. 8:30), he indicates that calling is an act of God. In fact, it is specifically an act of God the Father, for he is the one who predestines people “to be conformed to the image of his Son” (Rom. 8:29). Other verses describe more fully what this calling is. When God calls people in this powerful way, he calls them “out of darkness into his marvelous light” (1 Peter 2:9); he calls them “into the fellowship of his Son” (1 Cor. 1:9; cf. Acts 2:39) and “into his own kingdom and glory” (1 Thess. 2:12; cf. 1 Peter 5:10; 2 Peter 1:3). People who have been called by God “belong to Jesus Christ” (Rom. 1:6). They are called to “be saints” (Rom. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:2), and have come into a realm of peace (1 Cor. 7:15; Col. 3:15), freedom (Gal. 5:13), hope (Eph. 1:18; 4:4), holiness (1 Thess. 4:7), patient endurance of suffering (1 Peter 2:20–21; 3:9), and eternal life (1 Tim. 6:12). These verses indicate that no powerless, merely human calling is in view. This calling is rather a kind of “summons” from the King of the universe and it has such power that it brings about the response that it asks for in people’s hearts. It is an act of God that guarantees a response, because Paul specifies in Romans 8:30 that all who were “called” were also “justified.”1 This calling has the capacity to draw us out of the kingdom of darkness and bring us into God’s kingdom so we can join in full fellowship with him: “God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord” (1 Cor. 1:9).2
This powerful act of God is often referred to as effective calling to distinguish it from the general gospel invitation that goes to all people and which some people reject. This is not to say that human gospel proclamation is not involved. In fact, God’s effective calling comes through the human preaching of the gospel, because Paul says, “To this he called you through our gospel so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ” (2 Thess. 2:14). Of course, there are many who hear the general call of the gospel message and do not respond. But in some cases the gospel call is made so effective by the working of the Holy Spirit in people’s hearts that they do respond; we can say that they have received “effective calling.”
We may define effective calling as follows: Effective calling is an act of God the Father, speaking through the human proclamation of the gospel, in which he summons people to himself in such a way that they respond in saving faith. It is important that we not give the impression that people will be saved by the power of this call apart from their own willing response to the gospel. (For Jack and his only hope) Although it is true that effective calling awakens and brings forth a response from us, we must always insist that this response still has to be a voluntary, willing response in which the individual person puts his or her trust in Christ.
Man aways comes to the point in effective calling that he chooses to follow Christ. That is why it is called effective.
NOW back to the Scripture, Christ words:
John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." …..
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me …
65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
Now if that rubs you and Wayne the wrong way, so be it.
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FOLLOW UP on Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology
On page 680 under objections to the doctrine of election, paragraph 1. Titled: Election means that we do not have a choice in whether we accept Christ or not.
According to this objection the doctrine of election denies all the gospel invitations that appeal to the will of man and asked people to make a choice in whether to respond to Christ invitation or not. In response to this, we must affirm that the doctrine of election is fully able to accommodate the idea that we have a voluntary choice and we make willingly decisions and accepting or rejecting Christ. Our choices are voluntary because they are what we want to do and what we decide to do. This does not mean that our choices are absolutely free because, God can work sovereignly through our desires so that he guarantees it our choice come about as he has ordained, but this can still be understood as a real choice because God has created us and he ordains that such a choice is real. In short, we can say that God causes us to choose Christ voluntarily.
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Now that I know you recognize him as an authority on Calvinism, I'm going to share some of his words on Covenant Theology.
Jack
My take on Covenant Theology AKA 'Replacement theology' July 10, 2012
http://biblediscussion.org/index.php/topic,152.0.html (http://biblediscussion.org/index.php/topic,152.0.html)
Reply #8
Hello everyone 
Hello
Paul seem to know this debate would come up and he addressed it in Roman 11. He makes it clear that the roots of the Church are Judaism and that gentiles will receive their salvation because they have been grafted to and are feed by that root.
He gives a warning:
17 Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, though a wild olive branch, were grafted in among them and have come to share in the rich root of the cultivated olive tree, 18 do not brag that you are better than those branches. But if you do brag—you do not sustain the root, but the root sustains you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 True enough; they were broken off by unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either. 22 Therefore, consider God’s kindness and severity: severity toward those who have fallen but God’s kindness toward you—if you remain in His kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, because God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from your native wild olive and against nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these—the natural branches—be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 So that you will not be conceited, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery: A partial hardening has come to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
The Liberator will come from Zion;
He will turn away godlessness from Jacob.
27
And this will be My covenant with them
when I take away their sins.
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Fat,
Do you agree?
Predestination means you have no free will. Furthermore, with no free will, you have no choice.
On the the other hand:
If you have a choice, that means you have free will, therefore, if you have free will; you are not predestinated.
Now only one of these can be true. And you Fat, believe it's predestination.
Did I get that right?
Jack
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Fat,
Do you agree?
Predestination means you have no free will. Furthermore, with no free will, you have no choice.
On the the other hand:
If you have a choice, that means you have free will, therefore, if you have free will; you are not predestinated.
Now only one of these can be true. And you Fat, believe it's predestination.
Did I get that right?
Jack
What's the matter here Jack, are your filters getting clogged? You been taught to put everybody in a box, this is akin to putting every person in the box because of their race.
See Reply #51, Grudem says it well. Man's problem is that on his own he makes the wrong choice. (Genesis 3)
From post 7 So what did Christ say about our ability to make the right choice?
Now you had a point to make on Grudem and Replacement theology? And you were goiung to tell us what John 6 really says.
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Fat,
I'm going to explain what happened in the Garden of Eden, and how that applies to us today. Furthermore, I will explain (for the purpose of other viewers) why predestination actually makes God a, 'not so nice person'. On the other hand, I will show that when mankind is truly given the choice whether or not to be saved; it is no longer God condemning the souls of individuals, (as in predestination)) but individuals condemn their own souls, by rejecting Jesus Christ.
Let's begin!
Who is God? God is truly greater than words can tell, greater than the human mind can comprehend. His strength is without measure, His knowledge more than can be put into print. His wisdom greater than all the created beings combined. He lives in the eternal state, which alone is beyond comprehension. He created time, and one day will bring it to its close.
I cannot emphasize two things enough: 1) God not only knows everything (general knowledge such as science, but knows our thoughts, what we have done, what we are doing, but He also knows every choice we will make about everything; great or small. 2) God uses this knowledge (of our future decisions) to provide us with an opportunity to make the right decision in the event that we make a wrong decision.
For example, God told Jonah to go to Nineveh; Jonah chose not to obey, and went in a different direction. However, since God already knew what choice Jonah was going to make, He prepared a fish (whale) to provide Jonah with an environment that would give Jonah an opportunity to rethink his choice. Jonah now had to make a choice: 1) Repent (change his mind about going to Nineveh); or 2) Refuse to repent, and be a yummy meal for the fish. God had a purpose for Jonah; preach to Nineveh. He also used this story for a second purpose; to show all who read this story for generations to come, God will provide us with "opportunities" to fulfill His purpose, and it is always easier (on us) if we obey God sooner, rather than later. Please understand, God knowing what Jonah was going to do both times, is not to be confused with God forcing, or predestinating Jonah to make those decisions. The one (foreknowledge) is God influencing Jonah to make the right decision through a provided circumstance; while the other (predestination) is forcing BOTH of Jonah's decisions, because Jonah had no choice but to act in the fore ordained way that God directed, good or bad.
Let's look at the beginning.
God created the universe in six days, and rested on the seventh day. On Earth, He planted a Garden named Eden, the place where Adam and Eve would live.
Gen. 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
According to the above text there were two trees in the midst of the Garden; the tree of life, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Gen. 2
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Gen. 3
1. Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2. And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3. But of the fruit of the tree whichis in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5. For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Here is where we are:
Adam and Eve are in the Garden of Eden. They DO NOT have a sin nature. They have been presented two conflicting 'stories' of what will happen if they eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil: 1) God says, You eat it, you die. 2) Satan says, You eat it, you will not die; and, your eyes will be opened!
One of them is telling the truth, and one of them is lying. It's just that simple. Adam must choose. Eve must choose.
Do I obey God, or do I not obey God; that was not only the question that Adam and Eve faced, it is the one we must face. God has given us His Word, the Bible. Within its pages we find the history of Earth, along with the Commandments of God. We also find the consequences of both obedience, and disobedience of His Commandments.
Like Adam, we are presented with God's side of the story, (found in His Word, the Bible); and Satan's side of the story, found in the "sin nature" (the knowledge of good and evil) we inherited from Adam's "wrong" decision. Adam was created innocent, as we are (although we are born with the "nature" to sin. Adam was innocent until he chose to disobey God. We as children grow up learning through our conscience "good and evil". (We know [even as a child] that it's wrong to steal cookies from the cookie jar, and then lie about it.) As Adam condemned himself when he chose not to obey the Commandant of God, we likewise condemn ourselves when we choose not to obey the Commandments of God written on our hearts (the knowledge of good and evil) that speak to us through our conscience.
Even Wayne Grudem, (a Calvinist) who is a Theologian and Professor of Biblical Studies at Phoenix Seminary states in his "Systematic Theology" under the heading of "The Covenant of Works" (which in its entirety, is too long to post) , "God sovereignly imposes this covenant on Adam and Eve, and they have no opportunity to change the details—their only choice is to keep it or to break it."
The problem of course with Calvinism however is their definition of "choice". You see, at another place, under the heading of "objections to the doctrine of election", paragraph 1. Titled: Election means that we do not have a choice in whether we accept Christ or not.
"According to this objection the doctrine of election denies all the gospel invitations that appeal to the will of man and asked people to make a choice in whether to respond to Christ invitation or not. In response to this, we must affirm that the doctrine of election is fully able to accommodate the idea that we have a voluntary choice and we make willingly decisions and accepting or rejecting Christ. Our choices are voluntary because they are what we want to do and what we decide to do. This does not mean that our choices are absolutely free because, God can work sovereignly through our desires so that he guarantees it our choice come about as he has ordained, but this can still be understood as a real choice because God has created us and he ordains that such a choice is real. In short, we can say that God causes us to choose Christ voluntarily."
I'm sorry Fat, either the choice is "absolutely free", or it's absolutely "not free", you can't have your cake, and eat it too"!
John 6: 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up the last day.
John 12:
30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31 Now is the judgement of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
John 3
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Numbers 21
8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
Notice that Jesus compared the "lifting up" of the brazen serpent with Himself being "lifted up". Just as "any man" lived physically when he beheld the serpent; "whosoever" believeth on Jesus as Saviour when He was "lifted up", "should not perish, but have eternal life".
It doesn't sound like Jesus was talking about the "elect", it sounded like He said, "whosoever"!
Adam had a choice in the Garden of Eden;
The people had a choice in the wilderness; and,
We have a choice today!
2 Peter 3: 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Choose Jesus today!
Jack
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" This does not mean that our choices are absolutely free because, God can work sovereignly through our desires so that he guarantees it our choice come about as he has ordained, but this can still be understood as a real choice because God has created us and he ordains that such a choice is real. In short, we can say that God causes us to choose Christ voluntarily."
I forgot to mention, since Adam (in the Garden of Eden) really had no choice, (according to the above quote) and God "guaranteed" Adam's choice was what He "ordained"; it is not Adam's choice that condemned mankind, it was God's choice, because He "caused" Adam to make the choice he made.
That is what Predestination really is.
Jack
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" This does not mean that our choices are absolutely free because, God can work sovereignly through our desires so that he guarantees it our choice come about as he has ordained, but this can still be understood as a real choice because God has created us and he ordains that such a choice is real. In short, we can say that God causes us to choose Christ voluntarily."
I forgot to mention, since Adam (in the Garden of Eden) really had no choice, (according to the above quote) and God "guaranteed" Adam's choice was what He "ordained"; it is not Adam's choice that condemned mankind, it was God's choice, because He "caused" Adam to make the choice he made.
That is what Predestination really is.
Jack
What choice did Jonah eventually make?
The choice to sin is that of man's.
The choice of salvation is God's.
Do you know what Hyper-Calvinism is? It is a cult that teaches fatalism.
If you're not aware of this cult you should check with your professor and ask him to explain the difference between mainstream Calvinism, and the cult referred to as hyper Calvinist. If he cannot explain the difference between the two then you have been cheated in your education. There are very few Hyper-Calvinism churches in America, they are not a biblical church.
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Jack,
You had a point to make on Grudem and Replacement theology? And you were goiung to tell us what John 6 really says.
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Fat,
Are you literate?
Please post where I said something about "replacement theology".
You make up things I haven't said, while ignoring what I did say.
Jack
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Fat,
Are you literate?
Please post where I said something about "replacement theology".
You make up things I haven't said, while ignoring what I did say.
Jack
Now that I know you recognize him as an authority on Calvinism, I'm going to share some of his words on Covenant Theology.
Jack
Covenant theology is often referred to as "supersessionism," or "replacement theology" by its detractors, due to the perception that it teaches that God has abandoned the promises made to the Jews and has replaced the Jews with Christians as his chosen people in the earth. Covenant theologians deny that God has abandoned his promises to Israel, but see the fulfillment of the promises to Israel in the person and the work of the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth, who established the church in organic continuity with Israel, not a separate replacement entity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant_theology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant_theology)
I am sorry Jack but I think you are done here. Please move on, thank you.
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Fat,
John 6: 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up the last day.
John 12:
30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31 Now is the judgement of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
John 3
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of eternal life.
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Numbers 21
8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
Notice that Jesus compared the "lifting up" of the brazen serpent with Himself being "lifted up". Just as "any man" lived physically when he beheld the serpent; "whosoever" believeth on Jesus as Saviour when He was "lifted up", "should not perish, but have eternal life".
Let me spell it out for you:
John 3
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Notice, "even so must the Son of man be lifted up" and why must He be lifted up? Verse 15 "That WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life".
John 6: 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up the last day.
John 12:
30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31 Now is the judgement of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
Jesus had to be lifted up to DRAW ALL MEN
It says WHOSOEVER and ALL, not all of the "elect", not whosoever of the "elect"; JUST "WHOSOEVER" and "ALL".
Stop trying to make the "WHOSOEVER" and "ALL" go away, it won't work.
Jack
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One problem in numbers 21 there is no indication that all that were bitten by the serpent look at the bronze image. It is very clear even as you stated this was a test of belief.
Numbers 21:6 The LORD sent fiery serpents among the people and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. 7 So the people came to Moses and said, "We have sinned, because we have spoken against the LORD and you; intercede with the LORD, that He may remove the serpents from us." And Moses interceded for the people. 8 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard ; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live." 9 And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard ; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.
Some translations use the word and to show that not all looked at it and not all were saved.
9 Therefore Moses made a serpent of brass, and setted (it) in a perch; and (those) men (who were) hurt, and beholding it, were healed. (And so Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it up on a pole; and those who were bitten, and looked at it, were healed.)
9 And Moses maketh a serpent of brass, and setteth it on the ensign, and it hath been, if the serpent hath bitten any man, and he hath looked expectingly unto the serpent of brass -- he hath lived.
9 So Moses made a bronze snake. He put it up on a pole. Then anyone who was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake remained alive.
For John 12 scripture I ask that you consider it in context.
John 12
30 Jesus answered and said, "This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes. 31 "Now judgment is upon this world ; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." 33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die. 34 The crowd then answered Him, "We have heard out of the Law that the Christ is to remain forever ; and how can You say, 'The Son of Man must be lifted up'? Who is this Son of Man ?" 35 So Jesus said to them, "For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes. 36 "While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light." These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them. 37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke : "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT ? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED ?" 39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40 "HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM"
Your interpretation of does not jive with the rest of the text. What is the relationship of those who believed and those that could not believe?
Calvinist believe there are two types of Calling by God.
External Call
Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.
Internal Call
Romans 8:30
Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.
When you preached the gospel of repentance (Luke 24:47) to your Marines they receive External Call (if they had not already heard the gospel). That was not enough and never is. Repentance is part of receiving the call (Internal Call) and that takes a convection of their sins and can only come from the Holy Spirit.
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me brings him. Then I will raise him up on the last day.
65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
Can you resolve Matthew 22:14 with Romans 8:30 and John 6:65?
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Fat,
Just three quick notes before I go to work on another project for a while.
1) If you actually read the entire story of the 'firey serpents' in Numbers 21, you will notice that the ONLY REASON Moses made, and lifted up the "brazen" serpent, was to address THE PEOPLE WHO WERE DYING BECAUSE THEY WERE BITTEN. if you weren't bitten, you didn't have to look. The point of the Jesus bringing up the "brazen" serpent was because He had to be lifted up in the same manner, and, it was the dying people that had to look and live. Today it is NO DIFFERENT, the DYING PEOPLE need to look and live.
2) i always find it interesting when people have to "find a version" of the Bible to meet there beliefs. Pick a Bible that you believe is correct, and stick with it. (I do, and it works great.)
3) You stated, "Calvinist believe" ..... Keep in mind, just because you believe what you believe, doesn't mean there are not other beliefs.
Jack
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Jack
Is it your intent to say that everybody that was bitten by the serpent did look at the bronze statue? Other than that I am not disagreeing with that statement.
Also something that may be worth considering is that God sent to those serpents to bring the people into repentance.
I don't like shopping translations either but I'm trying to make a visual point there is nothing in this text that says all were saved. The traffic lights were installed so that when everyone stops on the red light there will be no accidents. Does that mean everyone stops for the red light?
You stated, "Calvinist believe" ..... Keep in mind, just because you believe what you believe, doesn't mean there are not other beliefs.
Calvinists disagree in many areas amongst themselves, but I doubt if you can refine too much disagreement on this point. I would like to know your thoughts on the matter of Matthew 22:14 and Romans 8:30, external and internal calling.
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Fat,
I do not believe all were saved, but those who chose to look at the brazen serpent after they were bitten, did live. Key word, "chose".
Jack
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Can you resolve Matthew 22:14 with Romans 8:30 and John 6:65?
Well Fat,
You are always talking about how I take things out of context. So let's take a look at Matthew 22:14 all by its self.
Matthew 22: 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Yes, that looks pretty persuasive, doesn't it? But what happens when we see the verses that led up to these words of Christ?
Matthew 22
1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Here is the story:
A king is about to have a marriage for his son. (vs. 2)
So he sends his servants to “to call them that were bidden to the wedding”. I want you to see why they did not come. “and they would not come.”
Notice, they were called, the father (the king) wanted them to come. That is why he called them. BUT
“they would not come”. This was not the choice of the king, this was the choice of the people who were “called”. This was not an 'external call', this was a call to a wedding that the king wanted them to attend (as in get here right now!). (vs. 3)
By this time the king is ready to plead with those were “called”. So, “he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.” I want you to understand, what the king (father) is doing. He is pleading with those who have already been called prior to the wedding (notice the word “were” called in verse 2, this shows that the father had already invited (or called) those people to his son's wedding and the purpose of sending out the servants in verse 2 was because they hadn't shown up at the appointed time. Hence, the father sends out servants to remind them (if you would) that the time of the wedding is at hand. However, they “would not come”. So now in verse 4 the father is telling those who “were called” and “would not come”, all the trouble he has gone through to have this wedding for his son. (vs 4)
However, “But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:”
What does this mean? It means THEY CHOSE to not only not go, BUT, “they made light of it”. Do you think maybe the servants of the king were getting a little stressed? They were pleading on behalf of the king (father), and were getting nowhere! But that isn't all! They started taking off, “and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:” , (vs.5) and the “called” took it to a whole new level!
You would think that would be enough, but no, not yet. “And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.” The rest of the “called” (the ones that were 1) initially “called” before the wedding; 2) “called” at the time the wedding was at hand; and 3) were now “called” a third time [do you think the father wanted them at the wedding? Maybe, just a little?]) now take the father's servants treat them bad, and then kill them. (vs. 6)
Wouldn't you know, the father finds out, and he is upset. After all that he went through, these people he had “called”, not only didn't come to his son's wedding, but they killed the servants that had invited them three times. So what does the king do?
“But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.”
This king (father) had expected these guests who were “called” to show up at his son's wedding. He wanted them to show up at his son's wedding. He “called” them three times to come to his son's wedding, and they “would not come”. Now in case you didn't get this yet, they chose not to come. The father did not predestinate them to not come. They chose to not come. They also chose to mistreat, and kill his servants. That is why the father gets “wroth”, and “destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.” They made some real bad choices, and ended up paying the consequences. (vs. 7)
We now see the father's attitude toward those that, 1) were “called”; 2) “would not come”; and 3) killed his servants. “Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.” What does this mean? “They which were bidden were not worthy”. Quite simply, the father had graciously invited these people to his son's wedding; but because they “chose” not to accept his gracious “call”, they were not worthy. Had they “chose” to answer the gracious “call”, he would have considered them worthy of his blessing. Their loss. (vs. 8)
The father's son is still getting married. So the father takes action: “Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.” Please understand, even though the people that were 'initially' “called” decided not to come, that doesn't stop the wedding. The father will simply “bid” others to the wedding. “Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.” This is definitely not “predestination”! (as taught by Calvinists) The father sends out his servants into the highways for what? To “bid”, “as many as ye shall find”. Let me make this clear.
The servants now run out into the highways, and “bid” “as many as ye shall find” to the marriage. But guess what? Those “bidden” still have a “choice”! These are definitely not predestinated either. (vs. 9)
So what happens? “So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.” The wedding is now furnished with guests. But notice who is there: “both bad and good”. This shows that not everyone that desires to come to the wedding is good. A bit more on that in a moment. (vs. 10)
I want you to understand that before a person is allowed into the actual wedding area, he must have on the proper “garment” or attire (clothing), after all, this is the son of the king! But as the father is looking at the guests, he notices something: “And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:”. So why didn't he have on a wedding garment? May I kindly say that desire to be saved, doesn't get you saved. Going to church, doesn't get you saved. When we are “called” by the father to be saved, we must understand that we DO NOT MAKE THE RULES. There are many who have every desire to go to Heaven, but are not willing to accept the righteousness of Christ. They think they can make it by their own righteousness, however they are wrong.
Here in this parable, the man without a wedding garment, doesn't have the righteousness of Christ, he thought he would be okay on his own. (vs. 11)
Now, the man without the wedding garment, must give an answer. “And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.” Note the compassion with which the father questions: “Friend”. 2 Peter 3:9 “ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” The Father has no desire to send anyone to Hell, but, when we refuse to repent, and put on the righteousness of Christ, He has no choice. Likewise, this man came without the correct garment, with no excuse. (“he was speechless”.) (vs. 12)
Because the man “chose” not to put on the “wedding garment”, he too was unworthy. It is not enough to answer the “call” to come to the wedding, we must enter the wedding in the right “garment”, the righteousness of Christ. “Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Without the righteousness of Christ, we cannot be acceptable to the Father. The only answer at that point, is the Lake of Fire. Notice: nothing in this parable gives any hint whatsoever to the “predestination” taught by Calvinism. The only thing this teaches, and defines is salvation by “choosing” to answer the “call”, and be willing to accept the “wedding garment” provided by the Father. (vs. 13)
And now we come to the verse that has all the attention.
Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
When we look at the story above, we must ask the question, “Who are the people that actually made it into the wedding”? I think the answer is quite clear by the unfolding of the details of the story. First, each person that made it into the wedding had to be “called”. Second, they had to “choose” to answer the “call” by saying, “Yes, I'll go”. Third, they had accept to dress in the “wedding garment” to actually enter the wedding. So the definition of those who made it into the wedding are those that “heard the call”, “answered the call”, and “were willing to accept to wear the wedding garment”. This almost sounds like Calvinism doesn't it? But, it's not, look again.
Every single person mentioned, other than the servants, heard the call. With the exception of the man that refused to wear the wedding garment, the people that actually made it into the wedding, were the people that “chose” to take the gracious “call” of the father. Additionally, because they realized that this was a gracious “call” (one they did not deserve), they also accepted the wedding garments. They knew their “garments” were not sufficient to enter in. Hence, the people that made it into the wedding, “chose” to answer a gracious “call”, and “chose” to wear the proper “garment”.
While the father in the parable did not know who would, and wouldn't answer the call, and come to the wedding, the Heavenly Father did. Hence, Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
God the Father (because He is God) “foreknew” all those that would answer the call, and accept the proper wedding garment. Hence, He predestinated these people (who would be like those in the parable, that made it into the wedding) to be conformed to the image of His Son. This does not mean He predestinated them to “chose” Him, it means that He knew who would choose Him. The entire basis for verse 30 are the words “For whom he did foreknow” in verse 29.
Finally, John 6: 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
This is another one of those verses like Matthew 22:14, by itself it looks like the Calvinists may have something. But look back just one verse, and my how things change.
John 6: 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Look at those words, “For Jesus knew from the beginning”. Is this beginning to look familiar? How did He know? Because He is God. John 10:30 “I and my Father are one.” Jesus and the Father are one. Jesus knew from the beginning. He did not make people “choose” to believe, or not believe, but, He did know who would, and who wouldn't.
John 6: 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Remember Matthew 22? It was the father that sent out the call, it was the father that provided the wedding garment, but it was the people that make the choices.
I truly understand that it is the grace of the Father (which we do not deserve) that sends out the call, without which we could have no salvation. But God our Heavenly Father, leaves it to us to answer the the call, and accept the wedding garment.
I have been accused of taking scripture out of context a number of times in this thread, but I ask those who have been following along, isn't that what just happened with the question, “Can you resolve Matthew 22:14 with Romans 8:30 and John 6:65?”
Jack
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I have been accused of taking scripture out of context a number of times in this thread, but I ask those who have been following along, isn't that what just happened with the question, “Can you resolve Matthew 22:14 with Romans 8:30 and John 6:65?”
Matthew 22:14 is a conclusion of the parable.
This is from John Wesley the Arminian
22:1
Jesus answering, spake - That is, spake with reference to what had just past.
22:2
A king, who made a marriage feast for his son - So did God, when he brought his first - begotten into the world.
22:3
Them that were invited - Namely, the Jews.
22:4
Fatlings - Fatted beasts and fowls.
22:5
One to his farm, another to his merchandise - One must mind what he has; another, gain what he wants. How many perish by misusing lawful things!
22:7
The king sending forth his troops - The Roman armies employed of God for that purpose. Destroyed those murderers - Primarily the Jews.
22:8
Go into the highways - The word properly signifies, the by - ways, or turnings of the road.
22:10
They gathered all - By preaching every where.
22:11
The guest - The members of the visible Church.
22:12
A wedding garment - The righteousness of Christ, first imputed, then implanted. It may easily be observed, this has no relation to the Lord's Supper, but to God's proceeding at the last day.
22:14
Many are called; few chosen - Many hear; few believe. Yea, many are members of the visible, but few of the invisible Church.
Note that even Wesley says that the few that believe are the CHOSEN.
You did it again Jack! You stopped short.
64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want (CHOOSE) to go away also, do you?" 68 Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go ? You have words of eternal life. 69 "We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God." 70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil ?" 71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.
I think most the readers will conclude that both Matthew 22 and John 6 teach of an inward calling and external calling.
Actually when you look at this it is a perfect example of the two types of callings, a general calling and an effective calling. We don't know how many disciples left only that it was many, but we do know the 12 the Christ had chosen stayed with Christ. And we also see that these 12 were the only ones that Christ himself had chosen. We are also reminded that Christ chose Judas to betray him.
Have a nice week end Jack.
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Fat,
I do not believe all were saved, but those who chose to look at the brazen serpent after they were bitten, did live. Key word, "chose".
Jack
Now that is totally insane Jack, why would one who believed not want to look upon the brazen serpent so that he may live? So obviously the ones that looked upon the serpent were the ones that believed, this was an act of faith. Those that did not look died because they had no faith, and without faith it is impossible to please Him.( Hebrews 11:6 )
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Now that is totally insane Jack, why would one who believed not want to look upon the brazen serpent so that he may live? So obviously the ones that looked upon the serpent were the ones that believed, this was an act of faith. Those that did not look died because they had no faith, and without faith it is impossible to please Him.( Hebrews 11:6 )
First of all, the reason for the serpents was because the people were murmuring. God said, to live, they had to look. Yes indeed, it took faith. It took faith that brought about action. If faith does cause action, it is worthless.
Jack
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First of all, the reason for the serpents was because the people were murmuring. God said, to live, they had to look. Yes indeed, it took faith. It took faith that brought about action. If faith does cause action, it is worthless.
Jack
First of all I believe you meant to say if faith does not cause action it is worthless, James message.
I do not like to leave post unanswered that may mislead the casual reader. The reason God sent the serpent plague upon the Jews was to bring them to repentance, which it did. And as you pointed out the bronze serpent was held up as their salvation. The fiery serpents sent to plague the Jews was a general call for all the Jews to repent, they did not. But for those who did repent God gave them, by his saving grace, life. This story really has nothing to do with the subject of predestination or effect of calling. There were those in the camps that believed and there were those in the camps that did not believe. WHY< HOW COULD ANT OF THEM NOT BELIEVE AFTER ALL THEY HAD BEEN THROUGH? And I repeat myself this was a test of faith (believing). The question of predestination is about how those who believe came to believe.
Numbers 21:7 So the people came to Moses and said, "We have sinned, because we have spoken against the LORD and you; intercede with the LORD, that He may remove the serpents from us."
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Fat,
I am going to address (in a little more detail), the "external" and "internal" call. However, since I have come to the realization that your particular view of Calvinism differs from others:
JN Horn posted:
"I am continually amazed in the number of people that believe replacement theology is the same as covenant theology."
You posted:
"Covenant theology is often referred to as "supersessionism," or "replacement theology" by its detractors, due to the perception that it teaches that God has abandoned the promises made to the Jews and has replaced the Jews with Christians as his chosen people in the earth. Covenant theologians deny that God has abandoned his promises to Israel, but see the fulfillment of the promises to Israel in the person and the work of the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth, who established the church in organic continuity with Israel, not a separate replacement entity."
You also posted:
"This is from John Wesley the Arminian"
Why you would use the words of an Arminian to support calvinism is beyond me.
I would like you to explain how the internal call takes place. This way I can answer your points directly, without you telling me I'm not addressing your 'sect' of Calvinism.
Jack
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Fat,
I am going to address (in a little more detail), the "external" and "internal" call. However, since I have come to the realization that your particular view of Calvinism differs from others:
JN Horn posted:
"I am continually amazed in the number of people that believe replacement theology is the same as covenant theology."
You posted:
"Covenant theology is often referred to as "supersessionism," or "replacement theology" by its detractors, due to the perception that it teaches that God has abandoned the promises made to the Jews and has replaced the Jews with Christians as his chosen people in the earth. Covenant theologians deny that God has abandoned his promises to Israel, but see the fulfillment of the promises to Israel in the person and the work of the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth, who established the church in organic continuity with Israel, not a separate replacement entity."
You also posted:
"This is from John Wesley the Arminian"
Why you would use the words of an Arminian to support calvinism is beyond me.
I would like you to explain how the internal call takes place. This way I can answer your points directly, without you telling me I'm not addressing your 'sect' of Calvinism.
Jack
I'm posting from my phone so please excuse me Jack if it gets a little messy.
I can't answer for JB.
You can follow the link to the quote I posted on covenant theology .
You yourself have experienced the internal calling of the Holy Ghost. Remember that time when you were convicted of your sins and you realize that you needed to change your life and asked for the grace that Christ was offering you? At that time your life you could've no more said no to Christ then you could fly by flapping your arms, but you did have that choice. The extreme biblical example of effective calling was Paul on the road to Damascus.
You can look around in your church and see those that have received the external: not internal calling. I'm sure that you are aware that many of the people in your church who come every Sunday and participate are not saved. You see all over the world where people have heard the gospel and denied it.
Why you would use the words of an Arminian to support calvinism is beyond me.
Wesley was not a bad man even Spurgeons praised him. After all even the broken clock is right twice a day.
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Phat
Look at the calling of Matthews I think is as extreme as that of Paul. A rich wealthy tax collector loved by the Romans and hated by the Jews.
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Fat,
I would refer to your reference of "Wikipedia", except for the facts that: 1) The material in "Wikipedia" hardly give enough information to teach a "Calvinism 101" course; and 2) With language such as "some Calvinists believe" being used repetitiously, it is not suitable to use as a proper reference.
You stated:
"You yourself have experienced the internal calling of the Holy Ghost. Remember that time when you were convicted of your sins and you realize that you needed to change your life and asked for the grace that Christ was offering you? At that time your life you could've no more said no to Christ then you could fly by flapping your arms, but you did have that choice. The extreme biblical example of effective calling was Paul on the road to Damascus."
You just said a lot of things; so please allow me to 'break' this into smaller pieces.
1) "You yourself have experienced the internal calling of the Holy Ghost. "
I'm pleased to know that you believe that I have received the "internal" call of the Father, which would mean (according to you), that I am part of the "elect".
2) "Remember that time when you were convicted of your sins and you realize that you needed to change your life and asked for the grace that Christ was offering you?"
We really need to break this down even further.
A. "Remember that time when you were convicted of your sins ..."?
B. "and you realize that you needed to change your life ..."
C. "And asked for the grace that Christ was offering you?"
3) "At that time your life you could've no more said no to Christ then you could fly by flapping your arms, but you did have that choice."
A. "At that time your life you could've no more said no to Christ then you could fly by flapping your arms,"
B. "but you did have that choice."
4) "The extreme biblical example of effective calling was Paul on the road to Damascus."
Fat, what you are now getting into is the letter "I" in T.U.L.I.P.; Irresistible Grace. The only problem with your presentation is sentence 3), B. above: "but you did have that choice." (There are more "doctrinal issues", but in your actual presentation of Predestination, this is a problem.)
Your entire argument supporting predestination is that we don't have a choice (in case you weren't aware, that is the meaning of having a "free will".)
You just stated that I "did have that choice".
In sentence 3) A. "At that time your life you could've no more said no to Christ then you could fly by flapping your arms," you are saying I did not have the ability to say, "No"; but then say I had a choice in the same complete sentence.
All this time you have been saying, I had NO CHOICE; now, you just said, (about me), "but you did have that choice".
Jack
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>>>>I would refer to your reference of "Wikipedia", except for the facts that: 1) The material in "Wikipedia" hardly give enough information to teach a "Calvinism 101" course; and 2) With language such as "some Calvinists believe" being used repetitiously, it is not suitable to use as a proper reference.
<<<<<
I'm going to do your research for you Jack, sorry.
>>>>>I'm pleased to know that you believe that I have received the "internal" call of the Father, which would mean (according to you), that I am part of the "elect". <<<<
Absolutely, did you believe the Calvinist considered Armenians not saved? Our debate is how you and I got to where we are, it is not a debate on the fact that we arrived.
>>>>>>Your entire argument supporting predestination is that we don't have a choice (in case you weren't aware, that is the meaning of having a "free will".)
You just stated that I "did have that choice".
In sentence 3) A. "At that time your life you could've no more said no to Christ then you could fly by flapping your arms," you are saying I did not have the ability to say, "No"; but then say I had a choice in the same complete sentence.
All this time you have been saying, I had NO CHOICE; now, you just said, (about me), "but you did have that choice".<<<<<<
This is where your boxes and your filters are really clouding your mind. When did I say you had no choice? What I'm saying to you is that without the help of the Holy Spirit your choice would be to stay in the flesh. I tried to tell you that Adam had a choice and he chose the world. That is the nature of man, he will choose the world over a commitment to Christ. Another thing you don't seem to understand is that just because a person says a magic prayer that he believes in Christ that he is going to receive salvation. Salvation does not come until there is repentance and there is no repentance without the Holy Spirit. (2 Corinthians 7:9-10, 2 Timothy 2:25 )
What is your definition of repentance?
We've had a few posters on this board that believe repentance is not necessary for salvation. Are you one of those?
What's really hard for me to understand is how Arminianism teaches that a man on his own can become so righteous that he can defeat Satan without the help of the Holy Spirit. That he can be so righteous that on his own he can go out and seek God. (Romans 3:9-11)
The righteousness does not come before salvation but after.
Romans 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe ; for there is no distinction
Rom 8
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow , he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate , them he also called : and whom he called , them he also justified : and whom he justified, them he also glorified
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Fat,
You stated, "This is where your boxes and your filters are really clouding your mind. When did I say you had no choice? What I'm saying to you is that without the help of the Holy Spirit your choice would be to stay in the flesh. I tried to tell you that Adam had a choice and he chose the world. That is the nature of man, he will choose the world over a commitment to Christ. Another thing you don't seem to understand is that just because a person says a magic prayer that he believes in Christ that he is going to receive salvation. Salvation does not come until there is repentance and there is no repentance without the Holy Spirit. (2 Corinthians 7:9-10, 2 Timothy 2:25 )"
On my thread, "Is there a better way"?, you stated, "So you failed to influence them, and if you would not have failed they may be alive today. If only you could have said the right words. That's so sad, how can you sleep at night."
You also stated, "Jack if they, your jar-heads, had free will then your compassion has nothing to do with the fact that you failed to influence their will (free choice). Your choice of Scripture about compassion do not address your failure."
You were contending that if those Marines had a free will, I failed to influence their will (free choice).
Notice these verses:
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Sin entered I to the world the moment Adam made the wrong choice. Since that time "death by sin" passed upon all men.
The Marines of which I spoke had "death" passed on them because of the sin of Adam, agreed? The first question I have for you is this; would you agree that when I gave those two Marines the gospel, "elect", or not, they received what you as a Calvinist refer to as the "external call"?
Jack
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On my thread, "Is there a better way"?, you stated, "So you failed to influence them, and if you would not have failed they may be alive today. If only you could have said the right words. That's so sad, how can you sleep at night."
You also stated, "Jack if they, your jar-heads, had free will then your compassion has nothing to do with the fact that you failed to influence their will (free choice). Your choice of Scripture about compassion do not address your failure."
You were contending that if those Marines had a free will, I failed to influence their will (free choice).
Sorry if it's not clear Jack, I'm speaking as you would defined arminianism free will. If you believe what you tell me you believe, you must believe that you failed to convince them to make the right choice.
Again I steer you to my post 7
Hello Jack.
I am a Calvinist, I hear it said by many people that Calvinists do not believe that people have the choice in their own salvation. This is not the way it goes, we believe that man is so depraved that without the help of the Holy Spirit he would never make that decision for salvation. We also believe, as Paul, that faith which is necessary for salvation comes from the hearing of the gospel.
In other words Jack, in my world you did not fail because at work is done by the Holy Spirit. But in your world you must have failed because they were not convinced by you to make the right choice.
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Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Sin entered I to the world the moment Adam made the wrong choice. Since that time "death by sin" passed upon all men.
The Marines of which I spoke had "death" passed on them because of the sin of Adam, agreed? The first question I have for you is this; would you agree that when I gave those two Marines the gospel, "elect", or not, they received what you as a Calvinist refer to as the "external call"?
Jack
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Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Sin entered I to the world the moment Adam made the wrong choice. Since that time "death by sin" passed upon all men.
The Marines of which I spoke had "death" passed on them because of the sin of Adam, agreed? (NO! Romans 3:23 For all have sinned , and come short of the glory of God;) The first question I have for you is this; would you agree that when I gave those two Marines the gospel, "elect", or not, they received what you as a Calvinist refer to as the "external call"?
Jack
If you preached the gospel of repentance, Yes.
Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Mark 1:14 Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, 15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand ; repent and believe in the gospel."
Luke 24:46 and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted , that your sins may be blotted out , when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
And how do we get to REPENTACE?
Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
What is your definition of repentance? Could your Marines repent for the sin of Adam?
Please don't blow off this question Jack.
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Fat,
You really need to: 1) Read the scriptures presented; and 2) Read the question presented.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
This verse says four things:
1) by one man sin entered the world
2 and death by sin (also entered the world)
3) so death passed upon all men (not Adam's death, but the death because of disobedience)
4) for that all have sinned this is the passing of the sin nature, not Adam's "original" sin (as taught by Catholics).
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
This verse simply defines sin (sin is the transgression of the law).
Sin entered I to the world the moment Adam made the wrong choice. Since that time "death by sin" passed upon all men.
The Marines of which I spoke had "death" passed on them because of the sin of Adam, agreed? (The sin nature was passed, not Adam's sin) The first question I have for you is this; would you agree that when I gave those two Marines the gospel, (the death, burial, and bodily resurrection from the dead, and the need to repent, knowing that you are a sinner deserving the wrath of God in everlasting damnation), "elect", or not, they received what you as a Calvinist refer to as the "external call"?
Jack
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Fat,
You really need to: 1) Read the scriptures presented; and 2) Read the question presented.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
This verse says four things:
1) by one man sin entered the world
2 and death by sin (also entered the world)
3) so death passed upon all men (not Adam's death, but the death because of disobedience)
4) for that all have sinned this is the passing of the sin nature, not Adam's "original" sin (as taught by Catholics).
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
This verse simply defines sin (sin is the transgression of the law).
Sin entered I to the world the moment Adam made the wrong choice. Since that time "death by sin" passed upon all men.
The Marines of which I spoke had "death" passed on them because of the sin of Adam, agreed? (The sin nature was passed, not Adam's sin) The first question I have for you is this; would you agree that when I gave those two Marines the gospel, (the death, burial, and bodily resurrection from the dead, and the need to repent, knowing that you are a sinner deserving the wrath of God in everlasting damnation), "elect", or not, they received what you as a Calvinist refer to as the "external call"?
Jack
1You asked me 2 questions and I answered both of them.
2) You have to learn that any verse in the bible can not be exclusive from the rest of the bible.
3) I asked you 2 questions and like a typical Arminian you have no answer for the most simple questions.
Bob I think Jack has run his course here, please lock the thread. It's not a waist however, it points out the problems of Arminianism.
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I could have split the topic for you if you liked but it's your thread. Sorry Phat for being pushy but you guys don't seem to be talking to each other.