Bible discussion
Bible Talk => Eschatology => Topic started by: OlympicClimb12 on January 26, 2014, 11:37:26 pm
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Ok there seems to be a division on End times Bible prophecy the most common Bible views that Christians often espouse. I don’t however want to expound on some of the most craziest End time view points I have seen at some other posting boards.. its because of these strange views I suddenly had stopped posting in the Bible prophecy section leaving the board altogether.. Apostasy is making its way onto many of these boards. Here I would like to stick with 4 of the main common mainstream Bible prophecy views. Each person will decide which of these fits them best..
1. A Pre Trib Rapture. These Christians Bellini in a literal 7 year tribulation. They believe before this period begins Christ will take the Church on an unknown hour. They will be raptured taken into the third Heaven. There they will wait for 7 years. When Christ returns they will come back with him to rule on the Earth for1000 years. Does this fit your view points? You pre trib? If so exaplin why with verses to support this.
2. Next is Mid Trib Rapture. . This group believes that either just before the Antichrist is revealed or immediately after he is revealed they will be Raptured or about 3 and a half years. They also believe during this time they will be in the third Heaven when the seals trumpets and bowls are happening on the Earth. They will return with Christ ruling with him. Does this belief describe your Biblical view points? Give explanations and scriptures as to why.
3. The third is Post Trib Rapture. This group believes Christians will go through the 7 year trib. Yet more technically the 3 and a half great trib. They will endure these things on Earth. They will see the coming Antichrist. They will see the seals trumpets and bowls. . They will be here till the end of the trib till Jesus returns a second time. Then they will be Raptured to meet Jesus and immediately come down with him.. Does this belief describe your Biblical view points? Give explanations and scriptures as to why.
4. Last one is Preterism. Preterism is a growing belief among Protestant Church. This teaching believes that after 3 and a half year Jesus had died that the 70 weeks of Daniel was fulfilled. That when Stephen was stoned to death was the fulfillment of the end of this Prophecy also begins. These Christians believe that Jerusalem is the great Harlot in Rev.17 from 66 to 70 Ad. They say Matthew 24 is the abomination Nero who is also the Beast in Revelation. They say he is commonly called the Beast. That all Rev from 1 Ad to 70 AD the destruction of the temple can be explained in the symbolic evidence of John's visions. So now they only believe the second resurrection and the final judgment is the only thing to look forward. They don’t believe in a great trib. They don’t believe in a future antichrist. They believe it all happened in 70 AD..
Does this describe your belief of the Bible and why and what scriptures to support these views? Later on I will share my Bible Prophecy view points. Since I am a new member I think it is fair to ask others first how they feel about God’s clock and the timing of these things.Let's see where we go from here.
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2 Thessalonians 2.7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work ; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
Will the Holy Ghost be removed from the Church and leave it unprotected?
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I can go pre-trib or mid-trib. But post-trib is un-Biblical.
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For now I am just going to say that for years I used to be Pre Trib rapture. . I followed Tim La Hayes and other books. That including John Hagees coming of the Antichrist.
Several years ago I questioned my belief. . Is this Pre trib Rapture really true? I searched the scriptures from chapter to chapter. I did not find a Pre trib Rapture using context way of study. . I came to found a large number of Christians were also once Pre trib and became Post trib just like I did using this method of study. . The deal is Pre trib is much believed because it seems like the most safe answer. Everyone wants to feel safe.. It once did sound logical. I used to defend Pre trib.
Today I share Post trib to make others ready. . If they think they will be gone for what reason is for them to get prepared for anything? Do you know the Devil does not want Christians to be on guard? The best way to attack your enemy is by surprise.. The Antichrist does not want Christians to know they will be here. If they did they would be warning their friends.
Instead many of these Christians go to Church thinking they will leave their friends behind. Planes crashing, Helicopters crashing, cars crashing, you believe this is what is going to ignite the beginning of the trib? That is Tim LaHayes version and movies. But that is not the way things are going to happen.
You look for a secret Rapture but not looking for these events coming up in the future. . They keep telling you you're not going to be here. You will be safe in Heaven.. The antichrist does not want a bunch of whistle blowers. . What if Christians believe they would be gone? Fine if they can believe that they don’t need to blow the whistle on the antichrist in the future. . They will say not me. I don’t have to worry. Those non believers will stay here. If that is what you believe. There is more in store.
I will share more about Post Trib Rapture why it is Biblical. Once I thought post trib was impossible to to happen. . Today I believe it is most likely what is going to happen. . If Christians actually are gone 7 years before the trib I am going to be surprised. Because in scripture I can't find Pre trib Rapture.At least not the way I study today..
My first evidence to support Post Trib Rapture in Matthew 24. I don’t see in the Olivet Discourse Jesus talking about a Rapture that occurs before any mentioning of the abomination of Desolation in Judea. . While it is perhaps a synopsis view of the signs of the end of the age Jesus would not skip this important event. . This is where I begin.. I never knew 16years later I would be challenging John Hagees End time Prophecy view.. Even as 10 years from now I don’t know what will be happening. . Need to take every thing day by day. Step by step. . That's how we ought to study.
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1) One problem that you have with the Post-trib rapture is that everyone will know the day it is going to happen. Why? First because you will be able to count from the time the two witnesses appear. At that day you will know you will have 3 1/2 years left of the tribulation and then comes the day of our Lord.
1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.
7 Now when they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.
Notice that area of the temple will be treaded on by the Gentiles for 42 months. Also for one thousand two hundred and sixty days (42 months) God raises up two witnesses to prophecy.
2) Second exactly half way into Daniel’s 70th week, at the 3 ½ year mark, the Antichrist will walk into the rebuilt temple, in Jerusalem, on the Temple Mount and proclaim himself God. ( Dan 9:27, Dan 11:31, Mt 24: 15 )
Only believers will be looking for Christ to return. At the 3 1/2 year point of the tribulation any believers would know that they were at the halfway point and that there was only 1260 days until the return of Christ to rule over the earth. For these believers to remain on earth counting down the 1260 days would not hold up to biblical prophecy.
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Thanks for sharing this aspect of Revelation. These 2 Witnesses kind of scare me. I would not purposely want to be against them. I kind of figured this was going to become a debate. Pre and post is the most often conflicted end time views with Mid trib in the mix to solve the solution who cant’ decide Pre or Post aspect.
Well I am not counting 1260 days alone. Now remember the 2 witnesses are killed at a specific moment therefore they won’t be here the 3 ½ years.
To understand the fulfillment of the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 we also must understand to bring Daniel 12 into the picture because it’s in Daniel 12 that explains exactly what happens in the last 3 ½ years. This chapter can also be understood with Matthew 24 side by side. See Daniel 12:1 matches Matthew 24:21. Now Daniel 12:2 matches Matthew 24:30-31. Then the rest of the verses in Daniel 12 shows us the picture between Matthew 24:15-31.
Lastly, if you connect these chapters with 1Thess.&2 Thess. Books the order of events will seem clearer.
When I compare these events in these 4 Books it’s in the same order.
First the falling away, man of perdition to be revealed, the 2nd Coming of Christ and the rapture happened after these things
according to 2Thess. 2:1-3.
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Thanks for sharing this aspect of Revelation. These 2 Witnesses kind of scare me. I would not purposely want to be against them. I kind of figured this was going to become a debate. Pre and post is the most often conflicted end time views with Mid trib in the mix to solve the solution who cant’ decide Pre or Post aspect.
Well I am not counting 1260 days alone. Now remember the 2 witnesses are killed at a specific moment therefore they won’t be here the 3 ½ years.
To understand the fulfillment of the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 we also must understand to bring Daniel 12 into the picture because it’s in Daniel 12 that explains exactly what happens in the last 3 ½ years. This chapter can also be understood with Matthew 24 side by side. See Daniel 12:1 matches Matthew 24:21. Now Daniel 12:2 matches Matthew 24:30-31. Then the rest of the verses in Daniel 12 shows us the picture between Matthew 24:15-31.
Lastly, if you connect these chapters with 1Thess.&2 Thess. Books the order of events will seem clearer.
When I compare these events in these 4 Books it’s in the same order.
First the falling away, man of perdition to be revealed, the 2nd Coming of Christ and the rapture happened after these things
according to 2Thess. 2:1-3.
Two things come to mind when reading your post, first is you believe that the rapture and the second coming will happen at the same time, secondly that you are replacing the Jews with the church. I hope that you are not into replacement theology, I believe this is heresy.
If you believe that the rapture and the second coming of Christ are the same then your Bible has a conflict in it.
This is the rapture not the second coming, there is nothing here about Christ returning to Earth.
1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Cor 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet ; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
Matthew 24:44 "For this reason you also must be ready ; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.
Again take note of the tribulation rapture of the two witnesses you’ll see that they had been prophesying for 1260 days after the temple is rebuilt. You’re telling me that you won’t notice two guys turning water into blood or that something looking like the temple is standing in the middle of Jerusalem?
Rev 11:1 Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff ; and someone said, "Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. 2 "Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations ; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months. 3 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies ; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way. 6 These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying ; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire. 7 When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. 9 Those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate ; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth. 11 But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet ; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them. 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." Then they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them.
Like a thief in the night!
Sorry my friend on this point we must disagree, it is one point where the majority of Christians actually get it right. ;D
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Hi Fat I feel a little bit better now. I was tired and dizzy since yesterday. Now my neck and head kind of hurt but not to bad over all.
Well if you are Pre trib rapture and you say Post trib is not a true teaching you say that because you hold to the one view point which you believe to be more true than the other view. Because you know you can not be both Pre trib and Post trib at the same time. So in order to prove one of them is right is also to prove the other one is not . .
So in knowing this I want to let you know I am ‘Not’ personally attacking you. . Rather I must try if I can to show why I believe Post Trib is more of a correct view point than Pre trib rapture. Yet I apologize Fat because in this kind of debate it is difficult not to offend others. But as much as we don’t like to oppose even our friends we as Paul still need to stand for what we believe is being taught in God’s words. . I will try my best to be sportsman ship debate on this topic. I debate Pre trib. . Not words personally against you. So let us continue in this debate Pre and Post trib and anyone Mid trib. . Preterism would have to be in another thread itself since it is a complete different Biblical view point.
I began to learn about God in 1997 when I first started getting more serious to reading the Bible. I began to watch TBN on TV. I got a few books one from John Haggee the coming of the Antichrist. One from Pat Robertson the World order. Bruce and Stan End time for dummies. This I used to follow the WPM with Ed Hindson and Tim La Hayes with Thomas Ice.
But I was a follower back then. I used to believe every Church program on TV. I did not know the difference between Christian and Catholic Churches. . I thought Baptist and Pentecostal were the same thing.
In saying this I became Pre trib Rapture because that is only what I knew and heard. . while I read books and new letters I did not that much look up scriptures. I just believed what I was told. . I guess it was a bad habit not to look this up. But since they printed it on the page why look up what they already put in their letters?
On a certain forum some had challenged my Pre trib rapture views. Yeah I told them Jesus will return before the trib . and then bring the Church back 7 years later. What is you proof they asked? This is where I got in trouble. I actually did not know how to teach pre trib. So I just went to Rev 3:10. I said you know because of Noah's flood we can't be here. I could not protect myself. So I wrote to WPM where Tim La hayes was located. I told them look I am stuck on this posting forum . I am trying to defend pre trib rapture. Can you help me? They wrote me back and said they can't do that. They are not going to get involved on a minor posting board disagreement. To think I was going to get help from Tim La Hayes or Ed Hindson they had backed out. . So I was on my own. .
Then Bill said something did you know that Pre trib did not exist for centuries? I said what are you talking about? He said let me share with you some links. I just ended up deleting them. Come on you can’t prove Hal Lindsay Greg Laurie that they are wrong. So I kept defending pre trib even not being that well in the Bible at that time. .
Some time had passed and I was on another forum with all Pre ttrib believers. . they kept saying Jesus is going to be back soon. No matter a quake a war story they did not seem to care much except being Rapture. This is what got me to start reading in a new method. . I can’t just open the pages and scripture to believe them just because they told me. I must believe God first. So I must read every verse to take notice where God stands on these things. . after some study I then concluded I am now Post Trib Rapture. With the books I have read in the Bible I am not convinced of a seven year Early Rapture. .
Where does Jesus or Paul actually say and the Lord said seven years before the end will come the rapture? I began to use Matt 24 as an accurate testimony how these things should happen Dispensational understanding of God’s word. . That all other scriptures had to agree with the Olivet Discourse. Because you will notice Matt 24 is accurate and plain in language. I read all the way to verse fifteen. There is the abomination. Now where is the mention of this Pre trib Rapture? If it is not here in this testimony then there is already a great problem why Jesus would not mentioned it here..
So I read on to 1 and 2Thess. Please notice that 1 Thessalonians and 2 Thessalonians are 2 letters. It is a 2 part letter. . therefore to understand letter 1 I also read letter 2 for more explanation. . Because 1Thess 4:16-17 to be caught up with Jesus. . Notice this happens on the “Last Trumpet’. What is the last Trumpet in Revelation? That is the Seventh Trumpet. So if this is the last trumpet that means it happens at the End of the age. . the End of age happens at the End of the 3 and a half great trib period.
The first 3 and a half were fulfilled when Jesus was here for 33 and a half years to understand Daniel 9 for this will be cut off but not for himself only. And the end shall come as a Flood and of desolation. So the last 3 and half year the Great trib happens as Noahs flood which is the Son of man coming in the clouds in his glory. So it is only the last 3 and half year that will fulfill this prophecy of Daniels 70 weeks..
Yet there will be a 42 months that proceeds before the great tribulation. This first 42 months brings forth the first Beast in Revelation. He is of world Nations represented by ten Rulers. These 10 will be the most powerful among the first Beast world unity. Then from ten shall come 2 horns He is the second Beast that will take over the first Beast. He will rule over all nations for 3 and a half years. . Rev 13. He will cause all small great free and slave to have a mark place on their right hand or forehead the number to this wisdom. .
Christians will be here during this time. And why is that? Because in 1Thess 1:4 they are gathered with Jesus. But this verse does not say they went up to the Third Heaven. Neither did it say they went down either. It only says they gathered with him and shall ever be with him. . It take 2Thess 2 to answer what took place in chapter 1 or letter 1. The Thess. church was trouble when the gathering to occur? First they were told those who died are a sleep and will be raised on the last day. . Now in chapter 2 Paul gets more specific in verses 1 2 and 3 saying.
Brethren do not be shaken or trouble in your mind. For the day of the Lord and the gathering to be with him shall be no means happen not even by any letter written by anyone. And neither by any spirit or angel. Do not let any man deceive you. For this can not happen until the apostacy happens first and then shall the man of perdition be revealed..
There we got. That is the answer. This is not a parable. This is not symbolic, metaphoric or allegory. This is plain words in simple language. Notice Paul says both the gathering and the day of the Lord can not happen till these 2 happen first. If it also says gathering along with the day of the Lord side by side how can we question this or change the order of this?. We were told not even to let any man deceive us telling us these events would be in another order. Notice also Paul doesn't say and first there shall be a rapture then apostasy and the man of perdtion?
But 2Thess 1-3 answers 1Thess 4:16-17 the very question they wanted to know when they day would occur. Therefore now see Daniel 9, Daniel 12, Mat 24, 1Thess and 2Thess all agree in the same time line. For even Daniel was asked when shall be the end of these things? So he is told of the abomination count 1335 days.
Now we are told this in Matthew. Matthew is New Testament books for all believers. Those who believe in Judaism does not read Matthew. . so neither do they read Revelation. Only Messianic Jews and Christians read the New Testament. The message of Mathew 24 is for both Messianic Jews and Christians alike. For the Bible says there is no difference of Jew and Gentile.
Romans 10:12
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
So if there is no longer any difference Jesus has shown us believers what is to happen. The only way to be out of here is to exclude part of Matthew 24, part of 2Thess and most of Revelation. . that would be partial teaching. But as believers we need to believe God wrote these instructions for all of us. If you believe these New Testament books only apply to Jews and not to Christians or only to Christians and not to Messianic Jews then you have divided these groups. .
We will see both the Jews and Gentiles go into the seven year trib. Because the last trumpet is also the 7th. The seventh is the day Jesus returns. The wrath of God and the resurrection will occur on the same day. The Day of the Lord. Day is singular. Not multi returns. There can not be 2 seven trumpets and 2 last days. There is only one seven and 1 last day at the end of the trib to end of this age. So if Matthew 24 and 1Thess are 2 different trumpets then one needs to create a whole new trumpet not found in Revelation. Because we know Jesus appears in the clouds only on the last trumpet number seven.
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I am glad to read that you are up and around. I'm sure that the soreness will stay with you for some time. Hopefully the worst of it is over with and nothing but the good results remain.
Because you wanted to give me your background I thought I would returned in kind. I have been a Christian since the 1950s and I have found that if you're going to rely on somebody else's commentary of the Bible you should scrutinize it, ultimately comparing it with the actual written word. The Bible does not conflict with itself. When you use the trumpet analogy you should first find out if Paul's last trumpet and John's seventh trumpet are the same. Now what if Matt 24 (a sermon for the Jews) is not addressing the rapture it is addressing the second coming? And yes we are told there will be Christians on the earth at that time. Zechariah 13:8 One third of Israel will remain faithful to Christ, part of that will be the 144,000. Is it possible that He is speaking of a second rapture for those that have endured the great tribulation (Revelation 7:14)?
I really do believe that your getting the second coming and the rapture confused. I posted verses for you that show it impossible for there to be a post tribulation rapture. I also told you that I'm divided between pre-and mid-rapture, either one being possible and conforming to the Scriptures. I do not want to restate my argument just to take up band space.
The rapture (John 14:1-3 Rev 3:10 1 Cor 15:51-54 1 Th 4:16-17) and the second coming (1 Th 5:2, 4 2 Th 2:2 ) are distinguished from each other.
Like a thief in the night!
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Hi Fat thanks for welcoming me back. I kind of feel at home here because recently I was posting on a forum with lots of members and rooms. For me it was a bit difficult to keep up with 3 or 4 major debates happening in 1 day.. Plus the endless posters answers and trying to do research in between. . I wanted to be on a less crowed board like this one. However this place still may be good to add another 4 to 7 daily posters..
But as small as our group is now things are holding up pretty well so far. I would like to get more acquainted as friends with you and other members over time. I like to know people at least on a somewhat personal level instead of always posting among strangers at the large forums.. I have felt more relaxed over here being that I don't feel anyone is pushing me against my limits. After all I like to think in ‘ A Church’ thinking aspect Body of believers such as us here.
Ok so we don’t agree on every aspect. Well neither did the Disciples when Jesus was walking on the Earth with them. . consider some of the arguments they got into. Like who is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven? Or why is Jesus talking about yeast? What bread does He speak of? So if the disciples had issues, we not being any better why not us?. Even Paul led by the Holy Spirit said.
1 Corinthians 13:12 (NKJV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
You're probably not going to like this part here I am posting on this debate.. But to me this was an eye opener to consider of. Pre trib rapture to its origin is not known. But the writing found comes from the 19th century. It is said a woman named Margaret MacDonald was one of the first in her 117 line of Bible Prophecy to depict the Rapture and second coming as 2 separate events. Because in 1611 was the making of the Kings James Bible. Therefore the early Christians of America were more in line with Post trib view as today. . For they believed Jesus was only to return once. They did not believe in a separate Rapture event later 2 or 3 centuries born in the19th century.
I find it ironic the that other dangerous teachings began about that time also. The Latter Day Saints, the Jehovah's Witness Darwin and the Theory of Evolution. . Yes the 19th century has bore a lot of dangerous modern day teaching of today. Simple once I told a Mormon fried. How can you say the truth suddenly was revealed in 18 something? Where was the truth before that?
post trib therefore goes further back in belief. Early Christians also tried to preserve our Christian heritage and practicing the Bible in ones daily life. Kids were allowed to take Bibles to school and read them out loud. And at home a young son may say Mama and Papa I have done work outside and I did my school work. Can I please go outside and play?. . The Papa says Yes my Son. You may go. But make sure you are home before sunset. And the Mother goes up to her son she grabs his coat to put it on him. She hugs her son before he goes. That was living the early Christian life with love in the family. While this is not always the case it was more likely to happen then than now. Look how family and children behave today. I therefore support and believe in more traditional Christian values and my support for Post trib which has been believe for centuries. As to what people believed in first century AD I know less about that age of people. .
I was recommended by a Church to consider more classic traditional Bible Books, concordances, and Bible commentaries. They told me much of today's 20th century and 21 has much been water down.. As I started doing this I seen why they said this.
I used to follow JV McGee a more modern day teacher. Now I was going back in the early days of Matthew Henry, Spurgeon or such those and others who Biblically to me made more sense than many of the more modern books we have today. After all Jesus did warn us of a falling away. The falling away happens later and not before. . So pretty much pre trib in my opinion is a modern day teaching.. . Perhaps to some this is or is not enough evidence to make one think. So I would also like to share this.
I’m going to use the illustration of the Heavenly body we call the moon. . One week looking outside at night time 4 days the moon can be seen. 3 days it it did not appear. Every time the Moon appears in the atmosphere counts as one appearance. If I see the moon 4 times in one week in the atmosphere I say that is 4 appearances. The 3 other days the moon did not show itself I could not count a number. Notice then only by the moon being in the atmosphere yet in space seen on Earth we counted that number as 1 appearance each time we see the moon..
In likewise let's consider Jesus on the Earth the first time. That is his first appearance with no doubt.. When Jesus ascended in the heaven the people were weeping. Then the angel said to them why is it that you weep? For the Lord will return in the same like manner as He left.. This is a promise that the way Jesus left in also the same like manner will he return. So if there was a separate Rapture several years before his second coming this would defy what the angel had said..
The angel did not say Jesus would first be gathering the people to return to Heaven and bring them years back later. . But simply as He left shall He also return. So if there is a rapture and a second coming we have to count that as 3 appearances. Because even if Jesus is in the atmosphere for a twinkling of an eye then the rapture would actually count as His second coming. The moon did not need to land on the Earth to prove its appearing. . The same holds with Jesus himself. . if Jesus can be seen even for a moment that counts as His appearing.
This is some of my understanding some thinking I have learned outside of just Bible scriptures. This is more to take in consideration. I am sorry and I apologize you probably don’t like to hear things like this I have posted here. . But remember I am not opposed or against you as a friend. . but I have been for the past 2 or 3 years working on Post trib and what I feel are the problems in Pre trib Rapture thinking.
Later or tomorrow I will share some more Bibcal aspect on Pre and Post trib comparisons of which I need to find a few scriptures I don’t have memorized at this moment.. Fat I hope this debate is not making you stressed out.. if you say Climber I have said and heard enough as I wanted to. If you should say this then I will stop this debate. . Because my intention is not to attack. I am trying to get people ready to those who are not aware of anything that is going on and those also who think we will not be here during that time..
I cant’ share this as a picnic. It's the kind of news I wish I had no responsibility. Please if only I can share good things. .Apparently though I feel if I stay silent then God will say how come you did not tell anyone about these times ahead?. So I share mostly because I feel I and others will answer to God what exactly was our calling here.. Whatever we know whatever talent God has given to each of us I don't prevent those from sharing. Even if we agree or disagree its everyone’s right to share our faith in God. Your friend RJ
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In likewise let's consider Jesus on the Earth the first time. That is his first appearance with no doubt.. When Jesus ascended in the heaven the people were weeping. Then the angel said to them why is it that you weep? For the Lord will return in the same like manner as He left.. This is a promise that the way Jesus left in also the same like manner will he return. So if there was a separate Rapture several years before his second coming this would defy what the angel had said..
Because even if Jesus is in the atmosphere for a twinkling of an eye then the rapture would actually count as His second coming.
Christ first appearance was on earth in his second appearance will be likewise.
Let's make one thing perfectly clear Christ will not return to the earth during the rapture. He is in the clouds for twinkle of the eye, that's like less than a second. That is not the second coming by any stretch of imagination. We are not talking about Jesus just touching the atmosphere during the second coming, he will set on the throne of David and rain over the earth. The rapture is from earth to heaven, but the Second Coming it is from heaven to earth.
When I was born there was no Israel and replacement theology was in full swing. This happened because people did not trust the Scriptures and they could not believe that God would allow Israel to be nonexistent for such a long period of time. God's plan is not mans plan, God put his plan in the Scriptures they are clear.
For thousands of years the Jews misunderstood the prophecies of their God. They misunderstood who the Messiah would be and his purpose for being sent to them.
Post-trib cannot stand up to scrutiny without discarding selected Scriptures to suit it's theory. These are things that the Catholics, latter-day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses and others have had to do to justify their own biblical interpretation of the Scriptures.
You still have not addressed the inconsistencies pointed out to him concerning post-trib rapture. You might feel better if you do research into those who believe in the mid-trib rapture, it is biblical and does not run and any conflicts that I can see.
Mid-tribulationalists differ from post-tribulationalists on the following points:
(1) Mid-tribulationalism affirms the clear scriptural teaching that believers will not suffer the wrath of God (Luke 21:36; Rom. 5:9; 1 Thess. 1:10, 5:9), while post-tribulationalists affirm that believers will suffer being on earth while God's wrath is poured out. While Scripture allows that believers will undergo tribulation (θλιψις) simply by virtue of being a Christian in this world (John 16:33), believers will not suffer the wrath (oργή) of God (Rom. 5:9, 1 Thess. 1:10, 5:9). The word θυμός (outburst of anger or wrath) is used nine times in the book of Revelation; in each case nonbelievers (not believers) are the object of this wrath (Rev. 14:8, 19; 15:1, 7; 16:1, 19:15). Likewise, the word oργή (settled wrath) is used of God twenty-seven times in the New Testament; in no case are believers the object of this wrath. However, of fifty-five times the word θλιψις (tribulation) is used, forty-seven times this is an experience to be endured by believers. Scripture thus draws a clear distinction between tribulation and wrath. Post-tribulationalism does not adequately account for this distinction.
(2) Mid-tribulationalism offers a better account of the scriptural division of the events of the end times in two halves than does pre-tribulationalism. Post-tribulationalists, like pre-tribulationalists, ignore or gloss over the precise language separating the signs and events of the end into two distinct periods.
(3) Mid-tribulationalism takes the rapture mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4 as a distinctive event, while post-tribulationalists view it as merely synonymous with the second coming of Christ. Since Scripture affirms that believers will not suffer the wrath of God, as explained above, the rapture is a logical necessity as well as a scriptural promise. Mid-tribulationalists would claim the promise of Revelation 3:10: "Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell upon the earth." Furthermore, Revelation 7:14 speaks of saints coming "out of the great tribulation." Both passages refer to believers coming "out of" (έκ) the trial of the great tribulation. What could these passages possibly mean, if not to suggest that believers will be taken out of this world during the outpouring of the wrath of God? Furthermore, the return of Christ in Scripture is not only for the saints but with the saints (Jude 14-15, Rev. 19:11-16). This would suggest that the saints were with Him in heaven.
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Fat-
Once you determine who the restrainer is, I think you'll come to the conclusion that it is going to be a mid-trib rapture. Either way we will not be here for the final judgement.
BB
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Fat, you say Post trib is about false religion? Well please let me share that when I used to be Pre trib Rapture that is exactly what they taught me. WPM (World Prophetic Ministries) accused Post trib of being of heretic false teaching. Because WPM said such things I had refused to even listen to no words on Post trib testimony. I did not allow Post trib a fair chance just because Tim La Hayes and others called this false teaching. .
Now I am glad I have read the Post trib view points. To me in my Biblical view Post trib makes more sense than Pre trib and mid trib Raptures. I have what I believe in my belief Biblical scripture to back up Post trib rapture.. Before you call this heresy you also accuse the Early American Christians who believed Jesus only returns once. So we were founded upon an Early Christian heretic nation?. It's funny that John Hagee suddenly wants us to take notice on Early America and suddenly adopt to a modern day Pre Trib Rapture Theology not espoused by Early Christians. . They tried to preserve the Truth. But over centuries the truthy became in many Churches watered down or what Jesus calls the apostasy the The falling away..
What does it take to believe Christians are going to leave before Jesus second coming? A Christian will need to avoid Daniel 12 to say that is no me. They will need to avoid Matt. 24: 15-31. That’s not me they say. They will need to say the last trumpet in 1Thess is not the seventh but another trumpet altogether. They will have to deny 2Thess 1-3. They will also need to avoid several chapters in Revelation.. .
So if this turns out to be a taken out of the way Gospel, it surly has leaving out much of the Bible in Prophecy. This is why I am Post Trib Rapture. There is nothing to hide.. I am able to bring Old Testament, New Testament and Revelation all at once to see the Prophetical time line that agree with one another.. If I believed in pre or mid trib I would have to walk very carefully not to slip into scriptures I would be afraid to expose.. but with Post Trib I have been able to work together with all other books and chapters in unison. The Bible after all is a collection of books yet a message as of one book to all believers..
Let's talk about some of these teachers that made the way for this early escape teaching. Hal Lindsay. He predicted back in the 80s of Jesus return. Finding out he was totally wrong. And now people are still relying on Hal Lindsay's timings of things.
2. Jack van Impe not only teaches Pre trib. He also teaches UFO's will be used by Demons flying in the Heavens making war against the Saints. Yes UFOs. I have seen his program a many number of times.
3. Tim La Hayes. I used to belong to his support ministry to donate money each month. Then suddenly they came up with a rule that only those who donate 100 dollars or more will be able to receive all the News letters. . therefore my $25 or $40 a month was not enough for them to receive all New letters. When my fiancee read this she threw out all my New letters seeing that La Hayes is more about money than anything else. They also asked for stocks and sold vehicles. I used to have these on the letters they had sent to my mail box. So I am not making this up. .
They are among 3 that has led the way for Pre trib Rapture Theology. I can't even trust these guys. How then can I trust what they have brought to the center for us to believe also?. .
People want to believe in Pre or Mid trib a way to get out of here early. It makes a person feel more safe like they have some kind of insurance plan. But we will be here till the End of the age, the End of the trib just as the Bible told us. I will share more Bible scriptures on Post trib.
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Fat, you say Post trib is about false religion? Well please let me share that when I used to be Pre trib Rapture that is exactly what they taught me. WPM (World Prophetic Ministries) accused Post trib of being of heretic false teaching. Because WPM said such things I had refused to even listen to no words on Post trib testimony. I did not allow Post trib a fair chance just because Tim La Hayes and others called this false teaching. .
Now I am glad I have read the Post trib view points. To me in my Biblical view Post trib makes more sense than Pre trib and mid trib Raptures. I have what I believe in my belief Biblical scripture to back up Post trib rapture.. Before you call this heresy you also accuse the Early American Christians who believed Jesus only returns once. So we were founded upon an Early Christian heretic nation?. It's funny that John Hagee suddenly wants us to take notice on Early America and suddenly adopt to a modern day Pre Trib Rapture Theology not espoused by Early Christians. . They tried to preserve the Truth. But over centuries the truthy became in many Churches watered down or what Jesus calls the apostasy the The falling away..
What does it take to believe Christians are going to leave before Jesus second coming? A Christian will need to avoid Daniel 12 to say that is no me. They will need to avoid Matt. 24: 15-31. That’s not me they say. They will need to say the last trumpet in 1Thess is not the seventh but another trumpet altogether. They will have to deny 2Thess 1-3. They will also need to avoid several chapters in Revelation.. .
So if this turns out to be a taken out of the way Gospel, it surly has leaving out much of the Bible in Prophecy. This is why I am Post Trib Rapture. There is nothing to hide.. I am able to bring Old Testament, New Testament and Revelation all at once to see the Prophetical time line that agree with one another.. If I believed in pre or mid trib I would have to walk very carefully not to slip into scriptures I would be afraid to expose.. but with Post Trib I have been able to work together with all other books and chapters in unison. The Bible after all is a collection of books yet a message as of one book to all believers..
Let's talk about some of these teachers that made the way for this early escape teaching. Hal Lindsay. He predicted back in the 80s of Jesus return. Finding out he was totally wrong. And now people are still relying on Hal Lindsay's timings of things.
2. Jack van Impe not only teaches Pre trib. He also teaches UFO's will be used by Demons flying in the Heavens making war against the Saints. Yes UFOs. I have seen his program a many number of times.
3. Tim La Hayes. I used to belong to his support ministry to donate money each month. Then suddenly they came up with a rule that only those who donate 100 dollars or more will be able to receive all the News letters. . therefore my $25 or $40 a month was not enough for them to receive all New letters. When my fiancee read this she threw out all my New letters seeing that La Hayes is more about money than anything else. They also asked for stocks and sold vehicles. I used to have these on the letters they had sent to my mail box. So I am not making this up. .
They are among 3 that has led the way for Pre trib Rapture Theology. I can't even trust these guys. How then can I trust what they have brought to the center for us to believe also?. .
People want to believe in Pre or Mid trib a way to get out of here early. It makes a person feel more safe like they have some kind of insurance plan. But we will be here till the End of the age, the End of the trib just as the Bible told us. I will share more Bible scriptures on Post trib.
Fat, you say Post trib is about false religion?
Do you know the deference between doctrine and religion?
Let's talk about some of these teachers that made the way for this early escape teaching. Hal Lindsay. He predicted back in the 80s of Jesus return. Finding out he was totally wrong. And now people are still relying on Hal Lindsay's timings of things.
2. Jack van Impe not only teaches Pre trib. He also teaches UFO's will be used by Demons flying in the Heavens making war against the Saints. Yes UFOs. I have seen his program a many number of times.
3. Tim La Hayes. I used to belong to his support ministry to donate money each month. Then suddenly they came up with a rule that only those who donate 100 dollars or more will be able to receive all the News letters. . therefore my $25 or $40 a month was not enough for them to receive all New letters. When my fiancee read this she threw out all my New letters seeing that La Hayes is more about money than anything else. They also asked for stocks and sold vehicles. I used to have these on the letters they had sent to my mail box. So I am not making this up. .
They are among 3 that has led the way for Pre trib Rapture Theology. I can't even trust these guys. How then can I trust what they have brought to the center for us to believe also?. .
This is a bible discussion board not a Hal Lindsay discussion board.
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People want to believe in Pre or Mid trib a way to get out of here early. It makes a person feel more safe like they have some kind of insurance plan. But we will be here till the End of the age, the End of the trib just as the Bible told us. I will share more Bible scriptures on Post trib.
I actually see that as the opposite. It is the post tribulation people that want to give themselves 3 1/2 years advance notice before the coming of Christ so that they can get their house in order. Wouldn't that be nice, you can go out and play until you know for sure when Christ is coming.
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So when is the end of the church ( gentile) age? How does it come about?
Luke 21:24
Rom 11:25
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I would like to post several end time views. I would like to title this post the Important Questions and the
Parable of the Fig Tree.
First I would like to make a brief mention that my intention of sharing Bible prophecy is helping family and friends
and fellow Christians to make one ready. So this actually means when I share it’s from heart because I do care.
Now the only reason why I mention those like Tim La Hayes is mostly because his teaching is the way I began,
For 13 years I believed pre trib and supported it 100%. About 3 ½ years ago I changed my view because now that I try to read the Bible including all verses in each chapter. The pre trib rapture view made no sense to me.
For if I listen to the Bible only and not some popular teacher it only means I want to listen to God first.
I also want to say most post trib believers I know today were also once pre trib believers. So my case isn’t unique. For it’s common for pre trib to switch over to mid trib or post trib once they see pre trib doesn’t have all the explanations.
I think what’s important in Matthew 24 the very questions that the disciples had asked Jesus. What will be the signs of the end of the age and the signs of your second appearing? Jesus didn’t say there would not be any signs. Then he mentions earthquakes, pestilences, and famines. But yet is not the end. Then kingdom will be against kingdom and nation will be against nation. These are the signs of the birth pains for even the love of many will grow cold.
Then Jesus said the Gospel shall be preached throughout the world and then shall come the end.
It’s very important to take notice at this point because in Jesus testimony all verses before the mentioning of the abomination speaks of no gathering. Jesus here is speaking in plain words because Jesus told them I have told you things plainly but to them I have told them parables. So I think it is biblically incorrect to try to squeeze in a secret rapture not mentioned at this point.
Some like to use the thief in the night but I’m going to share what the thief in the night actually means.
So the gathering is not mentioned until verses 30 and 31. We see no mention of God’s wrath at this point which may become confusing until one should realize that God often repeats himself because 30 and 31 are the very same signs spoken in the 6th seal of Revelation. The sun not giving its light also means the sun is black as sackcloth. The moon not giving its light also means the moon shall be as blood. And the heavens shaken and the stars falling to Earth means that the fig tree is blown and the figs shall fall upon the Earth. But these are stars that are actually called meteorites.
This is where it brings us to the parable of the fig tree. For some teach this has to do with the 1948 and 1967 establishment of Israel. But if we read every parable before the fig tree it all leads back to the questions that the disciples asked Jesus about the signs. So when Jesus says when you see all these things you know the time and the summer is near and at the door. The things that Jesus is talking about has nothing to do with new born Israel but only the signs of the end of the age that the summer is near so that we can understand the parable of the fig tree. So when we see the fig tree these represent the signs and that is when we will know for sure without a doubt that in those days Jesus second appearance is about to happen. But for the certain hour no one knows.
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Your time table is all messed up. You should be looking at what Christ said about when the events will happen and when we will know.
Look at Daniel 9:27, this is a seven year warming of His return for the judgement . If you're still here at that time you are in big trouble , because believers will have no warning.
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Hi Hal. Well you believe my time table is mixed up? It would be only according to what perhaps view a person is determining the timing and order of events. When will these things happen? There is not a specific date to work off of. But we do at least have the signs that Jesus told us to take watch.
The next topic I want to share is the Thief in the night. I’ll get back to Daniel 9:27. If it is believed that the Thief in the night is a secret Rapture with no signs to look for that is incorrect thinking. Do you really think God would leave his people ’Totally in the dark?’. When Jesus came the first time God used the sign of the Star of Bethlehem for the wise men to see this Star. God does not want to surprise us. For this is where the Thief in the Night comes into play. The term Thief in the Night is if a Thief is looking upon your house and you are not watching. This Thief will come at a day and hour that no persons knows.
But we must understand the Thief only surprises the one”Not Ready’. Read all sections in the bible concerning the Thief. Jesus tells ’Believers” to be Vigilant that the Thief will not come by surprise. This is verified first in Matthew 24. Now also look in the book of Revelation the Church of Sardis. This Church is warned if you don't change and you are not watching the Thief will come upon you. This warning therefore is to only those”Not watching”.
Take a look in Daniel 12:10
10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.
See the righteous will know these answers and these things. But the Wicked shall not know these things. So if a true believer is watching they will not be surprised. And why not? Because Jesus gave us the signs to watch for his second appearing..
To show this look at the Ten Virgins in Matthew 25. Five virgins had Oil in their Lamps and five only had some oil. These wise Virgins went to the Wedding supper. This is the Gathering that happens at the end of the tribulation. The Gathering does not happen before the 7 years or in the middle. That for good reasons. I will get back to that one. So now see finally the Thief in the Night is used in Revelation 16:15. That Thief in the Night Rev. 16 also occurs at the time of Armageddon as Jesus tells us in Rev.16. Yet while we see the wrath of God in this chapter. The Gathering also occurs for which they will be caught up before Jesus sends wrath in hi second coming. The Promise is they would not see the wrath of God. So when Jesus returns the Elect are gathered and then the Wrath shall be poured out on those who followed after the Beast. .
As for Daniel 9”27. I don’t see how the Abomination Antichrist is going to change the order of events concerning the second return of Jesus. The antichrist however does show we only have about 3 and a half so years left. As I said earlier Daniel 12 gives the Believers the Wisdom to count the number 1335 days. This is 3 and a half years plus and an extra number of days that will amount to the final 1335.
So now we know what to count. God has given us the wisdom. Daniel was told shut this book of words until the end of these things. Notice that Daniel is told he will not receive his reward until these days were completed and finished?. . If we should believe that Christians are going to be treated better than Daniel to receive a reward much sooner than him then once again there has been divisions between Jews and Greek of the Gentiles. But since God is one we will all receive rewards at the End of the age, the End of the Great Trib.
Listen to the messages in Revelation. Those who endure to the end will receive the crown of Life. So if anyone is taken before or in the middle that is not the End. The end means the End. If we try say the Church is gathered earlier we shorten many of the Bible Prophecies that are to be fulfilled. I understand one does not want to go into the 7 years of trouble. .
But for a reason no one completely understands God is allowing us to go into this last 7 years. Please read Corinthians 1 about our sufferings and tribulation. There is no promise in this life God will take us out of suffering and all Tribulations. But God will walk with us in the storm giving us comfort, Hope, with the strength of Jesus who is greater than the world will bring us to the end. Whether we live or whether we die the Lord is Our Lord and He will not forsake us.
You may not understand why God is allowing this. But then other things like why did God allow Satan to live over 6000 years even though His Judgment is final? Why does God allow this Satan murder Hater to test His people? Why does God allow people to be extremely sick? Why did God let 911 happen? 4000 people plus died at once. We may not have all the answers at this time why God allows these things to happen around us. But we are supposed to learn from God what is happening around us. .
I did not plan a 7 year time of trouble. I did not create Hell that some will suffer eternally. I have no power over these things. God has said which are the right and true judgments. Since I am just a Human and not God I just don't have all the answers. Rather I just believe whatever is written and take it by faith day by day.
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Not Left Behind by Dr. Robert Jeffress
Not Left Behind on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/86645780)
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Thanks for this spirited debate, I admire how well emotions were held in check
and the tone was kept respectful. One person declared that "rapture" must be
pre-trib as the rebuilding of the temple and the two witnesses would be noticed
by all and act as a warning for others to get prepared. Would not the "rapture"
itself be very noticeable and act as a warning in the same way?
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Hello Jess
After the rapture there would be no believers left. Now some will undoubtedly that they day of judgement is 7 years from that day but it would be too late to figure out the day the Church is lifted up.
Fat
🇺🇸
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Thanks for this spirited debate, I admire how well emotions were held in check
and the tone was kept respectful. One person declared that "rapture" must be
pre-trib as the rebuilding of the temple and the two witnesses would be noticed
by all and act as a warning for others to get prepared. Would not the "rapture"
itself be very noticeable and act as a warning in the same way?
Wouldn't stand to reason that if you saw the 2 witnesses you could time the rapture. But if the reapture occured first it would be a complete surprise as Christ discribed in Mat 24.
36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. 42 "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
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Hal and Fat,
It probably doesn't matter but here is my reading of Mathew 24, I understood it this way the first time I read it when I was 7-8 years old and it still seems correct today. It is such a plainly worded text that I was taken aback the first time I discussed it with another Christian and they understood it differently. The difference as near as I can tell is that people who were taught how to understand it are of the opinion that you are and people who just read it for themselves understand it as Climber and I do. I am probably damned to the lake of fire in your eyes as I also read the Bible only a couple times before I asked my Dad why everyone went to church on Sunday (the first day of the week) instead of on the seventh day of the week on the Sabbath day described in the Bible. He tried to explain the Church views but also told me that he could forgive me for my views as I was the only one of his five children who had his nose poked in the Bible all the time. I hope God is as forgiving as my Dad was.
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world¹ for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation², spoken of by Daniel the prophet², stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand²:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!³
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.4
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.5
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.6
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days7 shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven7: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.6
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.7
¹ This was not possible in 70AD, may not have been possible until our present generation.
² Seems critical that we are able to understand what the abomination of desolation (AD) is; the belief that this means “the holy place is surrounded by armies” does not work as that has happened so many times in history that it is basically a common condition. Daniel did give insight into this; the AD was or will be “set up” 1290 “days” after the daily sacrifice is taken away and possibly will be seen “standing in the holy place” 45 “days” later. (see footnote below)
³ Why?
4 Cannot be 70AD, we have seen so much worse since.
5Divine intervention to stop a man made great tribulation that could have caused no flesh to be saved? One thing is for sure at this point the “elect” are still around and not “raptured” as this will be done for their sake.
6Like a lightning bolt clear across the sky, all tribes, will see the Son of Man. No sneaking in to “rapture” the good guys; all will see this and know exactly what is happening!
7Ah yes, and now the “rapture”, or gathering of the elect. Sure appears that this is immediately after the great tribulation of those days that will be worse than anything before or after, does it not?
Footnote: Daniel 12: 10-13
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
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I also read the Bible only a couple times before I asked my Dad why everyone went to church on Sunday (the first day of the week) instead of on the seventh day of the week on the Sabbath day described in the Bible.
I don't have one of those bibles that have the words Saturday and Sunday in it. My first day of the week starts as the bible as defined in scripture as my first day of work (shall work six days and rest on the seventh keeping it Holy). If you start your work week on Sunday you should rest on Saturday, I have no problem with that. You can buy calendars that start with either day as the first day of the week, you can even make your own if you like. 8)
Next bible I buy I'll try and get one with the days named and not numbered.
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Fat,
I honestly had no idea you could buy a calendar that had the first day as Monday, I have never seen one. That is pretty cool. How about Mathew 24 though? I did some highlighting to bring out points, hope I did not make a mess of it
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world¹ for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation², spoken of by Daniel the prophet², stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand²:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!³
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.4
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.5
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.6
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days7 shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven7: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.6
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.7
¹ This was not possible in 70AD, may not have been possible until our present generation.
² Seems critical that we are able to understand what the abomination of desolation (AD) is; the belief that this means “the holy place is surrounded by armies” does not work as that has happened so many times in history that it is basically a common condition. Daniel did give insight into this; the AD was or will be “set up” 1290 “days” after the daily sacrifice is taken away and possibly will be seen “standing in the holy place” 45 “days” later. (see footnote below)
³ Why?
4 Cannot be 70AD, we have seen so much worse since.
5Divine intervention to stop a man made great tribulation that could have caused no flesh to be saved? One thing is for sure at this point the “elect” are still around and not “raptured” as this will be done for their sake.
6Like a lightning bolt clear across the sky, all tribes, will see the Son of Man. No sneaking in to “rapture” the good guys; all will see this and know exactly what is happening!
7Ah yes, and now the “rapture”, or gathering of the elect. Sure appears that this is immediately after the great tribulation of those days that will be worse than anything before or after, does it not?
Footnote: Daniel 12: 10-13
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
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Jess you have to separate the elect not yet saved and the church (elect saved). There is no biblical way to you can come up with a post-tribulation scenario without calling Christ a false prophet. If you see the two witness ascend you would know the day of the rapture to be 3 1/2 years.
Why is it that so many believe that the rapture and second coming is the same?
Mac
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Jess
Matt 24 is yet to occur.
Paul on the subject:
2 Th 2: 3 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For [that day] will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God's sanctuary, publicizing that he himself is God.
John wrote of the same man in the future:
Rev 13:14, 15 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live . 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak , and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
The gathering of the elect in vs 31 is just that. There will be a great number that will come to Christ after the rapture lead by the 144,000 spoke of in Rev 7. This is not the rapture it is the second coming, the church is already in heaven and the Marriage of the Lamb has taken place (Rev 19) before His return. How did they get there???????????
You can not use the Scriptures to come up with a post-trib rapture, it doesn't work. You can make the case for a pre or mid-trib but not a post-trib.
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Fat and macuser,
Thank you for the replies, perhaps one of you could take the time to walk me through Mathew 24 verse by verse to help me understand or at least answer the questions I pose. To macuser's question; "Why is it that so many believe that the rapture and second coming is the same? I would venture to say it is because more people are reading the bible to get their answers instead of listening to false religions and men's opinions to get them.
Listen guys, I apologize for my ignorance. I really thought this site would be an open discussion on the Bible. It now seems obvious that it is sponsored or at least populated by a specific religious sect and you would prefer to only hear what that sect believes. I assume you both to be "good Christians" who go to church every Sunday, have no issues with their display of pagan symbols, have no problem with mass prayer or being led in prayer and are very happy in your beliefs. More power to you! I must also assume that if we got into a discussion about prayer you would spend a lot of time explaining to me how it is ok to pray in public, pray in your church or be led in mass prayer. You would explain to me how badly I misunderstand what Christ meant to say about how to pray. I promise I will not waste your time by starting that discussion.
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Fat and macuser,
Thank you for the replies, perhaps one of you could take the time to walk me through Mathew 24 verse by verse to help me understand or at least answer the questions I pose.
I hope you understand that it is very dangerous to study scripture out of context. The bible does not conflict with it's self. 2 Th 2:3, 4 & Rev 13:14, 15 are also part of the answer. Don't rely on what I think, read the bible! Isn't that what you professed?
I prefer to quote the Bible instead of men because I know that it can only lead people to study the Bible and not possibly influence them to follow potentially false prophets.
assume you both to be "good Christians" who go to church every Sunday, have no issues with their display of pagan symbols, have no problem with mass prayer or being led in prayer and are very happy in your beliefs.
You make those assumptions do you, you would do better if you browsed the site before making statements like that. I have tried to show you the conflict you have caused for yourself.
2 Th 2:3, 4 & Rev 13:14, 15 are also part of the answer.
I pray that the Spirit will grant you His wisdom and your mission will result in many coming to Christ.
IHS
Fat
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Hi guys,
I'm responding to this thread as a newbie, and notice it has been more than four months since the last post was made. I would like to leave you with the following points pertaining to the subject of this thread:
Jesus ministry during His first advent was exclusively to Israel, as He made abundantly clear in Mt.15:24 and 10:5-6. The Church did not exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, according to Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, according to Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3. Which, of course, includes Jesus Olivet discourse, as recorded in Mt.24. In verses 30 and 31, He is recorded as returning in His second coming to earth. Which Jesus amplified through John, in Rev.19:14, WITH His Church, from the marriage in heaven, of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, according to Rev.19:7-8.
Paul provides us with the precise time the pre-trib rapture of the Church will take place, that reveals when the Church was called into heaven. The original translation history in 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8 is where it has been documented, before the seven year tribulation begins.
Defacto
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Hello Defacto,
2 Thess.2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
I agree, Paul tells us that we leave with the Holy Spirit. Getting close ⛪️
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Hi Fat,
It may be of interest to know how verse 3 was altered in 1611 A.D.by KJV scribes who tried to alter the meaning of the pre-trib rapture Paul was teaching. As the theme of the passage in the first verse points out. 2 Thess.2:1-8 is by no means about an apostasy of the Church.
2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].
The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.
In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.
Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].
Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.
"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.
The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In verse 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."
The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in verse 3. Immediately following that:
In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21]
Defacto.