Author Topic: Do Jehovah's Witnesses claim they will judge Christ?  (Read 4812 times)

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Fat

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Do Jehovah's Witnesses claim they will judge Christ?
« on: September 22, 2014, 11:48:46 PM »

Jehovah's Witnesses claim that Michael the Archangel is Christ.

Quote from: Watchtower
God's Word nowhere indicates that there are two armies of faithful angels in heaven—one headed by Michael and one headed by Jesus—it is logical to conclude that Michael is none other than Jesus Christ in his heavenly role.
 
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/bible-teach/who-is-michael-the-archangel/

But their bible claims they will judge angels.

1 Corinthians 6:3 NWT
Do you not know that we will judge angels? Then why not matters of this life?

Jehovah's Witnesses must leave all interpretation of scripture to the Watchtower just like the Catholics must leave it to their Pope. It is one of the signs of a cult, not allowing the masses to think for themselves.

Henry

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Re: Do Jehovah's Witnesses claim they will judge Christ?
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2014, 11:37:11 PM »
They mix up Michael and Christ but that is due to having no indwelling of the Holy Spirit they do make 2 x 2 =5 somehow. Their baptism is into repentance the words being (the Father, the Son and God's Spirit appointed organization) what a mouthful that is. They believe what the scripture says that the fallen angels will be judged by men. I too am total in agreement that scripture is the word of God and accept it

…Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life? So if you have law courts dealing with matters of this life, do you appoint them as judges who are of no account in the church?… 1 Cor 6.2

« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 11:38:48 PM by Henry »

JB Horn

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Re: Do Jehovah's Witnesses claim they will judge Christ?
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2014, 12:02:20 AM »
Trouble is that they make Satan and Christ as brothers on the same level and that presents a major problem when you start making those judgements. Remember when Michael and Satan argued over the body of Moses what did Michael say? When Christ was on earth He rebuke satan's disciples directly without any ihesitation.

Henry

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Re: Do Jehovah's Witnesses claim they will judge Christ?
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2014, 12:15:39 AM »
I was answering the original title.... Do Jehovah's Witnesses claim they will judge Christ?

I don't think they do because they reason from scipture that man will judge angels but only "fallen" angels. Most of their beliefs are way out of line with scripture that they have made a "doctored" bible the New World Translation which is peppered with rubbish to back up their cultish views
« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 07:31:48 AM by Henry »

JB Horn

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Re: Do Jehovah's Witnesses claim they will judge Christ?
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2014, 10:09:48 AM »
Hi Henry
I don't believe Fat thinks JW's believe they will judge Christ but the Scriptures don't say fallen and the JW's claim the they interpret the bible literally when it suits them. For instance the refusal to admit the Cross because the Greeks had no word for cross and referred to it as a stake. The Romans used a cross and that is verifiable by history.

They will not be judging any brother of Christ and that is fact.


 John 3:16 "For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life  (HCS)

Henry

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Re: Do Jehovah's Witnesses claim they will judge Christ?
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2014, 07:30:35 AM »
Sorry, I did word it wrongly saying "fallen" angels but I used the word fallen for quickness.

I could have said
Those under judgement are the ones who have wronged, those who have not wronged are not under judgement. As a man, Jesus did no wrong so therefore he is under no judgement where all other men are under judgement because they have wronged. We do not know if that same law applies to angels, but we can presume that an unchangeable God would use the same principle throughout all of His creation.

I do agree that JW's will not judge anyone, in their state of belief they twist the scriptures and as a cult they follow a group of men who decide what they should believe to suit the current climate

kjw47

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Re: Do Jehovah's Witnesses claim they will judge Christ?
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2015, 05:48:27 PM »
Sorry, I did word it wrongly saying "fallen" angels but I used the word fallen for quickness.

I could have said
Those under judgement are the ones who have wronged, those who have not wronged are not under judgement. As a man, Jesus did no wrong so therefore he is under no judgement where all other men are under judgement because they have wronged. We do not know if that same law applies to angels, but we can presume that an unchangeable God would use the same principle throughout all of His creation.

I do agree that JW's will not judge anyone, in their state of belief they twist the scriptures and as a cult they follow a group of men who decide what they should believe to suit the current climate


Lets look at facts.

The JW,s a worldwide brotherhood united in thought( 1Cor 1:10)-in love, and peace no matter ones race or country of origin

trinity based religions= Mark 3:24-26-- a house divided will not stand. obviously not Gods house. clearly all of creation sees a disunified mass of confusion.

its clear cut who is united as one under God and his son. there is no division under God.


Fat

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Re: Do Jehovah's Witnesses claim they will judge Christ?
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2015, 08:10:23 AM »

Lets look at facts.

The JW,s a worldwide brotherhood united in thought( 1Cor 1:10)-in love, and peace no matter ones race or country of origin

trinity based religions= Mark 3:24-26-- a house divided will not stand. obviously not Gods house. clearly all of creation sees a disunified mass of confusion.

its clear cut who is united as one under God and his son. there is no division under God.

🚨 Now that post is just loaded with facts ⚠️
Who are the 144000 in the church of the Watchtower and who are the non-144000 in the Watchtower ?

Oh ye hypocrite .

kjw47

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Re: Do Jehovah's Witnesses claim they will judge Christ?
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2015, 01:08:03 PM »
🚨 Now that post is just loaded with facts ⚠️
Who are the 144000 in the church of the Watchtower and who are the non-144000 in the Watchtower ?

Oh ye hypocrite .


Do you know what you are talking about? The watchtower is a magazine. not living beings. Name calling is pretty immature.
I could show you one of the biggest hipocrosys of all time done by trinity religions.
How come not a single thing in your post had anything to do with my post? because you have 0 for an answer. My post was 100% undeniable fact.

Fat

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Re: Do Jehovah's Witnesses claim they will judge Christ?
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2015, 01:49:21 PM »

Do you know what you are talking about? The watchtower is a magazine. not living beings. Name calling is pretty immature.
I could show you one of the biggest hipocrosys of all time done by trinity religions.
How come not a single thing in your post had anything to do with my post? because you have 0 for an answer. My post was 100% undeniable fact.

You post has no facts in it and you watchtower church
Is divided more than even the Catholic Church.

All of the interpatation of your scriptures come from the watchtower organization , no deferent than the Vatican ⛪️

kjw47

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Re: Do Jehovah's Witnesses claim they will judge Christ?
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2015, 04:04:02 PM »
You post has no facts in it and you watchtower church
Is divided more than even the Catholic Church.

All of the interpatation of your scriptures come from the watchtower organization , no deferent than the Vatican ⛪️


Fact--Catholicism translated the first trinity bible--the originals were destroyed--every trinity bible is a product of that Catholicism translation--thE New world translation fixed the errors found in trinity based translations---even through the centuries other translations saw the error in John 1:1 and corrected it.
Another error is this

Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise
fact--Jesus went to Hades for 3 days, it was impossible to be in paradise on that day

correct =  truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.

Another error--- giving worship to a mortal( messiah) --obeisance is the correct usage of the greek word Proskenau for a king--worship to God--no mortal is God. Yet when they bowed to Jesus as a mortal. trinity translations erred by using worship instead of obeisance----  the two main points of a trinity teaching are error.

Fat

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Re: Do Jehovah's Witnesses claim they will judge Christ?
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2015, 04:34:00 PM »

Fact--Catholicism translated the first trinity bible--the originals were destroyed--every trinity bible is a product of that Catholicism translation--thE New world translation fixed the errors found in trinity based translations---even through the centuries other translations saw the error in John 1:1 and corrected it.
Another error is this Fact the NAS and HCS used the oldest know text for their translations (the NWT can not sat that)

Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise
fact--Jesus went to Hades for 3 days, it was impossible to be in paradise on that day You have been ask to tell us where this Hades is that Christ spent 3 days in and you have refused WHY???

correct =  truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise. Fact The old Greek did not use the comma

Another error--- giving worship to a mortal( messiah) --obeisance is the correct usage of the greek word Proskenau for a king--worship to God--no mortal is God. Yet when they bowed to Jesus as a mortal. trinity translations erred by using worship instead of obeisance----  the two main points of a trinity teaching are error. Fact, you just stated your messiah is dead, you have no salvation left.



John 1:1 has to be translated in context I am reposting this from an earlier post:
Quote
I would like to discuss a couple discrepancies in the Bible, a particular Bible. To most of you these verses would not be a discrepancy because you are the believers of the Trinity. Most of you believe that the Godhead as one being made of three entities the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. But the people that have translated this particular Bible believe that the Godhead is three separate and unequal entities. And they believe that only one of these entities is worthy of worship, that being the Father.
The Bible in question is the Jehovah's witness Bible, the NWT.

The first verses to consider Isaiah 43:18-11.


Isaiah 43:10-11
10“YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none.11I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”

Note that God says that there was no God formed before Him, And after Him there continued to be none.
This seems very easy to understand before God there was no God and after God was formed at the time of the writing of Isaiah 43 there continued to be no other God. Now here comes the discrepancy in John 1.



john 1
1In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.2This one was in [the] beginning with God.3All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.


How in John one we see someone called the Word which most of us understand this refers to Jesus Christ the Messiah. How note that the verse claims that the Word was a god. First thought would be that this God, the Word, was formed after the writing of Isaiah 43. But this cannot be because at the beginning of John one we see that the Word has been in existence from the beginning. Some say that it is referring to the beginning of eternity and others say it is referring to the beginning of time (beginning of the world). Either way no matter how it is explained this God, the Word was in existence prior to the writing of Isaiah 43.

So clearly this translation has an unexplainable inconsistency with the beliefs of the people who translated this version.
Now the believers in the Trinity and the deity of Christ read these verses and find no inconsistencies with their beliefs of one God in three forms.


kjw47

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Re: Do Jehovah's Witnesses claim they will judge Christ?
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2015, 05:02:53 AM »
John 1:1 has to be translated in context I am reposting this from an earlier post:


There is no discrepancy in John 1:1--The word is not being called--Ho Theos--just plain Theos= a small g--angels are called godlike--satan is called Theos--yet he is not in fact God.

otherwise this is the trinity teaching at John 1:1 in plain English--
In the beginning the God was, and the God was with the God and the God was God( with another God over there=HS) but we all know there is no other God but the 1=Ho Theos

Rev 3:12--trinity teaching---God has a God with another-HS God over there.

From Moses on up until this very day--they serve and taught--YHWH(Jehovah) a single being mono God= 100% fact. The God Jesus went to worship in the synagogues his first 30 years--he would never attend a place teaching a false God.

its the trinity translations that are erred from centuries ago.

Hal

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Re: Do Jehovah's Witnesses claim they will judge Christ?
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2015, 01:08:06 PM »

There is no discrepancy in John 1:1--The word is not being called--Ho Theos--just plain Theos= a small g--angels are called godlike--satan is called Theos--yet he is not in fact God.

otherwise this is the trinity teaching at John 1:1 in plain English--
In the beginning the God was, and the God was with the God and the God was God( with another God over there=HS) but we all know there is no other God but the 1=Ho Theos

Rev 3:12--trinity teaching---God has a God with another-HS God over there.

From Moses on up until this very day--they serve and taught--YHWH(Jehovah) a single being mono God= 100% fact. The God Jesus went to worship in the synagogues his first 30 years--he would never attend a place teaching a false God.

its the trinity translations that are erred from centuries ago.

Please excuse the cut n paste to address John 1 but my time is short.
Quote
The New World Translation (NWT) is defined by the Jehovah's Witnesses’ parent organization (the Watchtower Society) as "a translation of the Holy Scriptures made directly from Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek into modern-day English by a committee of anointed witnesses of Jehovah." The NWT is the anonymous work of the “New World Bible Translation Committee.” Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that the anonymity is in place so that the credit for the work will go to God. Of course, this has the added benefit of keeping the translators from any accountability for their errors and prevents real scholars from checking their academic credentials.

The New World Translation is unique in one thing – it is the first intentional, systematic effort at producing a complete version of the Bible that is edited and revised for the specific purpose of agreeing with a group's doctrine. The Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Watchtower Society realized that their beliefs contradicted Scripture. So, rather than conforming their beliefs to Scripture, they altered Scripture to agree with their beliefs. The “New World Bible Translation Committee” went through the Bible and changed any Scripture that did not agree with Jehovah’s Witness theology. This is clearly demonstrated by the fact that, as new editions of the New World Translation were published, additional changes were made to the biblical text. As biblical Christians continued to point out Scriptures that clearly argue for the deity of Christ (for example), the Watchtower Society would publish new editions of the New World Translation with those Scriptures changed. Here are some of the more prominent examples of intentional revisions:

The New World Translation renders the Greek term word staurós ("cross") as "torture stake" because Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe that Jesus was crucified on a cross. The New World Translation does not translate the Greek words sheol, hades, gehenna, and tartarus as "hell” because Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe in hell. The NWT gives the translation "presence" instead of “coming” for the Greek word parousia because Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Christ has already returned in the early 1900s. In Colossians 1:16, the NWT inserts the word “other” despite its being completely absent from the original Greek text. It does this to give the view that “all other things” were created by Christ, instead of what the text says, “all things were created by Christ.” This is to go along with their belief that Christ is a created being, which they believe because they deny the Trinity.
 The most well-known of all the New World Translation perversions is John 1:1. The original Greek text reads, “the Word was God.” The NWT renders it as “the word was a god.” This is not a matter of correct translation, but of reading one's preconceived theology into the text, rather than allowing the text to speak for itself. There is no indefinite article in Greek (in English, "a" or "an"), so any use of an indefinite article in English must be added by the translator. This is grammatically acceptable, so long as it does not change the meaning of the text.

There is a good reason why theos has no definite article in John 1:1 and why the New World Translation rendering is in error. There are three general rules we need to understand to see why.

1. In Greek, word order does not determine word usage like it does in English. In English, a sentence is structured according to word order: Subject - Verb - Object. Thus, "Harry called the dog" is not equivalent to "the dog called Harry." But in Greek, a word's function is determined by the case ending found attached to the word's root. There are two case endings for the root theo: one is -s (theos), the other is -n (theon). The -s ending normally identifies a noun as being the subject of a sentence, while the -n ending normally identifies a noun as the direct object.

2. When a noun functions as a predicate nominative (in English, a noun that follows a being verb such as "is"), its case ending must match the noun's case that it renames, so that the reader will know which noun it is defining. Therefore, theo must take the -s ending because it is renaming logos. Therefore, John 1:1 transliterates to "kai theos en ho logos." Is theos the subject, or is logos? Both have the -s ending. The answer is found in the next rule.

3. In cases where two nouns appear, and both take the same case ending, the author will often add the definite article to the word that is the subject in order to avoid confusion. John put the definite article on logos (“the Word”) instead of on theos. So, logos is the subject, and theos is the predicate nominative. In English, this results in John 1:1 being read as "and the Word was God" (instead of "and God was the word").

The most revealing evidence of the Watchtower's bias is their inconsistent translation technique. Throughout the Gospel of John, the Greek word theon occurs without a definite article. The New World Translation renders none of these as “a god.” Just three verses after John 1:1, the New World Translation translates another case of theos without the indefinite article as "God." Even more inconsistent, in John 1:18, the NWT translates the same term as both "God" and "god" in the very same sentence.

The Watchtower, therefore, has no hard textual grounds for their translation—only their own theological bias. While New World Translation defenders might succeed in showing that John 1:1 can be translated as they have done, they cannot show that it is the proper translation. Nor can they explain the fact that that the NWT does not translate the same Greek phrases elsewhere in the Gospel of John the same way. It is only the pre-conceived heretical rejection of the deity of Christ that forces the Watchtower Society to inconsistently translate the Greek text, thus allowing their error to gain some semblance of legitimacy in the minds of those ignorant of the facts.

It is only the Watchtower's pre-conceived heretical beliefs that are behind the dishonest and inconsistent translation that is the New World Translation. The New World Translation is most definitely not a valid version of God’s Word. There are minor differences among all the major English translations of the Bible. No English translation is perfect. However, while other Bible translators make minor mistakes in the rendering of the Hebrew and Greek text into English, the NWT intentionally changes the rendering of the text to conform to Jehovah’s Witness theology. The New World Translation is a perversion, not a version, of the Bible.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/New-World-Translation.html#ixzz3TGMxXz5X

But the real major problem you have in trying to understand the Trinity, is the weakness and restrictions you place on God the Father. The God that is worship by Christians is capable of being in a burning bush and at the same time being in his kingdom. God Father is also capable of eating dinner with Abraham and discussing the coming doom of Sodom, all the while setting on His throne in His kingdom. God that I worship Loves me so much that He took the form of the man and lowered Himself lower than the angels and hung himself on a tree so that I may receive eternal life.
 Apparently your god sent a created being, much like a unblemished lamb, to be sacrificed so that you may work your way to heaven.

My God is the Almighty Jehovah capable of all things's and we are incapable of knowing His full power, and I place no restriction on Him.

Sorry to but in but I could not watch this anymore.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 01:09:52 PM by Hal »

Fat

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Re: Do Jehovah's Witnesses claim they will judge Christ?
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2015, 01:18:02 PM »
Please excuse the cut n paste to address John 1 but my time is short.
But the real major problem you have in trying to understand the Trinity, is the weakness and restrictions you place on God the Father. The God that is worship by Christians is capable of being in a burning bush and at the same time being in his kingdom. God Father is also capable of eating dinner with Abraham and discussing the coming doom of Sodom, all the while setting on His throne in His kingdom. God that I worship Loves me so much that He took the form of the man and lowered Himself lower than the angels and hung himself on a tree so that I may receive eternal life.
 Apparently your god sent a created being, much like a unblemished lamb, to be sacrificed so that you may work your way to heaven.

My God is the Almighty Jehovah capable of all things's and we are incapable of knowing His full power, and I place no restriction on Him.

Sorry to but in but I could not watch this anymore.


That's OK I was going another direction anyway:

"This 'prophet' was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses . . . Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a 'prophet' of God. It is another thing to prove it" (The Watchtower, April 1, 1972, p. 197).



If the Watchtower Organization is a prophet of God, why has it made false prophecies?
1897 "Our Lord, the appointed King, is now present, since October 1874" (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 4, p. 621).
1899 " . . . the battle of the great day of God Almighty' (Revelation 16:14), which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced" (The Time Is at Hand, 1908 ed., p. 101).
1918 "Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews 11, to the condition of human perfection" (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, p. 89).
1922 "The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the Scriptures than 1914" (The Watchtower, Sept. 1, 1922, p. 262).
1923 "Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge" (The Watchtower, April 1, 1923, p. 106).
1925 "The year 1925 is here. With great expectation Christians have looked forward to this year. Many have confidently expected that all members of the body of Christ will be changed to heavenly glory during this year. This may be accomplished. It may not be. In his own due time God will accomplish his purposes concerning his people. Christians should not be so deeply concerned about what may transpire this year" (The Watchtower, January 1, 1925, p. 3).
1931 "There was a measure of disappointment on the part of Jehovah's faithful ones on earth concerning the years 1917, 1918, and 1925, which disappointment lasted for a time . . . and they also learned to quit fixing dates" (Vindication, p. 338).
1941 "Receiving the gift, the marching children clasped it to them, not a toy or plaything for idle pleasure, but the Lord's provided instrument for most effective work in the remaining months before Armageddon" (The Watchtower, Sept. 15, 1941, p. 288).
1968 "True, there have been those in times past who predicted an end to the world, even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The end did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing?.. Missing from such people were God's truths and evidence that he was using and guiding them" (Awake, Oct. 8, 1968).
1968 "Why are you looking forward to 1975?" (The Watchtower, Aug. 15, 1968, p. 494).