Bible discussion
Bible Talk => Sound doctrine => Topic started by: macuser on July 01, 2013, 03:25:54 pm
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There are those that say the word trinity is not in the Bible. Yet most Christians believe in the existence of one God in three forms or persons.
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The word is not found in the bible but, the bible does say the Word is God and Jesus is the Word.
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The word is not found in the bible but, the bible does say the Word is God and Jesus is the Word.
Clark you must read the same Bible I read, but in some of the Bibles it says something different in John 1.
In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. That little gem is from the New World translation.
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john 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
I would say that I do not believe in the trinity but I firmly believe the bible is clear that Jesus was God and it is a concept that no one can really explain perfectly so we call it the trinity to give it a label
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Michaelf
I think that I will try a little logic here. You agree that Christ was God. We also know that Christ was continually calling God His Father. But on the other hand Christ was conceived by the Holy Ghost. How could this be unless They were One? The Son is God and the Spirit is God. :o
Matthew 1:18 NAS
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows : when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.
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Rom 8:10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
To Be a Christian one has to believe that Jesus IS the Christ (Tick)
In his wisdom God chose to describe himself is as "three in One" but we glean it from multiple passages across the bible. However as it was not declared like that by God I do not declare it either.
Are there multiple aspects/persons within the God head - it would appear so yes. Are there only 3 ? It does not say so. three are talked about. Do I understand that? NO. If my understanding differs from the bible then my understanding in faulty. I can live with that. Does God give us a label to define the God head structure - not that I am aware of, No.
If God chose not to declare it is it ok for people to make assumptions and give it a label - Risky and unwise. Is it essential to acknowledge a trinity to be a believer -verse please......No.
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my bad
Rom 10:9 Sorry
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Is it essential to acknowledge a trinity to be a believer -verse please......No.
Is it essential to acknowledge the deity of Christ? I think that is where the rub is when discussing the Trinity. Worshiping one God become becomes very tricky when you break up the Trinity into separate entities.
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Is it essential to acknowledge the deity of Christ? I think that is where the rub is when discussing the Trinity. Worshiping one God become becomes very tricky when you break up the Trinity into separate entities.
Agree it is essential to acknowledge the deity of Christ.
Interestingly I cannot find the HS being worshiped - prayed to - talked to.
Again I acknowledge my understanding is reaching to its limits as to why and then beyond because it does not make sense to me but I can be content in my lack of understanding.
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Is it essential to acknowledge the deity of Christ? I think that is where the rub is when discussing the Trinity. Worshiping one God become becomes very tricky when you break up the Trinity into separate entities.
Agree it is essential to acknowledge the deity of Christ.
Interestingly I cannot find the HS being worshiped - prayed to - talked to.
Again I acknowledge my understanding is reaching to its limits as to why and then beyond because it does not make sense to me but I can be content in my lack of understanding.
Paul spoke of many mysteries in time we will know, be patient :)
Colossians 2
2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
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:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
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There are those that say the word trinity is not in the Bible. Yet most Christians believe in the existence of one God in three forms or persons.
Forms, maybe. The word 'person' means 'individual'; that which cannot be divided, a singularity. To take personal responsibility means that responsibility is not shared with any other. So surely, if people believe in a pantheon of three persons, they are polytheist. To say, "Three persons in one person," or "Three persons are one person," or "Three persons is one person," which is in effect what Trinitarianism states, is gobbledegook. It doesn't even make grammatical sense. Or mathematical sense. No wonder a million priests have called it 'a mystery'! No doubt some evangelicals say that they believe in 'the Trinity', but they have not actually thought about it.
It's actually more of a myth, not a mystery. There are over 700,000 words in the Bible, and not one of them can be translated as 'trinity'; and nowhere is deity said to exist in more than one person. On the contrary:
'"You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."' Isa 44:8 NIV
The nearest word for this purpose one can get from the Bible, OT and NT, translates to something like 'face' or 'presence', and the Greek use, prosopa, or faces, from πρόσωπον, was used even by the false teachers who displaced apostolic teaching by dint of imperial appointment. The Greek word can translate to personas or personae (plural of persona), the Latin form of the Greek now used in English. So one may reasonably talk of the personas of the one deity, in reference to God as Father and Holy Spirit because of atonement, atonement achieved by the Son. All of one person! Jesus claimed to possess all three of them when he commanded the disciples to baptise in the name (singular) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. His emphasis here was not at all on water baptism, but on his own utter and total authority, now his because he had completed atonement. Trinitarians tend to reverse that emphasis, in practice.
So Trinitarianism is ok provided it does not indicate that three discrete, individual beings are all divine. But in practice it very rarely does not do so, imv. It seems to be used by people who favour works justification, and do not savour talk of the gospel. The Christian, otoh, talks about Christ, and his gospel that sets the sinner free, by faith. Jesus, Paul, John, James and Jude, as well as Moses and the prophets, taught 'the whole will of God' without using this word, and its use should therefore be regarded with suspicion.
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'"You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."' Isa 44:8 NIV
Interesting point if there is only one God, and Christ is God then they must be the same.
Fat posted a the thread earlier concerning a similar analogy on our Savior. The Old Testament tells us that there is only one Savior, and that Savior is God. Later on in the New Testament we see that that Savior is Jesus Christ. How could this be unless they are the same?
OT
Isaiah 43:11 NAS
"I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.
Isaiah 45:21 NAS
"Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old ? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD ? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior ; There is none except Me.
NT
Luke 2:11 NAS
for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
Acts 13:23 NAS
"From the descendants of this man, according to promise, God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus,
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Interesting point if there is only one God, and Christ is God then they must be the same.
Fat posted a the thread earlier concerning a similar analogy on our Savior. The Old Testament tells us that there is only one Savior, and that Savior is God. Later on in the New Testament we see that that Savior is Jesus Christ. How could this be unless they are the same?
OT
Isaiah 43:11 NAS
"I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.
Isaiah 45:21 NAS
"Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old ? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD ? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior ; There is none except Me.
NT
Luke 2:11 NAS
for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
Acts 13:23 NAS
"From the descendants of this man, according to promise, God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus,
That's a good piece of exegesis, thank you.
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Question is a belief in the Trinity necessary for salvation?
Can someone accept Christ and receive salvation without believing that he is actually part of a trinity or one God?
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Question is a belief in the Trinity necessary for salvation?
Can someone accept Christ and receive salvation without believing that he is actually part of a trinity or one God?
No to first quest which makes it Yes on part two.
The only real good reason to believe in the Trinity is it makes the rest of the Bible flow without having contradictions. Without believing in the Trinity becomes very hard to make sense of the Scriptures.
Look at what the JW's had to do to their Bible to make it make halfway sense and it still has many contradictions.
That is my humble opinion but I'm sure somebody else has other beliefs. >:(
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If belief in things not said plainly in the bible was a requirement to be a christian them there would be no security in Salvation.
Stick to Jesus is the Christ
His death an Resurrection for payment of Sin
Salvation through faith in Him alone
Repent and Believe
No mention of trinity here
EVERYTHING ELSE is extra(non essential) to that(not that you should ignore everything else but it is not a requirement for salvation)
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Question is a belief in the Trinity necessary for salvation?
Can someone accept Christ and receive salvation without believing that he is actually part of a trinity or one God?
Frank
I agree with JB and Michaelf but I would like to add that after a time of being a Christian and being in His word, you come to understand the deity of Christ. The big mystery that I see is how come some whole denominations can't come to the same conclusion? :-\
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Frank
I agree with JB and Michaelf but I would like to add that after a time of being a Christian and being in His word, you come to understand the deity of Christ.
Or perhaps, having read my explanation, one will have better understood the deity of Christ. One cannot agree with it and agree that trinitarianism assists to understand the Bible! One of the demonic lies of trinitarians is that they present JW Arianism as the only alternative. Of course, it is plainly Satanic as well as unutterably brainless to suggest that the sovereign deity and his many authors all failed to provide a key without which it is very hard to understand the Bible. But then it is surprising how often Satan is driven to apparent idiocy.
The big mystery that I see is how come some whole denominations can't come to the same conclusion? :-\
There is a correlation between those apparent Protestants who accept or even promote the trinitarianism heresy of three persons of deity and those who are reluctant to identify the evils of Romanism, the source of this and many other heresies. For evangelicals who accept this heresy without thought, there are few serious consequences. But in less educated countries, this tritheism permits Jesus to be demoted within the 'Godhead', and even below Mary, Queen of Heaven (who is presumably married to the Father!). By pictorial as well as by verbal means, Jesus is made to seem ineffective, lacking 'all authority'. He is made to seem an other-worldly aesthete, even effeminate; certainly not the plain-speaking, compassionate, practical man of the gospels.
Greed and perversion have their eternal reward.
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Or perhaps, having read my explanation, one will have better understood the deity of Christ. One cannot agree with it and agree that trinitarianism assists to understand the Bible! One of the demonic lies of trinitarians is that they present JW Arianism as the only alternative. Of course, it is plainly Satanic as well as unutterably brainless to suggest that the sovereign deity and his many authors all failed to provide a key without which it is very hard to understand the Bible. But then it is surprising how often Satan is driven to apparent idiocy.
There is a correlation between those apparent Protestants who accept or even promote the trinitarianism heresy of three persons of deity and those who are reluctant to identify the evils of Romanism, the source of this and many other heresies. For evangelicals who accept this heresy without thought, there are few serious consequences. But in less educated countries, this tritheism permits Jesus to be demoted within the 'Godhead', and even below Mary, Queen of Heaven (who is presumably married to the Father!). By pictorial as well as by verbal means, Jesus is made to seem ineffective, lacking 'all authority'. He is made to seem an other-worldly aesthete, even effeminate; certainly not the plain-speaking, compassionate, practical man of the gospels.
Greed and perversion have their eternal reward.
I don't quite understand your definition of the Trinity. Trinitarianism teaches that God is triune.
And of course they can't be separated, for instance Christ continually refers to His Father but Mary conceive Christ by the Holy Ghost. So is Christ's Father the Holy Ghost?
John 1:1 is very clear to me.
So what do you believe Trinitarianism teaches?
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I don't quite understand
What I mean is that people who replace Christ with Mary, i.e. preach works justification, will wish they had not done so. Hindus preach works justification, but they may do so out of ignorance. But nobody can read the Bible, that from the first word is premised on the choice of faith in a christ, or rejection of that christ, and with innocence believe in works justification.
So any who fail to condemn all of those who knowingly deny the perfect atonement of Jesus, and their polytheism, who also thinks that he or she will be accepted by Jesus, is mistaken.
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What I mean is that people who replace Christ with Mary, i.e. preach works justification, will wish they had not done so. Hindus preach works justification, but they may do so out of ignorance. But nobody can read the Bible, that from the first word is premised on the choice of faith in a christ, or rejection of that christ, and with innocence believe in works justification.
So any who fail to condemn all of those who knowingly deny the perfect atonement of Jesus, and their polytheism, who also thinks that he or she will be accepted by Jesus, is mistaken.
Well I certainly can't disagree with you. I don't think you will find many on this forum that worship their own works or pray to the dead.
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Just a small point on the doctrine of the Satanic Trinity, if indeed Jesus was Almighty God incarnate; then at his death at Golgotha, Satan would have taken over immediately and one would not be having this conversation.
• 1879 "and the Word was a god." - Das Evangelium nach Johannes (J. Becker, 1979);
• 1911 "and the Word was a god." - The Coptic Version of the N.T. (G. W. Horner, 1911);
• 1958 "and the Word was a god." - The New Testament of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Anointed" (J. L. Tomanec, 1958);
• 1829 "and the Word was a god." - The Monotessaron; or, The Gospel History According to the Four Evangelists (J. S. Thompson, 1829);
• 1975 "and the Word was a god." - Das Evangelium nach Johannes (S. Schulz, 1975);
• 1975 "and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word" Das Evangelium nach Johnnes, by Siegfried Schulz, Göttingen, Germany
Excerpt from - From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It is an undeniable fact that the Bible got corrupted over time, so our brothers should leave the corrupted Old and New Testaments and come towards the uncorrupted Final Testament – Al Quran.
In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.
Ebrahim Saifuddin — March 3, 2007
To conclude, if Jesus had indeed been Almighty God incarnate, then this would have mad him a combination of two species; thereby rendering him a hybrid mongrel!
Alexander
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A
Just a small point on the doctrine of the Satanic Trinity, if indeed Jesus was Almighty God incarnate; then at his death at Golgotha, Satan would have taken over immediately and one would not be having this conversation.
• 1879 "and the Word was a god." - Das Evangelium nach Johannes (J. Becker, 1979);
• 1911 "and the Word was a god." - The Coptic Version of the N.T. (G. W. Horner, 1911);
• 1958 "and the Word was a god." - The New Testament of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Anointed" (J. L. Tomanec, 1958);
• 1829 "and the Word was a god." - The Monotessaron; or, The Gospel History According to the Four Evangelists (J. S. Thompson, 1829);
• 1975 "and the Word was a god." - Das Evangelium nach Johannes (S. Schulz, 1975);
• 1975 "and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word" Das Evangelium nach Johnnes, by Siegfried Schulz, Göttingen, Germany
Excerpt from - From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It is an undeniable fact that the Bible got corrupted over time, so our brothers should leave the corrupted Old and New Testaments and come towards the uncorrupted Final Testament – Al Quran.
In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.
Ebrahim Saifuddin — March 3, 2007
To conclude, if Jesus had indeed been Almighty God incarnate, then this would have mad him a combination of two species; thereby rendering him a hybrid mongrel!
Alexander
And the bibles that translate this corruption, I know of only one the NWT. (revised AGAIN in 2013)
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This is why I also posted the other translations which actually is a small section of a larger list showing the correct translation according to the original Greek. The foundational teaching of Christendom is the 'Trinity', while the foundational teaching of the Bible is the 'Ransom' without which nothing would be accomplished.
As Al Quran states: "It is an undeniable fact that the Bible got corrupted over time, so our brothers should leave the corrupted Old and New Testaments and come towards the uncorrupted Final Testament."
This corruption of Bible texts and words has been going on now since the Emperor Theodosius I declared that "All those embracing the Trinity, shall henceforth be known as Catholic." while the original movement 'The Way' (Acts 19:9,) was still teaching that Jesus is the 'Son of God' as identified by Peter in Matthew 16:16.
Because people today will not check these things for themselves from the originals, these false doctrines are allowed to continue. If all things were equal, the whole of creation would collapse, creation is not built on 'equality' but 'balance'!
If the Word and Almighty God were both 'equal' then God would cease to be 'Almighty' which means 'without equal'!
In contrast to this to this false Trinitarian claim of equality, the only-begotten Son of God, the first-born of all creation, the Word; “although existing in the spirit form of God; 'never' developed the desire to be equal with God; but transformed himself to become lower than the angels by taking on the form of man.” (Philippians 2:6, 7) NMTCS [correct scripture]
Alexander
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“although existing in the spirit form of God; 'never' developed the desire to be equal with God; but transformed himself to become lower than the angels by taking on the form of man.” (Philippians 2:6, 7) NMTC
S
I'm sorry Alex but you own chosen scriptures confirm the Trinity.
who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
as something to be used for His own advantage.
Instead He emptied Himself
by assuming the form of a slave,
taking on the likeness of men.
And when He had come as a man
in His external form, (HCS)
The real problem you are going to run into is explaining why a sacrifice of and unblemished lamb (a creation of the Father) is less acceptable than (a god).
Next you must explain how you get around, "have no other god before Me".
Next please explain why the OT claims that only the Father is your savior and there is non-other but the NT clearly teaches that Christ is your savior non-other.
Your chosen verses are correct and I suggest you take them at face value and quit rewriting them in your own mind.
BB
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Hello biblebuf,
A pleasure to converse with you. There is not one scripture which I have quoted that confirms the Trinity except perhaps in your own mind.
The only-begotten Son of God, the first-born of all creation, the Word; “although existing in the spirit form of God; never developed the desire to be equal with God; but transformed himself to become lower than the angels by taking on the form of man.” (Philippians 2:6, 7) NMTCS
So how do you make a Trinity out of that one?
He 'never' developed a desire to become 'equal' with Almighty God, but instead became even 'lower' than the angels when he took on the form of a perfect man like Adam.
You then state: "The real problem you are going to run into is explaining why a sacrifice of and unblemished lamb (a creation of the Father) is less acceptable than (a god)."
Evidently you do not understand what this is all about. The issue between Satan and Almighty God is that God could not put a perfect man on the earth like Adam who would remain obedient unto death!
If Jesus had been a 'god-man' as the Trinitarians claim 'God the Son', then the sacrifice would immediately become invalid. Jesus had to provide a 'corresponding' ransom to Adam for it to be acceptable. It was not a god-man that Satan turned away from Almighty God, but a perfect human.
Also, as Almighty God is immortal, he therefore is indestructible and cannot die!
So if Jesus had been 'God the Son' he would still be hanging there!
I do not wish to sound superior here, but have you ever studied the Bible including God's prophetic pattern and parallel content?
The whole point of a sacrificial lamb goes back to the incident in Egypt when on the evening before the Israelite nation moved out, each family had to sacrifice a lamb and smear its blood on the door post so that when the angel of death passed over, none of their first-born would be killed.
Now the significance of this is that this was a foreshadow of a greater fulfillment when years later, the Lamb of God was executed at Golgotha and his blood stained the post on which he died, so that the angel of Adamic death would pass over the whole of mankind and cancel out death without a resurrection while at the same time opening up the the sure and certain hope of a resurrection to the opportunity of everlasting life.
The scriptural confirmation of this is given to us in the words of the Apostle Paul: "Christ our passover has been sacrificed. (1 Corinthians 5:7)
The statement "That you shall have no other Gods before me." is Almighty God instructing the natural nation of Israel at that time to observe this while they were under the hand of God.
As it happens, three Gods are actually identified in the Bible:
Almighty God who is without equal. (Exodus 6:3)
The Mighty God and Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6)
The god of this present world order. (2 Corinthians 4:4)
Your next comment, I have already covered; Almighty God is saviour who has provided the instrument of salvation Christ Jesus. So each one in his own capacity.
Your last comment, I do not re-write anything, you are simply failing to understand the significance of what is being said. Like Christendom, you seem to be trying to fit the scriptures around you own ideas.
Alexander
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“although existing in the spirit form of God; 'never' developed the desire to be equal with God; but transformed himself to become lower than the angels by taking on the form of man.” (Philippians 2:6, 7) NMTC
I'll try this one more time for you.
“although existing in the spirit form of God; 'never' developed the desire to be equal with God; but transformed himself to become lower than the angels by taking on the form of man.” (Philippians 2:6, 7) NMTC
Philippians 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. (NAS) most accrete translation
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Hello biblebuf,
I am not sure what you are trying to read into the scriptures which you have again quoted; but if you read them carefully; they destroy the Trinity in one go. The quote which you have stated is in the old archaic language which detracts from the sense in which it is written in the Greek.
“although existing in the spirit form of God;" is informing us that like Almighty god, he was created as a spirit creature as opposed to man later who was human. Also like Adam and the rest of us, he posses the same four attribute as Almighty God; Justice, Power, Love and Wisdom as portrayed by the four creatures around the throne of God in Revelation 4:7
In this way he existed in the 'form' of God, therefore he was no God.
Satan has really got you on this one!
If all the working parts in a watch were 'equal', when wound up it would certainly run; but it would never keep time! Balance is the 'key' to creation; not 'equality'!
Remember, if God had an equal; then he could no longer be Almighty God which means 'without equal'!
Alexander
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Hello Alexander
Hello biblebuf,
I am not sure what you are trying to read into the scriptures which you have again quoted; but if you read them carefully; they destroy the Trinity in one go. The quote which you have stated is in the old archaic language which detracts from the sense in which it is written in the Greek.
“although existing in the spirit form of God;" is informing us that like Almighty god, he was created as a spirit creature as opposed to man later who was human. Also like Adam and the rest of us, he posses the same four attribute as Almighty God; Justice, Power, Love and Wisdom as portrayed by the four creatures around the throne of God in Revelation 4:7
In this way he existed in the 'form' of God, therefore he was no God.
Satan has really got you on this one!
If all the working parts in a watch were 'equal', when wound up it would certainly run; but it would never keep time! Balance is the 'key' to creation; not 'equality'!
Remember, if God had an equal; then he could no longer be Almighty God which means 'without equal'!
Alexander
“although existing in the spirit form of God;" NOT “although existing in the spirit form of a god;"
This from the man who believes that Hosea 12:9 is evidence that the Creator built the Great Pyramid.
PS. I search to find your translation NMTC on line and could not find it. Could you direct me to it please.
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Hello Biblebuf,
Not trying to be awkward here, but you do seem to be having a problem with the English language. God is spirit and has four main attributes; Justice, Power, Love and Wisdom.
It is in this form that the Word was created, Almighty God is a being with no beginning and no end; while the Word is a creation and the beginning of such and therefore inferior to Almighty God.
If as you infer, they are one and the same; then you have a big problem because after his raining up from the dead, Jesus was given a status ‘higher’ than he had previously held in heaven.
So if he was already Almighty God as you suggest, what is he now?
The Trinity incidentally is one of Satan’s devious ploys to deceive the naïve and untaught.
The NMTCS is not a Bible Translation but a scriptural corrective reference by Squires Publishing which is still in progress.
Alexander
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Hello Biblebuf,
Not trying to be awkward here, but you do seem to be having a problem with the English language. God is spirit and has four main attributes; Justice, Power, Love and Wisdom.
It is in this form that the Word was created, Almighty God is a being with no beginning and no end; while the Word is a creation and the beginning of such and therefore inferior to Almighty God.
If as you infer, they are one and the same; then you have a big problem because after his raining up from the dead, Jesus was given a status ‘higher’ than he had previously held in heaven.
So if he was already Almighty God as you suggest, what is he now?
The Trinity incidentally is one of Satan’s devious ploys to deceive the naïve and untaught.
The NMTCS is not a Bible Translation but a scriptural corrective reference by Squires Publishing which is still in progress.
Alexander
And Squires Publishing is Alexander Winslow.
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Hello Biblebuf,
Not trying to be awkward here, but you do seem to be having a problem with the English language. God is spirit and has four main attributes; Justice, Power, Love and Wisdom.
It is in this form that the Word was created, Almighty God is a being with no beginning and no end; while the Word is a creation and the beginning of such and therefore inferior to Almighty God.
If as you infer, they are one and the same; then you have a big problem because after his raining up from the dead, Jesus was given a status ‘higher’ than he had previously held in heaven.
So if he was already Almighty God as you suggest, what is he now?
The Trinity incidentally is one of Satan’s devious ploys to deceive the naïve and untaught.
The NMTCS is not a Bible Translation but a scriptural corrective reference by Squires Publishing which is still in progress.
Alexander
So you're using you as a reference of authority, the ultimate in efficiency I must say.
Isaiah 43:10-11
Titus 2:10
acts 13:23
acts 5:31
Acts 4:12
2 Timothy 1:10
1 John 4
Titus 2:10
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Trinity Exposed:
Just as the Word was created in the image of God; so was Adam. So if we go by the rendering of the Trinity, it just became four! Also all mankind is created in God's image, so calculators out; because a lot of humans have passed by over the last six thousand years.
The comment being 'one' also throws the suggestion into chaos when if again we accept this version; Jesus in speaking to his apostles said: "I am in the Father and you are in me and I am in you." (John 14:20) Good grief! This Trinity is stretching all ways now!
On the basis of this scripture, the Trinity has now expanded to include; the twelve Apostles and the rest of the 120 at Pentecost plus the three thousand who were added later. This in itself confirms that the Trinity is actually totally ridiculous and based on its own foundation; it disproves itself!
Correct translation: “In that day you will know that I am in harmony with my Father and you are in harmony with me and I am in harmony with you.” (John 14:20) NMTCS
Alexander
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Trinity Exposed:
Just as the Word was created in the image of God; so was Adam. So if we go by the rendering of the Trinity, it just became four! Also all mankind is created in God's image, so calculators out; because a lot of humans have passed by over the last six thousand years.
The comment being 'one' also throws the suggestion into chaos when if again we accept this version; Jesus in speaking to his apostles said: "I am in the Father and you are in me and I am in you." (John 14:20) Good grief! This Trinity is stretching all ways now!
On the basis of this scripture, the Trinity has now expanded to include; the twelve Apostles and the rest of the 120 at Pentecost plus the three thousand who were added later. This in itself confirms that the Trinity is actually totally ridiculous and based on its own foundation; it disproves itself!
Correct translation: “In that day you will know that I am in harmony with my Father and you are in harmony with me and I am in harmony with you.” (John 14:20) NMTCS
Alexander
I'm sorry Alexander but you're going to have to use quotes from Bibles that actually exist, this is a Bible study board.
Thank you
Admin dude
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Please check my post, all my quotes are from the Bible which confirm the non-existence of the Trinity. When addressed by one of his followers as "Good master" Jesus replied: “And Jesus said unto him, "Why callest thou Me good? There is none good but One, that is, God.” (Mark 10:18) KJ21 By this statement Jesus confirms that he is neither Almighty God nor a God-man.
The additional comments in line with those scriptures are from self reasoning, gleaned from the Oxford Theocratic Bible Course which I took between 1960 - 1963.
Squires Publishing which publishes my books, does not come into it; this is run by S.J. Squires.
Alexander
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Please check my post, all my quotes are from the Bible which confirm the non-existence of the Trinity. When addressed by one of his followers as "Good master" Jesus replied: And Jesus said unto him, "Why callest thou Me good? There is none good but One, that is, God.” (Mark 10:18) KJ21 By this statement Jesus confirms that he is neither Almighty God nor a Goodman.
LOL - Tell me Alex, are you claiming that Christ was not good? Or that He said that He was not good?
The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 18
Original Word Word Origin
agaqoß a primary word
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Agathos 1:10,3
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ag-ath-os' Adjective
Definition
of good constitution or nature
useful, salutary
good, pleasant, agreeable, joyful, happy
excellent, distinguished
upright, honourable
Now if He is good, according to you He must be the Almighty God. And if He is not good I ask you how could His crucifixion pay for your inheritance?
The additional comments in line with those scriptures are from self reasoning, gleaned from the Oxford Theocratic Bible Course which I took between 1960 - 1963.
Get your money back!
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Why callest thou me good?
This is said, not as denying that he was good, or as being angry with him for calling him so, but in order to lead this young man to a true knowledge of him, and his goodness, and even of his proper deity:
there is none good, but one, [that is], God;
some render it, "but one God", as the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Arabic versions; and so the words are a proof of the unity of the divine being, and agree with ( Deuteronomy 6:4 ) , but are not to be understood to the exclusion of the Son and Spirit, who, with the Father, are the one God: nor do these words at all militate against the deity of Christ, or prove that he is not God, as the Jew objects F1; seeing this is not to be understood of the person of the Father, in opposition to the Son and Spirit, who are equally good: nor does Christ, in these words, deny himself to be God, but rather tacitly suggests it; since he is good in the same sense in which God is good: in Matthew it is added, "but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments", ( Matthew 19:17 ) : this Christ said not as his sense, that the way to eternal life lies in keeping the commandments of the law; but he speaks in the language of the Pharisees, and of this man; and his view is, to bring him to a sense of the impossibility of obtaining eternal life by these things, as the sequel shows: wherefore the above Jew F2 has no reason to confront the followers of Jesus with this passage, as if it was a concession of his, that it is impossible any should be saved without keeping the commands of the law of Moses.
Jesus challenged the ruler to think through the implications of ascribing to Him the title “good.” Since only God is intrinsically good, was he prepared to acknowledge Jesus’ deity? By this query Jesus did not deny His deity; on the contrary, He affirmed it.
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JB Horn,
Thank you for your comment. I am not claiming anything, but Jesus is.
The word good in our language has only one context, but in Biblical terms it varies according to the way it is used. In this case the word 'good' applied to Jesus, referred a position of excellence above all else; to which Jesus refuted because that would have put him on an equal basis with Almighty God when he had already stated: "My Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)
Incidentally, Jesus' ransom sacrifice has nothing to do with one's inheritance except for those of the anointed 'little flock' to whom Jesus said: "Have no fear little flock, because the kingdom of the heavens belongs to you." (Luke 12:32)
Jesus' corresponding 'ransom' cancelled Adamic death for 'all' mankind and opened the 'way' to the opportunity for everlasting life as perfect humans on earth by way of the resurrection during the thousand year reign of the Christ. In other words, a 'second chance' for all!
Alexander
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"My Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)
It is understood by anybody that is studied the Scriptures that Christ lowered himself to be a servant to man during the time he was on this earth. I don't understand why this is so hard for you to understand. You Cherry pick your verses out of context trying to change the meaning of the holy Scriptures.
Let me post some more Scriptures from the same book of John showing that the Jews understood what Christ claimed.
John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. 19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. 20 "For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel. 21 "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. 22 "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
John 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one." 31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."
John 20:28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
Incidentally, Jesus' ransom sacrifice has nothing to do with one's inheritance except for those of the anointed 'little flock' to whom Jesus said: "Have no fear little flock, because the kingdom of the heavens belongs to you." (Luke 12:32)
You would do well to read this whole chapter it will explain to you that Christ is addressing His disciples.
JB
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JB Horn,
Well what can I say?
With all due respect, you are reading the scriptures out of context and without understanding.
For a start, I do not 'cherry-pick' verses as you claim, all scripture which I quote is in complete harmony with the whole of the Bible. Also, one must take into consideration that when a scripture in Jesus' words states: "My Father is greater than I." (John 14:28) Then this is so!
If this was incorrect in any way shape or form, then it would have to be out of harmony with the whole of the Bible, which would make it in contradiction with itself and therefore of no value!
While on earth, Jesus became a perfect man and therefore 'lower' than the angels; (Hebrews 2:9) which means even lower compared to Almighty God of which he had already stated.
If you read John 5:18 correctly, you will notice that it was the Jews who were claiming that he was making himself equal to God because of what he was telling them. However, in contrast to this statement in verse 18 he turned and re-buffed this statement by declaring that even then, there was nothing he could do of himself without the help of God!
So no 'equality' and no incarnation!
This is the Bible speaking and not me!
Judgement has indeed been given to the Son but at the appointed time during the Sabbath Millennium (Revelation 20:6) by permission of his Father Almighty God.
Your quote of John 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all."
confirms that Almighty God is indeed greater than all including the Son. If he was not, then he would cease to be 'Almighty' which actually means without equal!
Even in John 10:30, if we accept the Trinitarian version, we end up in trouble straight away; "I and my Father are one." Even John 10:30 is a favourite of the Trinitarians for boosting their claim of 'equality', but if we accept this claim; we must also take into consideration that Jesus also included his 'little flock' in this so immediately the number suddenly grows from 120 to 144,003!
JOHN 14:20 proves the ridiculousness of the so-called Trinity:
“In that day you will know that I am in the Father, you are in me and I am in you.” The Trinity just expanded to an unlimited number!
So the corrective sense of this verse is: "“In that day you will know that I am in harmony with the Father, you are in harmony with me and I am in harmony with you.” NMTCS
Another point to consider, we have a scripture which confirms that Jesus was not God incarnate; because he was raised up and exalted ‘higher’ than during his pre-human existence.
“For this very reason also, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him a name that is above every other name.” (Philippians 2:9)
So if he had originally been Almighty God and has now been raised to an even more superior position; then we have a big problem!
Alexander
So you see, all the way along the Bible is in harmony with itself, only the churches with their man-made doctrines of the Trinity, immortality of the soul and hell are in conflict with each other.
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If this was incorrect in any way shape or form, then it would have to be out of harmony with the whole of the Bible, which would make it in contradiction with itself and therefore of no value!
Just so I understand, you’re not denying that in Luke 12:32 Christ is addressing His disciples as the ‘little flock,' corrected?
You claim that Christ is a god but not the God Almighty.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. (NWT)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (2316), and the Word was God(2316). 2 The same was in the beginning with God(2316). (Real Bible)
Isaiah 45:21 NAS
"Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old ? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD ? And there is no other God (0430) besides Me, A righteous God (0430) and a Savior ; There is none except Me.
Deuteronomy 4:35 "To you it was shown that you might know that the LORD, He is God; there is no other besides Him.
Titus 3:6 (NWT)
He poured this spirit out richly on us through Jesus Christ our Savior,
(NAS) 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
By mistranslating John 1 you have thrown your understanding of the scriptures out of balance, you have to violate the first commandment given to Moses, 2 I am the LORD thy God, (0430) which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods (0430) before me.
(NWT) “I am Jehovah your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You must not have any other gods besides me. (Note the small g)
The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 2316
Original Word
Word Origin
qeovß
of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with (3588)) the supreme Divinity
Transliterated Word
TDNT Entry
Theos
3:65,322
Phonetic Spelling
Parts of Speech
theh'-os
Noun Masculine
Definition
1. a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
2. the Godhead, trinity
a. God the Father, the first person in the trinity
b. Christ, the second person of the trinity
c. Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
3. spoken of the only and true God
a. refers to the things of God
b. his counsels, interests, things due to him
4. whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
a. God's representative or viceregent
1. of magistrates and judges
Strong's Number: 0430
Original Word
Word Origin
~yhla
plural of (0433)
Transliterated Word
TDNT Entry
'elohiym
TWOT - 93c
Phonetic Spelling
Parts of Speech
el-o-heem'
Noun Masculine
Definition
1. (plural)
a. rulers, judges
b. divine ones
c. angels
d. gods
2. (plural intensive - singular meaning)
a. god, goddess
b. godlike one
c. works or special possessions of God
d. the (true) God
e. God
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Hello JB Horn,
Thank you for your reply. Yes you are quite correct to a point, in Luke 12:32 Jesus is here 'personally' addressing the nucleus of his 'little flock' wich actually comprised later og both Jew and Gentile. (John 10:16) "I have other sheep [Gentiles] not of this fold [Jews] these also I must bring and they shall become one flock, one shepherd."
So the 'little flock' were to be gathered by the Holy Spirit up until the door of this opportunity closed when the kingdom moved into power at the end of the appointed times of the nations.
I gather by the following scriptures and comments that you have presented, that you are a Trinintarian.
The problem is that in some of the scriptures you are using, the wording is erroneous due to mistranslation from the original Greek. In John 1:1 "The Word was with God." is rendered by a capital Theta, while at the end "the Word was a god." is rendered by a standard Theta; denoting two God's of unequal status. (Vatican Greek Manuscript 1209)
The Administrator has cautioned me regarding the use of scripture, but like Young's Analytical Concordance; the New Millennium Translation of Corrected Scripture is actually the same except that is corrects also the 'sense' of what is being stated as opposed to many translations today which like the KJV is full of archaic words and phrases while it is already noted that some new translations are worded according to the beliefs of the translators which is actually unacceptable.
This is evident in some of the scriptures which you have quoted here.
The confirmation that Christ Jesus is a God and not Almighty God is confirmed in Isaiah 9:6 where he is identified as a 'Mighty' God and the Prince of Peace. If he was equal to Almighty God, then Almighty God wold cease to be Almighty; which means without equal.
Also, the other line which you quote confirms my point, "The same was in the beginning with God." Therefore as he was 'with' God then he could not 'be' God; in fact before this the Word did not exist!
I am afraid that you NAS is is at default in some of its wording, due to the fact that is alters the 'sense' of the original manuscript. You are also reading without understanding.
e.g. "Isaiah 45:21 NAS
"Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old ? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD ? And there is no other God (0430) besides Me, A righteous God (0430) and a Savior ; There is none except Me."
This scripture given to the Jews while they were under the directive of Almighty God, is making the point that at that time their only God and Saviour was Jehovah, due to the fact that under his Laws and protection, they had had only one God Almighty as opposed to all the pagan gods around them. He was also to be their Saviour, because by means of him he was at the appointed time; to produce the instrument of their Salvation the 'Messiah' who would reverse Adamic sin while at the same time by his sacrifice; release them from the 'curse' of the Mosaic Law which condemned them continually due to their imperfections.
Your next: "Titus 3:6 (NWT)
He poured this spirit out richly on us through Jesus Christ our Savior,
(NAS) 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
"...a Renovation of the Holy Spirit, which he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our SAVIOUR." (Vatican Greek Manuscript 1209)
So here we have the translators of the NAS altering the wording according to their own persuasion.
The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon was devised by the Trinitarian body to incorporate their doctrine into translation. This is why we needed the Young's Analytical Concordance which has been provided to correct these 'flaws' in addition to other older manuscripts which include the correct sense and wording.
What ‘Godhead’?
The term ‘Godhead’ [Theios] Gk. used in a number of translations is more accurately defined as ‘Divine Being’ due to the fact that this refers the Grand Creator himself who is from everlasting to everlasting with no beginning and no end, whereas all other life-forms all have a beginning, even the lesser gods mentioned in Isaiah 9:6, 7 and 2 Corinthians 4:4.
Psalm 90:2 states: “… Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.” KJV [No beginning and No end]
Waverley Encyclopaedia page 1019 Oxford Edition 1945
Bottom line is that you are using references from a biased group to boost the non-existent Trinity.
Alexander
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Thank you for your reply. Yes you are quite correct to a point, in Luke 12:32 Jesus is here 'personally' addressing the nucleus of his 'little flock' wich actually comprised later og both Jew and Gentile. (John 10:16) "I have other sheep [Gentiles] not of this fold [Jews] these also I must bring and they shall become one flock, one shepherd."
I enjoy watching you try to twist. So the 'little flock' grows but remains small and will always be the 'little flock' so that you claim that everyone that disagrees with you are not of the Elect, except of course it is now one 'big flock'.
The problem is that in some of the scriptures you are using, the wording is erroneous due to mistranslation from the original Greek. In John 1:1 "The Word was with God." is rendered by a capital Theta, while at the end "the Word was a god." is rendered by a standard Theta; denoting two God's of unequal status. (Vatican Greek Manuscript 1209)
This is what we are talking about isn't it, interpretation, translation.
If Jesus is "a god", he is a god nonetheless. The means there are two gods, this is polytheism.
How then do we reconcile what John is saying with the rest of Scripture?
Torrey's New Topical Textbook - Christ Is God
As Jehovah
Isa 40:3; Mat 3:3;
As Jehovah of glory
Psa 24:7; Psa 24:10; 1Co 2:8; Jam 2:1;
As Jehovah, our RIGHTEOUSNESS
Jer 23:5; Jer 23:6; 1Co 1:30;
As Jehovah, above all
Psa 97:9; Joh 3:31;
As Jehovah, the First and the Last
Isa 44:6; Rev 1:17; Isa 48:12-16; Rev 22:13;
As Jehovah's Fellow and Equal
Zec 13:7; Phi 2:6;
As Jehovah of Hosts
Isa 6:1-3; Joh 12:41; Isa 8:13; Isa 8:14; 1Pe 2:8;
As Jehovah, the Shepherd
Isa 40:11; Heb 13:20;
As Jehovah, for whose glory all things were created
Pro 16:4; Col 1:16;
As Jehovah, the Messenger of the covenant
Mal 3:1; Mar 1:2; Luk 2:27;
Invoked as Jehovah
Joe 2:32; Act 2:21; 1Co 1:2;
As the Eternal God and Creator
Psa 102:24-27; Heb 1:8; Heb 1:10-12;
As the mighty God
Isa 9:6;
As the Great God and Saviour
Hos 1:7; Tit 2:13;
As God over all
Psa 45:6; Psa 45:7; Rom 9:5;
As the true God
Jer 10:10; 1Jo 5:20;
As God the Word
Joh 1:1;
As God, the judge
Ecc 12:14; 1Co 4:5; 2Co 5:10; 2Ti 4:1;
As Emmanuel
Isa 7:14; Mat 1:23;
As King of kings and Lord of lords
Deu 10:17; Rev 1:5; Rev 17:14;
As the Holy One
1Sa 2:2; Act 3:14;
As the Lord from heaven
1Co 15:47;
As Lord of the Sabbath
Gen 2:3; Mat 12:8;
As Lord of all
Act 10:36; Rom 10:11-13;
As Son of God
Mat 26:63-67;
As the Only-begotten Son of the Father
Joh 1:14; Joh 1:18; Joh 3:16; Joh 3:18; 1Jo 4:9;
His blood is called the blood of God
Act 20:28;
As one with the Father
Joh 10:30; Joh 10:38; Joh 12:45; Joh 14:7-10; Joh 17:10;
As sending the Spirit, equally with the Father
Joh 14:16; Joh 15:26;
As entitled to equal honour with the Father
Joh 5:23;
As Owner of all things, equally with the Father
Joh 16:15;
As unrestricted by the law of the sabbath, equally with the Father
Joh 5:17;
As the Source of grace, equally with the Father
1Th 3:11; 2Th 2:16; 2Th 2:17;
As unsearchable, equally with the Father
Pro 30:4; Mat 11:27;
As Creator of all things
Isa 40:28; Joh 1:3; Col 1:16; Heb 1:2;
As Supporter and Preserver of all things
Neh 9:6; Col 1:17; Heb 1:3;
As possessed of the fulness of the God head
Col 2:9; Heb 1:3;
As raising the dead
Joh 5:21; Joh 6:40; Joh 6:54;
As raising himself from the dead
Joh 2:19; Joh 2:21; Joh 10:18;
As Eternal
Isa 9:6; Mic 5:2; Joh 1:1; Col 1:17; Heb 1:8-10; Rev 1:8;
As Omnipresent
Mat 18:20; Mat 28:20; Joh 3:13;
As Omnipotent
Psa 45:3; Phi 3:21; Rev 1:8;
As Omniscient
Joh 16:30; Joh 21:17;
As discerning the thoughts of the heart
1Ki 8:39; Luk 5:22; Eze 11:5; Joh 2:24; Joh 2:25; Rev 2:23;
As unchangeable
Mal 3:6; Heb 1:12; Heb 13:8;
As having power to forgive sins
Col 3:13; Mar 2:7; Mar 2:10;
As Giver of pastors to the Church
Jer 3:15; Eph 4:11-13;
As Husband of the Church
Isa 54:5; Eph 5:25-32; Isa 62:5; Rev 21:2; Rev 21:9;
As the object of divine worship
Act 7:59; 2Co 12:8; 2Co 12:9; Heb 1:6; Rev 5:12;
As the object of faith
Psa 2:12; 1Pe 2:6; Jer 17:5; Jer 17:7; Joh 14:1;
As God, he redeems and purifies the Church to himself
Rev 5:9; Tit 2:14;
As God, he presents the Church to himself
Eph 5:27; Jud 1:24; Jud 1:25;
Saints live to him as God
Rom 6:11; Gal 2:19; 2Co 5:15;
Acknowledged by his Apostles
Joh 20:28;
Acknowledged by the Old Testament saints
Gen 17:1; Gen 48:15; Gen 48:16; Gen 32:24-30; Hos 12:3-5; Jdg 6:22-24; Jdg 13:21; Jdg 13:22; Job 19:25-27;
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Scofield Reference Bible Notes - John 1:1
Word
(Greek, "logos"); (Aramaic, "Memra," used in the Targums, or Hebrew, paraphrases, for "God"). The Greek term means,
(1) a thought or concept;
(2) the expression or utterance of that thought. As a designation of Christ, therefore, Logos is peculiarly felicitous because,
(1) in Him are embodied all the treasures of the divine wisdom, the collective "thought" of God 1Co 1:24; Eph 3:11; Col 2:2; Col 2:3 and,
(2) He is from eternity, but especially in His incarnation, the utterance or expression of the Person, and "thought" of Deity Joh 1:3-5; Joh 1:9; Joh 1:14-18; Joh 14:9-11; Col 2:9.
In the Being, Person, and work of Christ, Deity is told out.
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Geneva Bible Notes, 1599 - John 1:1
In (1)the (a)beginning (b)was (c)the Word, and the Word was (d)with God, and the (e)Word was God.
(1)The Son of God is of one and the selfsame eternity or everlastingness, and of one and the selfsame essence or nature with the Father.
(a)From the beginning, as the evangelist says in (1Jo 1:1); it is as though he said that the Word did not begin to have his being when God began to make all that was made: for the Word was even then when all things that were made began to be made, and therefore he was before the beginning of all things.
(b)Had his being.
(c)This word "the" points out to us a peculiar and choice thing above all others, and puts a difference between this "Word", which is the Son of God, and the laws of God, which are also called the word of God.
(d)This word "with" points out that there is a distinction of persons here.
(e)This word "Word" is the first in order in the sentence, and is the subject of the sentence, and this word "God" is the latter in order, and is the predicate of the sentence.
The original rendering is"...Kai Theos e'n o' Logos" or "...and God was the Word."
Bottom line is that the Word is God!
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Hello JB Horn,
Thank you again for your comments.
Still misreading my words again I see, the 'little flock' has one specific number in total which is 144,000; a very 'little' flock compared to the millions of followers of Christ Jesus down through the ages.
The difference between you and I is that I believe and teach the scriptures while you evidently surface read and ad-lib.
We are certainly not talking about interpretation, this belongs to Almighty God alone. Translation however is a different matter and one that is still being abused even by the authorities today for the sake of their own erroneous doctrines.
This is why a big thing is made by them concerning the Satanic doctrine of the Trinity, which anyone with common sense can see through it in two minutes. In fact, if you listen carefully when someone says 'Trinity' you will hear Satan laughing!
If one uses the scriptures instead of ad-libbing we discover that there is only one Almighty God mentioned in the Bible, but there are two other 'lesser' Gods; one is confirmed in Isaiah 9:6 the Mighty God and Prince of Peace Christ Jesus, and the other is found at 2 Corinthians 4:4 the god of the world Satan!
Torrey's New Topical Textbook - Christ Is God?
Yes, but which one?
Certainly not Almighty God because anything 'equal' to Almighty God and he ceases to be Almighty which means without equal!
I do not know who wrote this Textbook, but I suspect it was a Trinitarian. I have come across some twisted reasoning and this is a classic example!
Matthew 3:3 for instance is John the Baptist declaring a preparation of the 'Way' of Jehovah, to which Jesus later acknowledged that he is that 'Way' which has nothing to do with him being Almighty God. He is the way and instrument of Jehovah by which means he was to reverse all that transpired in Eden and open up the way to the resurrection and everlasting life by means of his sacrifice.
Now Almighty God Jehovah is immortal and cannot die nor be destroyed in any way shape or form, so if as the Trinitarians claim, that Jesus was Almighty God incarnate; then he would still be hanging there alive!
On the other hand, the challenge from Satan was that God could not put a perfect human like Adam on the earth who would remain faithful to him. So if Jesus was as the Trinitarians claim, Almighty God incarnate; then so was Adam which means that the Trinity just expanded to four!
When he was first born, he was to be called Jesus which actually means 'Jehovah is Salvation' and this was the instrument God was using for that purpose. The name Jesus and Joshua both mean 'Jehovah is Salvation' so if the Trinitarians are claiming that in this respect Jesus is Jehovah, then so is Joshua!
Like I said, common sense and reasoning soon brings the truth to the fore.
Even the term 'God-head' is a mistranslation of 'Divine Being' of which there is only one because the correct definition of being is from everlasting to everlasting, whereas Jesus as the Word is the first-born of all creation which makes him inferior to Almighty God.
As God, he redeems and purifies the Church to himself?
Not according to scripture which shows that as the mortal ransom sacrifice corresponding to Adam, Jesus is the instrument of redemption provided by Almighty God; as I explained earlier.
I could go through the whole of the scriptures quoted, but let it be sufficient to say that while every scripture quoted is absolutely correct; it is the erroneous inference which is applied to them that twists peoples minds!
If the Trinity was correct, then all the churches of Christendom would embrace it, yet when asked who he was in addressing his Apostles; Peter replied: "You are the Christ, the Son of God." (Matthew 16:16)
Not 'God the Son' as declared by the Trinitarians, so even the Apostle Peter denies the Trinity to which Jesus replied that it was his Father who was in heaven that had revealed this to him. So as Jehovah was still in heaven according to Jesus, no God incarnate!
Alexander
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This question was put to you by Phat.
If Jesus is "a god", he is a god nonetheless. The means there are two gods, this is polytheism.
How then do we reconcile what John is saying with the rest of Scripture?
You danced around giving an answer. I would like to ask you two questions they are very simple, do you believe there's more than one god? Revelation 7 tells us that the 144,000 of your little flock will have no Gentiles in it, do you believe that?
You know Alexander when I read your post it is very evident that you can only hope for salvation coming from your own actions, in other words salvation by works. On a personal note, those affected you attended Oxford make you feel proud or maybe make you feel that this gives you some authority?
Please give me direct answers to my two questions, no need for scriptures, Just answer them or face annihilation from the forum. ;)
Admin Dude
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Och.
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Hello Admin Dude,
Thank you for your comments of which I am pleased to answer.
To answer your first point on Jesus being a God, this is confirmed in Isaiah 9:6, 7 which identifies him in prophecy as a 'Mighty God' and the Prince of Peace. The Bible also Identifies Jehovah as 'Almighty God' which puts him in a superior position to everything else. Also we need to take into consideration 2 Corinthians 4:4 which identifies Satan as the 'god' of this world. So in effect, the Bible identifies three Gods each of unequal status, but with Jehovah as the Almighty which means without equal!
Now as for you second comment, you seem to have misread my words concerning not 'my' 'little flock' but Jesus' little flock, which is actually comprised of both Jew and Gentile as confirmed in John 10:16 "I have other sheep [Gentiles] not of this fold [Jews], these also I must bring; and they shall become on flock [144,000] and one shepherd.
Notice that they 'become' one shepherd and not 'under' one shepherd, this is because they will rule and shepherd the nations during the thousand year reign of the Christ as confirmed in Revelation 20:6.
On your third, you again have misread my words, in fact the Good News of the Kingdom is the resurrection and a second chance for all as stated by the Apostle Paul: "We entertain the hope that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous." (Acts 24:15)
This is a more substantial hope than that given by the churches of Christendom, because here we have Almighty God in his loving kindness; having provided Christ Jesus the liberator from Adamic death, giving the whole of the human race the hope by way of the resurrection to attain human perfection as first intended, during the thousand year reign and then having reached this status at the end of this period Revelation 20:7-10 shows how everything has come full circle and Satan is let loose for a short period to once more attempt to deceive the nations as he did with Adam and Eve in Eden.
It also shows that many whose number is countless like the grains of sand on the sea shore, will still follow Satan and as this is on their own cognizance; they are annihilated by the 'second death'. (Revelation 21:8)
Those who remain faithful which will also be countless, will gain everlasting life in perfection on earth in a global Edenic Paradise.
This is what was foretold by Jesus in his parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46.
What I have given you here, is what all the churches of Christendom should be teaching instead of their own man-made doctrines.
On your personal note, the only reason for my mentioning the Oxford Course is to bring to one's attention that this was a completely non-denominational course free from the doctrines of the churches, we were taught 'clean' scripture only.
Alexander
'little flock' but Jesus' littlr flock which actually is comprised of both Jew and Gentile. Thi is cobfirmed in John 10:16 which states
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Thank you Alexander Winslow for answering my questions.
To answer your first point on Jesus being a God, this is confirmed in Isaiah 9:6, 7 which identifies him in prophecy as a 'Mighty God' and the Prince of Peace. The Bible also Identifies Jehovah as 'Almighty God' which puts him in a superior position to everything else. Also we need to take into consideration 2 Corinthians 4:4 which identifies Satan as the 'god' of this world. So in effect, the Bible identifies three Gods each of unequal status, but with Jehovah as the Almighty which means without equal!
So that the readers understand you believe in polytheism. Of course you, not being a JW, are going to tell me that you only pay homage to Christ but do not worship Him, that is balderdash and you know it.
Now as for you second comment, you seem to have misread my words concerning not 'my' 'little flock' but Jesus' little flock, which is actually comprised of both Jew and Gentile as confirmed in John 10:16 "I have other sheep [Gentiles] not of this fold [Jews], these also I must bring; and they shall become on flock [144,000] and one shepherd.
But this is not what the Scriptures say, the verses you do not referre to the 144,000.
Rev 7 NWT
1 Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:
5 Out of the tribe of Judah 12,000 sealed;
out of the tribe of Reu′ben 12,000;
out of the tribe of Gad 12,000;
6 out of the tribe of Ash′er 12,000;
out of the tribe of Naph′ta·li 12,000;
out of the tribe of Ma·nas′seh 12,000;
7 out of the tribe of Sim′e·on 12,000;
out of the tribe of Le′vi 12,000;
out of the tribe of Is′sa·char 12,000;
8 out of the tribe of Zeb′u·lun 12,000;
out of the tribe of Joseph 12,000;
out of the tribe of Benjamin 12,000 sealed.
Rev 14
1 Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 I heard a sound coming out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was like singers who accompany themselves by playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth. 4 These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.
As the readers can see they are all Jews, male and unmarried.
On your third, you again have misread my words, in fact the Good News of the Kingdom is the resurrection and a second chance for all as stated by the Apostle Paul: "We entertain the hope that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous." (Acts 24:15)
We know that the OT jews believed in the reserection of the dead, some to everlasting life and some to some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake , some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Job 19:23 "Oh that my words were written! Oh that they were inscribed in a book! 24 "That with an iron stylus and lead They were engraved in the rock forever! 25 "As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will take His stand on the earth. 26 "Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see God;
Thank you again Alexander Winslow I pray that you find the way.
Admin Dude
Like to add a few verses for thought.
Col. 3:24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.
Matt. 4:10 Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.' "
John 8:50 "But I do not seek My glory; there is One who seeks and judges.
John 5:22"For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
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Hi
Admin
No doubt this is going to lead us to Michael archangel . 8)
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Hello Admin,
Thank you for your reply of which it seems you are still misreading my words. It is the Bible itself which names the three Gods of unequal status, not me. One of which will cease to exist at the end of Christ's thousand year reign.
The 'key' to all of this is understanding the correct positions of both Almighty God and Christ Jesus in their capacity today as we move towards the end of this the last generation of this present word order.
Worship is given to both Christ Jesus and Almighty God in their individual positions as Christ prepares to take full command of the situation at the beginning of his thousand year reign.
We have to remember that he still remains the mediator between the whole of the human race and Almighty God, right up until the fulfillment of God's purpose for creation in Revelation 21:1-4.
A point to remember here, is that at the completion of everything, with creation then operating as first intended; Christ Jesus will hand over his kingdom to his God and Father. (1 Corinthians 15:24).
So even though today Christ Jesus reigns in the capacity of a Mighty God and Prince of Peace, (Isaiah 9:6) He is still subservient to Almighty God to whom everything belongs.
The next point is where understanding comes in, Jesus said "Have no fear little flock the kingdom of the heavens belongs to you." So immediately here, we have Jesus defining those of a specific group which will rule in the heavens with him.
This little flock of course comprises of both Jew and Gentile, in accordance with the prophecy in Daniel 9:27 whereby he was to keep the covenant with the Jews for one week of years; giving them first refusal for the 'heavenly' calling.
At the end of this short period, the offer then went out to the Gentiles, the 'other sheep' (John 10:16) confirmed by the baptism of the centurion Cornelius.
When we check the scriptures thoroughly, we confirm that this 'little flock' is the only group designated for immortality in the heavens.
Jesus' words confirm this when he said: "...the kingdom of heaven belongs to you." No one else. Therefore when we further examine the scriptures which you also have quoted concerning the the 144,000 in Revelation 7 and 14, the only group to which this can apply is the 'little flock' the Israel of God who make up the twelve heavenly tribes of which the natural nation of Israel foreshadowed before they were cast-off in 607 BCE.
This is why the Apostle Paul in recognizing this ongoing status said: "The Jerusalem today is in bondage [to corruption and death], but the Jerusalem above is free [from corruption and death] and she is our mother. (Galatians 4:25, 26)
Revelation 14 3 "And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth."
Yes, here is the 'key' concerning their identification; "those who have been bought from the earth." This includes Peter, Paul, James, John and the rest of the twelve apostles from whom stems the twelve heavenly tribes all comprised of those anointed ones both Jew and Gentile of Christ's heavenly little flock.
Your comment on the resurrection, the Pharisees did not believe in the resurrection but the Sadducees did; Jesus however opened the 'way' for two separate resurrections. The first was the heavenly resurrection of his 'little flock' while the second was the general resurrection of all the rest of mankind.
Corrected Scripture: Revelation 20:4, 5 “…And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the end of the thousand years.” [These are of the ‘second’ resurrection] NMTCS
The bottom line is that through his disobedience, Adam brought imperfection and death to the human race. God therefore in his loving kindness, because he must destroy anything which is imperfect; decided that as mankind is now imperfect through Adam and not through its own self; then by means of his appointed anointed-one Christ Jesus, Adamic death [death without a resurrection] would be cancelled and the 'way' opened to the general resurrection of all mankind and the opportunity of being brought up to human perfection so that when Satan is let loose this time, anyone who fails will do so on his own merit and not because of Adam's legacy.
This is the Bible in a nut-shell.
Alexander
God
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I'm sorry Mr. Winslow but did you mean to sign this "God" or was that a mistake?
AD
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Hello Administrator,
Sorry about that, that was not supposed to be on there, The word 'God 'must have filed its way down through while I was composing the post.
Alexander
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Hello Administrator,
Sorry about that, that was not supposed to be on there, The word 'God 'must have filed its way down through while I was composing the post.
Alexander
I made a mistake once, back in 1946 when I was young. Or was it 1956 :-\
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Just a brief confirmation that the Word which became flesh (John 1:14) is a god and not the Almighty God.
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν,
In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God,
καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
and a god was the Word (Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott - V20b Vat Ms 1209 – one of the oldest in existence)
Alexander
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Just a brief confirmation that the Word which became flesh (John 1:14) is a god and not the Almighty God.
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν,
In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God,
καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
and a god was the Word (Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott - V20b Vat Ms 1209 – one of the oldest in existence)
Alexander
Strong's Transliteration Greek English Morphology
1722 [e] En Ἐν In [the] Prep
746 [e] archē ἀρχῇ beginning N-DFS
1510 [e] ēn ἦν was V-IIA-3S
3588 [e] ho ὁ the Art-NMS
3056 [e] Logos Λόγος, Word, N-NMS
2532 [e] kai καὶ and Conj
3588 [e] ho ὁ the Art-NMS
3056 [e] Logos Λόγος Word N-NMS
1510 [e] ēn ἦν was V-IIA-3S
4314 [e] pros πρὸς with Prep
3588 [e] ton τὸν - Art-AMS
2316 [e] Theon Θεόν, God, N-AMS
2532 [e] kai καὶ and Conj
2316 [e] Theos Θεὸς God N-NMS
1510 [e] ēn ἦν was V-IIA-3S
3588 [e] ho ὁ the Art-NMS
3056 [e] Logos Λόγος. Word. N-NMS
En archí̱ í̱n o lógos kaí o lógos í̱n prós tón theón kaí theós í̱n o lógos
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος (Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550)
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and God was the Word
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος. (Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894)
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and God was the Word
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος. (Greek Orthodox Church 1904)
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and God was the Word
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Just a brief confirmation that the Word which became flesh (John 1:14) is a god and not the Almighty God.
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν,
In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God,
καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
and a god was the Word (Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott - V20b Vat Ms 1209 – one of the oldest in existence)
Alexander
From Roberts word pictures
In the beginning (en arch). Arch is definite, though anarthrous like our at home, in town, and the similar Hebrew be reshith in Genesis 1:1 . But Westcott notes that here John carries our thoughts beyond the beginning of creation in time to eternity. There is no argument here to prove the existence of God any more than in Genesis. It is simply assumed. Either God exists and is the Creator of the universe as scientists like Eddington and Jeans assume or matter is eternal or it has come out of nothing. Was (hn). Three times in this sentence John uses this imperfect of eimi to be which conveys no idea of origin for God or for the Logos, simply continuous existence. Quite a different verb (egeneto, became) appears in verse John 1:14 for the beginning of the Incarnation of the Logos. See the distinction sharply drawn in Genesis 8:58 "before Abraham came (genesqai) I am" (eimi, timeless existence). The Word (o logo). Logo is from legw, old word in Homer to lay by, to collect, to put words side by side, to speak, to express an opinion. Logo is common for reason as well as speech. Heraclitus used it for the principle which controls the universe. The Stoics employed it for the soul of the world (anima mundi) and Marcus Aurelius used spermatiko logo for the generative principle in nature. The Hebrew memra was used in the Targums for the manifestation of God like the Angel of Jehovah and the Wisdom of God in Proverbs 8:23 . Dr. J. Rendel Harris thinks that there was a lost wisdom book that combined phrases in Proverbs and in the Wisdom of Solomon which John used for his Prologue (The Origin of the Prologue to St. John, p. 43) which he has undertaken to reproduce. At any rate John's standpoint is that of the Old Testament and not that of the Stoics nor even of Philo who uses the term Logo, but not John's conception of personal pre-existence. The term Logo is applied to Christ only in John 1:1 John 1:14 ; Revelation 19:13 ; 1 John 1:1 "concerning the Word of life" (an incidental argument for identity of authorship). There is a possible personification of "the Word of God" in Hebrews 4:12 . But the personal pre-existence of Christ is taught by Paul ( 2 Corinthians 8:9 ; Philippians 2:6 ; Colossians 1:17 ) and in Hebrews 1:2 and in John 17:5 . This term suits John's purpose better than sopia (wisdom) and is his answer to the Gnostics who either denied the actual humanity of Christ (Docetic Gnostics) or who separated the aeon Christ from the man Jesus (Cerinthian Gnostics). The pre-existent Logos "became flesh" (sarx egeneto, verse John 14 ) and by this phrase John answered both heresies at once. With God (pro ton qeon). Though existing eternally with God the Logos was in perfect fellowship with God. Pro with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other. In 1 John 2:1 we have a like use of pro: "We have a Paraclete with the Father" (paraklhton ecomen pro ton patera). See proswpon pro proswpon (face to face, 1 Corinthians 13:12 ), a triple use of pro. There is a papyrus example of pro in this sense to gnwston th pro allhlou sunhqeia, "the knowledge of our intimacy with one another" (M.&M., Vocabulary) which answers the claim of Rendel Harris, Origin of Prologue, p. 8) that the use of pro here and in Mark 6:3 is a mere Aramaism. It is not a classic idiom, but this is Koin, not old Attic. In John 17:5 John has para soi the more common idiom. And the Word was God (kai qeo hn o logo). By exact and careful language John denied Sabellianism by not saying o qeo hn o logo. That would mean that all of God was expressed in o logo and the terms would be interchangeable, each having the article. The subject is made plain by the article (o logo) and the predicate without it (qeo) just as in John 4:24 pneuma o qeo can only mean "God is spirit," not "spirit is God." So in 1 John 4:16 o qeo agaph estin can only mean "God is love," not "love is God" as a so-called Christian scientist would confusedly say. For the article with the predicate see Robertson, Grammar_, pp. 767f. So in John 1:14 o Logo sarx egeneto, "the Word became flesh," not "the flesh became Word." Luther argues that here John disposes of Arianism also because the Logos was eternally God, fellowship of Father and Son, what Origen called the Eternal Generation of the Son (each necessary to the other). Thus in the Trinity we see personal fellowship on an equality.
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Hello Fat,
I cannot believe that you have stated this. All things in creation are founded on balance, not equality. If anything at all was equal to God, he would immediately cease to be Almighty God which in itself means without 'equal'. So the title of Almighty God informs us that even the conception of such a thing as a Trinity is nul and void!
When the question came up as to whom Jesus was while on earth, he asked his apostles: "Who do you say I am?" To which Simon Peter replied: "You are the Christ the Son of God." [Not God the Son] Whereby Jesus replied: "Well done Simon, because not man but my Father who is still in heaven who has revealed this to you." (Matthew 16:16, 17)
Well there we are, his Father who was still in heaven; so Jesus was not God incarnate after all.
All we have to do is read the scriptures and understand the sense in which they are written and all is revealed!
Alexander
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Hello Alex
"Who do you say I am?" To which Simon Peter replied: "You are the Christ the Son of God." [Not God the Son] Whereby Jesus replied: "Well done Simon, because not man but my Father who is still in heaven who has revealed this to you." (Matthew 16:16, 17)
Can't believe you added to the scriptures to try and make a point.
I'll tell you the same thing I told Kimberley,
You have put limitations on our Lord, as if He is incapable of being in two places at one or that He can not take up a human form and and experience humility. You don't believe that He can be in two or three forms at one time. My God has no limitations. The only thing my God can not do is violate His own nature, for instance He can not lie.
I bet you have no problem with God being a burning bush or even asked yourself in what form was God when He came to Abraham (Gen 18) and eat and even bargained with him over the fate of Sodom.
Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Jesus- made lower than the angels for a short time so that by God's grace He might taste death for everyone-crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death.
Well there we are, his Father who was still in heaven; so Jesus was not God incarnate after all.
I see, your Almighty God can not be in two places at once, now I understand.
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There are 3 Persons in the Godhead.
God the Father is not the Son.
They are 1 minded, 1 of spirit. - John 17.
Gen 19:24 Then the LORD (Jesus) rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD (the Father) out of heaven.
The greatest of God’s revelation to man is the Father – Son relationship, that there are 3 Persons in the Godhead and how They function as a unity. They who know God not in truth, show that they do not have the Spirit of God. For the Holy Spirit has come to lead us in all truth – John16:13.
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There are 3 Persons in the Godhead.
God the Father is not the Son.
They are 1 minded, 1 of spirit. - John 17.
Gen 19:24 Then the LORD (Jesus) rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD (the Father) out of heaven.
The greatest of God’s revelation to man is the Father – Son relationship, that there are 3 Persons in the Godhead and how They function as a unity. They who know God not in truth, show that they do not have the Spirit of God. For the Holy Spirit has come to lead us in all truth – John16:13.
Eph 4:4-6
There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
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There are 3 Persons in the Godhead.
God the Father is not the Son.
They are 1 minded, 1 of spirit. - John 17.
Gen 19:24 Then the LORD (Jesus) rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD (the Father) out of heaven.
The greatest of God’s revelation to man is the Father – Son relationship, that there are 3 Persons in the Godhead and how They function as a unity. They who know God not in truth, show that they do not have the Spirit of God. For the Holy Spirit has come to lead us in all truth – John16:13.
Isaiah 43:10, 11
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Hello JITC
I can't quite determine, from your post, if you believe Christ to
be a created being or not.
Mac
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Hello Trinitarians,
Here is something to consider:
The Bible is one Bible [The inspired Word of God]
It has one foundational doctrine [The Ransom]
It has one Thread [The Kingdom Seed]
It has one hope [A ‘second’ chance for ‘all’ mankind of everlasting life on the Earth]
Now this is not some man-made ideal here, this is what has actually been gleaned from a thorough examination of the Holy Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation. On this foundation stands the Word of God!
On this foundation, Jesus and his Apostles taught the Kingdom Good News for all mankind. This has never altered!
Now the Trinitarians and others of the same disposition, claim that Jesus was actually ‘God the Son’ and that while on earth he was also Almighty God incarnate. Therefore to prove this, three scriptures confirming this are required.
(1) The scripture containing the word Trinity.
(2) The scripture containing the phrase ‘God the Son’.
(3) The scripture containing the phrase ‘God incarnate’.
So far, no such scriptures have been found in the Holy Bible; irrespective of translation!
Alexander
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Hello Trinitarians,
Here is something to consider:
The Bible is one Bible [The inspired Word of God]
It has one foundational doctrine [The Ransom]
It has one Thread [The Kingdom Seed]
It has one hope [A ‘second’ chance for ‘all’ mankind of everlasting life on the Earth]
Now this is not some man-made ideal here, this is what has actually been gleaned from a thorough examination of the Holy Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation. On this foundation stands the Word of God!
On this foundation, Jesus and his Apostles taught the Kingdom Good News for all mankind. This has never altered!
Now the Trinitarians and others of the same disposition, claim that Jesus was actually ‘God the Son’ and that while on earth he was also Almighty God incarnate. Therefore to prove this, three scriptures confirming this are required.
(1) The scripture containing the word Trinity.
(2) The scripture containing the phrase ‘God the Son’.
(3) The scripture containing the phrase ‘God incarnate’.
So far, no such scriptures have been found in the Holy Bible; irrespective of translation!
Alexander
17 As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.
18 A ruler questioned Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 19 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.
Hello Prof. Winslow
Could you please explain to me why you think Christ is not good, thank you.
By the way how is your Bible going have you finished it? And is the word Bible in the Bible?
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17 As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.
18 A ruler questioned Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 19 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.
Fat, good point and one seldom made, Christ is declaring His deity here.
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I found this on the Internet and it is not sourced. I don't know who to credit it to, please if you know post the author.
In the beginning (en arch). Arch is definite, though anarthrous like our at home, in town, and the similar Hebrew be reshith in Genesis 1:1 . But Westcott notes that here John carries our thoughts beyond the beginning of creation in time to eternity. There is no argument here to prove the existence of God any more than in Genesis. It is simply assumed. Either God exists and is the Creator of the universe as scientists like Eddington and Jeans assume or matter is eternal or it has come out of nothing. Was (hn). Three times in this sentence John uses this imperfect of eimi to be which conveys no idea of origin for God or for the Logos, simply continuous existence. Quite a different verb (egeneto, became) appears in verse John 1:14 for the beginning of the Incarnation of the Logos. See the distinction sharply drawn in Genesis 8:58 "before Abraham came (genesqai) I am" (eimi, timeless existence). The Word (o logo). Logo is from legw, old word in Homer to lay by, to collect, to put words side by side, to speak, to express an opinion. Logo is common for reason as well as speech. Heraclitus used it for the principle which controls the universe. The Stoics employed it for the soul of the world (anima mundi) and Marcus Aurelius used spermatiko logo for the generative principle in nature. The Hebrew memra was used in the Targums for the manifestation of God like the Angel of Jehovah and the Wisdom of God in Proverbs 8:23 . Dr. J. Rendel Harris thinks that there was a lost wisdom book that combined phrases in Proverbs and in the Wisdom of Solomon which John used for his Prologue (The Origin of the Prologue to St. John, p. 43) which he has undertaken to reproduce. At any rate John's standpoint is that of the Old Testament and not that of the Stoics nor even of Philo who uses the term Logo, but not John's conception of personal pre-existence. The term Logo is applied to Christ only in John 1:1 John 1:14 ; Revelation 19:13 ; 1 John 1:1 "concerning the Word of life" (an incidental argument for identity of authorship). There is a possible personification of "the Word of God" in Hebrews 4:12 . But the personal pre-existence of Christ is taught by Paul ( 2 Corinthians 8:9 ; Philippians 2:6 ; Colossians 1:17 ) and in Hebrews 1:2 and in John 17:5 . This term suits John's purpose better than sopia (wisdom) and is his answer to the Gnostics who either denied the actual humanity of Christ (Docetic Gnostics) or who separated the aeon Christ from the man Jesus (Cerinthian Gnostics). The pre-existent Logos "became flesh" (sarx egeneto, verse John 14 ) and by this phrase John answered both heresies at once. With God (pro ton qeon). Though existing eternally with God the Logos was in perfect fellowship with God. Pro with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other. In 1 John 2:1 we have a like use of pro: "We have a Paraclete with the Father" (paraklhton ecomen pro ton patera). See proswpon pro proswpon (face to face, 1 Corinthians 13:12 ), a triple use of pro. There is a papyrus example of pro in this sense to gnwston th pro allhlou sunhqeia, "the knowledge of our intimacy with one another" (M.&M., Vocabulary) which answers the claim of Rendel Harris, Origin of Prologue, p. 8) that the use of pro here and in Mark 6:3 is a mere Aramaism. It is not a classic idiom, but this is Koin, not old Attic. In John 17:5 John has para soi the more common idiom. And the Word was God (kai qeo hn o logo). By exact and careful language John denied Sabellianism by not saying o qeo hn o logo. That would mean that all of God was expressed in o logo and the terms would be interchangeable, each having the article. The subject is made plain by the article (o logo) and the predicate without it (qeo) just as in John 4:24 pneuma o qeo can only mean "God is spirit," not "spirit is God." So in 1 John 4:16 o qeo agaph estin can only mean "God is love," not "love is God" as a so-called Christian scientist would confusedly say. For the article with the predicate see Robertson, Grammar_, pp. 767f. So in John 1:14 o Logo sarx egeneto, "the Word became flesh," not "the flesh became Word." Luther argues that here John disposes of Arianism also because the Logos was eternally God, fellowship of Father and Son, what Origen called the Eternal Generation of the Son (each necessary to the other). Thus in the Trinity we see personal fellowship on an equality.
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John 1:14-18
Revelation, Jesus Christ—God’s presence became a human being and revealed the fullness of God’s identity in flesh. The glory of God (Ex 33:22 ) became visible as grace and truth which all people need. He is a greater revelation than Moses’ Law which revealed God’s guidelines for life. He shows those guidelines can really be lived out in human flesh on earth. He is God in flesh letting us see what otherwise was impossible to see.
(DSB)
Merry Christmas
ZLaw
Jesus is the son of God...first born of all creation...it was jesus who came in the flesh, not God.
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Jesus is the son of God...first born of all creation...it was jesus who came in the flesh, not God.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. (John 1:1-3 NASB)
So He created Himself?
ZLaw
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So He created Himself?
ZLaw
Well, lets look at a few things Jesus said, and what God said.
1) "The Father is greater than I."
2) "Why do you call me good? Only the Father is good."
3) “Father, why have you forsaken me?”
4) He prayed to his father all night.
5) God said, “This is my beloved son.”
6) Jesus was the first born of all creation…God was never born, or created.
These are just a few off the top of my head.
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Well, lets look at a few things Jesus said, and what God said.
1) "The Father is greater than I."
2) "Why do you call me good? Only the Father is good."
3) “Father, why have you forsaken me?”
4) He prayed to his father all night.
5) God said, “This is my beloved son.”
6) Jesus was the first born of all creation…God was never born, or created.
These are just a few off the top of my head.
The KJV: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made .
And He (Christ) is the radiance of His (Father) glory and the exact representation of His (Father) nature, and upholds all things by the word of His (Son) power. When He had made purification of sins, He (Son) sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
A ruler questioned Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.
Do you understand the concept of God becoming flesh? Do you understand that the sacrifice of a created being will not cover your sins. Is Christ NOT good in your mind?
You made him lower than the angels for a short time; You crowned him with glory and honor
But we do see Jesus- made lower than the angels for a short time so that by God's grace He might taste death for everyone-crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death.
We have a thread going on this subject that will keep us from rehashing points already made on this forum.
http://biblediscussion.org/index.php/topic,653.60.html
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I found this on the Internet and it is not sourced. I don't know who to credit it to, please if you know post the author.
Robertsons word pictures
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/john/john-1-1.html
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ZANT,
Your post does not answer these:
1) "The Father is greater than I."
2) "Why do you call me good? Only the Father is good."
3) “Father, why have you forsaken me?”
4) He prayed to his father all night.
5) God said, “This is my beloved son.”
6) Jesus was the first born of all creation…God was never born, or created.
1) Jesus is not saying, "I am greater than I."
2) Jesus is not saying, "Why do you call me good? Only I am good."
3) Jesus is not saying, " Self, why have you forsaken yourself."
4) Jesus did not pry to himself.
5) God did not say, "This is my beloved me."
6) Jesus was created...the first born. God was not created, or born.
Yes Jesus was a God. The word God is a title, not a name. Satan is the God of this system of things. God has a name, YHWH.
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Not going to redo that thread so here is a cut n' paste (not my work) Your bible is in conflict with its self because of it's interpretation of John 1
Jesus, Who is He?
Jesus has two natures at the same time: divine and human at the same time. He is both God and man (John 1:1, 14; Col. 2:9). This is called the Hypostatic Union.
Jesus was born of the virgin Mary (Matt. 1:18; Luke 1:35).
"He was born under the Law (Gal. 4:4) and fulfilled all of the Law of God (John 4:34; 8:29), even to the point of death (Phil. 2:8)."
In His death He bore the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us (Gal. 3:13). Thus in the death of Christ the sins of His people were judged (Rom. 3:23-26) and forgotten (Heb. 8:12), and the result of His act of righteousness was eternal life (Rom. 5:18).
Jesus is worshiped (Matt. 2:2, 11; 14:33; John 9:35-38; Heb. 1:6).
Jesus is prayed to (Acts 7:55-60; Psalm 116:4 with 1 Cor. 1:1-2).
Jesus is called God (John 20:28; Heb. 1:8).
He is the creator (John 1:1-3; Col. 1:15-17); Jesus is uncreated (John 1:1-3; Col. 1:15-17).
Verses showing Jesus is divine
He is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14; 8:58 with Exodus 3:14; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8).
John 1:1, 14 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God . . . 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us . . . "
This shows that Jesus is God in flesh.
If you say that John 1:1 should be "a" god, then . . .
If Jesus is "a" god, then isn't that polytheism?
If Jesus is "a" god, then how many gods are there in JW theology?
If Jesus is "a" god, then is he a true God or false god since the Bible says there is only one God (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6, 8)? If Jesus is "a" god, then why does he tell people to come to him and not the Father (Matt. 11:28)?
John 8:58, "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.'" With Exodus 3:14 "God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you."
Jesus uses the same title for Himself that God uses of Himself.
If you say that the verse is really "I have been," then why did the Jews want to kill
him--especially when in John 10:30-33 they say they want to kill Him because He claimed to be God? Where and what did Jesus say to cause them to think that?
John 10:30-33, "'I and the Father are one.' 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, 'I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?' 33 The Jews answered Him, 'For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.'"
Re: John 10:30-33, What was Jesus saying that caused the Jews to accuse Jesus of claiming to be God? If you can't say, then you don't know the text or the culture well enough to address the issue of Christ's deity.
John 20:28
In John 20:28, Thomas called Jesus God by saying to Jesus, "My Lord and My God." If Jesus is not God, then why did Jesus not correct Thomas? Three verses later it says that this is written, so you might believe that Jesus is the son of God (John 20:31). Therefore, we can see that the term Son of God is saying that Jesus is God.
Col. 2:9, "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form."
Phil. 2:5-7, "Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness."
Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son He [The Father] says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever
and ever . . . "
If Jesus is not God, why does God Himself call Jesus God in Heb. 1:8?
This is a quote from Psalm 45:6 which has the best translation of "Thy Throne O
God . . . "
Other Verses
John 10:30-33, "'I and the Father are one.' 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, 'I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?' 33 The Jews answered Him, 'For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.'"
Notice the Jews said, "You being a man, make yourself out to be God." What did Jesus say that caused the Pharisees to say that Jesus was claiming to be God in John 10:30-33? If you don't know, then you don't understand.
Regarding John 10:30-33, if you deny that Jesus is God in flesh, then you are agreeing with the Jews who killed Christ because they did not accept who He really was.
Col. 1:15-16, "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him."
Firstborn is a transferrable title and does not necessitate being first created. Proof of this can be seen where Manasseh is the first born (Gen. 41:51-52) and then his brother Ephraim is called the firstborn (Jer. 31:9).
Gen. 41:51-52, "And Joseph called the name of the first-born Manasseh: For, said he, God hath made me forget all my toil, and all my fathers house. And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath made me fruitful in the land of my affliction."
Jer. 31:9, " . . . for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn."
1 Cor. 1:2, "To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ their Lord and ours."
Why is the phrase, "Call upon the name of the LORD" (Hebrew, YHWH, i.e., Psalm 116:4) used only of God in the OT and translated into the Greek in the LXX as "Call upon the name of the LORD (Greek, KURIOS)," applied to Jesus in the NT (1 Cor. 1:2) if Jesus is not God in flesh?
The LXX is the Septuagint which is the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament done by Jews around 200 B.C.
Psalm 116:4, "Then I called upon the name of the Lord [YHWH]: "O Lord [YHWH], I beseech Thee, save my life!"
The literal translation of 1 Cor. 1:2 is " . . . call upon the name of the Lord of us Jesus Christ."
Son of God, Son of Man
Does the term "Son of God" mean that Jesus is not God? If so, then does the term "Son of Man" mean that Jesus is not a man?
Likewise, if the term "Son of Man" means that Jesus is a man, then what does the term "Son of God" imply?
The Resurrection of Christ
Jesus rose in the same body that He died in (John 2:19-21; Luke 24:36-43). Jesus' body is resurrected. We do not know exactly what His body is like, but the nature of the resurrected body is discussed by Paul in 1 Cor. 15:35-58.
John 2:19-21, "Jesus answered them, 'Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.' 20 The Jews replied, It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days? 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body."
Luke 24:39, "Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."
Right now Jesus is in heaven still as, and eternally to be, both God and man (1 Tim. 2:5; Col. 2:9).
This is important because Jesus is the High Priest forever: "where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek" (Heb. 6:20). A spirit cannot be a high priest; only a man can do that. Furthermore, Jesus always lives to make intercession for us: "Hence, also, He is able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them" (Heb. 7:25).
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When Jesus was in Jerusalem, 3,000 people were baptized. Jesus said to his father (YHWH), “Let these be one with me, as I am one with you.” Are those 3,000 also God?
You referred to the JW bible in your last post. You should not assume I am a JW…I am not. I am a member of no religion. I believe in God the father, YHWH, his son, my Lord Jesus, Gods written word, and the scrolls the bible was taken from.
Since the scrolls are what the bible is taken from, the two should match, word for word. I have examined copies of the scrolls…these scrolls are the apex of Gods word. When they found, and examined the dead sea scrolls (which are older than the scrolls they took the bible from) they were over joyed the match was perfect. The only difference they found, is the bible did have some changes.
Have you read the scrolls? You should read them. Some 50 books were left out of the bible. Books that were used by Christians in Jesus day. One is the books of Enoch. Enoch is in the bible 3 times. He was the 7th from Adam, and the great grandfather of Noah. Enoch was loved by God. In his scrolls he tells what took place before the flood, and who did what.
I am not trying to change how, or what you believe. I simply asked a question. What I posted is in the bible, and also in the scrolls. Somehow the scrolls do not match what religions are teaching. Thus I find I must follow what the scrolls say.
Read, and think on these again. Ask, "Why do they not match other scriptures I have read? What do the scrolls say?"
1) "The Father is greater than I."
2) "Why do you call me good? Only the Father is good."
3) “Father, why have you forsaken me?”
4) He prayed to his father all night.
5) God said, “This is my beloved son.”
6) Jesus was the first born of all creation…God was never born, or created.
1) Jesus is not saying, "I am greater than I."
2) Jesus is not saying, "Why do you call me good? Only I am good."
3) Jesus is not saying, " Self, why have you forsaken yourself."
4) Jesus did not pry to himself.
5) God did not say, "This is my beloved me."
6) Jesus was created...the first born. God was not created, or born.
Yes Jesus was a God. The word God is a title, not a name. Satan is the God of this system of things. God has a name, YHWH.
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When Jesus was in Jerusalem, 3,000 people were baptized. Jesus said to his father (YHWH), “Let these be one with me, as I am one with you.” Are those 3,000 also God? (Does "and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one." mean they are one flesh?)
You referred to the JW bible in your last post. You should not assume I am a JW…I am not. I am a member of no religion. I believe in God the father, YHWH, his son, my Lord Jesus, Gods written word, and the scrolls the bible was taken from. (You made the assumption that I was referring to the NWT, I was referring to your bible, be it NWT or your translation of the scrolls, If you are referring to the JW mention in the cut and paste, it is a belief reference that you hold, is it not?)
Since the scrolls are what the bible is taken from, the two should match, word for word. I have examined copies of the scrolls…these scrolls are the apex of Gods word. When they found, and examined the dead sea scrolls (which are older than the scrolls they took the bible from) they were over joyed the match was perfect. The only difference they found, is the bible did have some changes.
Have you read the scrolls? You should read them. Some 50 books were left out of the bible. Books that were used by Christians in Jesus day. One is the books of Enoch. Enoch is in the bible 3 times. He was the 7th from Adam, and the great grandfather of Noah. Enoch was loved by God. In his scrolls he tells what took place before the flood, and who did what.
I am not trying to change how, or what you believe. I simply asked a question. What I posted is in the bible, and also in the scrolls. Somehow the scrolls do not match what religions are teaching. Thus I find I must follow what the scrolls say.
Read, and think on these again. Ask, "Why do they not match other scriptures I have read? What do the scrolls say?"
1) "The Father is greater than I." (Again He lowered Himself lower than angles)
2) "Why do you call me good? Only the Father is good." (I asked you this question first, is your savor NOT good?)
3) “Father, why have you forsaken me?” (This the pain God 'Father' felt from the sight of our sins - now never having to look at them again)
4) He prayed to his father all night. (Yes He did, He was man)
5) God said, “This is my beloved son.” (And He is)
6) Jesus was the first born of all creation…God was never born, or created. (read the last post)
1) Jesus is not saying, "I am greater than I."
2) Jesus is not saying, "Why do you call me good? Only I am good." (Is He saying that He is not good?)
3) Jesus is not saying, " Self, why have you forsaken yourself."
4) Jesus did not pry to himself.
5) God did not say, "This is my beloved me."
6) Jesus was created...the first born. God was not created, or born.
Yes Jesus was a God. The word God is a title, not a name. Satan is the God of this system of things. God has a name, YHWH.
Are you a polytheism?
The Jews at the time understood Christ claim that you deny.
Dom the real problem in your theology is the you have put limitations on your god.
Tell me can your god be in two places at once in two deterrent forms, say a burning bush or an man eating with Abraham? My God can.
Would your god lower himself to take the form of a man and offer himself a a blood sacrifice to cover your sins? My God did. As Christ said this is the highest form of love. And God loved me so much that He gave Himself for my eternal life.
My God is all powerful and almighty, there nothing He can't do except violate His own attributes of righteousness. He will never lie to me or break a promises.
What are the limitations that your god has?
Now Dom there is another tread that goes into this far more then we have and I am going to as Bob to move these post to that thread.
ZLaw
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You should read them. Some 50 books were left out of the bible. Books that were used by Christians in Jesus day. One is the books of Enoch. Enoch is in the bible 3 times. He was the 7th from Adam, and the great grandfather of Noah. Enoch was loved by God. In his scrolls he tells what took place before the flood, and who did what.
I am not trying to change how, or what you believe. I simply asked a question. What I posted is in the bible, and also in the scrolls. Somehow the scrolls do not match what religions are teaching. Thus I find I must follow what the scrolls say.
There were many writings that were known by modern man before the scrolls were found, they are not scripture. There are writings that claim to be Acts of John, Acts of Andrew, Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles, Acts of Pilate, Ascension of Isaiah, Book of Thomas the Contender, Gospel of Thomas, Epistle of Barnabas and many many more.
If you read "Here's what we believe" you will see that that the bible is made up of 66 books not every writing that pertains to the time of Christ.
We study the Bible here.
Some 50 books were left out of the bible.
NO! THEY WERE NOT EVER IN THE BIBLE.