Author Topic: Was the Church formed before the world began?  (Read 4511 times)

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Fat

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Was the Church formed before the world began?
« on: September 11, 2011, 04:24:39 PM »
Quote from: Author unknown on Titus 1:2
The passage says, "...in the hope of eternal life that God, who cannot lie, promised before time began" (Titus 1:2 HCSB). The part that interests me here is, "...promised before time began." Where did Paul, specifically, read in the Old Testament, that God had promised this salvation "before time began"? Certainly, if we were to search, we would find references, but even if not, then we could assume that this truth was revealed by the Holy Spirit. Regardless, what we learn about God here is that He cannot lie, & that He'll keep what He promised, even if the promise was made "before time began." This passage also says that God had salvation in mind "before time began," which means, it was a part of His plan "before time began." We know that the Lamb was slain "before the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8), so, there are other passages that refer to this concept. Isn't there much that's inferred from this idea that God had promised salvation "before time began"? Or, even that the Lamb was slain "before the foundation of the world"? What did God see, or plan, so that salvation would be needed in the first place? Could God have conceived a world where salvation was not needed? If the Lamb was slain before it all began, then, at least in God's mind, did the concept of physical death exist? Obviously, God knows His own standards which flow out of His character, &, He knew that His standards would be too high for us & that we would not be able to keep them & that, due to His holiness, a Lamb would need to be slain for us. In Matthew Jesus said that God knows what we need before we even ask, well, here is a case of God providing what we need before ANYTHING even exists, besides Himself, of course!


Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

Revelation 17:8 The beast you saw was alive but isn't now. And yet he will soon come up out of the bottomless pit and go to eternal destruction. And the people who belong to this world, whose names were not written in the Book of Life from before the world began, will be amazed at the reappearance of this beast who had died.

Revelation 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

Proa42

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Re: Was the Church formed before the world began?
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2012, 04:49:41 PM »
Hurray!!

The Truth will out.

So now that we know the truth, what do we do say about seeking and saving that which was lost.

And, we know that Christ is the light that lights EVERY man that comes into the world.

So, if every man has/had that light, when did he get it. Perhaps it was when his name was written in the book, or it will get to him eventually regardless of who delivers it.

Hmmmmm, there is more here than "traditional" teachings would have us believe.

If we are to believe some accepted teachings we might had expected to the Bride of The Christ to be missing pieces had we not done our jobs.  Foolish thought, isn't it?   ::)

philer

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Re: Was the Church formed before the world began?
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2012, 05:03:31 AM »
you may look at it somewhat like a movie, the script has to be written first, then comes the acting out of it. This creation is much like this,GOD spoke it into existence ,what he had planned ,now it will be fullfilled what he had planned because GOD cannot lie, thus the meaning of life isaiah 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

is there any other way to see it?.

Fat

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Re: Was the Church formed before the world began?
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2012, 09:17:24 AM »
you may look at it somewhat like a movie, the script has to be written first, then comes the acting out of it. This creation is much like this,GOD spoke it into existence ,what he had planned ,now it will be fullfilled what he had planned because GOD cannot lie, thus the meaning of life isaiah 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

is there any other way to see it?.

How a bout this?
Time was created by God for man because man is incapable of understanding eternity. For instance if eternity goes back as well as forward how long would it take to get to today if you started at the beginning of time? Well you never could get here, could you?

We see time as a line when He sees it as a spot. He is present at all times simultaneously. I know it is hard to rap our heads around that but all is possible with Him.

 ???

theseldomscene

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Re: Was the Church formed before the world began?
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2013, 01:14:10 AM »
in the parable of the wheat and the tares, Jesus lays out a clear case of not just being predestined by Him but preexisting in some form with Him. 
the farmer puts good seed in his field...then a little later on He tells the interpretation of it, here are the three that relate to the o.p.:

farmer=Jesus
seed=children of the kingdom
field=the world

which means the children were with Him before they ever came here...they were in His hands.

"He's got the little bitty babies, in His hands...."

Alexander Winslow

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Re: Was the Church formed before the world began?
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2014, 05:21:06 PM »
Was the church founded before the world began? No, but it was prophesied in Genesis 3:15 whereby due to the disobedience of Adam and Eve; God in his loving kindness due to the instigator of all this being the Covering Cherub [Satan] the primary 'seed' if the 'little flock' [Church] became an addition to God's original; plan and was therefore prophesied to bruise Satan in the head at the appointed time at the end of his thousand year reign. (Revelation 20:7-10)

Alexander

biblebuf

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Re: Was the Church formed before the world began?
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2014, 06:35:10 PM »
Was the church founded before the world began? No

How do you explain the scriptures quoted by Fat in the OP?

Other verses:

Matthew 25:34 NAS
"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4 NAS
 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself,

Defacto

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Re: Was the Church formed before the world began?
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2017, 08:41:16 AM »
The term CHURCH used in the Bible was used in place of the Greek term, EKKLESEA, from the Hebrew CONGREGATION.   The use of the term CHURCH in this thread, pertains to the ONE BODY of Christ, consisting of everyone who believes in Jesus Christ.  Being used here as the CHURCH of Jesus Christ.

The Church of Jesus Christ, was not founded, and did not exist until the Holy Spirit arrived at Pentecost, ratifying the New Covenant of Grace, recorded in Acts 2:1-3.  Jesus is the FIRSTBORN over all creation, as document5ed in Proverbs 8:22-36 and Col.1:15.  As such, His Church was predestined by God the Father, but not "founded."  Predestination, as in prophecy, for example, there are more than 300 prophecies in the Old Testament Jesus fulfilled much later, in the New Testament.  And is still being fulfilled to his day, until the "times of the Gentiles has come in, as recorded in Rom.11:25, at the rapture of he Chuch, as recoded in 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.


Defacto

Hal

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Re: Was the Church formed before the world began?
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2017, 09:05:54 AM »
The term CHURCH used in the Bible was used in place of the Greek term, EKKLESEA, from the Hebrew CONGREGATION.   The use of the term CHURCH in this thread, pertains to the ONE BODY of Christ, consisting of everyone who believes in Jesus Christ.  Being used here as the CHURCH of Jesus Christ.

The Church of Jesus Christ, was not founded, and did not exist until the Holy Spirit arrived at Pentecost, ratifying the New Covenant of Grace, recorded in Acts 2:1-3.  Jesus is the FIRSTBORN over all creation, as document5ed in Proverbs 8:22-36 and Col.1:15.  As such, His Church was predestined by God the Father, but not "founded."  Predestination, as in prophecy, for example, there are more than 300 prophecies in the Old Testament Jesus fulfilled much later, in the New Testament.  And is still being fulfilled to his day, until the "times of the Gentiles has come in, as recorded in Rom.11:25, at the rapture of he Chuch, as recoded in 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.


Defacto

Quote
The Church of Jesus Christ, was not founded, and did not exist until the Holy Spirit arrived at Pentecost, ratifying the New Covenant of Grace, recorded in Acts

 Are you saying that David and Abraham or not part of the church?

Hal


Fat

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Re: Was the Church formed before the world began?
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2017, 11:50:14 AM »
The term CHURCH used in the Bible was used in place of the Greek term, EKKLESEA, from the Hebrew CONGREGATION.   The use of the term CHURCH in this thread, pertains to the ONE BODY of Christ, consisting of everyone who believes in Jesus Christ.  Being used here as the CHURCH of Jesus Christ.

The Church of Jesus Christ, was not founded, and did not exist until the Holy Spirit arrived at Pentecost, ratifying the New Covenant of Grace, recorded in Acts 2:1-3.  Jesus is the FIRSTBORN over all creation, as document5ed in Proverbs 8:22-36 and Col.1:15.  As such, His Church was predestined by God the Father, but not "founded."  Predestination, as in prophecy, for example, there are more than 300 prophecies in the Old Testament Jesus fulfilled much later, in the New Testament.  And is still being fulfilled to his day, until the "times of the Gentiles has come in, as recorded in Rom.11:25, at the rapture of he Chuch, as recoded in 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.


Defacto

Eph. 1:4  just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

Defacto

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Re: Was the Church formed before the world began?
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2017, 09:08:08 AM »
Are you saying that David and Abraham or not part of the church?

Hal


The Church of Jesus Christ, consists exclusively of those who have believed/received Him as their Lord and Savior. This could not possibly take place until the human Jesus existed.  Nor could such a Church/Ekklesea exist until the advent of the Holy Spirit who ratified the New Covenant of Grace at Pentecost, in Acts 2:1-3.  Which is the foundation of the Church of Jesus Christ.  The pre-incarnate Jesus, who is the firstborn over all creation, recorded in Col.1:15, confirming Prov.8:22-36, is a solid fact the Church of Jesus Christ was pre-destined by God, the Father, before the world began.

David and Abraham are a part of that pre-destinaation of the Church, not the foundation of it.  Do a web search engine on it for yourself, using " when was the Church founded?"


Defacto   .

Hal

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Re: Was the Church formed before the world began?
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2017, 09:28:05 AM »

The Church of Jesus Christ, consists exclusively of those who have believed/received Him as their Lord and Savior. This could not possibly take place until the human Jesus existed.  Nor could such a Church/Ekklesea exist until the advent of the Holy Spirit who ratified the New Covenant of Grace at Pentecost, in Acts 2:1-3.  Which is the foundation of the Church of Jesus Christ.  The pre-incarnate Jesus, who is the firstborn over all creation, recorded in Col.1:15, confirming Prov.8:22-36, is a solid fact the Church of Jesus Christ was pre-destined by God, the Father, before the world began.

David and Abraham are a part of that pre-destinaation of the Church, not the foundation of it.  Do a web search engine on it for yourself, using " when was the Church founded?"


Defacto   .

Google is not my rabbi. Try searching the Bible.
My business was founded when my partner and I shook hands over a cup of coffee at a restaurant. Eph 1:4

Hal

JB Horn

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Re: Was the Church formed before the world began?
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2017, 10:17:34 AM »

The Church of Jesus Christ, consists exclusively of those who have believed/received Him as their Lord and Savior. This could not possibly take place until the human Jesus existed.  Nor could such a Church/Ekklesea exist until the advent of the Holy Spirit who ratified the New Covenant of Grace at Pentecost, in Acts 2:1-3.  Which is the foundation of the Church of Jesus Christ.  The pre-incarnate Jesus, who is the firstborn over all creation, recorded in Col.1:15, confirming Prov.8:22-36, is a solid fact the Church of Jesus Christ was pre-destined by God, the Father, before the world began.

David and Abraham are a part of that pre-destinaation of the Church, not the foundation of it.  Do a web search engine on it for yourself, using " when was the Church founded?"


Defacto   .

Church/Ekklesea

The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon

Ekklesia

 d) in a Christian sense

1 an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
2 a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake
3 those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body
4 the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
5 the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven


We know that Abraham was in heaven before the crucifixion. Luke 16:23
 
By faith Abraham was saved. And how does a man receive his faith?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

 How can the church (body of Christ or Bride of Christ) not be founded when there were already members of the church in heaven?

JB

biblebuf

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Re: Was the Church formed before the world began?
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2017, 04:32:54 PM »

The Church of Jesus Christ, consists exclusively of those who have believed/received Him as their Lord and Savior. This could not possibly take place until the human Jesus existed.  Nor could such a Church/Ekklesea exist until the advent of the Holy Spirit who ratified the New Covenant of Grace at Pentecost, in Acts 2:1-3.  Which is the foundation of the Church of Jesus Christ.  The pre-incarnate Jesus, who is the firstborn over all creation, recorded in Col.1:15, confirming Prov.8:22-36, is a solid fact the Church of Jesus Christ was pre-destined by God, the Father, before the world began.

David and Abraham are a part of that pre-destinaation of the Church, not the foundation of it.  Do a web search engine on it for yourself, using " when was the Church founded?"


Defacto   .

2 Timothy 1:9 He has saved us and called us
with a holy calling,
not according to our works,
but according to His own purpose and grace,
which was given to us in Christ Jesus
before time began.



1 Peter 1:20 He was chosen before the foundation of the world but was revealed at the end of the times for you


 Revelation 13:8 All those who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name was not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.


 Revelation 17:8  The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up from the abyss and go to destruction. Those who live on the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast that was, and is not, and will be present again.


BB

Defacto

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Re: Was the Church formed before the world began?
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2017, 07:19:16 AM »
Google is not my rabbi. Try searching the Bible.
My business was founded when my partner and I shook hands over a cup of coffee at a restaurant. Eph 1:4

Hal


And when may I ask did David and Abraham shake hands with Jesus?

For all members who think the Church of Jesus Christ, the firstborn over all creation, was "founded" by the pre-incarnate Jesus before the world began, through Abraham and David, and other OT characters, are struggling with the WRONG term.  But rather, God PREDESTINED the Church, to be FOUNDED through the pre-incarnate Spirit, He later produced through the virgin Mary, recorded in Mt.1:20 and  Lk.1:32-35.  At this time in history, the pre-incarnate Spirit, the FIRSTBORN over all creation,  became the human Jesus, recorded in Jn.1:14, for the FIRST time.  The Head and FOUNDER of His Church, recorded in Col.1:18..  His Church consists of every person who ever believed in Him.  Each and every believer receiving and baptized with the Holy Spirit, by Jesus. s recorded in Mt.3:11. 

As revealed in the above, it is clear, the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ did not take place until at Pentecost, with advent of the Holy Spirit that came through Jesus Christ, in Acts 2:1-3.  As such, it is equally clear, the Church of Jesus Christ was PRE-DESTINED before the world began, through the furstborn over all creation, the pre-incarnate Spirit who later became the human Jesus,  The Church, therefore was no founded, until the human Jesus did so.


Defacto

« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 07:33:35 AM by Defacto »