Bible discussion

Bible Talk => Eschatology => Topic started by: Bob on July 26, 2013, 07:11:03 pm

Title: The Millennium And The Second Coming
Post by: Bob on July 26, 2013, 07:11:03 pm
The Millennium

Revelation 20: 1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years ; 3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed ; after these things he must be released for a short time. 4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand ; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (NAS)


1. Premillennialism -Christ returning to earth before, to usher in a physical millennium

2. Postmillennialism -Christ returning to earth after, at the close of, a physical millennium

3. Amillennialism -Christ returning after, at the close of a spiritual, symbolic millennium -"a" or "no" physical millennium
Title: Re: The Millennium And The Second Coming
Post by: Zant Law on July 27, 2013, 09:01:27 am
The thousand years which is mentioned in this passage corresponds to Christ’s literal 1000-year reign on the earth. Premillennialism sees this passage as describing the future fulfillment of that promise with Christ on the throne. God made unconditional covenants with both Abraham and David. Neither of these covenants has been fully or permanently fulfilled. A literal, physical rule of Christ is the only way the covenants can be fulfilled as God promised.

Title: Re: The Millennium And The Second Coming
Post by: JB Horn on July 27, 2013, 10:55:41 pm
The thousand years which is mentioned in this passage corresponds to Christ’s literal 1000-year reign on the earth. Premillennialism sees this passage as describing the future fulfillment of that promise with Christ on the throne. God made unconditional covenants with both Abraham and David. Neither of these covenants has been fully or permanently fulfilled. A literal, physical rule of Christ is the only way the covenants can be fulfilled as God promised.

I agree that God does not make abstract promises in the form of a covenant. He may made prophecy that is abstract like we find in Revelations, but not a covenant.
Title: Re: The Millennium And The Second Coming
Post by: petrobb on November 14, 2015, 12:17:45 pm
The thousand years which is mentioned in this passage corresponds to Christ’s literal 1000-year reign on the earth. Premillennialism sees this passage as describing the future fulfillment of that promise with Christ on the throne. God made unconditional covenants with both Abraham and David. Neither of these covenants has been fully or permanently fulfilled. A literal, physical rule of Christ is the only way the covenants can be fulfilled as God promised.

That is not so :) The promises to David have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ. The promises to Abraham will be fulfilled in the new heaven and the new earth as Heb 11.10-16 makes clear.
Title: Re: The Millennium And The Second Coming
Post by: Zant Law on November 14, 2015, 05:01:46 pm
That is not so :) The promises to David have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ. The promises to Abraham will be fulfilled in the new heaven and the new earth as Heb 11.10-16 makes clear.

Gen 13:15.  for all the land which you see, I will give it to you and to your descendants forever.
Title: Re: The Millennium And The Second Coming
Post by: petrobb on November 15, 2015, 07:02:28 am
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Valiant - That is not so :) The promises to David have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ. The promises to Abraham will be fulfilled in the new heaven and the new earth as Heb 11.10-16 makes clear.


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Zant Law - Gen 13:15.  for all the land which you see, I will give it to you and to your descendants forever.

Precisely if it is to be forever then it could only be in the eternal kingdom, not on this earth.
Title: Re: The Millennium And The Second Coming
Post by: Zant Law on November 15, 2015, 07:28:24 am

Precisely if it is to be forever then it could only be in the eternal kingdom, not on this earth.

 Clarify please, are you saying the millennium will come after forever or before forever? Or are you saying that Christ will not reign over the millennium?

Title: Re: The Millennium And The Second Coming
Post by: Fat on November 15, 2015, 08:14:03 am
Clarify please, are you saying the millennium will come after forever or before forever? Or are you saying that Christ will not reign over the millennium?

Law, think replacement theology.
Title: Re: The Millennium And The Second Coming
Post by: petrobb on November 17, 2015, 06:07:34 am
Clarify please, are you saying the millennium will come after forever or before forever? Or are you saying that Christ will not reign over the millennium?

The millennium is NOW.  'a thousand years' was just a Jewish way of saying a  long undetermined period of time. The SOULS of the saints are living and reigning with Christ, having been raised with Him in His resurrection (the first resurrection).

There will be no future millennium on earth. Neither Jesus nor Paul nor Peter had any conception of such an idea.
Title: Re: The Millennium And The Second Coming
Post by: Zant Law on November 17, 2015, 06:42:59 am
The millennium is NOW.  'a thousand years' was just a Jewish way of saying a  long undetermined period of time. The SOULS of the saints are living and reigning with Christ, having been raised with Him in His resurrection (the first resurrection).

There will be no future millennium on earth. Neither Jesus nor Paul nor Peter had any conception of such an idea.
“Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.”
Revelation‬ 20:4‬ NASB‬‬

So the tribulation has come and gone?
Title: Re: The Millennium And The Second Coming
Post by: petrobb on November 17, 2015, 10:57:43 am
“Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.”
Revelation‬ 20:4‬ NASB‬‬

So the tribulation has come and gone?

If you mean the fantasy Great Tribulation at the end of the age which is unbiblical it will not even come. Certainly the church always has, and will continue to experience tribulation.

Those beheaded for Jesus sake, and those who had not received the mark of the Beast existed in 1st century AD. Their SOULS have been living and reigning with Christ ever since. They have been joined by others through the centuries.
Title: Re: The Millennium And The Second Coming
Post by: Fat on November 17, 2015, 01:48:07 pm
If you mean the fantasy Great Tribulation at the end of the age which is unbiblical it will not even come. Certainly the church always has, and will continue to experience tribulation.

Those beheaded for Jesus sake, and those who had not received the mark of the Beast existed in 1st century AD. Their SOULS have been living and reigning with Christ ever since. They have been joined by others through the centuries.


Matt 24

14.  "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

15.  "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand),

16.  then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.   

17.  "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.

18.  "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.           

19.  "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

20.  "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.               

21.  "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

22.  "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.       

23.  "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him.

24.  "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.                                               

25.  "Behold, I have told you in advance.

26.  "So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them. 

27.  "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.           
Title: Re: The Millennium And The Second Coming
Post by: Zant Law on November 17, 2015, 04:55:46 pm
Yep
The bible is unbiblical, I always knew it👮🏼
Title: Re: The Millennium And The Second Coming
Post by: petrobb on November 18, 2015, 03:33:12 am

Matt 24

14.  "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

15.  "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand),

16.  then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.   

17.  "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.

18.  "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.           

19.  "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

20.  "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.               

21.  "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

22.  "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.       

23.  "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him.

24.  "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.                                               

25.  "Behold, I have told you in advance.

26.  "So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them. 

27.  "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.           

Yes the abomination of desolation occurred when the Romans took their standards with their idolatrous images into the Temple in 70 AD. Then began the Great tribulation of the Jews which has been going on ever since. It is still occurring today. It included the Inquisition and the Holocaust. Nothing like it will ever be seen again.

That this is what Jesus is referring to comes out in that He had to answer the question as to when the stones of the temple building they were looking at would be torn down. His reply was that it was when the Abomination of Desolation occurred. The parallel passage in Luke leaves no doubt as to what He was referring to:

Luk 21:20  But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand.
Luk 21:21  Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein.
Luk 21:22  For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23  Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
Luk 21:24  And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


The period of great tribulation lasts from 70 AD to the time when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

 
Title: Re: The Millennium And The Second Coming
Post by: petrobb on November 18, 2015, 03:43:34 am
Yep
The bible is unbiblical, I always knew it👮🏼

only because you interpret it wrongly. :)  It is quite clear really until you try to fit strange interpretations of Daniel into it.

Rev 20 was a new vision. Revelation is composed of a number of visions each ending with the second coming.  chapter 20 is a recap of what has gone before. The release of Satan, the king of the angels in Rev 9.11. The triumph of the overcomers. The final judgment.
Title: Re: The Millennium And The Second Coming
Post by: petrobb on November 18, 2015, 03:56:15 am
Yep
The bible is unbiblical, I always knew it👮🏼

A comparison of Matt 24 with Luke 21 makes all this clear:

Mat 24:15  When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand),

Luk 21:20  But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand.

Mat 24:16  then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains:
Mat 24:17  let him that is on the housetop not go down to take out the things that are in his house:
Mat 24:18  and let him that is in the field not return back to take his cloke.

Luk 21:21  Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein.
Luk 21:22  For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 

Mat 24:19 But woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days!

Luk 21:23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days!

Mat 24:20  And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on a sabbath:
Mat 24:21  for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22-23a  And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Luke 2.23b  For there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
Luk 21:24  And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations
: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Title: Re: The Millennium And The Second Coming
Post by: Fat on November 18, 2015, 09:46:37 am
A comparison of Matt 24 with Luke 21 makes all this clear:

Mat 24:15  When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand),

Luk 21:20  But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand.

Mat 24:16  then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains:
Mat 24:17  let him that is on the housetop not go down to take out the things that are in his house:
Mat 24:18  and let him that is in the field not return back to take his cloke.

Luk 21:21  Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein.
Luk 21:22  For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 

Mat 24:19 But woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days!

Luk 21:23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days!

Mat 24:20  And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on a sabbath:
Mat 24:21  for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22-23a  And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Luke 2.23b  For there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
Luk 21:24  And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations
: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

It does make it clear, you should read it.

Replacement theology is a Heresy, teaching that God does not make unconditional promises. This all came about because there was no Israel for 2000 years and the weak church of the unfaith could not justify the belief in God's promises to His chosen people. This all changed in 1948. But there are still those who seek to push this heresy.

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Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."

Tell me about the anti-christ sitting in the temple. By the way where is this temple he sets in?
Title: Re: The Millennium And The Second Coming
Post by: petrobb on November 18, 2015, 10:41:38 am
It does make it clear, you should read it.

yes it makes clear that it all commenced in 70 AD with the great tribulation continuing on through the ages. There can be no doubt about it.

I used to argue your position but I realised when I studied the parallel passages that I was being dishonest with myself and the Holy Spirit.

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Replacement theology is a Heresy, teaching that God does not make unconditional promises.

But I do not teach replacement theology. Wake up and listen and try and unfreeze your mindset. The church is the LITERAL continuation of the true believing Israel, the remnant who would be saved. IT IS ISRAEL founded on a congregation of Israelites of large proportions to which former Gentiles have been amalgamated.

In them the promises will literally be fulfilled to Israel.


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This all came about because there was no Israel for 2000 years

Are you totally lacking in an ability to understand?  ISRAEL CONTINUED in the initial church which was wholly composed of Jews. Israel DID NOT CEASE. Don't you believe that Jesus Christ was an Israelite, indeed represented Israel as the true vine? Being made members of His body we become Israelites. Israel has continued to exist for 2000 years as Paul makes clear in Rom 11.12-24.

see Gal .29; 6.16; Rom 11.12-24; Eph 2.11-22; 1 Peter 2,9.

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and the weak church of the unfaith could not justify the belief in God's promises to His chosen people. This all changed in 1948. But there are still those who seek to push this heresy.

Nothing changed in 1948. That is a fake Israel. It is broken off from the olive tree. They are not Israel in God's eyes.

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Tell me about the anti-christ sitting in the temple. By the way where is this temple he sets in?

I presume you mean the man of sin?. You are so careless with Scripture. You read your ideas into it. The temple of god he sat in was in many Roman cities. His name was Caligula.
Title: Re: The Millennium And The Second Coming
Post by: Fat on November 18, 2015, 03:45:40 pm

I presume you mean the man of sin?. You are so careless with Scripture. You read your ideas into it. The temple of god he sat in was in many Roman cities. His name was Caligula.

Now that is rich  :)
Title: Re: The Millennium And The Second Coming
Post by: petrobb on November 19, 2015, 04:52:31 am
Now that is rich  :)

But true :)
Title: Re: The Millennium And The Second Coming
Post by: Defacto on December 23, 2016, 08:50:26 am
The Millennium

Revelation 20: 1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years ; 3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed ; after these things he must be released for a short time. 4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand ; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (NAS)


1. Premillennialism -Christ returning to earth before, to usher in a physical millennium

2. Postmillennialism -Christ returning to earth after, at the close of, a physical millennium

3. Amillennialism -Christ returning after, at the close of a spiritual, symbolic millennium -"a" or "no" physical millennium


According to the Scriptures, there is only one correct answer to your three alternatives above, and that is #1.  The premillennial view.

First of all, Jesus returns with His Church from their marriage in heaven, fights the battle of Armageddon against the two beasts, the Antichrist, the false and the ten horns/nations, allied with them, ending the seven year tribulation, recorded from Rev.19:7 through verse 21.

Then Satan is thrown into the Abyss for the same 1,000 years Jesus will reign on earth, on the throne of David, as recorded in Rev.20:1 through 6.  Fulfilling Acts 1:6, 2:29-30 and 15:16. as well as Zech.6:12-13.


Defacto