Bible discussion
Bible Talk => Sound doctrine => Topic started by: JB Horn on January 18, 2014, 06:35:16 pm
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The Bible teaches us that we have both the soul and the spirit. These verses seem to tell us that they are different even know sometimes in Scripture they seem to be used interchangeably.
Hebrews 4:12, "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."
1 Thessalonians 5:23, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
1 Peter 1:22-23, "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever."
The two Greek words used in the Bible are defined by Strong's numbers.
Soul (Psuche)
the Soul
a. the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
b. the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
c. the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death
Spirit (Pneuma)
a. the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
b. a human soul that has left the body
Looking at these definitions, in my own mind it appears that the soul only exist with man, but the spirit can exist without man.
Remembering that it is the spirit that regenerates the man and at the same time apparently regenerates the soul. When we are born again in spirit, that spirit is perfect with God and needs no regeneration, however the soul is still with man in the world and needs to be brought closer to God and further from the world.
The spirit is how you relate to God. When you are reborn, you are born of spirit. That spirit is always sinless and God's eyes, and is a completed work.
John 3:5 Jesus answered , Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
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1 Corinthians 15:45 (NAS)
So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
Let me take a stab at this.
The first Adam gave us an inheritance of an of a living soul an also doomed us to death. The last Adam gave us an inheritance of a spirit that is ever lasting.
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When God says that He has written His laws on our heart is He talking about the soul or the spirit?
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Thanks much to the opening poster. I much appreciate your words and scriptures that helped me to learn something new. I had not realized before that soul and Spirit were different. . . but now that you share this it makes sense to me.
When God tell Adam he would go to the dust again. How is it that in Daniel 12:4 they are raised from the dust? For they were sleeping in the dust. They were not incorruptible yet. They died as corruptible. But the day of the Lord will show for they shall be caught up in a twinkling of an eye and then shall they be incorruptible given a new body that like a Spirit. A Spiritual Body that will never die..
The Promised Body of everlasting life. In this life we are trained to live in the Spirit but that takes using our body, mind, and Soul but the mind is often as our soul our inner self. Sometimes referred as our Heart our inner being. The mind body heart is our soul inner being. The Spirit is our obedience and which becomes the the new spiritual body which is much different than the body we have now.
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Thanks to the confusion of the churches of Christendom with their man-made doctrines around which they fit a few scriptures, the issue of the Souls and the Spirit becomes quite confusing and yet it really could not be simpler.
Adam was provided with a perfect human body and then God breathed into him the breath of life and man became a 'living' soul, until then he was a 'dead' soul; that was it! Simple!
Now how do we know that this is all there is to it? Well why do we not let Almighty God provide us with the answer himself?
Most people along with the churches of Christendom and others who do not even acknowledge a particular faith, still believe that they have an immortal soul which somehow leaves the body at the point of death and goes somewhere else.
Yet when we examine the inspired word of God, evidence of this is nowhere to be found, in fact, Almighty God has indeed made a point-blank statement that the truth of this is quite the opposite!
“Behold, all souls are Mine. As the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is Mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.” (Ezekiel 18:4) 21st Century King James Version (KJ21) “His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.” (Psalm 146:4) King James Version (KJV) [King James I of England 1611 A.D.] 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
Well, we could not get it any plainer than that, in fact, the statement that at death even the 'thoughts' of the individual perishes; then this cancels out the 'theory' that some spirit entity goes off somewhere else. Because if it did, then it would know who it is and therefore its thoughts would not have perished!
The Hebrew word for 'soul' is 'nephesh' meaning that which has a need for fair, food and water; in other words the body itself.
So when the body dies ,it is simply the breath of life which returns to God; nothing else!
Alexander
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Well, we could not get it any plainer than that, in fact, the statement that at death even the 'thoughts' of the individual perishes; then this cancels out the 'theory' that some spirit entity goes off somewhere else. Because if it did, then it would know who it is and therefore its thoughts would not have perished!
What makes you think that the thoughts stay with the spirit? Will the sinful thoughts of the saved follow them to God's house ?
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biblebuf,
Check my wording, it is the churches of Christendom who state this; not me. In fact, check God's wording; God states that at the moment of death one's thoughts perish immediately and therefore we return to dust just as we have been created.
I can tell by your comment that you have not yet defined the difference between the heavenly anointed 'little flock' (Luke 12:32) the only ones to whom the kingdom belongs, and all the rest of mankind who after death will at the appointed very soon now; receive and earthly resurrection to then be brought up to perfection before the final trial.
Except for this anointed heavenly 'little flock', the nucleus of which was chosen personally by Christ while on earth and later at Pentecost; the Apostle Paul informs us that there will be an earthly resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous which means even then all will still be imperfect and dead in God's eyes.
The scriptural confirmation of this is in Revelation whee it states: Revelation 20:4, 5 “…And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years. 5 This is the first resurrection. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the end of the thousand years.” [This is the second resurrection (Acts 24:15)] NMTCS
So in the first resurrection these are the ones who like Christ Jesus have died in the flesh but been raised up like him as immortal spirit creatures. Therefore their thoughts are as pure as they were at their choosing. "Many were called, but 'few' chosen for this reason.
The rest of mankind in its imperfect state will over the thousand years be brought up to human perfection but only those who later remain faithful will eventually become alive in God's eyes. This is scripture talking, not me.
Alexander
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Check my wording, it is the churches of Christendom who state this; not me. In fact, check God's wording; God states that at the moment of death one's thoughts perish immediately and therefore we return to dust just as we have been created.
I'm sorry but annihilation is not that in the bible.
Luke 16:24 KJV
And he cried and said , Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
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You have a lot to learn my friend, the destruction of Satan and all others who suffer the 'second death' is just another way of saying total annihilation. As for the Abraham/Lazarus account, this is a metaphorical example and not an actuality because Abraham is still dead in the ground; proved by the fact that Jesus is stated as the first-born from the dead!
Alexander
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You have a lot to learn my friend, the destruction of Satan and all others who suffer the 'second death' is just another way of saying total annihilation.
Matthew 25:41 KJV
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed , into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mark 9:44 KJV
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched .
Matthew 25:46 KJV
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Mark 3:29 KJV
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Hebrews 6:2 KJV
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Jude 1:7 KJV
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication , and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Matthew 13:42 KJV
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 18:8 KJV
Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee , cut them off , and cast them from thee : it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
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As for the Abraham/Lazarus account, this is a metaphorical example and not an actuality because Abraham is still dead in the ground; proved by the fact that Jesus is stated as the first-born from the dead!
Hello Alex
Yes it is a 'metaphorical example', you should take the time to study it.
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said , Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said , Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted , and thou art tormented.
My salvation is secure Alex, how about yours?
Add these for thought.
Revelation 21:8 ESV
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
Revelation 20:10 ESV
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 14:11 ESV
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
Revelation 19:20 ESV
And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
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Hello Fat,
Thank you for your interesting comment, which is also based on illustrative scriptures and not actual. The reason one can be so confident in this is because as I have already confirmed by the words of Almighty God himself that a 'soul' is not immortal and its thoughts perish at the moment of death.
“Behold, all souls are Mine. As the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is Mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.” (Ezekiel 18:4) 21st Century King James Version (KJ21) “His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.” (Psalm 146:4) King James Version (KJV) [King James I of England 1611 A.D.] 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
Now anything opposite to this is in exact contradiction, yet neither Almighty God nor his inspired word the Bible; contradicts. If it did, then it would not be the inspired word of God!
Common sense reasoning also confirms that for anything to be in torment forever and ever would in the first instance need to bee immortal, which contradicts the whole issue. Also, if one had an immortal soul, then when one died, one's soul would automatically go somewhere else so there would have been no need for Christ Jesus to arrive as the anointed Liberator from Adamic death!
You say that your salvation is is secure, secure from what?
I say this because if you have studied the Bible in its entirety, you would know that at this moment in time; the only ones who are 'saved' are Christ's anointed 'little flock' to whom the kingdom of the heavens belongs; no one else! (Luke 12:31)
Since Adam, all the rest of mankind right down to today; remains 'dead' in God's eyes. This is confirmed in Jesus' words to one who was ready to follow him as one of the anointed but wished to bury his Father first; to which Jesus replied: "Keep following me, and let the dead bury their dead." (Matthew 8:22)
So you see, salvation for the rest of us is still not assured; this is confirmed in Revelation where we read that at the establishment of this anointed 'little flock' who are of the 'first' resurrection:
“…And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years. 5 This is the first resurrection. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the end of the thousand years.” [This is the second resurrection (Acts 24:15)] (Revelation 20:4, 5) NMTCS
So here we have the Bible confirmation that the rest of the dead [mankind] right back as far as Adam, do not come to life in God's eyes until the end of the Millennial Rule of the Christ. This is actually the whole point of the 'second chance' for the whole of mankind since Adams transgression in Eden.
So bottom line, outside of the anointed heavenly 'little flock'; no one will receive salvation until the end of the Sabbath Millennium when the sheep and the goats are separated and Satan along with the goats is destroyed.
This is the Bible speaking, not me.
Alexander
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Thank you for your interesting comment, which is also based on illustrative scriptures and not actual. The reason one can be so confident in this is because as I have already confirmed by the words of Almighty God himself that a 'soul' is not immortal and its thoughts perish at the moment of death.
“Behold, all souls are Mine. As the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is Mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.” (Ezekiel 18:4) 21st Century King James Version (KJ21) “His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.” (Psalm 146:4) King James Version (KJV) [King James I of England 1611 A.D.] 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
WOW! there cowboy, you lost the right to quote from these translations calling them corrupt.
As Al Quran states: "It is an undeniable fact that the Bible got corrupted over time, so our brothers should leave the corrupted Old and New Testaments and come towards the uncorrupted Final Testament."
Please use القرآن for your reference, sense you trust it as truth over the translations you quoted.
Does the Al Quran and the NMTCS define the second death? We know that the translations you're using here do define the second death, as I posted above.
FYI the most accurate english translate is the NAS.
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Fat,
So what is your point?
The translations are correct in as much as they follow the original Greek and Hebrew, the point I am making is that anyone who claims the belief in the soul being immortal when Almighty God has declared that it is not; is in exact opposition to him!
Also, I find that many a belief is erroneously stated mainly because the reader has failed to discern the context in which the scripture is written. Remember, the Bible is harmonious throughout; therefore Almighty God will not declare one thing in one place and then contradict it in another. This is why we are counseled by the Apostle Paul to acquire understanding in all things pertaining to the scriptures.
As for the 'second death' I have already defined this along with the New Millennium Translation of Corrected Scripture [NMTCS],
Oddly enough, although I am not of their persuasion, the most accurate Translation to-date is the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures. The New Millennium Translation of Corrected Scripture is and independent on-going reference for the whole of the Bible by Squires Publishing.
Check your NAS with Young's Analytical Concordance of the Holy Bible and see how accurately is checks out.
I can tell you now, compared to the NWT and NMTCS; there are many 'errors' in this translation. For instance: "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?" (Matthew 23:33) NAS
This is an incorrect translation, it should read: "Serpents, offspring of vipers, how are you to flee from the judgement of Gehenna?" (Matthew 23:33) NWT NMTCS
The point here is that your Bible like most translations is still using the archaic word 'hell' which has been used for centuries to blanket four different words with three different meanings.
e.g.
(1) HELL : (Hebrew - Sheol) The unseen state [grave]
(2) HELL : (Greek - Hades) The unseen world [grave]
(3) HELL : (Hebrew) Gehenna (Heb) (Valley of Hinnom) [Second Death]
(4) HELL : (Greek) Tartarus (To cast down) [Angelic Incarceration]
When I am often asked: "How do I know if I am holding an accurate copy of the Bible?" I reply: "If you can find the 'hell' even once in your translation, you have an inaccurate copy."
Alexander
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When I am often asked: "How do I know if I am holding an accurate copy of the Bible?" I reply: "If you can find the 'hell' even once in your translation, you have an inaccurate copy."
Hell is an English word used as a translation of the word you translate as Gehenna, nothing more. It's like the stake and the cross. the old Greek had no word for cross but history shows us that the Romans of Christ time used a cross.
Let me prove to you that your NWT is flawed, I posted a topic long time back that ask your JW's a question about a major inconsistency in your NWT. It does revolve around John 1 (a god) if you use the NAS you have one Savior and one God but the NWT gives you two of each, which their NWT says can not be.
The Jehovah's Witnesses have a savior or do they have two saviors?
From my prior post http://biblediscussion.org/index.php/topic,219.msg698.html#msg698 (http://biblediscussion.org/index.php/topic,219.msg698.html#msg698)
As most people know the Jehovah's witnesses have rewritten the Bible for the sole purpose of separating Christ and God the Father. They still do not explain how they can have two saviors when in Isaiah 43:10-11 their own translation says, "YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”
In many verses in their translation of the Bible such as acts 13:23 they refer to the Savior of Israel as Jesus. It is repeated again and acts 5:31 God exalted this one as Chief Agent and Savior to his right hand, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And in 2 Timothy 1:10 they refer to the Savior as Jesus Christ. There are many more verses in the Bible such as first John 4:14, Titus 2:6-14, acts 4:9-12 Titus 1:1-16, 2 Timothy 1:10. Sometimes when the Savior is being referred to as Christ is in lower case and sometimes it is capitalized apparently for no rhyme or reason. It appears they've concentrated so hard on trying to divide the Father and the Son that they forgot that only one, according to the Father can be the savior of Israel.
1 John 4: (NWT)
14 In addition, we ourselves have beheld and are bearing witness that the Father has sent forth his Son as Savior of the world.
Titus 2: (NWT)
6 Likewise keep on exhorting the younger men to be sound in mind, 7 in all things showing yourself an example of fine works; showing uncorruptness in your teaching, seriousness, 8 wholesome speech which cannot be condemned; so that the man on the opposing side may get ashamed, having nothing vile to say about us. 9 Let slaves be in subjection to their owners in all things, and please them well, not talking back, 10 not committing theft, but exhibiting good fidelity to the full, so that they may adorn the teaching of our Savior, God, in all things.
Acts 4 (NWT)
9 if we are this day being examined, on the basis of a good deed to an ailing man, as to by whom this man has been made well, 10 let it be known to all of YOU and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ the Naz·a·rene´, whom YOU impaled but whom God raised up from the dead, by this one does this man stand here sound in front of YOU. 11 This is ‘the stone that was treated by YOU builders as of no account that has become the head of the corner.’ 12 Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.”
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You say that your salvation is is secure, secure from what?
I was kind of hoping that you would answer this, but if you want to turn it around as a question let me give you some verses.
First is everyones favorite verses that make a promise given to us by Christ, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
Next is the words of Paul, Ephesians 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
So do you believe Alex? Are you secure in your salvation? Or maybe you think Christ and Paul lied.
So you see, salvation for the rest of us is still not assured; this is confirmed in Revelation where we read that at the establishment of this anointed 'little flock' who are of the 'first' resurrection:
“…And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years. 5 This is the first resurrection. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the end of the thousand years.” [This is the second resurrection (Acts 24:15)] (Revelation 20:4, 5) NMTCS
This is not at all what these verses represent and how you came to draws conclusion is only something that you and the Watchtower could ever dream up.
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Hello FAT,
Unfortunately you seem to be missing the point completely when it comes to Salvation, but never mind; so do most others. Christ and Paul certainly did not lie, you are simply failing to discern what is being said: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
You are reading into this that belief in Christ is the simple answer to salvation. If this was so, then you have just condemned every individual who died before Christ came and every individual who has lived since and never even heard of him.
The point this scripture is making is that while the statement is correct, you have failed to determine the time period in which it applies and the two separate groups of which it also individually applies. If you had taken the Oxford Theocratic Course with me in 1960 you would already have the answers to this and more.
I have already mention how God so loved the human race that because it was the iniquity of Satan which caused Adam and Eve to transgress that he provided a Liberator Christ Jesus to accomplish the reversal of this unfortunate incident in Eden; but only at the appointed time.
So far only the anointed 'little flock' have received their salvation due to the fact that they are of the 'first' resurrection. Because you are tainted with the beliefs of Christendom you have formed the opinion that salvation is accomplished simply by believing in Christ.
Well there will be those who have perhaps done this and yet still fall for Satan's deceptions at the end of the Sabbath Millennium, while there will be others who have refused now, yet will accept him also during the Millennial period and so gain everlasting life. So while belief in him now is commendable, it will only be those who maintain that belief on the 'last' day who will receive salvation. (Revelation 20:7-10)
Now let me clarify something here, I am nothing to do with the JWs, me teaching comes solely from the Oxford Theocratic Course under the late Professor Rupert Waverley B.Th. Litt.D. of Oriel College, Oxford. I had only just left the Army a year before and knew nothing about JWs nor Mormons nor any other movements.
This was a Non-denominational Course which taught only the Bible free from Christendoms man-made doctrines. Later i was surprised to find in 1985 that the Millennial Dawnists under Charles Taze Russell taught
the same as the scriptures. The watchtower Society on the other hand does not teach the 'second chance', or that Adam will get a resurrection like the rest of us, even their identification of the 'other sheep' of John 10:16 is flawed!
This Course has ow been discontinued due to the Pope and others declaring that 'all' faiths are correct, also I have just received a bulletin informing me that the priests of the Trinitarian Catholic Church under the Pope; have just declared that Sodomy is a 'gift' from God! Thereby confirming Jesus' words "As it was in the days of Sodom!"
Now as for drawing conclusions regarding the scriptures regarding the scriptures in Revelation, again this has nothing to do with The Watchtower Society; we learnt this back in 1960 and the scripture I quoted has already been examined and corrected since by the translators of other Bibles:
Corrected Scripture:
Revelation 20:4, 5 “…And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years. 5 This is the first resurrection. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the end of the thousand years.” [This is the second resurrection (Acts 24:15)] NMTCS
Revelation 20:4, 5 “…They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.)” NLT
Revelation 20:4, 5 …They had come to life again and now they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 This is the First Resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.) TLB
So you see, not my words, but the scriptures themselves bear witness.
Now we come to the favorite one 'hell' which is indeed and English word but which has still been used to blanket words which do not signify what the word 'hell' is said to portray. You do not have to take my word for it, research shows that these original words in their root origin have nothing in common with the word 'hell'!
e.g.
(1) HELL : (Hebrew - Sheol) The unseen state [grave]
(2) HELL : (Greek - Hades) The unseen world [grave]
(3) HELL : (Hebrew) Gehenna (Heb) (Valley of Hinnom) [Second Death]
(4) HELL : (Greek) Tartarus (To cast down) [Angelic Incarceration]
N.B.
(1) Catholic: Hell, Hebrew: Sheol, English Translation: Grave (Psalm 16:10) and more.
(2) Catholic: Hell, Greek: Hades, English Translation: Grave (Acts 2:27) and more.
(3) Catholic: Hell, Hebrew: Gehenna, English Translation: Second death (Matthew 23:33)
(4) Catholic: Hell, Greek: Tartarus English Translation: Angelic Incarceration (2 Peter 2:4)
Young's Analytical Concordance for the Holy Bible 1961 - 30th Reprinted Editon
So there we have it, Christendom in its Creed states that at his death; Jesus descended into hell [grave] and on the third day he ascended into heaven. If however, ‘hell’ is a place where only the evil an unrighteous go; then you have a big problem!
Unfortunately your reasoning on John 1:1 is also flawed. Translators around the world have checked back to the 'root' original words on this and here are a few giving the correct translation:
• 1808 “and the Word was a god” - Thomas Belsham The New Testament, in An Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text , London.
• 1864 “the LOGOS was God, This was in the Beginning with God” A New Emphatic Version (right hand column)
• 1864 “and a god was the Word” (left hand column interlinear reading) The Emphatic Diaglott by Benjamin Wilson, New York and London.
• 1867 “In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God” - The Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible.
• 1978 “and godlike sort was the Logos” - Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider, Berlin.
• 1822 "and the Word was a god." - The New Testament in Greek and English (A. Kneeland, 1822.);
• 1863 "and the Word was a god." - A Literal Translation Of The New Testament (Herman Heinfetter [Pseudonym of Frederick Parker], 1863);
• 1885 "and the Word was a god." - Concise Commentary On The Holy Bible (R. Young, 1885);
• 1879 "and the Word was a god." - Das Evangelium nach Johannes (J. Becker, 1979);
• 1911 "and the Word was a god." - The Coptic Version of the N.T. (G. W. Horner, 1911);
• 1958 "and the Word was a god." - The New Testament of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Anointed" (J. L. Tomanec, 1958);
• 1829 "and the Word was a god." - The Monotessaron; or, The Gospel History According to the Four Evangelists (J. S. Thompson, 1829);
• 1975 "and the Word was a god." - Das Evangelium nach Johannes (S. Schulz, 1975);
• 1975 "and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word" Das Evangelium nach Johnnes, by Siegfried Schulz, Göttingen, Germany
Excerpt from - From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I have also checked the word for word Greek interlinear on this and it reads:
"In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god."
The fact that a capital Theta is used for the first word 'God' and a standard Theta for the second word 'god' confirms the presence of two God's of unequal standing, just as Jesus himself acknowledged.
You seem to have an obsession for the JWs, however, I have examined their Bible thoroughly and it cheks-out with both Concordance and Interlinear; while your NAS does not!
Also, you research is lacking with regard to the word 'cross' which is found nowhere in the original Greek which actually uses the Greek word 'staurus' [stake]. It was when the Catholic Church decided to put it into Latin that they discovered that there is no equivalent word in Latin for 'stake' so they inserted the word 'crux-simplex' which means a cross without a cross-bar.
When the Emperor Constantine Magnus legalized Christianity to help him win his battles against his opponents, he used the sign of the Chi-Rho X which is far from the sign they use today. The original Christians used the sign of the fish to identify themselves, with a significant word for each letter which meant Jesus Christ Saviour, Son of God. The sign they use today is Pagan.
It seems to me that you have a lot to learn yet regarding the understanding of scripture, The JWs have not re-written the Bible in favour of anything, as for separating God from Jesus, there has never been anything different. If Jesus was Almighty God incarnate as the Trinitarians state; then at his death at Golgotha Satan would have taken over straightaway and we would not now be having this conversation.
The Christian world is trying hard to cover up the correct wordings of this verse. As it is the only verse in the Bible which came closest to the concept of Trinity, 1John 5:7 (“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one”), has been detected as a fabrication and a corruption in the Bible by biblical scholars and kept out of the later versions of the Bible. This verse in truth also does not support Jesus’ divinity. So what we find is that as more investigations are made into the Greek texts of the Bible, Jesus is seen to be losing the “divinity factor”. However it is up to the Christian brothers and sisters to realize the games that the Churches are playing with them.
I notice that you completely misunderstand the point of how both Almighty God and Jesus can each be referred to as Saviour, yet the answer is simple, Jehovah is the provider of salvation for all mankind and Jesus is the instrument of that salvation; in this way both is a Saviour.
"God has brought to Israel a saviour Jesus." Yes, this is quite correct, and if you understood the reason for this wording you would not be querying it. When Jesus arrived as the Messiah, he had to keep the Covenant with Israel for one week of years [29 CE to 36 CE]
This is why all the men that Jesus chose, were Jews, no Gentile was given the 'word' until the end of that week of years in 36 CE when the word went out to them and the centurion Cornelius was baptized.
So you see, unless read with understanding; you will get it wrong every time.
Alexander
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So far only the anointed 'little flock' have received their salvation due to the fact that they are of the 'first' resurrection. Because you are tainted with the beliefs of Christendom you have formed the opinion that salvation is accomplished simply by believing in Christ.
Get it right Alex, Christ taught repentance. Belief is more than just acknowledging His existence. You can find Christ in the Quran but not salvation.
Matthew 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
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Hello FAT,
Unfortunately you seem to be missing the point completely when it comes to Salvation, but never mind; so do most others. Christ and Paul certainly did not lie, you are simply failing to discern what is being said: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
You are reading into this that belief in Christ is the simple answer to salvation. If this was so, then you have just condemned every individual who died before Christ came and every individual who has lived since and never even heard of him.
The point this scripture is making is that while the statement is correct, you have failed to determine the time period in which it applies and the two separate groups of which it also individually applies. If you had taken the Oxford Theocratic Course with me in 1960 you would already have the answers to this and more.
I have already mention how God so loved the human race that because it was the iniquity of Satan which caused Adam and Eve to transgress that he provided a Liberator Christ Jesus to accomplish the reversal of this unfortunate incident in Eden; but only at the appointed time.
So far only the anointed 'little flock' have received their salvation due to the fact that they are of the 'first' resurrection. Because you are tainted with the beliefs of Christendom you have formed the opinion that salvation is accomplished simply by believing in Christ.
Well there will be those who have perhaps done this and yet still fall for Satan's deceptions at the end of the Sabbath Millennium, while there will be others who have refused now, yet will accept him also during the Millennial period and so gain everlasting life. So while belief in him now is commendable, it will only be those who maintain that belief on the 'last' day who will receive salvation. (Revelation 20:7-10)
Now let me clarify something here, I am nothing to do with the JWs, me teaching comes solely from the Oxford Theocratic Course under the late Professor Rupert Waverley B.Th. Litt.D. of Oriel College, Oxford. I had only just left the Army a year before and knew nothing about JWs nor Mormons nor any other movements.
This was a Non-denominational Course which taught only the Bible free from Christendoms man-made doctrines. Later i was surprised to find in 1985 that the Millennial Dawnists under Charles Taze Russell taught
the same as the scriptures. The watchtower Society on the other hand does not teach the 'second chance', or that Adam will get a resurrection like the rest of us, even their identification of the 'other sheep' of John 10:16 is flawed!
This Course has ow been discontinued due to the Pope and others declaring that 'all' faiths are correct, also I have just received a bulletin informing me that the priests of the Trinitarian Catholic Church under the Pope; have just declared that Sodomy is a 'gift' from God! Thereby confirming Jesus' words "As it was in the days of Sodom!"
Now as for drawing conclusions regarding the scriptures regarding the scriptures in Revelation, again this has nothing to do with The Watchtower Society; we learnt this back in 1960 and the scripture I quoted has already been examined and corrected since by the translators of other Bibles:
Corrected Scripture:
Revelation 20:4, 5 “…And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years. 5 This is the first resurrection. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the end of the thousand years.” [This is the second resurrection (Acts 24:15)] NMTCS
Revelation 20:4, 5 “…They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.)” NLT
Revelation 20:4, 5 …They had come to life again and now they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 This is the First Resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.) TLB
So you see, not my words, but the scriptures themselves bear witness.
Now we come to the favorite one 'hell' which is indeed and English word but which has still been used to blanket words which do not signify what the word 'hell' is said to portray. You do not have to take my word for it, research shows that these original words in their root origin have nothing in common with the word 'hell'!
e.g.
(1) HELL : (Hebrew - Sheol) The unseen state [grave]
(2) HELL : (Greek - Hades) The unseen world [grave]
(3) HELL : (Hebrew) Gehenna (Heb) (Valley of Hinnom) [Second Death]
(4) HELL : (Greek) Tartarus (To cast down) [Angelic Incarceration]
N.B.
(1) Catholic: Hell, Hebrew: Sheol, English Translation: Grave (Psalm 16:10) and more.
(2) Catholic: Hell, Greek: Hades, English Translation: Grave (Acts 2:27) and more.
(3) Catholic: Hell, Hebrew: Gehenna, English Translation: Second death (Matthew 23:33)
(4) Catholic: Hell, Greek: Tartarus English Translation: Angelic Incarceration (2 Peter 2:4)
Young's Analytical Concordance for the Holy Bible 1961 - 30th Reprinted Editon
So there we have it, Christendom in its Creed states that at his death; Jesus descended into hell [grave] and on the third day he ascended into heaven. If however, ‘hell’ is a place where only the evil an unrighteous go; then you have a big problem!
Unfortunately your reasoning on John 1:1 is also flawed. Translators around the world have checked back to the 'root' original words on this and here are a few giving the correct translation:
• 1808 “and the Word was a god” - Thomas Belsham The New Testament, in An Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text , London.
• 1864 “the LOGOS was God, This was in the Beginning with God” A New Emphatic Version (right hand column)
• 1864 “and a god was the Word” (left hand column interlinear reading) The Emphatic Diaglott by Benjamin Wilson, New York and London.
• 1867 “In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God” - The Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible.
• 1978 “and godlike sort was the Logos” - Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider, Berlin.
• 1822 "and the Word was a god." - The New Testament in Greek and English (A. Kneeland, 1822.);
• 1863 "and the Word was a god." - A Literal Translation Of The New Testament (Herman Heinfetter [Pseudonym of Frederick Parker], 1863);
• 1885 "and the Word was a god." - Concise Commentary On The Holy Bible (R. Young, 1885);
• 1879 "and the Word was a god." - Das Evangelium nach Johannes (J. Becker, 1979);
• 1911 "and the Word was a god." - The Coptic Version of the N.T. (G. W. Horner, 1911);
• 1958 "and the Word was a god." - The New Testament of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Anointed" (J. L. Tomanec, 1958);
• 1829 "and the Word was a god." - The Monotessaron; or, The Gospel History According to the Four Evangelists (J. S. Thompson, 1829);
• 1975 "and the Word was a god." - Das Evangelium nach Johannes (S. Schulz, 1975);
• 1975 "and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word" Das Evangelium nach Johnnes, by Siegfried Schulz, Göttingen, Germany
Excerpt from - From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I have also checked the word for word Greek interlinear on this and it reads:
"In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god."
The fact that a capital Theta is used for the first word 'God' and a standard Theta for the second word 'god' confirms the presence of two God's of unequal standing, just as Jesus himself acknowledged.
You seem to have an obsession for the JWs, however, I have examined their Bible thoroughly and it cheks-out with both Concordance and Interlinear; while your NAS does not!
Also, you research is lacking with regard to the word 'cross' which is found nowhere in the original Greek which actually uses the Greek word 'staurus' [stake]. It was when the Catholic Church decided to put it into Latin that they discovered that there is no equivalent word in Latin for 'stake' so they inserted the word 'crux-simplex' which means a cross without a cross-bar.
When the Emperor Constantine Magnus legalized Christianity to help him win his battles against his opponents, he used the sign of the Chi-Rho X which is far from the sign they use today. The original Christians used the sign of the fish to identify themselves, with a significant word for each letter which meant Jesus Christ Saviour, Son of God. The sign they use today is Pagan.
It seems to me that you have a lot to learn yet regarding the understanding of scripture, The JWs have not re-written the Bible in favour of anything, as for separating God from Jesus, there has never been anything different. If Jesus was Almighty God incarnate as the Trinitarians state; then at his death at Golgotha Satan would have taken over straightaway and we would not now be having this conversation.
The Christian world is trying hard to cover up the correct wordings of this verse. As it is the only verse in the Bible which came closest to the concept of Trinity, 1John 5:7 (“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one”), has been detected as a fabrication and a corruption in the Bible by biblical scholars and kept out of the later versions of the Bible. This verse in truth also does not support Jesus’ divinity. So what we find is that as more investigations are made into the Greek texts of the Bible, Jesus is seen to be losing the “divinity factor”. However it is up to the Christian brothers and sisters to realize the games that the Churches are playing with them.
I notice that you completely misunderstand the point of how both Almighty God and Jesus can each be referred to as Saviour, yet the answer is simple, Jehovah is the provider of salvation for all mankind and Jesus is the instrument of that salvation; in this way both is a Saviour.
"God has brought to Israel a saviour Jesus." Yes, this is quite correct, and if you understood the reason for this wording you would not be querying it. When Jesus arrived as the Messiah, he had to keep the Covenant with Israel for one week of years [29 CE to 36 CE]
This is why all the men that Jesus chose, were Jews, no Gentile was given the 'word' until the end of that week of years in 36 CE when the word went out to them and the centurion Cornelius was baptized.
So you see, unless read with understanding; you will get it wrong every time.
Alexander
Sorry to interrupt here but you never answered Phat's question about your teaching of two saviors. JW or not your translation is a mistranslation and teaches two saviors and two gods.
Food for thought:
12 For as the body is one and has many parts, and all the parts of that body, though many, are one body-so also is Christ.13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body-whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free-and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.14 So the body is not one part but many.15 If the foot should say, "Because I'm not a hand, I don't belong to the body," in spite of this it still belongs to the body.16 And if the ear should say, "Because I'm not an eye, I don't belong to the body," in spite of this it still belongs to the body.17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were an ear, where would be the sense of smell?18 But now God has placed the parts, each one of them, in the body just as He wanted.19 And if they were all the same part, where would the body be?20 Now there are many parts, yet one body. 21 So the eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" nor again the head to the feet, "I don't need you!"22 On the contrary, all the more, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are necessary.23 And those parts of the body that we think to be less honorable, we clothe these with greater honor, and our unpresentable parts have a better presentation.24 But our presentable parts have no need [of clothing]. Instead, God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the less honorable,25 so that there would be no division in the body, but that the members would have the same concern for each other.26 So if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it. 27 Now you are the body of Christ, and individual members of it.28 And God has placed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, next, miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, managing, various kinds of languages. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all do miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in languages? Do all interpret? 31 But desire the greater gifts. And I will show you an even better way.
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Hello Fat,
Thank you again for your comments. Actually it was John the Baptist who taught repentance because the kingdom of the heavens had drawn near in the person of Christ Jesus. Jesus on the other hand taught the "Good News of the Kingdom" which is actually the kingdom good news of the 'second chance' of gaining everlasting life on the earth for all mankind by way of the corresponding ransom of Christ Jesus.
Alexander
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Hello Zant Law,
thank you for your comment, actually if you read my words carefully: I have stated in line with the scriptures that Almighty God is the provider of salvation through Christ Jesus who is the instrument of that salvation. This is why Jesus stated "I am the way." Showing that only through him will salvation eventually be achieved, but not until the end of the Sabbath Millennium.
It is only the churches of Christendom with their faith of fear, who try to frighten people into thinking that if they do not comply now; they will lose out!
Alexander
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Hello Zant Law,
thank you for your comment, actually if you read my words carefully: I have stated in line with the scriptures that Almighty God is the provider of salvation through Christ Jesus who is the instrument of that salvation. This is why Jesus stated "I am the way." Showing that only through him will salvation eventually be achieved, but not until the end of the Sabbath Millennium.
It is only the churches of Christendom with their faith of fear, who try to frighten people into thinking that if they do not comply now; they will lose out!
Alexander
That was not an answer to the question put to you.
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Hello Fat,
Thank you again for your comments. Actually it was John the Baptist who taught repentance because the kingdom of the heavens had drawn near in the person of Christ Jesus. Jesus on the other hand taught the "Good News of the Kingdom" which is actually the kingdom good news of the 'second chance' of gaining everlasting life on the earth for all mankind by way of the corresponding ransom of Christ Jesus.
Alexander
Come on Alex this is basic. Are you just here to be controversial?
luke 5:32 "I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance."
luke 24:44 Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Luke 15:7 "I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.
Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."
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Actually it was John the Baptist who taught repentance because the kingdom of the heavens had drawn near in the person of Christ Jesus.
Say What???
Matthew 4:17 NAS
From that time Jesus began to preach and say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Matthew 11:20 NAS
[The Unrepenting Cities] Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent.
Mark 1:14 NAS
Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, 15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." "
Mark 6:12 NAS
They went out and preached that men should repent.
Luke 13:3 NAS
"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Luke 13:5 NAS
"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."
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Hello Zant Law,
Actually that is the correct answer; Almighty God is the provider of salvation while Christ Jesus is the instrument of salvation. This is precisely what the bible teaches.
Alexander
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Yes, very good scriptures Fat,
But it still does not change the fact that no one will ever receive salvation this side of the Sabbath Millennium.
That is only a teaching of Christendom. Jesus by his words was at the time in the process of choosing his anointed who from this stand-point, like the Apostles, had already repented in their hearts and this was counted as righteousness due to the fact that unlike the rest of mankind; when they died like Christ they would eventually be raised up like Christ as immortal spirit creatures and therefore repentance for acceptance was required. Remember, Jesus while on earth was calling only those from the natural nation of Israel; the Gentile nations did not come into it until 36 CE with the baptism of the centurion Cornelius by the Apostle Peter.
Even now, you can repent all you want, but unless you stand firm against Satan at the end of the Sabbath Millennium; you will like those, suffer the 'second death'! (Revelation 21:8)
No I am not trying to be obstructive, I am simply speaking scripture with understanding.
It is the same with Jesus' parables, many listened and then when he had finished; went away believing that they had understood. Jesus' Apostles however, approached him and asked: "Master, what exactly did you mean by this?"
Even today in the churches, many including the clergy believe that they understand these parables but some would get quite a shock if they were explained to them.
Alexander
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Hello Zant Law,
Actually that is the correct answer; Almighty God is the provider of salvation while Christ Jesus is the instrument of salvation. This is precisely what the bible teaches.
Alexander
Apparently you don't want to answer the question Alex, thank you anyway you have a good day.
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Yes, very good scriptures Fat,
Does that 'yes' mean that you believe the Christ did preach repentance?
I'm sorry Alex, but it appears to me you're running from the bible .
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He's got some real great ideas.
God was the builder of the Great Pyramid. The whole of the human race before the Noachian Deluge was of one language and colour - red. The first man’s name Adam, described both his colour and make up. This also explains why copper-red or amber hair was always considered sacred by the ancient Hebrews.
The conclusion then is that the originator of the Great Pyramid is non-other than the originator of the human race, the Creator himself!
The Biblical evidence for this is found at Hosea 12:9 which states: “I am Jehovah, the God of Egypt.”
Check out his UFO page.
As the interview continued, it was further revealed that these evil, demonic forces are already working to bring about the Antichrist to power on Earth. It was also revealed that this former NASA scientist was of an atheistic or agnostic Jewish background, who never held any stock in religion until presented with the secret documents about UFOs. Those papers made a believer out of an atheist. Also, these documents correlate substantially to other indicators that also point to the UFO phenomenon as being angelic/demonic and Biblical in nature.”
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He's got some real great ideas.
God was the builder of the Great Pyramid.
Check out his UFO page.
They all end up here on this forum, WHY?
Most of them, I said most not all, have one thing in common, they don't believe in the Trinity.
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Hello Macuser,
Neither does Almighty God, Jesus, the Apostles nor any of the first century Christians. The Trinity teaches 'equality' and was introduced by Satan in the Garden of Eden, while God's inspired word teaches 'balance' without which creation would fall apart.
If the Trinity was correct, we would all be under Satan now because it states that Jesus was Almighty God incarnate and therefore if he had died at Golgotha; Satan would have taken over immediately. In accepting the Trinity, you are actually accepting the teaching of Babylon the Great; the world Empire of false Religion. (Revelation 17:5)
You have evidently become entangled with the false teachings of Christendom without checking the scriptures themselves. If Jesus and Almighty God were equal, then Almighty God could no longer be 'Almighty' which means without equal. Common sense reasoning.
The Trinity is the foundation doctrine of Christendom while the 'Ransom' is the foundation doctrine of the Bible.
Jesus was created while God was not; Jesus is a creation while Almighty God is a being so therefore immediately Jesus becomes inferior to Almighty God which he personally confirms: ""...I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I." (John 14:28) "Most truly I say to you, the Son cannot do anything of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing." (John 5:19)
So much for the Trinity!
Not only does Christendom not translate John 1:1 properly, it is seen that they have been randomly translating the terms ‘ho theos’ and ‘ton theon’. For example lets take a look at 2 Corinthians 4:4.
In that verse ‘ho theos’ is translated as ‘the god’ with a small ‘g’ to refer to Satan. In the same verse ‘ton theon’ is translated as ‘God’. This is a clear ‘pick and choose’ tactic being practiced by Christendom.
The Christian world is trying hard to cover up the correct wordings of this verse.
Note (5th March 2006): The “New World Translation” by the “Jehovah’s Witnesses” has also translated this verse as it ought to be translated.
In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.
Ebrahim Saifuddin — March 3, 2007
Alexander
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Hello Zant Law, actually I have answered your question correctly and specifically; you just do not seem to understand it!
Almighty God is the provider of salvation and this is accomplished by the instrument of salvation Christ Jesus who by his corresponding 'ransom' at Golgotha has achieved salvation for the whole of the human race and the Jews who without the way he died; could never be released from the curse of the law as confirmed by the Apostle Paul. Jesus has also by this same sacrifice, opened the way to the opportunity of everlasting life on earth for all who stand against Satan at the end of Christ's thousand year reign; in other words salvation!
Alexander
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Hello fat,
No I am certainly not running from the Bible which is the only foundation we have for God's inspired word.
The English word 'repent' means to change one's mind with regard to the past for what one has done or omitted to do.
Repentance alters a person's course, it does not bring salvation; because that same person can easily alter course again! Just as it did with Judas Iscariot!
John the Baptist declared: "Repent, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near." (Matthew 3:2)
He was of course referring to the Messiah who at his arrival also called for repentance by all who belonged to Israel. They had turned away from God and were no longer under his Divine hand. So Jesus now called for those who would listen, to change course and accept the offer being held out to them, to become part of his "little flock" with the hope of immortality in the heavens as the living kingdom of God.
This offer to the House of Israel was to continue for the prophesied week of years [seven years] after which, the offer went out to the Gentile nations in 36 CE.
So yes, repentance simply means to change course; it has nothing to do directly with salvation!
Alexander
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Hello fat,
No I am certainly not running from the Bible which is the only foundation we have for God's inspired word.
The English word 'repent' means to change one's mind with regard to the past for what one has done or omitted to do.
Repentance alters a person's course, it does not bring salvation; because that same person can easily alter course again! Just as it did with Judas Iscariot!
John the Baptist declared: "Repent, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near." (Matthew 3:2)
He was of course referring to the Messiah who at his arrival also called for repentance by all who belonged to Israel. They had turned away from God and were no longer under his Divine hand. So Jesus now called for those who would listen, to change course and accept the offer being held out to them, to become part of his "little flock" with the hope of immortality in the heavens as the living kingdom of God.
This offer to the House of Israel was to continue for the prophesied week of years [seven years] after which, the offer went out to the Gentile nations in 36 CE.
So yes, repentance simply means to change course; it has nothing to do directly with salvation!
Alexander
You are correct in the meaning of repentance.
If for a moment you believe that you can be born again (saved) and not change your course you have been terribly mislead. You must follow Christ if you are of His (any size) flock.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them , I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity (Jesus Christ 0000)
He was of course referring to the Messiah who at his arrival also called for repentance by all who belonged to Israel. They had turned away from God and were no longer under his Divine hand. So Jesus now called for those who would listen, to change course and accept the offer being held out to them, to become part of his "little flock" with the hope of immortality in the heavens as the living kingdom of God.
Replacement theology is not Biblical.
Do you claim that God has defaulted on His promise to Abraham?
Who is God referring to in Joel 3?
There is a rule for this baord that if asked you must back all you claim with biblical references. (http://biblediscussion.org/index.php/topic,604.0.html (http://biblediscussion.org/index.php/topic,604.0.html)) I am making that plea to you now.
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Hallo Fat,
Thank you again for your comments, yes, I do understand the rule of the board and as it happens this was the primary teaching of the Oxford Course; without scriptural authority the words mean nothing!
I am rather puzzled why you are making this plea, because every word I speak is confirmed in scripture; it is just that sometimes for simplicity it is beneficial to give the reasoning behind a comment or issue but the scriptures are always there to back it up.
For instance, your comment: “If for a moment you believe that you can be born again (saved) and not change your course you have been terribly mislead. You must follow Christ if you are of His (any size) flock.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.”
You seem to be a little mixed up here, the only way one can be born again is to be raised up after death as an immortal spirit creature in the same manner as Christ Jesus. Just as the Apostle Paul states: “…this which is mortal must put on immortality (1 Corinthians 15:53)
Now the only way one can do this is to be ‘born again’ as an immortal spirit creature and inherit the kingdom of heaven, because these ‘chosen’ ones have been tried and tested to the limit; they therefore have received not only salvation but their status as kings and priests with Christ Jesus. (Revelation 20:6)
You are quoting the scriptures but failing to define the status of those to whom they apply. This is not replacement theology, this was prophesied in Genesis 3:15 the first prophecy in the Bible and the foundation of all that has followed.
God has certainly not defaulted in his promise to Abraham, but it does seem that you like the Jews, have misunderstood it. God’s promise to Abraham in Genesis 22:18 is indeed speaking of the ‘seed’ by means of which all nations of the earth will be blessed at the appointed time.
This ‘seed’ however, is not the ‘seed’ of natural Israel which is already imperfect and defective; the Apostle Paul corrected the Jews who thought this by stating: “Therefore only if you are of the Anointed, are you actually Abraham’s seed, heirs and instrument of the promise.” (Galatians 3:29) NMTCS
He also stated that today, a Jew is not one who is circumcised in the flesh on the outside, but one who is circumcised in the heart on the inside. (Romans 2:28, 29)
In this Paul was confirming that it was to be the heavenly Israel of God and not natural Israel who was to receive this privilege, even though some of the first of the ‘chosen’ were like the Apostles and those at Pentecost and the three thousand which were added later; all of the natural House of Israel in keeping with Covenant which was to be reserved for them for one week of years. (Daniel 9:27)
It was on this special group at Pentecost that God’s spirit was poured out by the ascended Christ and they began prophesying, while each one in the crowd heard the words in his own tongue. (Joel 2:28, 29)
Alexander
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You seem to be a little mixed up here, the only way one can be born again is to be raised up after death as an immortal spirit creature in the same manner as Christ Jesus.
Not exactly what the Scriptures teach.
1 Peter 4:6 NAS
For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.
Romans 8:10 NAS
If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Alex I understand now that you are writing your own translation of the bible, and your writings (PDF files on your web site) make it clear that you have a problem with understanding the most simple verses. I do wish you the best in your endeavors but choose not to be involved in any debates with you.
Jhon 17:14 "I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 "I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. 16 "They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 "Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. 18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 "For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. 20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
God speed.
Fat
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Thank you Fat,
I understand, but the scriptures which you are quoting are actually out of context; you are referring them to the wrong people.
Alexander
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Thank you Fat,
I understand, but the scriptures which you are quoting are actually out of context; you are referring them to the wrong people.
Alexander
IN CONTEXT
1 Peter 4:1Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. 3 For the time already past is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties and abominable idolatries. 4 In all this, they are surprised that you do not run with them into the same excesses of dissipation, and they malign you; 5 but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God. 7 The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer. 8 Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins. 9 Be hospitable to one another without complaint. 10 As each one has received a special gift, employ it in serving one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11 Whoever speaks, is to do so as one who is speaking the utterances of God; whoever serves is to do so as one who is serving by the strength which God supplies; so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
You seem not to understand what the death spoken of is referring to.
The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 3498
Original Word Word Origin
nekroß from an apparently primary nekus (a corpse)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Nekros 4:892,627
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
nek-ros' Adjective
Definition
properly
one that has breathed his last, lifeless
deceased, departed, one whose soul is in heaven or hell
destitute of life, without life, inanimate
metaph.
spiritually dead
destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins
inactive as respects doing right
destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative
Your home made bible and theology is flawed.
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Fat,
No, I do not use a 'home-made' Bible; in fact I use more than one translation according to the situation.
You seem to be a little confused regarding the resurrection of which there is actually two. The first one which Paul describes as the first-fruits which were foreshadowed by the original offerings by the Jews while they were under God's hand, applies only to the anointed heavenly 'little flock' who are the 'chosen' Israel of God and will rule for a thousand years over the rest of resurrected ma kind. (Revelation 20:6)
The 'second' resurrection takes place during this thousand year reign and includes everyone who has ever lived since Adam. The Apostle Paul confirms this when he informs us that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous. (Acts 24:15)
Now as for the understanding of death, those of the chosen ''anointed, like the Apostles Paul, remained 'dead' in God's eyes until they were chosen; when they became alive in God's eyes in readiness for their heavenly 'born again' position.
The rest of mankind however, remain 'dead' in God's eyes until the end of the thousand year reign of the Christ, when providing they hold their stand against Satan; will then become declared 'alive' in God's eyes.
“…And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years. 5 This is the first resurrection. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the end of the thousand years.” [This is the second resurrection (Acts 24:15)] (Revelation 20:4, 5 ) NMTCS
So here we have the Bible's word and not mine, that the rest of the 'dead' outside of the anointed heavenly 'little flock' do not come to life until all is complete.
No 'flaw' here, just straight scripture.
Alexander
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Acts 24:15
Yes Alex, the dead will be resurrected and the wicked of them shall spend eternity in Hell, no annihilation Alex, eternal punishment.
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Hello Fat,
Still writing your own Bible I see!
The point of the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous is that 'all' mankind will be given a second chance to receive everlasting life on earth as perfect humans, providing they stand against Satan when he is let loose for the last time after his incarceration during the thousand year reign of the Christ. (Revelation 20:1-10)
If as you suggest, that the unrighteous are resurrected just to be condemned; then there would be no point in their resurrection and no point of the judgement period of the Christ which is specifically designed to determine who will and who will not receive either life or death!
This was demonstrated plainly by Jesus in his parable of the wheat and the weeds, showing that just as they were all allowed to grow together until the harvest and then be separated; so all resurrected mankind will be allowed to grow together during the thousand year reign of the Christ as they are all brought up to perfection and then judged accordingly after Satan is released.
This is actually the whole point of God's will and purpose, the provision of the anointed Jesus and his sacrifice which was to cancel Adamic death and open up the way to the resurrection and the opportunity of everlasting life on earth as originally intended.
Yes, those who do follow Satan during this period and the Bible tells us that their number will be as numerous as the grains of sand on the beach; will be annihilated by the 'second' death [Gehenna] (Revelation 21:8)
as foreshadowed by the Valley of Hinnom outside Jerusalem where the incinerator fire burned continually.
Alexander
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John 5:28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
If as you suggest, that the unrighteous are resurrected just to be condemned; then there would be no point in their resurrection and no point of the judgement period of the Christ which is specifically designed to determine who will and who will not receive either life or death!
What follows judgement? Is it back to the grave? Why the resurrection just to return them? However if the judgement leads to eternal fire then all of a sudden the scriptures are in harmony.
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.
The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 166
Original Word Word Origin
aionioß from (165)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Aionios 1:208,31
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ahee-o'-nee-os Adjective
Definition
without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
without beginning
without end, never to cease, everlasting
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Thank you for your comments Fat, unfortunately like the churches of Christendom you misunderstand the application of the word 'judgement'; you are applying it in the sense that those who have committed evil deeds are already condemned. Judgement on the other hand, is like when one goes to court and everything has to be taken into consideration.
Now in the case of the Bible, all mankind still remains dead in God's eyes due to our imperfection and therefore under the sentence of judgement since the episode in Eden. (Matthew 8:22) Those not under judgement today are those of the 'little flock' chosen by Jesus and who have been already declared righteous in God's eyes as the Apostle Paul informs us. (Romans 6:10, 11; Romans 8:15)
Therefore the resurrection to judgement informs us that as Almighty God will judge imperfect mankind by his own perfect law, because to do this we would all have to be destroyed; he has provided a period of a thousand years which is the 'last' 1,000 year day referred to by Martha in her reply to Jesus (John 11:24) during which all mankind will be resurrected both the righteous and the unrighteous and after being brought up to human perfection, Satan will once more be let loose for a short period and those who remain faithful to God will then receive everlasting life on the earth.
The punishment for disobedience is 'death', (Genesis 2:16, 17) this has never altered; so when the scriptures speak of eternal punishment it is referring to eternal death. Unlike Adolph Hitler and the third Reich, Gos is a Gos of love and therefore would never commit anyone to eternal punishment in the way you and the churches state; after all, to suffer eternal torment in this way, one would have to be 'immortal' which rather defeats the purpose!
Another point we might care to take into consideration, is that if man had an immortal soul as the churches state; then there would never have been any need for Christ because on death man would have gone somewhere else.
Yet Almighty Gos actually states: “Behold, all souls are Mine. As the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is Mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.” (Ezekiel 18:4) 21st Century King James Version (KJ21) “His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.” (Psalm 146:4) King James Version (KJV) [King James I of England 1611 A.D.] 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
So there we are, God himself declares that there is no such thing as an immortal soul because on death, one's thoughts perish immediately!
Alexander
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The punishment for disobedience is 'death', (Genesis 2:16, 17) this has never altered; so when the scriptures speak of eternal punishment it is referring to eternal death. Unlike Adolph Hitler and the third Reich, Gos is a Gos of love and therefore would never commit anyone to eternal punishment in the way you and the churches state; after all, to suffer eternal torment in this way, one would have to be 'immortal' which rather defeats the purpose!
But that is not what the Scriptures say Alex DO I HAVE TO POST THEM FOR YOU?
Another point we might care to take into consideration, is that if man had an immortal soul as the churches state; then there would never have been any need for Christ because on death man would have gone somewhere else.
The need for Christ is to provide a way for our sins to be covered from the sight of God. Do you know what the ScapeGoat represents? You must be without sin Alex, you honor us all with your presences.
So there we are, God himself declares that there is no such thing as an immortal soul because on death, one's thoughts perish immediately!
Alexander
Sorry Alex but nothing you have posted supports you conclusion.
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Hello Fat,
Thank you for your comments, although you clearly do not understand the Bible.
You are mixing ancient Law with Christan Truth. You remind me of those in Jesus' day who listened but failed to get the sense of what they heard.
I have already presented you with the sense behind all of this, but you are reading the scriptures without understanding and therefore reaching erroneous conclusions.
I could not put it any plainer than I have, you are reading metaphorical terms as literal which when reasoned out makes nonsense of scripture.
Please post whatever you wish and we will go through it one by one, I did this at Oxford.
Remember, what I post here has nothing to do with my own origination, it comes straight form scriptural understanding.
For instance, your comment: "The need for Christ is to provide a way for our sins to be covered from the sight of God. Do you know what the Scape Goat represents? You must be without sin Alex, you honor us all with your presences."
To begin with, the need for Christ was to provide a corresponding ransom for Adamic sin whereby without it we would all be still under the sentence of death without the hope of a resurrection. Also, although the death of Christ would have been sufficient in any way shape or form for the Gentile nations, it had to be exactly in the manner that it was to release the Jew from the 'curse' of the Mosaic Law which condemned them every day for their imperfections.
The Apostle Paul explains this in his letter to the Hebrews, showing the by his death in the same manner as the sacrifice of the lamb down in Egypt and its blood smeared on the door posts to enable the angel of death to pass over; this was a foreshadow of the execution of the Lamb of God whose blood smeared his instrument of execution thereby releasing the Jew from the curse of the Law and mankind from Adamic death. To confirm this the Apostle Paul states: "Christ our passover has now been sacrificed." (1 Corinthians 5:7)
So toady both the Jew and the Gentile are no longer under either the condemnation of the Mosaic Law nor the condemnation of Adamic death. But except for the anointed 'little flock' chosen specially by Christ, the rest of us still remain 'dead' in God's eyes. (Matthew 8:22)
You continue: "Sorry Alex but nothing you have posted supports you conclusion."
On the contrary, so far you have produced nothing scripturally to contradict what I have presented scripturally.
For instance, you state: "You must be without sin Alex, you honor us all with your presences."
Now I do not know where you have got that one from, but John states: "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8)
So here John is informing us that while we all remain imperfect this side of Christ's thousand year reign, we will continue to remain imperfect and 'dead' in God's eyes. This is confirmed by the scripture: "The rest of the dead [mankind] did not come to life until the thousand years were ended." (Revelation 20:5)
Although we have now come under the grace of God through the ransom sacrifice of Christ Jesus, no salvation will be achieved until after the resurrection and thousand year reign of the Christ. Then at the end of this, those who prove themselves worthy will be given everlasting life on earth; while the rest of unworthy mankind will enter the 'second death' [Gehenna] Revelation 21:8
One cannot be in danger of the 'second death' until resurrected from the first death.
You have also failed to confirm what you actually believe concerning God's will and purpose for the human race.
Alexander
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Hello Fat,
Thank you for your comments, although you clearly do not understand the Bible.
You are mixing ancient Law with Christan Truth. You remind me of those in Jesus' day who listened but failed to get the sense of what they heard.
You consider the 10 Commandments ancient law with no relevance today?
Romans 2
7 eternal life to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but wrath and indignation to those who are self-seeking and disobey the truth, but are obeying unrighteousness; 9 affliction and distress for every human being who does evil, first to the Jew, and also to the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, first to the Jew, and also to the Greek. 11 There is no favoritism with God. 12 All those who sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all those who sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For the hearers of the law are not righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous. 14 So, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, instinctively do what the law demands, they are a law to themselves even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts. Their consciences testify in support of this, and their competing thoughts either accuse or excuse them
For instance, your comment: "The need for Christ is to provide a way for our sins to be covered from the sight of God. Do you know what the Scape Goat represents? You must be without sin Alex, you honor us all with your presences."
To begin with, the need for Christ was to provide a corresponding ransom for Adamic sin whereby without it we would all be still under the sentence of death without the hope of a resurrection. Also, although the death of Christ would have been sufficient in any way shape or form for the Gentile nations, it had to be exactly in the manner that it was to release the Jew from the 'curse' of the Mosaic Law which condemned them every day for their imperfections.
Is this message only for Jews? Is God's law in your heart?
Galatians 3:13 CSB
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, because it is written: Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.
Romans 7:7 CSB
[Sin's Use of the Law] What should we say then? Is the law sin? Absolutely not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin if it were not for the law. For example, I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, Do not covet.
The Apostle Paul explains this in his letter to the Hebrews, showing the by his death in the same manner as the sacrifice of the lamb down in Egypt and its blood smeared on the door posts to enable the angel of death to pass over; this was a foreshadow of the execution of the Lamb of God whose blood smeared his instrument of execution thereby releasing the Jew from the curse of the Law and mankind from Adamic death. To confirm this the Apostle Paul states: "Christ our passover has now been sacrificed." (1 Corinthians 5:7)
I don’t concede that Paul wrote Hebrews, but it is a moot point.
1 Corinthians 5
5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? 7 Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
Sorry again your choice of scripture has nothing to do with the point you are trying to make “releasing the Jew from the curse of the Law and mankind from Adamic death.”
So toady both the Jew and the Gentile are no longer under either the condemnation of the Mosaic Law nor the condemnation of Adamic death. But except for the anointed 'little flock' chosen specially by Christ, the rest of us still remain 'dead' in God's eyes. (Matthew 8:22)
Matthew 8
21 Another of the disciples said to Him, "Lord, permit me first to go and bury my father." 22 But Jesus said to him, "Follow Me, and allow the dead to bury their own dead." 23 When He got into the boat, His disciples followed Him.
Again you twist in the wind, your verse in not relevant to your point.
You continue: "Sorry Alex but nothing you have posted supports you conclusion."
On the contrary, so far you have produced nothing scripturally to contradict what I have presented scripturally.
For instance, you state: "You must be without sin Alex, you honor us all with your presences."
Now I do not know where you have got that one from, but John states: "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:
So here John is informing us that while we all remain imperfect this side of Christ's thousand year reign, we will continue to remain imperfect and 'dead' in God's eyes. This is confirmed by the scripture: "The rest of the dead [mankind] did not come to life until the thousand years were ended." (Revelation 20:5)
Although we have now come under the grace of God through the ransom sacrifice of Christ Jesus, no salvation will be achieved until after the resurrection and thousand year reign of the Christ. Then at the end of this, those who prove themselves worthy will be given everlasting life on earth; while the rest of unworthy mankind will enter the 'second death' [Gehenna] Revelation 21:8
No one is disputing that salvation comes at the time judgement, for we (Christians) will not be judged for our sins that day. (which is our salvation) But the scripture tell us that we have received that promise.
luke 19
9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.
luke 2
29 "Now Lord, You are releasing Your bond-servant to depart in peace, According to Your word; 30 For my eyes have seen Your salvation, 31 Which You have prepared in the presence of all peoples, 32 A LIGHT OF REVELATION TO THE GENTILES, And the glory of Your people Israel."
Acts 28:28
"Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles ; they will also listen."
Romans 11:11
I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
Two things that I draw from your comments. First is you believe there is no consequences at time of judgment. I don't understand why you believe there even has to be a judgment, if that judgment has no consequences to the outcome. If one is to be taken from the ground and then judged and return to the ground.
Second, if you believe that Christ's crucifixion was not to cover all transgressions against the law, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that you believe salvation from the law comes from personal conduct, sometimes referred to as works.
I'll post a few verses as you requested and you can point out which verses don't agree with your doctrine and tell me that they are only metaphoric in nature.
This verse is repeated three times in Mark. Also found in Is 66
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Your verses:
Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;; Mat 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."; Mat 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.; 2Th 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,; Rev 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.; Rev 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."; Mat 25:30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth; 1Th 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.; Rev 2:11 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'; Joh 5:29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.; Dan 12:2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.; Mat 23:33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?; Jam 5:20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.;
And of course the mother of all metaphoric scripture Luk 16:23-26.
"In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' 25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'
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Hello Fat,
Thank you again for your reply and material. The Ten Commandments were given specifically to the nation of Israel along with the rest of the Mosaic Law for te purpose of showing the Jews that as imperfect people they would by no means be able to keep them and so to prevent their being cursed by these perfect laws a Passover sacrifice had to be performed every year as a recompense while the goat of Azazel was used as a carrier of those sins into the wilderness.
Now this actually foreshadowed the greater mediator Christ Jesus who acted both as the goat for Azazel and carried away the curse of Adamic sin and released the Jews from the curse of the Mosaic Law. As the Apostle Paul states: "Christ our passover has no been sacrificed." (1 Corinthians 5:7)
So the point here is that anyone who puts himself under the Ten Commandments today, also puts himself squarely back under the Mosaic Law which in the case of a Gentile; this makes his a Jewish proselyte.
Jesus on the other hand gave us instead, two principles by which to live, love Jehovah your God and love your neighbour as yourself. In keeping these two the whole of the law is fulfilled.
The Mosaic Law was a negative statute of things not to do, whereas the new Commandments which Jesus has given us are each of a positive nature. He also gave us an additional Commandment which also was not contained in the Ten Commandments, love on another.
The biggest problem for most people today is that they do not understand the specific reason for Christ Jesus and what he has accomplished for the whole of mankind. The scriptures which you are quoting are excellent, but you seem to be putting your own construction upon them which is not in harmony with the Bible.
You also seem to be missing the points rel event to the scriptures which I have quoted.
The Bible is simple to understand, once one has acquired an accurate knowledge of it from Genesis to Revelation.
You have quoted some scriptures which absolutely confirm what I have posted, but you seem unable to reason this out.
As for Paul, he wrote Hebrews in Rome in A.D. 61, covering an undetermined period. The nature of its content is evidence in itself that this was written specifically for the Hebrew nation but also with the followers of Christ in mind. In fact the pattern and parallel of events which he describes confirms the that all that happened to the nation of Israel while under the hand of God; has been fulfilled by Christ Jesus and other things which have since taken place.
Like the scriptures which you have now quoted, the Mosaic Law which was written along with the Ten Commandments on stone, has now been replaced by these new Commandment Laws which today is written in men's hearts.
Again you have misread my words concerning the sacrifice of Christ which had a two part fulfillment in that as I mentioned; his death in any way shape or form would have been sufficient for us the Gentiles, but as the Jews were already under the 'curse' of the Mosaic Law, then the curse of this Law had to be nailed to a post in the form of a sacrifice and the blood splashed on that post as it was foreshadowed down in Egypt years before and later as the yearly atonement sacrifice for Jewish sin. In fact, this is what the Bible is all about!
It is all there in Romans and Hebrews, too much to post here.
Matthew 8
21 Another of the disciples said to Him, "Lord, permit me first to go and bury my father." 22 But Jesus said to him, "Follow Me, and allow the dead to bury their own dead."
This scripture is actually very relevant once you understand the position of mankind in the eyes of God since the Edenic episode. In fact this is how we are able to tie in Jesus' words with Revelation 20:5 which confirms the fact that since the episode in Eden, as Paul also says, sin entered into the world through mankind and death through sin. Therefore until mankind again becomes a perfect human race at the end of Christ's thousand year reign, we are all still 'dead' in God's eyes. So I am not twisting in the wind as you put it, unless you can find anything to the contrary. The only point here is that if you can, then the Bible is contradicting itself and therefore not worth the paper it is written on. God however, does not contradict himself.
Now here is an example of your confusion: No one is disputing that salvation comes at the time judgement, for we (Christians) will not be judged for our sins that day. (which is our salvation) But the scripture tell us that we have received that promise.
An excellent scripture, but one one that applies neither to you, me nor anyone outside of the anointed 'little flock'.
They will not be judged for any sins they might have had, because through their being chosen by Christ Jesus to rule in the heavens; they are the ones who will be doing the judging!
This is what I find with the churches and most people today, they quote scriptures out of context and in accord with the wrong individuals. Because of this, they remain divided!
The point I made concerning a so-called immortal soul is born out by Almighty God himself who confirms that there is no such thing: "“Behold, all souls are Mine. As the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is Mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.” (Ezekiel 18:4) 21st Century King James Version (KJ21) “His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.” (Psalm 146:4) King James Version (KJV) [King James I of England 1611 A.D.] 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
If there was, he would never have mad this statement, which as I also pointed out that if some of the scriptures reasoned by you concerning everlasting punishment in 'hell' as the churches put it; then one would have to be immortal to last forever!
Common sense and reasoning is something the churches are very short of!
You quote scriptures, but without explanation they are not of much worth due to the necessity of identification of application and context.
Alexander
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This thread is closed because has become circular.
Note to those who are trying to make sense of this: Atheist believe in the annihilation of the human being at the time of death, this is no different than an animal dying. If Alexander was correct it means a nonbeliever could not sin in the eyes of God, for nonbeliever would not be under the laws of Moses nor under the commandments of Christ to His followers. The belief in annihilation gives comfort to those who do not believe the gospel in the same way it gives comfort to those who do not believe in a creator.
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