Bible discussion
Bible Talk => Bible Study => Topic started by: Fat on May 07, 2011, 05:37:03 pm
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2 Peter 1:20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
I have read some bible commentators that say these verses prove that the interpretation of Scriptures is to be left up to the church leaders. I emphatically disagree with that.
Your views?
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2 Peter 1:20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
I have read some bible commentators that say these verses prove that the interpretation of Scriptures is to be left up to the church leaders.
Any commentator or leader who says that needs to study more. Having reminded his readers of the miraculous witnesses to him personally of Jesus' baptism and transfiguration, Peter wrote that these events confirmed all Bible prophecy of Jesus:
'So then, we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation- because prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.' 2 Pe 1:19-2:1
So, if anything, Peter is saying that Scripture, like a light shining in a dark place, needs no interpretation- it just needs taking seriously.
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Any commentator or leader who says that needs to study more. Having reminded his readers of the miraculous witnesses to him personally of Jesus' baptism and transfiguration, Peter wrote that these events confirmed all Bible prophecy of Jesus:
'So then, we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation- because prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.' 2 Pe 1:19-2:1
So, if anything, Peter is saying that Scripture, like a light shining in a dark place, needs no interpretation- it just needs taking seriously.
Hello Calluna,
As man was moved by the Holy Spirit to write the Scripture so man needs the Holy Spirit to interpret the Scripture. It is the reason that we pray before we read the word asking for the Lords guidance in It's meaning.
Some will never understand the Gospel and are not meant to understand it, this is why Christ spoke in parables.
Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables ?" 11 Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12 "For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance ; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13 "Therefore I speak to them in parables ; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 "In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, 'YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND ; YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE ; 15 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.' 16 "But blessed are your eyes, because they see ; and your ears, because they hear. 17 "For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
But Calluna, the real problem I have here is the growing number of christian cults that teach that only the leadership can tell the meaning of the Word. In the group I would put Catholic, JW, and LDS which are not small denominations. I see this as a way for them to gather power to themselves and control over their followers.
But reading your response where you say that the Scriptures "needs no interpretation- it just needs taking seriously," I wonder if you believe that a non-believer could set down and read the Bible come to faith and salvation without the help of the Spirit?
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But Calluna, the real problem I have here is the growing number of christian cults that teach that only the leadership can tell the meaning of the Word. In the group I would put Catholic, JW, and LDS which are not small denominations. I see this as a way for them to gather power to themselves and control over their followers.
Hello Fat, I agree- one can usefully say that one of the signs of a cult is its tendency to arrogate interpretation to its leadership. Particularly if they misuse this passage of Peter's so erroneously.
But reading your response where you say that the Scriptures "needs no interpretation- it just needs taking seriously," I wonder if you believe that a non-believer could set down and read the Bible come to faith and salvation without the help of the Spirit?
But the Spirit works through the Bible. He wrote it! He speaks through it to those who reject Christ. People have indeed read the Bible and come to faith and salvation through doing only that. Indeed, ultimately, every convert since the Reformation has come to faith by that means.
But Peter was of course writing to fellow believers.
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But the Spirit works through the Bible. He wrote it! He speaks through it to those who reject Christ. People have indeed read the Bible and come to faith and salvation through doing only that. Indeed, ultimately, every convert since the Reformation has come to faith by that means.
But Peter was of course writing to fellow believers.
Calluna,
I have to disagree with you on this one point. Understanding of the Scriptures is only for those who are called by God and taught by God. Christ did not mean for His words to be understood by everyone.
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. ...... 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
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Calluna,
I have to disagree with you on this one point. Understanding of the Scriptures is only for those who are called by God and taught by God. Christ did not mean for His words to be understood by everyone.
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. ...... 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
That does not say that any person cannot come to Jesus. It certainly does not say that any person cannot understand the Bible, cannot be convicted of sin, either through reading it, or through hearing an evangelist or testimony. The gospel message a small child can understand.
Jesus here was dealing with a particular problem. He was known as an ordinary man- “Isn’t this Jesus, the son of Joseph? We know his father and mother. How can he say, ‘I came down from heaven’?” So Jesus replied that he really was from the Father, and it was the real heavenly Father whom he represented, and by whom he was supported. This passage is about Jesus, not about who is elect, and who is not.
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That does not say that any person cannot come to Jesus. It certainly does not say that any person cannot understand the Bible, cannot be convicted of sin, either through reading it, or through hearing an evangelist or testimony. The gospel message a small child can understand.
Jesus here was dealing with a particular problem. He was known as an ordinary man- “Isn’t this Jesus, the son of Joseph? We know his father and mother. How can he say, ‘I came down from heaven’?” So Jesus replied that he really was from the Father, and it was the real heavenly Father whom he represented, and by whom he was supported. This passage is about Jesus, not about who is elect, and who is not.
Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables ?" 11 Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12 "For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance ; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13 "Therefore I speak to them in parables ; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 "In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, 'YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND ; YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE ; 15 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.' 16 "But blessed are your eyes, because they see ; and your ears, because they hear. 17 "For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
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Matthew 13
If you'll excuse me, I do find red lettering, and capitals too, rather difficult to read. But I recognise the passage, so I'll get by. :)
Why did Jesus speak to people who could not accept him?
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If you'll excuse me, I do find red lettering, and capitals too, rather difficult to read. But I recognise the passage, so I'll get by. :)
Why did Jesus speak to people who could not accept him?
Sorry about the red type, if it is hard for you to read I'll uses another color when posting to you.
My Bible (NAS) capitalizes all quotes of the Old Testament prophesy used in the NT. In this case it is Isaiah 6:9-10.
As to answering your question, the answer is obvious in the Isaiah quote. Read vs 14 again.
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Sorry about the red type, if it is hard for you to read I'll uses another color when posting to you.
Thank you.
As to answering your question, the answer is obvious in the Isaiah quote. Read vs 14 again.
I regret it is not obvious to me.
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I think you are playing games with me now my friend , but if you mean it may be this will help you out.
For the same reason that Christ sent for the colt in Matt 21.
Matthew 21:2 Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied , and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me. 3 And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say , The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them. 4 All this was done , that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying , 5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold , thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.
Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout , O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation ; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
I think that of all the discussions with arminians that I have had over the years, you are the first one who denies that Holy Spirit is require to draw a man to Christ. The only debate has been as to what the word 'draw' meant as to 'free will'.
But hey Calluna, you call it the way you see it and may be when we are standing in front of our Lord we'll find out you are right.
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For the same reason that Christ sent for the colt in Matt 21.
Does it not seem difficult to accept that, over three years, Jesus spoke to thousands, performed miracles, healed the sick and warned of the teaching of Pharisees, just in order to show that the people for whom he did all these things were entirely reprobate? That he did all these things for just eleven men? We are told that Jesus was amazed by the faith of a centurion, that a woman loved him so much as to pour precious perfume on his feet, that the faith of those who came for healing had saved them. We read that he loved faithful Lazarus, Martha and Mary, that in Nazareth he performed few miracles because of lack of faith- which means that, elsewhere, there was faith. We read that the gospel was to go out of Israel to all people, everywhere, because God commands all people, everywhere, to repent and turn to him.
So when Jesus referred to hard hearts and deaf ears, quoting Isaiah, he must have been referring to a majority, not to the whole. That explanation was sufficient for the disciples, to explain why they were given the plain truth, because they had been chosen for their faith. Parables were needed to sort the wheat from the chaff- even those who refused Jesus could understand them, but they were not blatantly confronted with the truth by parables. The wheat, the elect, like the true Israelite Nathanael, like loyal Joseph of Arimathea, were given the plain truth, after they had responded favourably to parables and miracles. This is because God grants grace to those who welcome the gospel, and hardens those who react adversely to it.
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Does it not seem difficult to accept that, over three years, Jesus spoke to thousands, performed miracles, healed the sick and warned of the teaching of Pharisees, just in order to show that the people for whom he did all these things were entirely reprobate? That he did all these things for just eleven men? We are told that Jesus was amazed by the faith of a centurion, that a woman loved him so much as to pour precious perfume on his feet, that the faith of those who came for healing had saved them. We read that he loved faithful Lazarus, Martha and Mary, that in Nazareth he performed few miracles because of lack of faith- which means that, elsewhere, there was faith. We read that the gospel was to go out of Israel to all people, everywhere, because God commands all people, everywhere, to repent and turn to him.
So when Jesus referred to hard hearts and deaf ears, quoting Isaiah, he must have been referring to a majority, not to the whole. That explanation was sufficient for the disciples, to explain why they were given the plain truth, because they had been chosen for their faith. Parables were needed to sort the wheat from the chaff- even those who refused Jesus could understand them, but they were not blatantly confronted with the truth by parables. The wheat, the elect, like the true Israelite Nathanael, like loyal Joseph of Arimathea, were given the plain truth, after they had responded favourably to parables and miracles. This is because God grants grace to those who welcome the gospel, and hardens those who react adversely to it.
First I never said anything about only eleven men. This is something that you yourself must have drawn from your reading of the Scripture.
Christ came to speak to all His sheep and they know His voice.
Here is another verse to go along with Matthew 13 and John 6:
When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; others, Elijah; still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets." "But you," He asked them, "who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God!" And Jesus responded, "Simon son of Jonah, you are blessed because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father in heaven.
Now Peter had been with Christ from the get-go, and we know that others knew that Jesus was the Christ, so you can conclude that all those others who had come to the same conclusion as Peter were also led and taught by the Father.
Parables were needed to sort the wheat from the chaff- even those who refused Jesus could understand them, but they were not blatantly confronted with the truth by parables.
But that is not what Christ said and it is not what was prophesied.
Your argument is with the Scriptures not with me Calluna. You say the verses the limited the receivers of the knowledge to the eleven and then you say it can't be true.
There is no question that Christ was adamant that the knowledge of His truth had to taught by the Father not by man. Many have heard the gospel but few have been taught by God.
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First I never said anything about only eleven men.
How many disciples was Jesus talking to? Twelve, including Judas? If he was talking to additional disciples who had not been selected by him, then their presence shows that the interpretation of Isaiah that excludes all but those specially selected is incorrect.
Now Peter had been with Christ from the get-go, and we know that others knew that Jesus was the Christ, so you can conclude that all those others who had come to the same conclusion as Peter were also led and taught by the Father.
Of course. Anyone can be given that revelation. Indeed, many are given it, and oppose Christ.
There is no question that Christ was adamant that the knowledge of His truth had to taught by the Father not by man.
True- because it's not the issue.
Many have heard the gospel but few have been taught by God.
Bible reference?
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How many disciples was Jesus talking to? Twelve, including Judas? If he was talking to additional disciples who had not been selected by him, then their presence shows that the interpretation of Isaiah that excludes all but those specially selected is incorrect.
How many of His sheep were in the audience He just addresses?
Of course. Anyone can be given that revelation. Indeed, many are given it, and oppose Christ.
Again Christ said: Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
True- because it's not the issue.
It is most certainly the issue.
Bible reference?
The above scriptures.
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How many of His sheep were in the audience He just addresses?
A small percentage, most not even born. Jesus did not teach that only those he was speaking to were the elect.
Again Christ said: Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
And everyone can do that. Indeed, it is duty for all.
The above scriptures.
Peter knew that Jesus was the Christ before he was crucified and raised. Now, 'the sign of Jonah' is for all. So all who hear the gospel, or read it in Scripture, are taught by God. All that remains is to make the choice of following him or opposing him.
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A small percentage, most not even born. Jesus did not teach that only those he was speaking to were the elect.
But only the elect understood and that is what He was saying in Matt 13:11
And everyone can do that. Indeed, it is duty for all.
So you're saying all that heard was also taught by the Father?
Peter knew that Jesus was the Christ before he was crucified and raised. Now, 'the sign of Jonah is for all'. So all who hear the gospel, or read it in Scripture, are taught by God. All that remains is to make the choice of following him or opposing him.
Again Christ said: Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
He did not say Some.
You know calluna I have backed up my argument with Scripture and I have let you use your opinion to make your argument because I believe it is important to understand where you are coming from. But we have come to the point where I need to know where your opinion is coming from so please start using Scripture to make your points.
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But only the elect understood
And that included and includes people other than those he addressed.
So you're saying all that heard was also taught by the Father?
All that today hear (the full gospel of salvation) are taught by the Father. Taught more than is wanted, in most cases.
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And that included and includes people other than those he addressed.
Of the elect, yes.
All that today hear (the full gospel of salvation) are taught by the Father. Taught more than is wanted, in most cases.
Please back this up with scripture.
What you are saying is that if you hear the gospel you are saved. John 6:45
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What you are saying is that if you hear the gospel you are saved. John 6:45
On the contrary, hearing the gospel is only hearing presentation of choice to accept or refuse salvation.
'He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet, to all who received him, to those who trusted in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.' Jn 1:11-12
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All that today hear (the full gospel of salvation) are taught by the Father. Taught more than is wanted, in most cases.
Please back this up with scripture.
'He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet, to all who received him, to those who trusted in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.' Jn 1:11-12
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
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2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine
Indeed, and it came very soon after Paul wrote that, and has continued to this day. The most difficult spiritual concept for humanity to come to terms with is that of choice. The Spirit convicts of human sin; of the righteousness of Christ; and of the judgement of Christ on the sinful life. So, while all men are drawn to Christ because of the offer of free salvation, for many there is a cost, that of autonomy, because the will is selfish, and the mind is fearful, rather than trusting; and Satan persuades that there are disadvantages to leading a life guided by the creator's Spirit. So, rather than face a choice to accept or refuse salvation, men attempt either to put the making of a decision out of their minds, and live more or less hedonistic lives, or attempt to by-pass choice, and claim to possess faith, living more or less moral lives, at least outwardly.
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So, while all men are drawn to Christ because of the offer of free salvation
Scripture please.
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Scripture please.
'"But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."' Jn 12:32 NIV
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'"But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."' Jn 12:32 NIV
This is end time prophesy, please read in context. The NIV uses the word when but you'll find (and I'm sure you're aware of) that most translations use the word if. The word used was ejavn, Strong's Number 1437.
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 1437
Original Word Word Origin
ejavn from (1487) and (302)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Ean None
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
eh-an' Conjunction
Definition
if, in case
King James Word Usage - Total: 275
if 200, whosoever + (3769)&version=kjv 14, whatsoever + (3739) 16, though 14, miscellaneous 31
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This is end time prophesy
'"But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.' Jn 12:32-33 NIV
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'"But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.' Jn 12:32-33 NIV
I agree that is why He said it, but the translation is still wrong.
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me
Now is John 32:33 talking about the same All as John 6? One is talking about Christ drawing and the others say Father.
John 6:44
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:37
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
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'I agree that is why He said it'
Fine.
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Good by calluna, I hope you see the fallacy of Arminianism, it is against what the Lord has taught us.
Welcome to the board.