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A conversation With A Jehovah's Witness
admin:
A conversation With A Jehovah's Witness
Dandi:
That video was very well done, I must say. I would like to bring something to everyone's attention though...
In the Bible the phrase "great crowd" is used in different contexts. That expression's occurrence in Revelation chapter 7 verses 9 and 10 and Revelation chapter 19 verse 1 were mentioned in that video already. Also see its occurrence in Mark chapter 5 verse 24, Mark chapter 6 verse 34, Mark chapter 12 verse 37. So, obviously, every time we see the expression "great crowd" in the bible, it doesn't mean that in each place we see it, it is talking about the same great crowd.
True, the "great crowd" at Revelation chapter 19 verse 1 and 6 is referring to a great crowd in heaven. Now, in the context of Revelation chapter 7 verses 9 and 10, the great crowd was said to have come out of all nations and that they owed their salvation to the Lamb. However, the great crowd at Revelation chapter 19 verse 1, the one in heaven, is NOT described as coming out of all nations or getting salvation from the Lamb. We are talking about two different great crowds. The great crowd in Rev chapter 19 are angels in heaven. The great crowd in Rev chapter 7 are people on earth, where nations exist and where people are in need of salvation.
Speaking of the 144,000... the Bible indicates that this number will go to heaven. At Revelations chapter 14 verses 1 - 3 it says that this 144,000 are "bought from the earth" (verse 3). The great crowd at Revelation chapter 7 are not described as being bought from the earth. It says that they are standing before the throne, yes. The figure of speech, "standing before the throne", does not necessarily require being in heaven. Take a look at how that figure of speech is used at Luke chapter 21 verse 36 for example. The expression as it is used in Revelation chapter 7 and Luke chapter 21 has to do with having an approved condition, not literally and physically being in a specific location.
Regarding what was said about Jehovah's witnesses not basing their beliefs on the Bible and basing them on the words of a few men in New York... First, I'll remind of what is said about God at 1 Corinthians chapter 14 verse 33, that God is not a god of disorder. Jehovah's Witnesses are a world wide organization of orderly worshipers. For the sake of orderliness, there are those who take the lead
in ensuring the ministry is carried out around the globe and that people have the opportunity to learn from the Bible should they choose to do so. Engaging in the ministry requires the teaching of Bible truths. Great effort is taken to ensure that whatever is taught is based on the Bible. Whoever is being taught is encouraged to have a Bible, read it, and see for themselves if what they are being taught is from God's word or not. The teaching methods of Jehovah's witnesses are highly based on logical reasoning from the scriptures. Everyone is encouraged to reason for themselves from the scriptures, and discouraged from just accepting what is said to them by anyone. In other words, Jehovah's Witnesses believe that if you can't make sense of a teaching by examining God's word for yourself, then you shouldn't accept it.
admin:
--- Quote from: Dandi ---First, I'll remind of what is said about God at 1 Corinthians chapter 14 verse 33, that God is not a god of disorder. Jehovah's Witnesses are a world wide organization of orderly worshipers. For the sake of orderliness, there are those who take the lead
--- End quote ---
This is a quote from the Jehovah Witnesses bible:
Isaiah 9:6 For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. NWT (JW)
Mighty God and Eternal Father is capitalized yet they refuse to recognize Christ as God. That is not what I would call orderly worshipers.
JB Horn:
--- Quote from: Dandi ---The teaching methods of Jehovah's witnesses are highly based on logical reasoning from the scriptures. Everyone is encouraged to reason for themselves from the scriptures, and discouraged from just accepting what is said to them by anyone. In other words, Jehovah's Witnesses believe that if you can't make sense of a teaching by examining God's word for yourself, then you shouldn't accept it.
--- End quote ---
Hello Dandi
Concerning the 144,000- Revelations also teaches us that these people are all males, all Jews, all virgins and never lied. When you speak of the 144,000 are you speaking of the male Jews of Revelation 7 and 14 or are you speaking of Jehovah's witnesses?
Could you answer this for me please. Who are the ones that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is speaking of?
Revelation 7:4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. 5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, from the tribe of Gad 12,000, 6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000, from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000, from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000, 7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000, from the tribe of Levi 12,000, from the tribe of Issachar 12,000, 8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000, from the tribe of Joseph 12,000, from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.
Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.
Blessings
JB
Dandi:
--- Quote from: JB Horn on October 03, 2010, 03:09:29 pm ---Hello Dandi
Concerning the 144,000- Revelations also teaches us that these people are all males, all Jews, all virgins and never lied. When you speak of the 144,000 are you speaking of the male Jews of Revelation 7 and 14 or are you speaking of Jehovah's witnesses?
Could you answer this for me please. Who are the ones that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is speaking of?
Revelation 7:4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. 5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, from the tribe of Gad 12,000, 6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000, from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000, from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000, 7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000, from the tribe of Levi 12,000, from the tribe of Issachar 12,000, 8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000, from the tribe of Joseph 12,000, from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.
Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.
Blessings
JB
--- End quote ---
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